MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

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SidSoma
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby SidSoma » 09 Mar 2019 09:08

Y. Kanan wrote:
Thank you for the clarification. So, it seems most likely that an F-16 was not, in fact, shot down. Which shouldn't be surprising, and certainly nothing to be ashamed about. The whole point of the PAF attack was to draw our planes into an ambush; whatever aircraft Varthaman was chasing would have been running away at high speed, already had a big head start, and was no doubt employing countermeasures. A hit under those conditions would have been very lucky.


IAF has confirmed that Abhi hit an F-16. Has submitted proof to Gov. No reason to doubt that. That is something that PAF has to be ashamed about.

Y. Kanan wrote:The IAF has no doubt learned their lesson and will not be ambushed in this way again. I think we came off second-best in this little exchange, but only because the enemy was given the initiative and allowed to attack at a time and place of their own choosing. The lesson is next time we hit a camp or something, we should followup with non-stop BVR attacks on anything that moves in Paki airspace along the border. We don't let them hit us back without being under fire the entire time.


Very Very clear that IAF was not ambushed. Please to note that PAF mission was a failure. Every one including PAF have ascertained that nothing of value was hit. M21 was only shot down (lets assume UBCN is selling poison gas) because it put it self on the line and wacked an F-16. Pilot made the call for the exchange and it was willful, not because of the skill of PAF.

IAF already had an effective CAP on, at least 2 MKIs and 2 Mirages (I am sure that fighters from other sectors were not vectored in here to present gaps). They were able to sense the PAF build up (all sources say this) and were able to rally an effective deterrent force. This is not a number game as per IAF, its not important that we had only half the number. It is clear that even half the number spooked the PAF who did not dare come closer. They should be shivering as to how to BVRs were evaded. Remember we at least had 40 missiles in air and god knows how many SAMS on the ground. I think PAF did not just come off second best, they were completely routed, because 1. No military objectives were achieved (2) The complete game was controlled by IAF. We were in complete CONTROL. We knew who was coming, from where they were coming and had enough pieces in place to wall them out. Right from the time they took off, to the time they landed. Ever since we have spooked them enough, we forced them to shut down their air space for a long long time.

This exchange has provided a great amount of data for analysis on how future BVRs work. It can be deduced that unless that bogies are <30 kms (gas number), neither we can down them, nor they us. IAF has clarified that at 50 km standoff (again number is gas), we did not have firing solution. So your call for non-stop BVR is jingoistic at best. May be things change after meteor, but I am skeptical that it will change by very much. But right now we hold the aces. If I was PAF I would very much review the effectiveness of Air delivered NewClear Bums. Probably PAF would not be able to cross the LOC, or if glide bomb type, a 50-60 km range drop. Once S-400 enters the game their BMs would also be questionable. Well that is a different game.

With Abhi clearly disregarding ROE and restraint, and pulling off a Rajanikant-isk kick (ok he got shot so lets dial it down to Salman Khan-isk), has had the IAF probably scratching their heads on whether to reward him (and thus encourage further RoEs broken) or punish him (but he did shoot an F-16). They will have to give in and medal him but impart in all their trainings that RoE are not to be tampered with. He has created history with the first shoot out of an F-16 and that is something in itself. So to ppl who understand,its IAF 2 PAF 0. Using propaganda PAF has made it 1-1. IAF needs to get ahead in that game as well.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby sudeepj » 09 Mar 2019 09:52

Bishwa wrote:AVM Kapoor in the Joint Press Conference specifically said the drop tank was not of a Mig 21.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hypnYPsPh-w around 17 minutes in

It maybe best to focus on that aspect. Shivs video does that


I told you guys so! :-D I still think thats an F16 CFT.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Austin » 09 Mar 2019 10:08

Those look like proper drop tank and the other metals which are not part of drop tank being hastily put in the truck leads to the indication this is a PAF F-16.

Shiv also pointed to an important fact that the area behind the debris of drop tank was burnt , you can see the black burnt area which is a good catch , Which indicates most of the debris were already taken away before

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 09 Mar 2019 10:09

Sudeep, did that image look like a F16 drop tank, can you cross-compare?
https://youtu.be/3fIccixCTXk?t=27

This is the highest rez image i could find of the Pak (?) drop tank.
https://twitter.com/MdShafiKhatana/stat ... 96/video/1

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby anishns » 09 Mar 2019 10:27

Could it be a Bandar’s drop tank?

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 09 Mar 2019 10:41

Anish, do a comparison and post it here if you think it fits..

