MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 23 Mar 2019 07:27

I have mentioned this many times, due to geographical limitations PAF will enjoy an advantage in Kashmir area. Apart from Srinagar Awantipura Leh with their altitude limitations we only have Pathankot right at the Paki border which is why it is always been high on attacks by Pakis. We could probably base 6-8 light aircraft for CAP at Gaggal airport.
Paf plans are attack Kashmir defend North Pakjabi heartland . That's why only Shor kot Road Jacocabad Bholari and Maripurl are their to defend the area from Multan to Karachi while a lot bases are there to be around Islamabad

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby UlanBatori » 23 Mar 2019 07:32

That is not where their danger is coming from.
Last edited by UlanBatori on 24 Mar 2019 03:03, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby ramana » 23 Mar 2019 08:01

UB understood. Many ways to reach there.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby negi » 23 Mar 2019 08:15

On the contrary AM Masand is bang on with his point ; we have known TSP to always draw the first blood and despite that if we come up with a flimsy excuse like , oh we had only x deployed in Srinagar or we were outnumbered yet we did so well despite having a much larger air force it only points to the fact that in upper echelons of forces the thumb twiddling is not much different from Babudom. It doesn't take an Einstein to know that post Balakot we were expecting a TSP response and if after that we have to even come up with 'outnumbered' argument then there is either serious deficiency in our preparedness or lack of stuff between the ears. Obviously I might be wrong may be this is what IAF wanted to do and executed on it but then let's not then use the outnumbered crutch for there are no extra points for fighting with one hand tied behind one's back.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby nachiket » 23 Mar 2019 08:20

negi wrote:On the contrary AM Masand is bang on with his point ; we have known TSP to always draw the first blood and despite that if we come up with a flimsy excuse like , oh we had only x deployed in Srinagar or we were outnumbered yet we did so well despite having a much larger air force it only points to the fact that in upper echelons of forces the thumb twiddling is not much different from Babudom. It doesn't take an Einstein to know that post Balakot we were expecting a TSP response and if after that we have to even come up with 'outnumbered' argument then there is either serious deficiency in our preparedness or lack of stuff between the ears. Obviously I might be wrong may be this is what IAF wanted to do and executed on it but then let's not then use the outnumbered crutch for there are no extra points for fighting with one hand tied behind one's back.


My comments were based on my own understanding and assessment and being an arm-chair air marshal there is a high probability of me being completely wrong. The IAF has not given any "excuses" for anything.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Rakesh » 23 Mar 2019 10:05

negi wrote:On the contrary AM Masand is bang on with his point ; we have known TSP to always draw the first blood and despite that if we come up with a flimsy excuse like , oh we had only x deployed in Srinagar or we were outnumbered yet we did so well despite having a much larger air force it only points to the fact that in upper echelons of forces the thumb twiddling is not much different from Babudom. It doesn't take an Einstein to know that post Balakot we were expecting a TSP response and if after that we have to even come up with 'outnumbered' argument then there is either serious deficiency in our preparedness or lack of stuff between the ears. Obviously I might be wrong may be this is what IAF wanted to do and executed on it but then let's not then use the outnumbered crutch for there are no extra points for fighting with one hand tied behind one's back.

Negi, the IAF was not outnumbered. 24 vs 8 were the numbers, but how many of those 24 PAF aircraft actually engaged with the IAF? Official reports state that 4 - 5 AMRAAMs were launched at our 8 aircraft CAP team. None of those AMRAAMs found their mark, due to Elta jamming pods on the MiG-21 and the Su-30MKI. Upon seeing the ineffectiveness of their AMRAAMs, 23 of the aircraft turned back to Pakistan. One F-16 tried to ingress and dropped bombs near the Brigade HQ in Naushera. But even that failed. Wing Commander Varthaman quite possibly gave chase to that particular F-16 and shot it down. Unfortunately his own aircraft was lost in the process.

Their 24 aircraft strike package did not all consist of F-16s either. There were a mix of JF-17s, Mirage III/Vs and F-16s. The Bison can definitely engage all three types (as displayed by Wing Commander Varthaman himself). However, in a WVR dogfight, the F-16 would surely come out on top vis-à-vis the Bison. But still the F-16 was shot down. By giving chase, it appears that the PAF pilot did not want to engage in combat. Speaks volumes about their training. I would not under-estimate the PAF, but over-hyping their capabilities has its own pitfalls.

