MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 22 Mar 2019 09:24

nachiket wrote:Even if the Mig-21 was carrying a jamming pod, it is not foolproof. The AMRAAM and R-77 are able to home in on the source of the jamming.

Our guys were starting with a huge handicap in that engagement since they weren't cleared to engage unless fired upon as long as the pakis were on their side of the LoC. (at least that is how I've understood it). Hopefully the RoE's were changed quickly after that.


Noise jamming as I understand not deception jamming, the Elta has both modes.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 22 Mar 2019 09:29

Bishwa wrote:
Hari Nair wrote:..and how will that work ? The IFF circuit linkage is understood as it is designed with intent to avoid fratricide. But weapon guidance ?? You will need physical access to the aeroplane for that. Using the Link 16 as a backdoor is an option - but then the aeroplane needs to be equipped with Satnav, rather than LOS links.


Hari, AMRAAMs use GPS potentially? Would it not be possible to use that to control where it will work and where it will not?


For that to happen each AMRAAM or fighter has to have some sort of SATCOM receiver to be able to take instructions no matter where it is.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Bishwa » 22 Mar 2019 09:37

Or burnt into the firmware before shipping ... a AMRAAM lot is manufactured for a specific customer set... should not be hard to do

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Singha » 22 Mar 2019 09:43

occams razor says no realtime system exists to control or geofence these weapons.
but service contract and sw updates may be denied if the user acts against gotus wishes.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 22 Mar 2019 09:51

Bishwa wrote:Or burnt into the firmware before shipping ... a AMRAAM lot is manufactured for a specific customer set... should not be hard to do


But then it wont be context specific. How will the firmware know if nukes are carried or missile is on an offensive mission not a defensive one..

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby ramana » 22 Mar 2019 09:53

All that is humbug to fool Indian diplomats since 1952. US has always assured India weapons supplied to Pakistan won't be used against India.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby ramana » 22 Mar 2019 09:55

Did anyone not the gun was not used at all.
In fact would be too close for comfort

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Bishwa » 22 Mar 2019 10:02

Karan M wrote:
Bishwa wrote:Or burnt into the firmware before shipping ... a AMRAAM lot is manufactured for a specific customer set... should not be hard to do


But then it wont be context specific. How will the firmware know if nukes are carried or missile is on an offensive mission not a defensive one..


AMRAAM does not carry nukes ;-) And an AMRAAM outside Pakistani Airspace can be deemed offensive.

I dont have any specific evidence of this being implemented. So i will not push this line of thought after this reply.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Mort Walker » 22 Mar 2019 10:05

ramana wrote:All that is humbug to fool Indian diplomats since 1952. US has always assured India weapons supplied to Pakistan won't be used against India.


In 1965 prior to the Indo-Pak war, the US defense attache was taken to western border by the IA and shown Patton Tanks lined up. To which the defense attache stated that their turrets were pointed away. This was during the LBJ administration. Things went downhill after that.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby habal » 22 Mar 2019 10:12

Karan M wrote:For that to happen each AMRAAM or fighter has to have some sort of SATCOM receiver to be able to take instructions no matter where it is.


Link 16 has been upgraded for Satcom post 2010. How many PAF jets have it is what I would like to know.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Bishwa » 22 Mar 2019 10:18

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zl4ZRKkVilA

This video is Oriya News but it has eye witness accounts of the Rajouri bombing and the eye witness are speaking in Hindi

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Austin » 22 Mar 2019 10:20

The US Def Sec and MP thing carried by some news paper is just a face saving article. India has strongly condemend the same of AMARRAM which was sold under the guise of fighting terrorist and US Def sec had to say something nice to soothe the issue.

IF AMRAAM had such issue Bison would not have been shot down and MKI/M2k would not have to take electronic measure which IAF mentioned to evade it.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby suryag » 22 Mar 2019 10:30

MiG wasn’t shot down, it went down

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby chetonzz » 22 Mar 2019 10:47

Katare wrote:My doodle, A tribute to our F16 Slayer!

Image


and from me this...

Image
Image

i will soon print your doodle and paste it on it's golden stand...he is a hero and deserves adoration unlike those PAF pilots who die in vain without any courtesy and respect from their force/nation...

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby mmasand » 22 Mar 2019 10:53

ramana wrote:All that is humbug to fool Indian diplomats since 1952. US has always assured India weapons supplied to Pakistan won't be used against India.


