MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Ankit Desai
BRFite
Posts: 502
Joined: 05 May 2006 21:28
Location: Gujarat

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Ankit Desai » 16 Mar 2019 21:56


ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 53478
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby ramana » 17 Mar 2019 07:57

Prem Kumar wrote:Why do short range AAMs have to be IIR? Any reason why a radar seeker won't work?


Prem, Astra minimum range is 20 km.
IIR seeker is much cheaper than radar seeker.

Already IIR for Nag is there. So shortened Astra motor with IIR and datalink would be a quick product development.

Next iteration could have cooled seeker.

DRDO has a good systems analysis book. Would be nice to read it.

joygoswami
BRFite
Posts: 522
Joined: 11 May 2010 19:08
Location: Destination Moon For 5yrs with Zaid Hamid

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby joygoswami » 17 Mar 2019 09:20

This picture got swept under the rubble. This was one of the first that came out, I am damn sure there was a video of it too, but it got removed from Paki forums almost immediately. Image

Rishi
Forum Moderator
Posts: 742
Joined: 29 Sep 2002 11:31
Location: Maximum City

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Rishi » 17 Mar 2019 09:31



ABP news interview with Sarpanch of Bhawani B section Naushera (Sehr Makri village). Gives details of where Pak jets came from and was shot down.

Can anyone geolocate this place?

Edit:

Image

Left is where the MiG debris fell in Horran. Right is approx location of Khamba/Sehr Makri at Naushera on the LoC (near Laam Valley). So the Indian villagers did not see the MiG go down (40 km away).

However, how was the MiG so far west of the F16 it hit?

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Singha » 17 Mar 2019 09:37

>> Astra minimum range is 20 km.

I really doubt that. people are using amraams on wingtips as a close defence weapon.
if the launch a.c and onboard radar can go live in seconds, why should there be a minimum range.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 53478
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby ramana » 17 Mar 2019 10:29

Maybe due to kinematics, sensor warm up time.
The Astra wiki page gives that number.

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11330
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 17 Mar 2019 10:30

Astra no escape zone is 20km, launcher aircraft at 200kts, 200 ft altitude fired at a high altitude above mach 1 target in tail chase scenario. Minimum engagement ranges will be less than 1km, but in a turning dogfight close combat ir/iir seeker based missiles will be more useful than radar seeker azimuth limited missiles. Plus jamming IIR missiles in much tougher in these close combat situations

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Singha » 17 Mar 2019 10:50

makes sense Aditya

tandav
BRFite
Posts: 451
Joined: 26 Aug 2016 08:24

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby tandav » 17 Mar 2019 10:53

Image

Folks! High probability pic of the pilot of the F-16 that was shot down....

Partly hidden behind WC Abhi there is a bearded person in what appears to be a flight suit who has his hands up in the air (this is WC Shahbaz Ali Squadron 19 Sherdils I presume though name may be FUD). There is a helmeted Pakistan Army soldier who is probably field interrogating the downed PAF pilot thinking he is another IAF pilot (note that this gentleman had landed in a tricolor parachute).

The PA dudes probably decided to take WC Abhi to meet his fellow captive "IAF" pilot. The information of this tremendous achievement of PAF was passed up the Chain of Command to PA spokesperson who promptly announced it. I have a sneaky feeling that WC Abhi may have had his wits around him and identified the dude as an IAF pilot to the admiring PA folks and much to the chagrin of the PAF pilot vehemently denying this... and getting the shit kicked out of him to discover the truth.

Rishi
Forum Moderator
Posts: 742
Joined: 29 Sep 2002 11:31
Location: Maximum City

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Rishi » 17 Mar 2019 10:56

tandav wrote:Image

Folks! High probability pic of the pilot of the F-16 that was shot down....

Partly hidden behind WC Abhi there is a bearded person in what appears to be a flight suit who has his hands up in the air (this is WC Shahbaz Ali Squadron 19 Sherdils I presume though name may be FUD). There is a helmeted Pakistan Army soldier who is probably field interrogating the downed PAF pilot thinking he is another IAF pilot (note that this gentleman had landed in a tricolor parachute).