The IAF's CAP response was effective and to the point. What did their strike package achieve? It is not about the numbers alone, but the firepower that one brings to the fight. And that includes not just weaponry, but other accessories i.e. jamming pods and obviously training.

Wing Commander Varthaman's unit - No 51 Sqn - is responsible for air defence in the Kashmir Valley. That is the squadron's job. One cannot move all the Bisons out of an operational war zone, just because your enemy has a superior aircraft. Having a more modern aircraft does not always translate into victory as Wing Commander Varthaman so ably proved. The Su-30MKI was there to complement the Bison. But if the ROE stated that no engagement was to occur until the PAF crossed over into Indian air space, then that had to be followed.

With all due respect and deference to Air Marshal Harish Masand (Retd), he was not there at Srinagar or at Air HQ to chalk out a strategy of asset deployment to counter a possible PAF strike. Very easy to second guess an operation from an armchair. So he is certainly entitled to (and has earned it) his views, but his view does not make it gospel truth. I do not buy the theory that the IAF fought with one hand behind its back.

Scoring brownie points or winning perception battles on social media - over who shot down more aircraft - is not the IAF's job. The IAF did their job damn well on Feb 26th and on the next day on Feb 27th. In the words of one former Air Chief (commenting on the Balakot Strikes), "When you give a few punches, you have to be able to absorb a few punches yourself."

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Sanju » 23 Mar 2019 10:14

Well said Rakesh Saar

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby negi » 23 Mar 2019 10:18

Rakesh you have your views I have mine :) as for theory yours is as good as mine .

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Hari Nair » 23 Mar 2019 10:23

UlanBatori wrote:I am going to respond to tsarkarji. Apologies for length of post ….*********************************************************************************

All other twits, videos are suspect. But at the time that the above were posted, the Pakis were fully convinced that they had shot down TWO indian planes, one of them a TWO-SEATER. Su-30 was hoped for.
They IMMEDIATELY declared that they had no role in the crash of the helicopter "near Srinagar". Which made it 399% certain that it was their doing, and they knew it would be highly provocative. MAYBE the helicopter was not the intended target, but I don't believe that either. Maybe they shot at anything flying on Indian side. Miracle that the Air Asia airliner was not downed.

Maybe the 5 points above should be pinned to a "Please Read B4 Posting Theories Citing Ur Vast Experience" at the top. A similar set of facts is there for Balakot, but that is harder and more speculative.


Just a few points...

The fact that an F-16 went down in that aerial enagement is absolutely beyond doubt. Don't for a moment think that either Air Mshl Masand or I am casting any doubts or arguments on that point. Too many eye-witnesses, videos, narratives, etc before the Pakki spin-doctors took over and hushed the matter up.

I am, instead pointing out the following:

- The PAF operates on a very thin resource level. They do have their level of proficiency, can definitely throw a punch or two and cannot be dismissed as a bunch of cartoonish buffoons. However, the fact remains that they operate at a far lower resource, training and other levels and they (as the rest of that country) make up for their deficiencies with that typical Pakjabi perception building of invincible (martial + racial) superiority over the 'timid' and 'meek' Indians. I have operated with these chappies and have experienced it first-hand. They were initially rather dismissive (and a bit contemptuous) of us, however gave us space when they saw our performance. The Game Theory works on them - no doubt about that.

- This rather braggadocio perception of themselves is one and perhaps the key cornerstones of their psyche. Puncturing this pereption, in my opinion will hit an important Centre of Gravity- their image of themselves and ultimately their minds.

- The Balakote airstrikes shook them deeply - little doubt of that. It struck not only the terrorist camp, but more importantly, at the core of their psyche - this perception and image of themselves. To them - the ultimate unthinkable had just happened - The ('dam'n Indian') Worm had Turned and had dared to strike back!!! Their retaliatory strike was essentially to level the equation again and they desperately wanted to draw blood.

