MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

SidSoma · Post by **SidSoma** » 14 Mar 2019 01:48

Singha wrote:despite all the claims did JF17 ever get the selex RC400 radar?

wiki has it using a neutered KLJ-7 radar. that radar and SD-10 wont compare well with the APG68v9 + Amraam C5 .... its not even sure if the redoubable SD10 is on the JF17 at all. are there pix?

Not one single source claiming that Selex or Thales RC 400 were integrated, only them being selected. More likely the KLJ-7 and may be later KLJ-7A

There are some 'top gun' ish SD-10 integrated JF-17 videos on UTube, but that is to be taken with some salt.

The SD-10 itself seems to be based on the R-77, may be the Evil Yindoos are busy finguring it out

esommuk · Post by **esommuk** » 14 Mar 2019 01:57

Interestingly Romanian Air Force operates both upgraded Mig 21 Lancers and F16s. The Migs have glass cockpit upgraded by Israel

nam · Post by **nam** » 14 Mar 2019 03:05

Singha wrote:despite all the claims did JF17 ever get the selex RC400 radar?

wiki has it using a neutered KLJ-7 radar. that radar and SD-10 wont compare well with the APG68v9 + Amraam C5 .... its not even sure if the redoubable SD10 is on the JF17 at all. are there pix?

There are no videos of JF17 firing the SD10. It's ldp is not good enough, so they are going with Turkish ldp. I don't think it has been integrated with H4 A2G.

So fundamentally air defence role with CCM.

That is why F16 for LGB and Mirage for Raptor was used. The JF17 was staying behind the scene providing "top cover". Ready to be first in the queue while running off.

Bishwa · Post by **Bishwa** » 14 Mar 2019 09:23

Is Haider Shahbaz Ali a Shia name..?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 14 Mar 2019 09:30

But no BVR. Bisons can deploy R27, R77.

esommuk wrote:Interestingly Romanian Air Force operates both upgraded Mig 21 Lancers and F16s. The Migs have glass cockpit upgraded by Israel

habal · Post by **habal** » 14 Mar 2019 09:30

both Haider & Ali are usually names sported by shii.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 14 Mar 2019 09:32

India sabotaged the French deal for its JF-17 upgrade. The Mirage 2000 upgrade, the Scorpene deal et al were the carrot. SD10 qualification on JF17 in PAF service happened recently., just a yr or so back

Singha wrote:despite all the claims did JF17 ever get the selex RC400 radar?

wiki has it using a neutered KLJ-7 radar. that radar and SD-10 wont compare well with the APG68v9 + Amraam C5 .... its not even sure if the redoubable SD10 is on the JF17 at all. are there pix?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 14 Mar 2019 09:37

Aselsan pods were purchased.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailys ... kistan/amp

You dont need LD Pods for H2/H4, they fly out under InS guidance, take GPS update and either get independent lock on via EO seeker ( laser seeker is an option) or have to be manually guided into specific targets by back seat WSO in Mirage 3, 2-seater. No mention of sophisticated DSMAC as on Spice as far as I remember, so accurate fire and forget is dodgy.

nam wrote:
Singha wrote:despite all the claims did JF17 ever get the selex RC400 radar?

wiki has it using a neutered KLJ-7 radar. that radar and SD-10 wont compare well with the APG68v9 + Amraam C5 .... its not even sure if the redoubable SD10 is on the JF17 at all. are there pix?
There are no videos of JF17 firing the SD10. It's ldp is not good enough, so they are going with Turkish ldp. I don't think it has been integrated with H4 A2G.

So fundamentally air defence role with CCM.

That is why F16 for LGB and Mirage for Raptor was used. The JF17 was staying behind the scene providing "top cover". Ready to be first in the queue while running off.

Bishwa · Post by **Bishwa** » 14 Mar 2019 09:51

habal wrote:both Haider & Ali are usually names sported by shia.

So the NLI who were not acknowledged in Kargil were Shia

and if the reports of the shot down pilot being WC Haider Shahbaz Ali is true, it will mean again a Shia was not acknowledged

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 14 Mar 2019 10:02

Some reports indicate Haider Shahbaz Ali is in training at Maxwell AFB, AL in the US.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 14 Mar 2019 10:08

Mort you would read that on F16.net. It is Paki who does not know but trying to discredit the Indian claim. If he is in the I am sure there must be some public document regarding the training. Let's wait a month the truth will come out.

habal · Post by **habal** » 14 Mar 2019 10:16

At first a paki called Khalid Umar based in London gives a similar sounding name as Haider Aitzaz Ud din and sends folks on wild goose chase.

