MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

VikasM · Post by **VikasM** » 12 Mar 2019 12:30

samsher wrote:
tandav wrote:
How do you know this?
..
Unless...I am missing something

I thought he was just speculating. Notice the opening?
"Another theory"
I like theories. Keep'em coming. Exercises my brain a little.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 12 Mar 2019 14:27

guys, how do AAM's show up on a AWACS/AEW aircarft ?? unusual air activity over north india even now...

ryogi · Post by **ryogi** » 12 Mar 2019 15:35

Apologies if posted previously, but a really good POV of the incident from a neutral viewpoint, also extensive referencing of COPE 2004/05:

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/26 ... r-bullshit

With their Elta-8222 jamming pods fired up and wreaking havoc on the F-15C's legendarily powerful AN/APG-63 radar, combined with their already small radar and visual signature, the Bisons would come screaming in out of nowhere to within visual range of the Eagles. They would proceed to shoot the F-15s in the face with their infrared-guided R-73 missiles before blasting by. And even if the Eagles noticed the Bisons at the last moment, the Bison pilots could negate the raw performance of the hulking F-15s by employing the 'fire and forget' R-73 nearly 90 degrees of the centerline of their noses using their helmet-mounted targeting system.

To put it metaphorically, the Bison wasn't a cavalry soldier or a scout, it was a ninja.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 12 Mar 2019 15:37

ryogi wrote:Apologies if posted previously, but a really good POV of the incident from a neutral viewpoint, also extensive referencing of COPE 2004/05:

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/26 ... r-bullshit

With their Elta-8222 jamming pods fired up and wreaking havoc on the F-15C's legendarily powerful AN/APG-63 radar, combined with their already small radar and visual signature, the Bisons would come screaming in out of nowhere to within visual range of the Eagles. They would proceed to shoot the F-15s in the face with their infrared-guided R-73 missiles before blasting by. And even if the Eagles noticed the Bisons at the last moment, the Bison pilots could negate the raw performance of the hulking F-15s by employing the 'fire and forget' R-73 nearly 90 degrees of the centerline of their noses using their helmet-mounted targeting system.

To put it metaphorically, the Bison wasn't a cavalry soldier or a scout, it was a ninja.

Guys check out the under wing drop tank on the Paki F-16

nam · Post by **nam** » 12 Mar 2019 16:43

manjgu wrote:guys, how do AAM's show up on a AWACS/AEW aircarft ?? unusual air activity over north india even now...

Given enough power it may be able to pick up AAM. however the key give away would be it's speed.

Aircraft don't travel at Mach 3+. Low RCS and Mach speed = AAM/SAM.

This is the theory anyways..

Rajiv Lather · Post by **Rajiv Lather** » 12 Mar 2019 16:57

The downed Pak pilot used his pistol to defend himself... in return was shot in the leg by one of the mob... and by the time army rescued and tried to take him to the hospital, he probably bled to death

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 12 Mar 2019 17:16

Rajiv Lather wrote:The downed Pak pilot used his pistol to defend himself... in return was shot in the leg by one of the mob... and by the time army rescued and tried to take him to the hospital, he probably bled to death

Pure Speculation which I suspect or is there any source to this?

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 12 Mar 2019 17:18

^^^ originally alleged against abhi, but he didn't appear to be shot in the leg when he walked back

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 12 Mar 2019 18:21

Rajiv Lather wrote:The downed Pak pilot used his pistol to defend himself... in return was shot in the leg by one of the mob... and by the time army rescued and tried to take him to the hospital, he probably bled to death

Lalmohan wrote:^^^ originally alleged against abhi, but he didn't appear to be shot in the leg when he walked back

Good observation. His Glock 26 pistol photo published in Dawn looks loaded. He also had no leg bullet injuries

https://www.dawn.com/news/1466569

On this, Abhinandan shot a fire in the air while the boys picked up stones in their hands.

According to Mr Razzaq, the Indian pilot ran a distance of half a kilometre in backward direction while pointing his pistol towards the boys who were chasing him.

During this brisk movement, he fired some more gunshots in the air to frighten them but to no avail, he said. Then he jumped into a small pond where he took out some documents and maps from his pockets, some of which he tried to swallow and soaked others in water.

The boys kept on asking him to drop his weapon and in the meanwhile one boy shot at his leg, Mr Razzaq said.

https://in.news.yahoo.com/pakistan-with ... 09594.html

he IAF pilot underwent a medical checkup at Army's Research and Referral (R&R) hospital in the national capital a day after he was handed over to India at Attari-Wagah border by Pakistan. The scan has also shown that there is an injury in his lower spine which could have happened due to his ejection from his MiG-21 after aerial engagement with an F-16. A rib was also injured due to assault by Pakistani locals soon after he landed on ground in PoK after his plane was shot down.