- Seen from this perspective, it was critical for them to hide all traces of their flagship F-16 that was downed. Doing so, they have undoubtedly managed to crawl up the rungs of the ladder from being hyphenated to 'Af-PAK' and back to -'Indo-Pak.' Forum members here may argue that more than perceptions, the facts matter and we know the fact that their flagship fighter went down in that encounter. However, as I had pointed out earlier, there is a very good reason to manage perceptions as well - to strike into their minds. We need to kick them off the 'Indo-Pak' rung of hyphenation and push them back to wherever they were.

- It is here I have a major grouse - on our side there were only selective leaks to 'studio journos/generals' of the aerial engagement, some of which were very obviously contradictory and some which verged on the hyberbole. Without disclosing aspects that will jeopordise ongoing operations, it is important to officially put out clinical and concise statements with supporting facts on damage(s) done and losses inflicted on the adversary, rather than leak it out to journos. Or if the journos were making those statements on the aerial engagement without any official support, they need to be corrected. Given the critical need to ensure that the F-16 kill cannot be buried away and needs to be highlighted very specifically, more information on that downed F-16 needs to be put out officially, rather than leaks to journos - It could be small mutually supporting facts about the location of crash, tail number, crew details, sqn, etc. I am sure and confident that it will be put out soon.

- I also fully agree with Karan:
Karan M wrote:Nair sir, agree completely that they aren't to be underestimated. The AMRAAM usage for instance & our reliance on ROEs that put us at a disadvantage. Sometimes on seeing our guys I do get the impression that we are still playing to some Marquis of Queensberry's rules on how gentlemen should play a boxing match (ironically, the man himself took down Oscar Wilde in a vicious, no holds barred yet carefully planned ambush), whereas the other side follows no rules at all, and is out to score a perception gain somehow or the other. And I STILL cant understand for what reason the MOD is sitting on the evidence IAF has submitted to it.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Rakesh » 23 Mar 2019 10:48

negi wrote:Rakesh you have your views I have mine :) as for theory yours is as good as mine .

Are'nt you a sight for sore eyes! I just saw your Rank at right.

Can you please email me? I need to ask you for a favour. My email is in my profile.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 23 Mar 2019 11:07

Nair sir!! Wish you could post a bit more about those interactions with Pakjabis (as we colloquially call them), would be fascinating.

I just wish everyone thought as clearly as you do about ensuring their braggadacio is punctured.

I don't see this level of clarity in many of our decision makers ("oh, they are people like us") and i hope the need to puncture the F-16 balloon is done ASAP. It's core to their pysche. Their hagiographers like Alan Warnes & even Indians like Ravi Rikhye have constantly shown it to be the cornerstone of their claimed superiority. Then there are all the claims of their "oh-so-superior training". None complained harder about the Cope India & multiple other exercise results than the Pakistanis. Overnight their fake claims of superior training etc evaporated.

To lose a F-16 with AMRAAMs to an upgraded Bison, flown by a swarthy, superbly composed, clinical south Indian air-warrior, would be the ultimate insult to their fake claims of racial superiority and having the best of the best pilots and equipment. Its a blow to their pysche that even the loss of a hundred troops on the border would not equal (which anyhow the ISI would suppress and they lost 5x that number at Kargil and still prance about). I recall the Pakistani reaction at Kargil, they were fully willing to engage in the worst kind of denial about their troops and their fate, but the loss of that Atlantique to Sqdrn Ldr Bundela, that was something they just couldn't take.

With all these factors in mind, I hope the Govt's silence on this matter ends ASAP. As does their reliance on journalists & media houses who usually can't tell a mortar from a motor, and are usually running their mouth off 24/7 on unrelated topics. For credibility, we have to establish a proper information flow and as you say, it has to be detailed, yet protect our classified sources, be clinical and credible.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby chetonzz » 23 Mar 2019 11:31

Hari Nair wrote:Just a few points...

<snipped by admin>


sir, is there a possibility that Indian planners are well aware of this fact and is the exact reason why we are NOT rubbing their nose on this F-16 issue...
because if we do that then Porkis would once again try to "one up" the matter to satisfy their "pak kaum" ego...which is being avoided by our team since they have already proved their point with "pulwama- balakot saga"
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Reason: Please do not quote long posts in their entirety. Makes the page difficult to read.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 23 Mar 2019 11:39

This sort of "what if" is what allows the PAF to get away. So if they one-up, we go twice-up. That's what puts the PAF and Pak in their place!