Now another paki on f16.net says haider shahbaz ali is in US for training. This guy is a commanding officer of the 'tip of the spear' f16 squadron based out of their top air base and he is in absentia during a major crises. This is as believable as the first tweet to obfuscate the name.

waiting for next story.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 14 Mar 2019 10:52

Aditya_V wrote:Mort you would read that on F16.net. It is Paki who does not know but trying to discredit the Indian claim. If he is in the I am sure there must be some public document regarding the training. Let's wait a month the truth will come out.

Yes, we'll wait until something comes out. Neither of these clowns have been seen, so let's see what happens.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 14 Mar 2019 13:23

COs and Flight commanders have often been known to lead from trainers and form up with Army Air Traffic Controllers to manage battle field Ops.
I have no doubt believing that the CO of the squadron was in the trainer.

Lets see when he gets paraded around upon his return. I doubt one pilot will be asked to come back from the course to make a difference but then I have another questions to ask, why the CO was on a course which is likely to be technical in nature.

Sridhar K · Post by **Sridhar K** » 14 Mar 2019 14:38

Yesterday was watching Vijeta movie on my flight from ccu to mas. There is a scene where an Indian pilot get shot down overRJ and the crowd about to beat him to death thinking he is a Paki. Depsite his explanation, the local villagers don't beliy him. He uses his guns to scare and IAF SAR arrives on time to save him. Not very different from what happened to the Paki pilots.

There is also one passing character that appears with a Abhinandan moustache. Lot of mig 21 in action and just can't prevent myself from relating things in the movie to recent events

nam · Post by **nam** » 14 Mar 2019 15:11

Karan M wrote:Aselsan pods were purchased.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailys ... kistan/amp

You dont need LD Pods for H2/H4, they fly out under InS guidance, take GPS update and either get independent lock on via EO seeker ( laser seeker is an option) or have to be manually guided into specific targets by back seat WSO in Mirage 3, 2-seater. No mention of sophisticated DSMAC as on Spice as far as I remember, so accurate fire and forget is dodgy.

Not for H4, however without a proper LDP, the job to hit IA targets using LGB was given to the F16. One of which got hit by us, probably while lasing the target!

Instead of F16, our Mig21 would have shot down a JF17, if it's LDP was working.

All in all, F16 is the only true MRCA PAF has. JF17 is no where ready with A2G. Compare this to what we hear from IAF about LCA, how it has all the A2G mode request, which no other aircraft in it's inventory, ever achieved on induction.

Looks like the JF17 just carried out a SDB test, to fill up the gaps.

https://twitter.com/joe_sameer/status/1 ... 2604048384

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 14 Mar 2019 16:03

Just reading this report , read the passages this clearly indicates it was not Abinandhan but a Pakistani pilot as mentioned here by other posters

https://www.telegraphindia.com/india/tr ... id/1685968

Abhinandan’s first question on landing was whether he was in India, Chaudhry said, disclosing that the pilot was pelted with stones and also shot in the leg while trying to flee.

“My objective was to capture the pilot alive. I had seen the Indian flag on his parachute and knew he was Indian,” Chaudhry was quoted as saying.

THis does not seem like the Orange and white Mig parachute but the Orange, White and Green Nato Aces Parachute.

According to the 58-year-old eyewitness, the pilot asked if he was in India and some of the villagers tricked him with an affirmative response, after which he raised patriotic slogans.

Where they Indian or Pakistani slogans, more like Pakistani slogans

Abhinandan then pulled out his gun and fired in the air to intimidate them. The move led to more hostility and the villagers began throwing stones at the pilot who by then was on the run.

“The boys chased him until he fell into a stream and one of my nephews who was also armed shot him in the leg,” Chaudhry said.

ABhinandan was not shot in the leg

Now that it has been confirmed by the defense minister the Pakistani pilot died in Hospital, this is what had occurred.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 14 Mar 2019 16:06

As Singha mentioned, bleeding in the leg could have led to his death.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 14 Mar 2019 16:35

Orange, White and Green

I would have thought the same: INDIAN FLAG! How can a real Pakistani fly with anything other than a Green parachute?

he raised patriotic slogans.

Like..

Jai Bangalore! Jai Kerala!