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Bishwa » 09 Mar 2019 10:43

Would an F16 going into a dog fight keep its drop tank or jettison them?

If it is conformal then it cannot be taken off i believe

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Bishwa » 09 Mar 2019 10:44

1
Last edited by Bishwa on 09 Mar 2019 20:25, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby sudeepj » 09 Mar 2019 11:17

Karan M wrote:Sudeep, did that image look like a F16 drop tank, can you cross-compare?
https://youtu.be/3fIccixCTXk?t=27

This is the highest rez image i could find of the Pak (?) drop tank.
https://twitter.com/MdShafiKhatana/stat ... 96/video/1


Here is another pic of perhaps a different droptank

https://imgur.com/a/W7Cisns

Karan ji, My story is that is the F16 CFT from the plane that was shot down by Abhinandana.. and I am sticking to it. :)

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Austin » 09 Mar 2019 13:20

CFT on F-16 looks something like this front view of polish F-16

Image

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby JayS » 09 Mar 2019 14:02

SidSoma wrote:
With Abhi clearly disregarding ROE and restraint, and pulling off a Rajanikant-isk kick (ok he got shot so lets dial it down to Salman Khan-isk), has had the IAF probably scratching their heads on whether to reward him (and thus encourage further RoEs broken) or punish him (but he did shoot an F-16).

Either you produce a credible and official source on what exactly the RoE was and what IAF ordered to all thr intercepting pilots or I am going yo issue you a warning.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 09 Mar 2019 14:25

^100. Second that. Enough is enough. No more arm chair quarter backing regarding a combat pilot.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby JayS » 09 Mar 2019 14:36

I want to ask those who are dhoti shivering here..

1. What do you do in a case of dispute when there is situation in which youb have to choose to trust between your family members word and some random outsider's (let alone your enemy) word..? If you tend to suspect your family member, then I have nothing to say to you.

2. If you tend to trust your own, who do you put onus of proving the truth on..? If its your own family member, i have nothing to say to you.

3. Have you all visited all PAF based and taken roll count of all F16s or have you seen Pakistanis showing photos or videos of all F16s still intact proving conclusively that India hasnt downed an F16..?

4. Do you know what exactly happened in that morining in that Aorspace, from a credible source.?

5. Do you yourself have enough knowledge to conclusively question any account that is coming out..? Do you understand what are the typical BVR tactics that pilots have to think about to first make sure they are not shot down themselves, what all technical parameters a pilot has to take care of to be sure of firing a missile and have reasonable confidence that it wont just get wasted..? what was the RoE, how far and for how long PAF jets were actually in our Air space..? What were the exact orders from IAF to the pilots, what was the GOI orders to IAF..?

6. Do you even bloody understand that every rhetoric against enemy, whether true or false, is useful in keeping paki trolls busy and by doubting Indian Govt or Air Force you are undermining your own country's position..? Why do it..? just want to show off how smartie pants you are or to satisfy your own false ego..? If you have doubts, fine. Keep p them to yourself and wait for more information to pan out. Whats the need to blurt our every idiotic thoight that is coming to your mind..? Kf you dont have patience i think you have chosen wrong field and forum to think observe and discuss about. Saas bahu serials are perfect subject for you.

7. Those who are thinking why IAF could not shoot down more planes or IAF failed, (I wont say go and fight yourself, because I know you will suck big time there given your naive thinking, I dont want idiots defending my country) , but why dont you write a detailed article to give some specific technical inputs to IAF which will help improve their tactics and flying..?

Dont put onus of your lack of knowledge and ignorance on others, especially on Govt and AFs, who are busy doing their work. The least you can do if show some unconditional support, rather that be a complete fool and help the enemy win the "perception war". Take some time and educate yourself. Everything is very accessible in todays age of information.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Cain Marko » 09 Mar 2019 15:01

That damned thing is definitely an f16 eft, not cft. I would go so far as to say that it is the underwing tank and not centerline. This image does it for me...maafi for the bakwas link

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/pakistan-f-16-discussions-2.15226/page-337

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Kakarat » 09 Mar 2019 17:18

https://twitter.com/ANI/status/1104317658457993217

Army Sources: Indian Army troops shot at a Pakistani drone along the international border in Sri Ganganagar sector (Rajasthan) as it had entered Indian airspace. This is the 3rd Pakistani drone to have been shot at by Indian forces since the 26 February IAF air strikes.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby esommuk » 09 Mar 2019 17:19

F16 drop tank
Image


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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby esommuk » 09 Mar 2019 17:23