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby anishns » 23 Mar 2019 12:10

Sir with respect. I think there could be a multitude of factors in play. Perhaps even pressure from Uncle Sammy. Surely, their arms industry loses serious credibility with an almost legendary & superior F16 taken down by a supposedly “flying coffin”. Especially in the Islamic world because for some reason F16s have always had a special place.

Hence, the added pressure from uncle and it’s allies on the pakis to release the wingco without much fuss and a quid pro quo that GoI keeps mum about downing the “Tayyara”


Karan M wrote:This sort of "what if" is what allows the PAF to get away. So if they one-up, we go twice-up. That's what puts the PAF and Pak in their place!

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Shivaji » 23 Mar 2019 13:08

Karan M wrote:This sort of "what if" is what allows the PAF to get away. So if they one-up, we go twice-up. That's what puts the PAF and Pak in their place!


Since Balakot, I have been involved in many local battles with Pakis in online domain. And 100% agree with above.

We beat to death any proofs we may have by over-analysis and give Pakis stick to beat us with. Whereas Pakis stick to that level of analysis which is convenient to them neglecting further analysis which refutes their claim.

With Pakis releasing only that which is convenient to them and our side sticking to "time and place of our choosing" in releasing proof, common key-board kshatriya is handicapped. He / she has to earn bread-and-butter and tries to take-on good-for-nothing Pakis with very little ammo in limited time he has.

All our attempts to give-it-back to Pakis are almost always countered by Pakis in two ways:
1. They will ask for proof of say India downing F16.
2. They will share DGISPR video or Abhinandan video, white trash like NYT, WaPo etc

In initial days, our boys used to be taken aback by this.

I had big fights with Pakis. This is how I took on low level jihadis:
1. Proof of our assertion is GOI / IAF statement. Our agencies have gained our faith and we believe in them.
2. Discard DGISPR statements citing 1971 / 1999 / OBL precedents.
3. Discard NYT / WaPo statements saying they are biased sources citing NYT cartoon on Mars mission and we do not give two hoots for what white trash says
4. Ensure that yours is last post in the conversation. Do not give them edge by giving-up half-way. More often than not Paki will stop.
5. If Paki abdul asks for proof, ask him why does he not go to Balakot to get his proof or go to Bhimber police station for info on F16? Ridicule them as to how he being hardly 2-3 hrs does not dare go there and asking we Indians to get proof.

Making statements like Modi for 2019 riles them even further!

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Rajiv Lather » 23 Mar 2019 15:00

When you send our armed forces into battle with one arm tied behind their back, then the end result is never going to be decisive.

Please, please stop blaming our forces and their commanders, they are just following orders. If the orders and directives are deliberately fuzzy, then the outcome will be fuzzy too. Someone above me has blamed 'upper echelons of forces' and 'babudom'. Wake up ! The hobbling of forces in war, the decision is taken at a much higher level.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 23 Mar 2019 15:33

A country where Rafale files can be leaked, surely so can F-16 files. Let's not make excuses for our own inaction. The F-16 guys can always sell some new toys to the Islamic Emirates etc.


anishns wrote:Sir with respect. I think there could be a multitude of factors in play. Perhaps even pressure from Uncle Sammy. Surely, their arms industry loses serious credibility with an almost legendary & superior F16 taken down by a supposedly “flying coffin”. Especially in the Islamic world because for some reason F16s have always had a special place.

Hence, the added pressure from uncle and it’s allies on the pakis to release the wingco without much fuss and a quid pro quo that GoI keeps mum about downing the “Tayyara”


Karan M wrote:This sort of "what if" is what allows the PAF to get away. So if they one-up, we go twice-up. That's what puts the PAF and Pak in their place!