Singhaji, as they say: "Bhat UBCN reborts todin, guvrmands conphirm 2 weeks from now"

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 14 Mar 2019 16:51

nam wrote:Looks like the JF17 just carried out a SDB test, to fill up the gaps.

https://twitter.com/joe_sameer/status/1 ... 2604048384

Looks like grade A propaganda - the video is so blurred that calling it a proof of a test would be a joke.
They are desparately trying to stiffen up morale vis a vis India having the SPICE etc.

ISPR/PAF seem to be a propaganda factory.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 14 Mar 2019 16:54

nam wrote:Not for H4, however without a proper LDP, the job to hit IA targets using LGB was given to the F16. One of which got hit by us, probably while lasing the target! Instead of F16, our Mig21 would have shot down a JF17, if it's LDP was working.

Logical. If the JF-17 has so many A2G munitions inducted, why didn't they strike us with GPS guided units? AVM Subramaniam has the likely answer, Mirages drove them off. Even so, the glide units with GPS/INS could have been fired..

All in all, F16 is the only true MRCA PAF has. JF17 is no where ready with A2G. Compare this to what we hear from IAF about LCA, how it has all the A2G mode request, which no other aircraft in it's inventory, ever achieved on induction.

I wonder how much of the stuff the JF-17 claims it has, is actually operational on the plane.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 14 Mar 2019 20:20

i hope we get some leaked tidbits from WgCo Abhi debrief ( which some newspapers reported as being completed today)... thoda clarity aayega.

Hari Nair · Post by **Hari Nair** » 14 Mar 2019 21:32

manjgu wrote:i hope we get some leaked tidbits from WgCo Abhi debrief ( which some newspapers reported as being completed today)... thoda clarity aayega.

Request elucidate...Clarity in which aspect of the narrative, Dude? I am rather surprised that the "narrative" needs more "clarity"...

The last I do remember that its not exactly a Soap Opera episode, right?

Shivaji · Post by **Shivaji** » 14 Mar 2019 21:40

Sirs, below tweet was the first to indicate one Wing Commander Faheem as leading PAF attack team. Squadron Leader Hassan Siddiqui that tried to attack WC Abhinandan was part of his team per below tweet (first to mention that around 1:30 pm on 27th Feb).

https://mobile.twitter.com/hamzashafqaa ... 6881476610

Are we giving credence to downing of Shahbaz Haider Ali because of his Sikh like beard / looks or I have missed other source? I first saw him referred in Habal sir's post but no other source linking him to PAF attack.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 14 Mar 2019 21:44

Then Pakis are themselves stating Sq 19 Sherdils operating F-16's took -part?

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 14 Mar 2019 21:54

The parachute colors are an important give away.. We have multiple people stating that they saw the 'Indian tricolor' on the parachute of 'the Indian pilot', but all the pictures of the Russian parachute on the Km1M ejection seats in the Mig 21 I have seen have an annular orange band on a white parachute. The 'tricolor' parachute is seen with Nato type ejection seats.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 15 Mar 2019 00:38

A natural mistake. Pakistani parachutes would be expected to have a color scheme like this

BTW, WTH are those decorations?

Look suspiciously yindoo, specifically TN, to me. But caption is "Pakistani (parachutes) in Islamabad"

Ardeshir · Post by **Ardeshir** » 15 Mar 2019 00:40

Seems inspired by this: https://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media ... undram.jpg

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 15 Mar 2019 00:40

Karan M wrote: ISPR/PAF seem to be a propaganda factory.

U know ISPR HQ is located inside Pindi Cantonment? What else do u expect?
(I was looking for some good target coordinates..)

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 15 Mar 2019 01:59

Yeah propaganda central, pindi chana generators extraordinaire..

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 15 Mar 2019 03:19

Shivaji wrote:Sirs, below tweet was the first to indicate one Wing Commander Faheem as leading PAF attack team. Squadron Leader Hassan Siddiqui that tried to attack WC Abhinandan was part of his team per below tweet (first to mention that around 1:30 pm on 27th Feb).

https://mobile.twitter.com/hamzashafqaa ... 6881476610

There is picture posted of the 3 that has been circulating for a while claiming to be the people who shot down 2 IAF planes.

The person in the center has a red F-16 patch. So even their own propaganda is tripping over itself trying to prove how great they are.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 15 Mar 2019 08:19

Good that this dhaga has stopped getting filled with the Doubting Dhoti-Shiverers and dropped down.