No leg injuries.

https://www.dawn.com/news/1466357/in-pi ... ld-captive

nam · Post by **nam** » 12 Mar 2019 19:02

Genuine question, how do one find out if a pistol has been used? A used magazine would still look like un-used mag as the bullets push up when used.

Is there any other way to finding it out?

If the pistol was not used, then it is a big proof. Multiple reports say gun was used by a pilot.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 12 Mar 2019 19:09

nam wrote:Genuine question, how do one find out if a pistol has been used? A used magazine would still look like un-used mag as the bullets push up when used.

Is there any other way to finding it out?

If the pistol was not used, then it is a big proof. Multiple reports say gun was used by a pilot.

Chemical test on hand and gun for residue! Watched plenty of CSI type programs

nam · Post by **nam** » 12 Mar 2019 19:12

How about from a image? Like the one from above.

The only thing i can think of is that the pistol is quite clean, given it has been retrieved from a man running around, falling and escaping from a mob.

banrjeer · Post by **banrjeer** » 12 Mar 2019 19:22

Lalmohan wrote:^^^ originally alleged against abhi, but he didn't appear to be shot in the leg when he walked back

india today interviewed the POK people who found Abhi. Apparently he asked for water and a phone. He asked them if it was India and they lied. He shouted a slogan and they could not respond, so the cat was out of the bag. They chased him with stones and he fired in the air and ran towards the stream. later on someone got a rifle and shot near the wingcos leg not hitting him. The notion that the villagers are not loyal to the PA is not correct. You can hear them sloganeering as they march him down to the PA jeep.

Prashanth_R · Post by **Prashanth_R** » 12 Mar 2019 19:58

I think armed forces training played crucial role in this event.

Both IAF and PAF pilots were not sure where exactly they ejected(JLK OR POK). Indian Armed forces think 1000 times before opening fire on civilians in this case Wingco Abhi didn't tried to shoot any civilians even if he had a chance.
Where as PAF pilot being a Paki used his gun before his mind and tried to shoot people rushing towards him thinking they are Indians. In retaliation they shoot him on the spot.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 12 Mar 2019 20:04

accounts from aircrew shot down in enemy territory have a common theme - if they are found they are usually outnumbered and outgunned. a pistol is of little use and using it may only make things worse - i.e. guarantee that someone will shoot you. if you want to stay alive, your best bet is to be captured by regular forces from the other side - so you try to maximise your chances of that happening if you have no escape route. getting caught by villagers is usually highly dangerous

once captured, you have to not talk for as long as possible. that's the only incentive they have of keeping you alive

VikasM · Post by **VikasM** » 12 Mar 2019 20:27

nam wrote:Genuine question, how do one find out if a pistol has been used? A used magazine would still look like un-used mag as the bullets push up when used.

Is there any other way to finding it out?

If the pistol was not used, then it is a big proof. Multiple reports say gun was used by a pilot.

Can't think of anything but counting bullets/mag weight.
lighter note.. Prashant Bhushan to file an RTI

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 12 Mar 2019 20:38

banrjeer wrote:The notion that the villagers are not loyal to the PA is not correct. You can hear them sloganeering as they march him down to the PA jeep.

I agree. I don't think POK villagers will knowingly beat a Pakistani pilot.

Even if they did not like Pakistan (which I doubt because these Mirpuris are as pro-Pak/ anti-India as they come), they know that the retribution from the PA will be swift and brutal. Unlike in India, where the IA has both hands tied behind its back when dealing with anti-nationals, the PA has a license to kill any group of Pakistanis who oppose them, no questions asked.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 12 Mar 2019 21:21

India Aware of Identity of Pakistani F-16 Pilot Killed in Dogfight – Defence Minister
https://sputniknews.com/asia/2019031210 ... -dogfight/

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 12 Mar 2019 21:35

Rakesh wrote:
krishna_krishna wrote:Let see how much AIM-120C protects them, there will be more attacks on India after afghan theater heats up after massa departure. We need to demonstrate that now. Porkis will retaliate but are not match to what we can do to them.
Nothing is going to come out from the AIM-120C wreckage. America will make some noise, slap them on the wrist and the status quo will continue. America knew fully well against who those AIM-120Cs were going to be used against. The Taliban does not have an air force, after all. The lesson to learn is that India is on her own vis-a-viv Pakistan (and China). Whatever steps that need to be taken, will be taken by us only. America will only look out for her own interests and we should (and this Govt is) do the same. And supposedly we are America's strategic defense partner!