The PA dudes probably decided to take WC Abhi to meet his fellow captive "IAF" pilot. The information of this tremendous achievement of PAF was passed up the Chain of Command to PA spokesperson who promptly announced it. I have a sneaky feeling that WC Abhi may have had his wits around him and identified the dude as an IAF pilot to the admiring PA folks and much to the chagrin of the PAF pilot vehemently denying this... and getting the shit kicked out of him to discover the truth.


That is very unlikely.... Other folks around there also doing naaras

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Singha » 17 Mar 2019 10:56

:) well he does bear the look of a prisoner and has a sikhish beard.
the helmet soldier is clearly moving in to search him for weapons.
ie he too is a prisoner.

VikasM
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 27
Joined: 23 Sep 2016 12:12

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby VikasM » 17 Mar 2019 11:15

Do this exercise. Imagine yourself in the midst of a crowd particularly noisy one. Raise your hands as a call sign from within the crowd to someone far away. You'd raise your hand straight up to reach highest point. Your thumb in all likelihood be curled up inside helping your fingers reach higher.
Now do the raised arm gesture for surrender. Even inadvertent, your fingers would be all spread wide and arms spread out too, exposing most of your body to exude vulnerability. Classic surrender pose.

I'm no expert but that's just psyci 101. To me, he's just drawing someone's attention.

manjgu
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2137
Joined: 11 Aug 2006 10:33

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby manjgu » 17 Mar 2019 11:27

unlikely 2 pilots will land almost at same spot??

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11330
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 17 Mar 2019 11:31

manjgu wrote:unlikely 2 pilots will land almost at same spot??


But he looks amazingly similair to Shahbaz Haider of PAF

Image

Kashi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3620
Joined: 06 May 2011 13:53

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Kashi » 17 Mar 2019 11:36

But wouldn't Bakis be able to quickly identify if a man was theirs or not. He would have papers, IDs, a mobile phone with Baki SIM card and numbers and most importantly the flight suit would have his name, flag (possibly) or PAF insignia somwehere.

How would so many Bakis fail to spot any of these signs, unless the pilot was flying with none of these, expecting to be shot down over India and hoping to make it back anonymously or melt into the local population.

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11330
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 17 Mar 2019 11:43

See boss for ordinary people, see a person coming with a parachute with green white and orange, they might have mistaken him for Indian pilot, remember almost all probably cant read English there. By the time the PA got it post ejection he was serious enough to go to Hospital.

Probably they were caught in the same village and brought together to be loaded into a PA jeep.

AdityaM
BRFite
Posts: 1930
Joined: 30 Sep 2002 11:31
Location: New Delhi

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby AdityaM » 17 Mar 2019 11:44

We overimagine so much here :)

That man is raising his hands while shouting slogans. Just like another guy to the left with his clenched fist

manjgu
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2137
Joined: 11 Aug 2006 10:33

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby manjgu » 17 Mar 2019 12:15

kashi..not necessarily. a pilot does not carry papers, id , mob phone on a sortie in a war situation. even the uniform does not really tell anything except the name. if u see uniforms of Abhi and Shabaz ..they look almost similar. actually they would have found some indian currency on the paki pilot ... picture is not conclusive though it does not look like nara baazi or trying to grab someones attention. But yes, the man looks v similar to the paki pilot Shahbaz. but both pilots landing at almost the same spot seems a bit too much...

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11330
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 17 Mar 2019 12:33

if that picture is indeed of Shahbaz Haidar, then Abhinandan would have known what happened to the Paksitani pilot, Pakis were lucky both pilots and aircraft fell a few km on their side.

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11330
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 17 Mar 2019 12:35

joygoswami wrote:This picture got swept under the rubble. This was one of the first that came out, I am damn sure there was a video of it too, but it got removed from Paki forums almost immediately. Image


This was probably photographed on the Indian side and video was on republicworld etc, for some reason that video has been taken down

Kashi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3620
Joined: 06 May 2011 13:53

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Kashi » 17 Mar 2019 12:45

manjgu wrote:kashi..not necessarily. a pilot does not carry papers, id , mob phone on a sortie in a war situation. even the uniform does not really tell anything except the name. if u see uniforms of Abhi and Shabaz ..they look almost similar. actually they would have found some indian currency on the paki pilot ... picture is not conclusive though it does not look like nara baazi or trying to grab someones attention. But yes, the man looks v similar to the paki pilot Shahbaz. but both pilots landing at almost the same spot seems a bit too much...