Auf Wieder GeFallen!

as they say in the Austrian Alps before going skiing.
Note that no one has questioned our certainty that the Pakis ejected BEFORE the R73 hit their plane.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 15 Mar 2019 10:36

Karan M wrote:
nam wrote:Looks like the JF17 just carried out a SDB test, to fill up the gaps.

https://twitter.com/joe_sameer/status/1 ... 2604048384
Looks like grade A propaganda - the video is so blurred that calling it a proof of a test would be a joke.
They are desparately trying to stiffen up morale vis a vis India having the SPICE etc.

ISPR/PAF seem to be a propaganda factory.

I had posted this in the Pakistani Armed Forces thread long back. Reiterating it as public memory is short. The Pakistani Tehreek-e-Taliban had hit one of their F-16 Block 52 with MANPADS that discarded its drop tanks and fled home. Since then they are using JF-17 as bomb mules to drop their LGB's while F-16's lase the target with Sniper pods at standoff range.

JF-17 has NO LDP with either laser rangefinder or designator to accurately drop unguided/guided bombs itself. Despite Chinese display of pods, they dont have a workable system. The US refused to qualify Sniper pod. Pakistanis couldnt afford Thales Damocles pod. So JF-17 has zero LGB capability other than as mules for F-16s.

The next guided bomb - JDAM - requires INS calibration from parent aircraft before its dropped. The only aircraft with that capability is F-16. The US refused to qualify JDAM on JF-17

The US never sold SDB to Pakistan. But that too requires INS calibration from parent aircraft before its dropped.

So unless its some Chinese knockoff, WTF is the JF-17 dropping?

And with these very well established facts, lets stop the dhoti shivering on JF-17. As per my understanding, the Rajouri strikes were carried out by F-16s and Mirage 3/5 that is the only aircraft qualified to carry South African H-4 weapon. The JF-17s were used as decoys and did aggressive posturing to draw out Su-30s and Mirage-2000s. The Pakistanis are just trying to build up mythical capabilities of the JF-17.

Request Rakesh and Karan to post the lack of JF-17 capabilities either in the Pakistani Military Thread or here, so that members dont get carried away by fake videos.

negi · Post by **negi** » 15 Mar 2019 11:04

Aditya_V wrote:As Singha mentioned, bleeding in the leg could have led to his death.

yeah post ejection faced with angry crowd, high adrenaline , heart pumping at a high rate and a busted main artery in the leg , add considerable distance between the place and nearby clinic and one can be staring at death in no time.

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 15 Mar 2019 11:21

The PAF F-16s fired AMRAAM missiles that the IAF was able to dodge without losses. Mig-21s were able to close to R-73 ranges and bring one down. I think this should put the mythology of the AMRAAM to rest for the dhoti-shiverers on our side, no?

I can only wonder about the morale impact of this one incident in the PAF pilot ready-rooms and that in the IAF ready-rooms (especially those units flying the older Mig variants).

The air-to-air equations have fundamentally changed in the subcontinent.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 Mar 2019 12:08

^ hence the desperate search parties out looking for PL-15 now

the JF17 is vulnerable on many fronts...and lags the MLU F16 by a long long way.

Paks must be hoping and praying that turkey, norway quickly inducts the JSF and starts shedding F-16 which they can pick up on the cheap. turkiye has a huge fleet of F16

Vikas · Post by **Vikas** » 15 Mar 2019 12:12

A PAF pilot on active duty, fighting the enemy was beaten to death by those ingrates in POK. How come PA hasn't bulldozed the villages and villagers with JCB and LMG's yet.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 15 Mar 2019 12:17

Singha wrote:^ hence the desperate search parties out looking for PL-15 now

the JF17 is vulnerable on many fronts...and lags the MLU F16 by a long long way.

Paks must be hoping and praying that turkey, norway quickly inducts the JSF and starts shedding F-16 which they can pick up on the cheap. turkiye has a huge fleet of F16

If turkey needs to induct F-35 and shed F-16, it needs to cancel S-400 deal.

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 15 Mar 2019 18:05

Turkey or any other country cannot transfer the old F16's to pakistan unless approved by USA.That is not going to happen so easily.

nam · Post by **nam** » 15 Mar 2019 18:07

I doubt Turkey will retire F16s. The first ones to go will be F4, once the F35 comes.

Ofcourse Pak is still holding the dream of getting F16s. If we don't choose one of 21 or 18, it is given Pak will get F16.

After the air battle, PAF will be desperate to get more F16 and the sensor kit that comes with it.

JF17 radar does not have enough range to PL15(provided is operational with PLAAF) kind of ramjet BVR