India Aware of Identity of Pakistani F-16 Pilot Killed in Dogfight – Defence Minister
https://sputniknews.com/asia/2019031210 ... -dogfight/

"As a matter of policy we don't publicly comment on contents of bilateral agreements, involving US defence technologies nor the communications that we have with other countries about that," Robert Palladino, the State Department's deputy spokesman, said on 5 March, when asked about details of the sale agreement, as India remained persistent in its claim that the PAF had misused the sale agreement and used an F-16 fighter jet against India.

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 12 Mar 2019 21:39

ryogi wrote:Apologies if posted previously, but a really good POV of the incident from a neutral viewpoint, also extensive referencing of COPE 2004/05:

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/26 ... r-bullshit

With their Elta-8222 jamming pods fired up and wreaking havoc on the F-15C's legendarily powerful AN/APG-63 radar, combined with their already small radar and visual signature, the Bisons would come screaming in out of nowhere to within visual range of the Eagles. They would proceed to shoot the F-15s in the face with their infrared-guided R-73 missiles before blasting by. And even if the Eagles noticed the Bisons at the last moment, the Bison pilots could negate the raw performance of the hulking F-15s by employing the 'fire and forget' R-73 nearly 90 degrees of the centerline of their noses using their helmet-mounted targeting system.

To put it metaphorically, the Bison wasn't a cavalry soldier or a scout, it was a ninja.

So basically we helped re-train and equip the USAF over the last 15 odd years ?!!

habal · Post by **habal** » 12 Mar 2019 22:02

It is our duty to send a message to these PoK villagers who took up cudgels on behalf of TSPA and assaulted our pilot. And the message should begin with a sharp pointy end flaming rearside into their villages.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 12 Mar 2019 22:38

habal wrote:It is our duty to send a message to these PoK villagers who took up cudgels on behalf of TSPA and assaulted our pilot. And the message should begin with a sharp pointy end flaming rearside into their villages.

No need for that. Our enemy are the terrorists and the Pak Army.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 12 Mar 2019 22:55

Look, they did not really "assault" the pilot. A minor tap from a rifle butt by the PA maybe, but that is nothing. Poor fellows must have mistaken him for a Paki, what to do?

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 12 Mar 2019 22:57

Austin wrote:India Aware of Identity of Pakistani F-16 Pilot Killed in Dogfight – Defence Minister
https://sputniknews.com/asia/2019031210 ... -dogfight/

O I c!! The difference between the Governments of India and USA is that GOI gets its Classified Info from UBCN via BRF (and UBCN gets it from Twitter posts both quoted on BRF and otherwise).

GOTUS gets nothing except what is on CNN/FOX

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 12 Mar 2019 23:20

I wonder if in the Indo Pak context, pilots are better off with a grenade rather than a pistol. Threaten to pull out the pin if anyone comes near.. Will keep the jihadis at bay till the enemy service gets there. Even a fake grenade, or flash-bangs will do.. I doubt anyone will dare to come in stabbing distance.

I vaguely remember reading that one russian pilot in Syria kept a grenade with him, and chose to blow himself up rather than fall into ISIS hands.

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 12 Mar 2019 23:23

Still no clarity on the parachute color. Guys, we have a POK villager saying, the pilot had a tricolor parachute. If the Mig21 ejection seat has an annular orange parachute, I think we have the smoking gun/eyewitness testimony confirming that an F16 went down.

Leonard · Post by **Leonard** » 12 Mar 2019 23:40

No matter how many -- Fake researcher's deny the F16 shoot down the

comments from a RAF pilot ..Cannot 400 % determine 'its authenticity like Besharraf ..
>>
So, Mr. Veli Pekka ‘s source is youtube video, and this idiot claims to be a researcher. I am a pilot in RAF(UK) and I can guarantee that it is a F-16 wreckage. Believing it is your own personal matter. BTW, the picture from airliners.net is not clear.

Well, if the Americans can lose about 10,000 aircrafts in Vietnam, suffer significant losses against puny Serbia, ****** up in Iraq & Afghanistan, then the Indian pilots, who are one of the best pilots in the world, alongside Israel(the other IAF), can definitely shoot down a paki F-16.
>>
From Video analysis comments section -- search bellingcat.com

Trikaal · Post by **Trikaal** » 13 Mar 2019 00:33

sudeepj wrote:I wonder if in the Indo Pak context, pilots are better off with a grenade rather than a pistol. Threaten to pull out the pin if anyone comes near.. Will keep the jihadis at bay till the enemy service gets there. Even a fake grenade, or flash-bangs will do.. I doubt anyone will dare to come in stabbing distance.

I vaguely remember reading that one russian pilot in Syria kept a grenade with him, and chose to blow himself up rather than fall into ISIS hands.