Why do we yearn for Unkil to spank TSP, are we really desperate for validation? As they saying goes, all is fair in love and war. Unkil has, and will always put their interests above anyone else, and I don't blame them for that. I wish we would stop harping on about the End user monitoring agreement yadda yadda and take them on.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Zynda » 22 Mar 2019 11:00

^^Not yearning for their validation, rather just pointing out the duplicity of Unkil. Remember, Unkil won't think twice before giving sermons from what it perceives to be a higher moral pedestal stand, about India's intolerance, poverty, concerning nationalistic tendencies...all collected in the form of an atrocity literature. So we should take each & every opportunity to point out Unkil's duplicity in all fora.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Singha » 22 Mar 2019 11:09

uncle has been outed for a while now as a big hypocrite.

none other than bif listens to their friday sermons in the local madrassas er watering holes in lutyens delhi.

earlier goi used to politely yawn and listen, now such niceties are over post-2014.

the days of indians disbelieving their local media and expecting BBC/CNN to fairly report anything are long gone.
developments in the west last few years have shown the emperor is more nanga than the half naked fakir :D

all western institutions stand discredited and exposed as self-serving - media, think tanks, univs, ngo, hr ecosystem...

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby mmasand » 22 Mar 2019 12:28

Zynda wrote:^^Not yearning for their validation, rather just pointing out the duplicity of Unkil. Remember, Unkil won't think twice before giving sermons from what it perceives to be a higher moral pedestal stand, about India's intolerance, poverty, concerning nationalistic tendencies...all collected in the form of an atrocity literature. So we should take each & every opportunity to point out Unkil's duplicity in all fora.


Wholeheartedly agree, we are not the pariah of Asia. They preach not to allow chemical weapons, yet they napalmed the Viets. They have a goddarn legislation that allows Gitmo to function outside the purview of their legal jurisdiction. What schools do our babus go to?

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby nachiket » 22 Mar 2019 12:40

Bishwa wrote:AMRAAM does not carry nukes ;-)

He knows that. He was talking about this part from the original article

The second issue was the potential of misuse of F16s to deliver nuclear bombs against India. “An assurance was given that in case of a potential nuclear attack, the US can disable the aircraft. That, if they use nukes, they won’t be able to operate the F-16s,” the officer said.


It is all hogwash anyway. They have no control over what the pakis do with the AMRAAMS. And they knew exactly who the pakis were going to use them against when they sold them. Are the yanks telling us they sold them to be used against the TTP air force?

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby AdityaM » 22 Mar 2019 13:36

Even if there is a miracle geo-fence built in to a weapon, the next complexity would be whether the supplier (USA) considers Kashmir to be part of India or not.

They can always play the stance that geofence in Kashmir is a gray area.

It’s just naive of us to be knowingly misled.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Lalmohan » 22 Mar 2019 15:47

satcom transceivers are quite large and require a lot of power, will not fit in an amraam, doubt it makes practical sense to fit it into a regular F16
the 'kill switch' is basically an unkil agent telling babuloge that 'trust us, they won't do anything, we have their golas in our amritraj like grip'
the F16's and amraams were sold to paks to placate them on our Su30 and Mig29 build up - so that they would contribute to the afghan war on unkil's behalf. this is why unkil steps in quickly to 'defuse tensions' so that there is no escalation to an air war

(corrected satnav to satcom)
Last edited by Lalmohan on 22 Mar 2019 16:04, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby JTull » 22 Mar 2019 16:03

Lalmohan wrote:satnav transceivers are quite large and require a lot of power, will not fit in an amraam, doubt it makes practical sense to fit it into a regular F16
the 'kill switch' is basically an unkil agent telling babuloge that 'trust us, they won't do anything, we have their golas in our amritraj like grip'
the F16's and amraams were sold to paks to placate them on our Su30 and Mig29 build up - so that they would contribute to the afghan war on unkil's behalf. this is why unkil steps in quickly to 'defuse tensions' so that there is no escalation to an air war


Just saying. If standoff weapons can have satnav capabilities, then they can be fit into BVR missiles too.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Lalmohan » 22 Mar 2019 16:04

sorry i meant satcom, not satnav

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby raghuk » 22 Mar 2019 16:30

JTull wrote:
Lalmohan wrote:satnav transceivers are quite large and require a lot of power, will not fit in an amraam, doubt it makes practical sense to fit it into a regular F16
the 'kill switch' is basically an unkil agent telling babuloge that 'trust us, they won't do anything, we have their golas in our amritraj like grip'
the F16's and amraams were sold to paks to placate them on our Su30 and Mig29 build up - so that they would contribute to the afghan war on unkil's behalf. this is why unkil steps in quickly to 'defuse tensions' so that there is no escalation to an air war


Just saying. If standoff weapons can have satnav capabilities, then they can be fit into BVR missiles too.