Of course, but Abhi did carry some documents that he reportedly dunked in water and swallowed. Plus, they would have some paraphernalia on them.

I agree that the locals may not necessarily be able to read the names or tell IAF uniform from PAF.

But still it seems bizzare that the locals who would have surrounded him would not try and verify the identity as they reportedly did with Abhi. Given the Baki psyche I would have expected them to ask him to recite the qalima to prove that he was a Baki (or via some other means).

I can only wonder what the downed Baki pilot may have done ofr him to be lynched by the locals- perhaps he fatally shot someone or tried to bulldoze his way through.

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11330
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 17 Mar 2019 12:49

Kashi-> look at it from point of view of AAM paki abdul, PAF does not really crash and they have just got 1 IAF pilot, here is another coming down in a Orange white and green Parachute 2 km away.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Singha » 17 Mar 2019 12:57

Aditya_V wrote:Kashi-> look at it from point of view of AAM paki abdul, PAF does not really crash and they have just got 1 IAF pilot, here is another coming down in a Orange white and green Parachute 2 km away.


that would be signal to gather weapons and go on the hunt for pilot#2 kuffar.
the pak awaam esp of pakjabi settler type in POK is way more dangerous than their uniformed police/pa. this awaam also has the logistical people who run the cross border infiltration networks under isi control.

manjgu
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2137
Joined: 11 Aug 2006 10:33

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby manjgu » 17 Mar 2019 12:59

those documents which he dunked may not necessarily been those of his id... must be containing some secretive info. Pakis know many muslims in india too... reading kalima will not pass muster. i think they found Indian money and went about lynching him.

DrRatnadip
BRFite
Posts: 398
Joined: 31 Dec 2016 00:40

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby DrRatnadip » 17 Mar 2019 13:10

joygoswami wrote:This picture got swept under the rubble. This was one of the first that came out, I am damn sure there was a video of it too, but it got removed from Paki forums almost immediately. Image


what is there in this image..? can some Guru explain ?

ks_sachin
BRFite
Posts: 984
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby ks_sachin » 17 Mar 2019 13:17

Time to close this thread or is there no statute of limitations on theories..

Ardeshir
BRFite
Posts: 1082
Joined: 15 Jan 2008 03:10
Location: Londonistan/Nukkad

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Ardeshir » 17 Mar 2019 13:28

Image

I zoomed in on that picture, and sharpened that section.

Image

Rishi
Forum Moderator
Posts: 742
Joined: 29 Sep 2002 11:31
Location: Maximum City

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Rishi » 17 Mar 2019 13:46

He is surrounded by PA jawans. One can think locals might mistake own guy. Jawans mostly won't. And the pilot died - this guy looks fine.

manjgu
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2137
Joined: 11 Aug 2006 10:33

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby manjgu » 17 Mar 2019 13:50

damn... as i said the pic looks v similar to shahbaz... and its not nara bazi or trying to catch someones attention. Why does not abhi come out and tell the full story !! who the F was this man. the plot thickens !!

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11330
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 17 Mar 2019 14:23

Goi has kept a lid on Wing Commander Abhinandan and hence he has not spoken to the media since his release. The Pakistani Pilot may have been forced to stand and collapsed a few minutes/ seconds after this photo has been taken due to shock/internal injuries.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18683
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 17 Mar 2019 14:26

This picture has the sarnath lions over the wings, and abhi written below. Its not the pakistani dude whoever he was.

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11330
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 17 Mar 2019 14:28

Karan M wrote:This picture has the sarnath lions over the wings, and abhi written below. Its not the pakistani dude whoever he was.