Image

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 09 Mar 2019 17:49

So now can you find some pic of the tank with its surroundings charred etc? That would show it was not merely jettisoned.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Lalmohan » 09 Mar 2019 18:41

the video/stills (repeated on al hakimi) video looks very much like an F16 drop tank, the jagged bits of metal seen being thrown in the back of the truck look like a deformed pylon. so not jettisoned, but wrenched off/blown off/ sawn off by explosion pattern of the R73
can anyone with high res colour software compare the grey shades between PAF and IAF?

also - many have pointed out that the Mig21 drop tank has a different shape, but also, a Mig21 on intercept duty not likely to carry a drop tank... and even if it were, when it gets into the fight would have punched tanks. perhaps an experienced pilot on here can comment

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby nam » 09 Mar 2019 19:14

The mig21 wreckage seems to be in a dried place, whereas the drop tank in fairly green cover.

The shadow is quite long, so they must have picked up the stuff before 12 or even before 11.

Since the truck was already there on a road, the place where the drop tank fell is easily accessible by road. Based on the sun position the truck is parked parallel to loc, probably going south.

If we could geo locate the place we could see impact points


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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Bishwa » 09 Mar 2019 20:23

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/video/e ... 2019-03-07

This video shows the claimed spot where the Mig 21 came down... one can see the surrounding area quite clearly

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby tandav » 09 Mar 2019 20:39

Lalmohan wrote:the video/stills (repeated on al hakimi) video looks very much like an F16 drop tank, the jagged bits of metal seen being thrown in the back of the truck look like a deformed pylon. so not jettisoned, but wrenched off/blown off/ sawn off by explosion pattern of the R73
can anyone with high res colour software compare the grey shades between PAF and IAF?

also - many have pointed out that the Mig21 drop tank has a different shape, but also, a Mig21 on intercept duty not likely to carry a drop tank... and even if it were, when it gets into the fight would have punched tanks. perhaps an experienced pilot on here can comment


100% Agree it is a F-16 External Fuel Tank drop. From my side if WC Abhi in his debriefing mentioned that he saw the F-16 go down I think there is no other evidence required... everything matches up

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Bishwa » 09 Mar 2019 21:38

The Mig 21 is claimed to have come down at Horan Village. Does anyone have coordinates of it? From the Indian side the villages close to where this action happened is Bohani, sher makadi in Naushera. This video link has some details

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ci2iwpeSC_Q

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby esommuk » 09 Mar 2019 22:16

Bishwa wrote:The Mig 21 is claimed to have come down at Horan Village. Does anyone have coordinates of it? From the Indian side the villages close to where this action happened is Bohani, sher makadi in Naushera. This video link has some details

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ci2iwpeSC_Q


Horran

Latitude: 33° 13' 54.6" (33.2318°) North
Longitude: 73° 57' 23.4" (73.9565°) East

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Y. Kanan » 10 Mar 2019 03:51

Dileep wrote:Y Kanan had a "Perry Mason" moment here..

Youknow... the well known thing about Perry Mason stories? Perry Mason strikes down just one argument of the defendant, and the defendant immediately concedes and confesses everything in court.

IAF have evidence of the F16 being down. The fact that the kill is attributed to WgCo Abhi is proof. End of discussion.


Whatever makes you feel better; it doesn't matter to me because the IAF actually did fine, considering they were in reactive mode during that incident. From the way the Feb 27th attack played out, whether an F-16 was shot down that day or not, I think it was clear we could do far worse to them at will, if we wanted. The Paki leadership showed no sign of feeling emboldened after the exchange. Quite the opposite.

The way I look at it, another demonstration will likely be required in the near future, so learn the right lessons and smack them down in the next round.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Vivek K » 10 Mar 2019 04:06

IAF probably has a lot of evidence regarding the F16 use - including radar signatures. So move on. But the next smack down needs to be complete.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Rakesh » 10 Mar 2019 04:08

Y Kanan Saar, there is no doubt that a PAF F-16B/D was shot down. Now going by the images that Karan M and sudeepj have posted, it appears that it is an F-16D onlee. Just because the engine wreckage does not belong to a F-16, that does not mean that a PAF F-16 was not shot down. The IAF has said it has and thus it has. They have no reason to lie. It serves no purpose.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby nam » 10 Mar 2019 04:24

Here is the first video that came out. He says the place is Udan Kotla, which is north of where mig21 fell. Even kotli is north of the site.