I don't think there can ever be an efficient satcom without a largish dish. Standoff weapons can have satnav(passive gnss receivers) but not satcom. The big bulge you see on most HALE and MALE UAVs is for the satcom. We are facing big enough challenges in trying to integrate a satcom on our UAV so I don't think a satellite based remote kill is possible on AAMs given their diameter.
Cheers!

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Singha » 22 Mar 2019 16:40

is the mushroom shared dish on top of the searcher drones also satcom? i know the bigger drones have a tata sky type dish inside their top dome.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Dileep » 22 Mar 2019 17:32

I am convinced that any control if at all is done by good old "sneakernet" onlee. Being said that, it is trivial to integrate a broadcast satellite receiver to any equipment that can receive a coded message from LEO satellites.

Some time in the late 90s, PalmPilot had a plug in accessory that received 'paging messages' via satellite. This was the era when cellular phones were called "car phones" and text messaging was not invented.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Lalmohan » 22 Mar 2019 17:34

a practical kill switch could comprise of

a. a 'launch code' and denial thereof/hardware block
b. a completely unworking guidance system in a missile or smart munition (so totally useless)
c. or if unkil jstars/awacs is nearby - some sort of coded radio signal/jamming to prevent guidance systems from working

for all intents and purposes, if the paks have a missile, then unkil can't stop them launching it at us. whether they know how to do it competently is a different matter

i would also support the words of previous poster who encountered paf crews on his travels, they are not stupid individuals, but smart people in a stupid system are also ineffective

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby tsarkar » 22 Mar 2019 18:00

Dear Ulan Batori, Bishwa & others,

Air Marshal Harish Masand is a 1971 veteran with a Sabre kill over East Pakistan on the first day of war.

And Group Captain Hari Nair is the HAL Chief Test Pilot flying Dhruv, Rudra, LCH & LUH that everyone drools over on this forum. I would humbly request some respect for their point of view. Needless to say, they know their stuff.

I have myself posted that the primary cause of our not hitting back was because of the very restricted RoE that day whereas the Pakistanis went all out for the kill using long range shots supported by Erieye AWACS. I do believe Swedish systems can transmit datalink updates to their missiles.

Secondly, we have excessive operational control. In 1971, the Missile Boats off Karachi were being controlled by CNS in New Delhi. There was a communication breakdown and that was a blessing in disguise for Cdr Gopal Rao and Babrubahan Yadav who got their freedom of action in a fast evolving situation. Imagine if they waited for permission from Delhi/Bombay to fire missiles at the PNS Khyber, they themselves could have been blown to bits by the larger caliber guns of PNS Khyber.

Similarly, not one Indian pilot fired back, I speculate, is because they were awaiting instructions and that request kept going upwards consuming precious time.

What we know about Wingco Abhinandan is that he went across the LoC (and received two Ground Controller warnings of that). Which is why probably none of his wingmen were there to support him.

He had a R-73E lock that he communicated to Ground Controller. What happened thereafter we dont know. We dont know whether ground controller gave permission. I leave it there.

Coming to official narrative, as a kid I had read Nirmal Jit Singh's PVC official citation mentioning that he shot down a Sabre over Srinagar and sent another back on fire. Srinagar is Indian territory and no Sabre wreckage was found in vicinity. We now know that while he took on 6 Sabres, he didnt shoot any down. His citation nowadays is suitably edited to "hit one Sabre and set another on fire". On that cloudy day with Ghumman's Gnat lost and NJS ejecting at low altitude and not surviving, and thus with no eyewitnesses, I wonder who wrote the narrative for the citation.

=== admin snip ===

It isnt easy to cover up a shootdown & death. The pilots wife would have a family & social circle of her own and those interacting with them would have noticed. The pilot's child would be going to school and his classmates and their families would have noticed. Social media messages would have been there of the F-16 crash site and pilot and its impossible to censor every message even by the best of Governments.

Rest assured, our pilot's bravery and our equipment was not short on performance here. The C3 structure and leadership is at fault for not factoring the possibility of BVR shots from across the border. Hope they learn from the debacle and improve. And give people in the field full authority to act freely.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby tsarkar » 22 Mar 2019 18:08

PS - A pilot or sailor or officer violating RoE faces a court martial. That includes crossing LoC or firing weapons without authorization.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby JTull » 22 Mar 2019 18:36

Lalmohan wrote:sorry i meant satcom, not satnav


Think about UAVs and you'll have the answer.