That is Abhi uniform over which the sharpened pic of Paki has been put, you cant see the emblem on the Paki's uniform, this is the pic posted by Tandav earlier
Image

tandav
BRFite
Posts: 451
Joined: 26 Aug 2016 08:24

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby tandav » 17 Mar 2019 14:29

Kashi wrote:But wouldn't Bakis be able to quickly identify if a man was theirs or not. He would have papers, IDs, a mobile phone with Baki SIM card and numbers and most importantly the flight suit would have his name, flag (possibly) or PAF insignia somwehere.

How would so many Bakis fail to spot any of these signs, unless the pilot was flying with none of these, expecting to be shot down over India and hoping to make it back anonymously or melt into the local population.


Its well known that during combat missions all professional airforces and pilots scrub all identifying marks and documents from uniforms to ensure that if captured such information is not easily obtained from the documents captured .

The flight suits patches and tags are generally velcroed on for reasons given in link below. Look at Shabaz pic by other posters only the winged insignia with the crescent moon is probably permanent the round PAF Sherdils F-16 patch on his right chest is velcro and was obviously scrubbed before a combat mission. The same with WC Abhi notice how he has only the wing and his name Abhi on his flight suit and the patch zone on his right chest is clean . PAF may have removed even the Crescent Moon WIngs for combat mission on Shahbaz left chest.

Both pilots may have landed nearby and perhaps inadvertently running towards each other... Abhi towards East and Shahbaz towards West when they were captured.

https://www.quora.com/Why-do-the-patches-on-military-flight-suits-attach-with-velcro

Lalmohan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13262
Joined: 30 Dec 2005 18:28

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Lalmohan » 17 Mar 2019 14:36

Its an abdul doing aoa
Lets not get too carried away

VikasM
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 27
Joined: 23 Sep 2016 12:12

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby VikasM » 17 Mar 2019 14:43

This is where they board the vehicle. So the pic is from somewhere close to the motorable road. Chance they landed at different spots but hauled in here. Also, did someone say it's likely the two of them were shoved in the middle seat from another pic?

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 16834
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Rahul M » 17 Mar 2019 14:44

even for a perrenial optimist like me this is too unlikely & tenuous. there is likely a fizzle ya pilot dead somewhere, this upaar haat abdul is unlikely to be the same person. if the pakis thought this was another of our pilots do you think they wont have published his images like they did for WC Abhi ?
let's drop this line of discussion.

mmasand
BRFite
Posts: 616
Joined: 19 May 2009 23:46

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby mmasand » 17 Mar 2019 14:45

Lalmohan wrote:Its an abdul doing aoa
Lets not get too carried away


Agree 100%, he's just raising slogans as seen in the video when they were taking him away. Every Abdul looks the same with their v shaped jaws and a beard. I could literally gather 10 Shahbaz look alikes in an hour.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18683
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 17 Mar 2019 14:45

That's just a Paki doing AoA as Lalmohan noted.. that's all they do..jump around doing like monkeys over everything. I wish we had a few CSAR Garud teams ready and they had sent a few hose pipes of 7.62 mm into these dudes.

tandav
BRFite
Posts: 451
Joined: 26 Aug 2016 08:24

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby tandav » 17 Mar 2019 14:48

Rishi wrote:He is surrounded by PA jawans. One can think locals might mistake own guy. Jawans mostly won't. And the pilot died - this guy looks fine.


He may have died just after this pic was taken, or may be he is still alive, so far there is no evidence that the pilot died in air, there is evidence that some parachutes came down that is clear. If the pilot died it could be because of 1) internal injuries after during shoot down or ejection 2) Mob justice by trigger happy Jihadis who lost relative in Balakot or Soldier decided to off this dude was the more dangerous one since he was trying to prove he was Pakistani may have even recited Kalima etc which may have angered his captors even more. 3) His plane wreck may have killed couple of beloved goats.

My theory now is that this is WC Shahbaz who ejected and was captured by PA. He may or may not be dead... but he was definitely shot down by Abhi. He may have been in a 2 seat F-16 whose other pilot could have died.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18683
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 17 Mar 2019 14:50

Tandav, that is not the pilot in the picture, period. Find better evidence. We have all seen the video. It was just some random Paki prancing around.


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bala Vignesh, sgopal, TKiran, Yagnasri and 55 guests