Flashbangs is a really good idea. Would help to run away too and possibly escape. Dunno why it isn't implemented. Flashbang followed by a smoke grenade and Abhi could have possibly run into the forested area. Too bollywood?

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 13 Mar 2019 00:54

Trikaal wrote:
sudeepj wrote:I wonder if in the Indo Pak context, pilots are better off with a grenade rather than a pistol. Threaten to pull out the pin if anyone comes near.. Will keep the jihadis at bay till the enemy service gets there. Even a fake grenade, or flash-bangs will do.. I doubt anyone will dare to come in stabbing distance.

I vaguely remember reading that one russian pilot in Syria kept a grenade with him, and chose to blow himself up rather than fall into ISIS hands.
Flashbangs is a really good idea. Would help to run away too and possibly escape. Dunno why it isn't implemented. Flashbang followed by a smoke grenade and Abhi could have possibly run into the forested area. Too bollywood?

Running away etc. is too bollywood, but a threat to blow yourself up along with anyone else who comes near you can work.. If surrounded by hostile civilian population. It can buy you a few minutes till the police/mil turn up.

manoj_niketa · Post by **manoj_niketa** » 13 Mar 2019 01:19

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... WJG5990ds0

Here is proof video of killed more than 200...

saip · Post by **saip** » 13 Mar 2019 01:55

Can you please add gist in English? Thanks

mmasand · Post by **mmasand** » 13 Mar 2019 02:44

manoj_niketa wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... WJG5990ds0

Here is proof video of killed more than 200...

It could very well be of previous hostilities in Waziristan/Pashtoonistan. I can't fathom the idea that PA would visit the families of teenagers and knowingly pose for the camera when all of the garnails in Pindi are doing whatever they can to cover up.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 13 Mar 2019 03:08

In recent memory, 200 banda upar gaya, hasn't happened for a pretty long time.

Ahem! Imagine the situation:
200+ Jihadis, got some "SPICE" in their lives
Got 90% roasted.
Pak Fauj roasted them a full100%
Remains get a proper visarjan in the River.

400% Kafirana turn of events hain ji !

Bishwa · Post by **Bishwa** » 13 Mar 2019 06:03

The Dawn Newspaper of Pakistan has published this article which quotes US Ambassador to Pakistan - Anne Patterson - as saying "“Pakistan’s shortfalls in training and tactics multiply India’s edge,”

Ouch...

Link https://www.dawn.com/news/1468323/deal- ... nst-india

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 13 Mar 2019 06:46

Vid is of recent vintage. .. v less no of views... weather also looks like raining ... cold like current weather

Jay · Post by **Jay** » 13 Mar 2019 08:25

mmasand wrote:
manoj_niketa wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... WJG5990ds0

Here is proof video of killed more than 200...
It could very well be of previous hostilities in Waziristan/Pashtoonistan. I can't fathom the idea that PA would visit the families of teenagers and knowingly pose for the camera when all of the garnails in Pindi are doing whatever they can to cover up.

I get the same feeling too. TSPA doesn't give shit gor the low level jihadi types. Looks like a core commnder type paying visit to PA jawans family after his time on earth was done for. Also, pakis use the word 'jihad' in a loose way. I'm not seeing much use from this video.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 13 Mar 2019 08:43

this is not crore commander..but a Major/Col rank afsar... crore commander will not sit on a charpoy !

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 13 Mar 2019 14:41

ryogi wrote:Apologies if posted previously, but a really good POV of the incident from a neutral viewpoint, also extensive referencing of COPE 2004/05:

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/26 ... r-bullshit

In all honesty I take and took umbrage at his remarks of us whining that we possibly shot down an F-16.
But I gave him a chance to prove us whineys wrong and what did I end up reading ... detailed accounts of analysis and summarisation from Bharat Rakshak reformatted and re-worded. Fine not all from BR but the Internet as well to supplement his upgrade related info.

Either way, I ended up terming at a damn good drafted and written up click bait.
remember I am only terming it so because he said that we had no proof, i expected a systematic deconstructions of the IAF claims and I got none.

Had he called the article 'Deep Analysis of Mig-21 capabailities vs F-16'
I would have hailed his article.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 13 Mar 2019 14:43

manjgu wrote:this is not crore commander..but a Major/Col rank afsar... crore commander will not sit on a charpoy !

Agreed, I think he is a Brigadier or colonel ... the rank is in the middle of his chest. Amreeki style.
Dated Video.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 13 Mar 2019 14:45

Can't these journalists use thier sources in the Defense ministry to find the name of the pilot , squadron and put in a tweet, something like Shahbaz Haider , No 19 Squadron etc.