1.45kg Cobham SATCOM Tiny AVIATOR UAV 200

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Lalmohan » 22 Mar 2019 18:37

ok, i stand corrected

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya G » 22 Mar 2019 18:38

tsarkar wrote:Dear Ulan Batori.......
It isnt easy to cover up a shootdown & death. The pilots wife would have a family & social circle of her own and those interacting with them would have noticed. The pilot's child would be going to school and his classmates and their families would have noticed. Social media messages would have been there of the F-16 crash site and pilot and its impossible to censor every message even by the best of Governments.

....y.


Pakistan has successfully suppressed death of their army men including officers for years, starting with at the Kargil war.

Every year we kill scores of them at LoC. You hear about every single indian death including NCOs of army and CAPFs. How many do we know of from Pak Army?

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby shyamal » 22 Mar 2019 18:52

Our armed forces and our govt have clearly said that a F16 was downed. This is not 1965. I am sure they have ample information to say that even if they lack proof that can be presented openly.
I believe our armed forces.(No disrespect to the veterans posting here).
We already know how duplicitous Pak gov is about its fallen soldiers.
Why are we still arguing about pak widow and kid existence?
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Singha » 22 Mar 2019 18:53

+16 +21 to that.

awacs traces would surely have been reviewed.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby shyamal » 22 Mar 2019 19:23

Offtopic - I think the mistake we make is thinking pak is "just like us". It is not. We are a very diverse, chaotic, unruly, noisy democracy where everyone has a opinion and no one is shy to shout it from rooftops. Pak is a feudal state perpetually under de-facto martial law.
End of offtopic.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby habal » 22 Mar 2019 19:24

pakistan is ruled by the army, thus there is no RoE for them.

Now coming to India. Here armed forces are ruled officialy by politicians (people's representatives), but unoficially by IAS bureaucrats manning MoD, MEA, cabinet secretaries, IAS deputed to PMO, PS to PM etc. Now for this bunch it is important to preserve their credibility to foreign embassies, for sake of Green Card holder son, daughter-in-law, dadaji, mamaji based in US.
Next WB/IMF/UN/ICJ/basel convention deputation depends upon their 'international acceptability' (trans to inaffectualness, passiveness), son studying college in massa etc.

This lot will never allow any alteration to RoE if they can help it. As tsarkar mentioned, any armed services personnel who violates this RoE will be punished severely to satisfy the gallery to international approvers whom this group is catering to.

So thus you see the dichotomy while politicians are all gung ho and 'giving go ahead for any action', nothing concrete is taking place.

Only way to remove this restriction on RoE is to hand over any operation completely to a CDS or air/army chief and that will take away any obstructions bureaucracy can pose in a taking fight back into enemy territory.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby manjgu » 22 Mar 2019 19:45

a question to those who question ROE... i ask if the Mig 21 had fallen inside Indian territory due to some gung ho Paki pilot violating the ROE.. would the things be as they turned out to be or for that matter if more than 1 IAF plane had fallen inside Indian territory? violating the ROE is like the paki non state actor...can bring countries to war ( which we clearly did not want). If u read Kaiser tufail on kargil, PAF thought of setting up an ambush for IAF but then didnt try out since they felt what happens if the IAF wreckage fell in indian territory ( which would violated the ROE). I guess in the present case, the H&D loss was so immense that it forced them to violate the ROE. ROE's were set to avoid people acting in trigger happy ways IMHO.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Rajiv Lather » 22 Mar 2019 20:08

tsarkar wrote:
Air Marshal Harish Masand is a 1971 veteran with a Sabre kill over East Pakistan on the first day of war.

And Group Captain Hari Nair is the HAL Chief Test Pilot flying Dhruv, Rudra, LCH & LUH that everyone drools over on this forum. I would humbly request some respect for their point of view. Needless to say, they know their stuff...

...Rest assured, our pilot's bravery and our equipment was not short on performance here. The C3 structure and leadership is at fault for not factoring the possibility of BVR shots from across the border. Hope they learn from the debacle and improve. And give people in the field full authority to act freely.


I believe tsarkar is also a retired IAF pilot ?

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby nam » 22 Mar 2019 20:18

If there was a restricted RoE, then in a hindsight WC Abhi showed the lot who set these RoE how counter productive it was. He took the initiative to take the fight to Pak.

If he had not crossed over the LC, no IAF pilot would have been captured, however PAF would have gone scott free. Our babus would have brushed it under the carpet and everything would have nice and dandy.

WC Abhi broke the ceiling and forced people to ask the question. Why were our hands tied?

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby manjgu » 22 Mar 2019 20:24

the ROE was not restricted but sensible..but the pakis played naughty. Tsarkar, in your opinion were the AMRAMMs fired to score a kill or only to scatter..force IAF to take evasive action. So one of the aspects of ROE is to take permission of a ground controller to fire? ( i mean when in a no war situation?).


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