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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Rakesh » 10 Mar 2019 04:56

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1103247316113252353 ---> In their desperation, some dalals are even going to the extent of disparaging Wg Cdr Abhinandan's achievement by alleging that he 'disobeyed' ground controller instructions. IMO, Wing Co Abhinandan actions were spot on given the situation & his initiative helped India scalp a PAF F-16.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Bishwa » 10 Mar 2019 05:07

nam wrote:Here is the first video that came out. He says the place is Udan Kotla, which is north of where mig21 fell. Even kotli is north of the site.


Do you have the coordinates of Udan Kotla, it is not showing up in google map/earth

The old man says 3 pilots paradropped. Keep in mind the IAF says the PAF jet crashed in laam valley

What is the name of the three places the old man mentions where pilots landed? Anyone able to decipher that part?

https://www.samaa.tv/video/2019/02/watc ... bhinandan/

This is another video... in his he seems to say one parachute went towards gode? the second fell in their village

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby NRao » 10 Mar 2019 05:22


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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Bishwa » 10 Mar 2019 05:51

Ah.. the old man said "Horran Kotla" not "Udan Kotla". Horran is the place where the India Today team video was on.

So we may be able to locate the place where the other two PAF parachutes landed. The old man gives some clues. Additionally the India Today team says WC Abhinandan landed 300 meters from where the Mig crashed.

Laam likely refers to Lam which is a town east of Jhangar in Naushera area. And so the area west of that all the way to POK is called Lam Valley.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby ramana » 10 Mar 2019 07:07

Rakesh, We are failing again and again.
First was that damn database.
Now we allow scurrilous remarks on the same pilot
May I ask why YKanan and SidSoma are still on Forum?


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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Rakesh » 10 Mar 2019 07:27

JayS wrote:
SidSoma wrote:
With Abhi clearly disregarding ROE and restraint, and pulling off a Rajanikant-isk kick (ok he got shot so lets dial it down to Salman Khan-isk), has had the IAF probably scratching their heads on whether to reward him (and thus encourage further RoEs broken) or punish him (but he did shoot an F-16).

Either you produce a credible and official source on what exactly the RoE was and what IAF ordered to all thr intercepting pilots or I am going yo issue you a warning.

Saar, he already got one warning from me. If he makes one more trolling post, he will be gone for good.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Rakesh » 10 Mar 2019 07:31

ramana wrote:Rakesh, We are failing again and again.
First was that damn database.
Now we allow scurrilous remarks on the same pilot
May I ask why YKanan and SidSoma are still on Forum?

Saar, we are turning the tide. Along the way, naysayers will always question. Just ignore them as signal noise and bash on regardless.

SidSoma is on thin ice already. Y Kanan was un-informed, but he has understood. All Izz Well :)

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Rakesh » 10 Mar 2019 07:33

ramana wrote:https://twitter.com/AmatyaKautilya/status/1104406897849970688?s=19

This is beautiful. Excellent find Ramana-ji!

Abhinandan-piloted MiG-21 Bison shot down Pak F-16; have electronic evidence: MEA
https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/a ... 2019-03-09

Ministry of External Affairs Spokesperson Raveesh Kumar, at a media briefing, said an Indian Air Force MiG-21 Bison, piloted by Wing Commander Varthaman, shot down a Pakistan Air Force F-16 fighter aircraft and there are eyewitness accounts and electronic evidence for it.

Does any one still have a doubt that the IAF did not shoot down a F-16? That too with a MiG-21 Bison!!!!

Eye Witness Account - Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman is the prime account.
Electronic Signature - Netra AEW&C

Wreckage is a secondary issue here. Believe your air force when they tell you! Come on guys! :lol:

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Rakesh » 10 Mar 2019 08:01

Wing Commander Varthaman's hemet. See the HMS for the R-73 missile. Karan Saar should be able to explain more....

Image

Image

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby vasu raya » 10 Mar 2019 08:19

Back to the Mi-17 crash, the hole in the tail boom does not seem to be due to explosion in proximity which is expected of RPGs, Manpad or even an AAM, and level penetration in the horizontal plane, its not from ground fire either. Unless its a coincidence the clinical placement of the shot where the tail rotor is rendered useless is surprising.

unrelated to the above, the Mangala dam location for the F-16 CAP gives a safe place for them to dive to the deck height avoiding terrain issues to dodge any inbound BVRs.

how likely is that there could be Mukhbirs of other countries taken out in the Balakote strike?
Last edited by vasu raya on 10 Mar 2019 08:23, edited 2 times in total.


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