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Dileep » 23 Mar 2019 16:23

Couple more points to add to the Yakherder's post:
1. Multiple cellphone videos asking about "doosra banda" (the second guy) and allusion to him being taken to hospital.
2. Claim that the pilot is shot on the leg, but Abhi being fine.
3. The drop tank looking different from a MiG21 tank, and the TFTA soljer asking whether it fell close to the MiG debris and that to be taken away from the rest of the debris (of the MiG). Then we see the DT and some other selected bits being taken away.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Rishi_Tri » 23 Mar 2019 16:40

Going by awards that were given out during recent Presidential commendations, Balakot operation and subsequent defensive ops went exactly as planned.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Hari Nair » 23 Mar 2019 16:42

Dileep wrote:Couple more points to add to the Yakherder's post...Then we see the DT and some other selected bits being taken away.


-That's what I also mentioned - too many independent clues before the Pakki clamped down and spin doctored their way around ..Their F-16 definitely went down in that engagement.

anishns wrote:Sir with respect. I think there could be a multitude of factors in play. Perhaps even pressure from Uncle Sammy. Surely, their arms industry loses serious credibility with an almost legendary & superior F16 taken down by a supposedly “flying coffin”. Especially in the Islamic world because for some reason F16s have always had a special place.

Hence, the added pressure from uncle and it’s allies on the pakis to release the wingco without much fuss and a quid pro quo that GoI keeps mum about downing the “Tayyara”


-The F-16 is not exactly the USAF flagship fighter, is it? The USAF F-16 fleet have had combat losses before and this was not the first time that an F-16 has gone down. Yes, the management at LM may have collectively grinded their teeth and wished it otherwise, given their 'F-21' proposal in the forthcoming fighter acquisition. That's where that would end, I should think. Its also a known fact in professional circles that the Bison with its upgraded radar and weapon systems is no pushover. So, I would think its a bit far-fetched suggesting that the Yanks or their arms industry have asked us to keep it under wraps. As for the Pakkis asking for a 'quid-pro-quo', that in itself would be admitting to the loss of their F-16!!

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby habal » 23 Mar 2019 17:45

If the MiG-21 will go down, or even has a chance of going down, as a result of debris ingestion from a missile strike doing it's basic job of wvr interception, then is it not fairly unsuited to the role of an interceptor based in Srinagar ??

the single engine antiquated platform of the 21 though embellished by proper jammers and HMS+radar paraphernalia should be better fit in a role, slightly south of Srinagar like hindon where it can do a bvr strike from standoff distance unlike from Sringar where PoK is within stone's throw ??

A twin engine platform like MiG29 may be better suited to interceptor role at Srinagar.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Rajiv Lather » 23 Mar 2019 17:54

PM Modi's tweet "I extend my greetings and best wishes to the people of Pakistan on the National Day of Pakistan. It is time that ppl of Sub-continent work together for a democratic, peaceful, progressive & prosperous region, in an atmosphere free of terror and violence"

We seem to be in a hurry ? What about 44 dead in Pulwama ? Love letter anyone ?

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Lalmohan » 23 Mar 2019 17:58

The 21 has seen air combat for decades all over the world, debris ingestion is just bad luck and not a regular feature; the 21 remains a highly potent fighter platform

Dont doubt it

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Manish_Sharma » 23 Mar 2019 18:04

Porkis didn't allow international aero experts to inspect Mig 21 airframe because the experts will know it was not shot down by missile or gun ; but went down due to ingesting debris/ smoke of Viper F 16.

That's why they cleared away fast the airframe of Mig 21 and debris of F16 blown to PIECES BY R-73

Also they offered Balakot complex for inspection to world media AFTER CLEARING OF WEATHER. ITS BEEN 25 DAYS AND WORLD MEDIA IS KEPT ON WAIT; THE WEATHER ISN'T CLEARING :)

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Anoop » 23 Mar 2019 18:35

Regarding the use of MiG-21 as a CAP platform, isn't that due to the fact that it's the fastest fighter to scramble? The Su-30 takes orders of minutes higher to scramble, don't know about the MiG-29. With airbases so close to the border on both sides, this becomes an important consideration. When the Tejas is fully deployed in the forward air bases, it will take on this role.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Austin » 23 Mar 2019 18:40

Mig-21 has the shortest scramble time of all the AF fighter , I recollect during kargil where a pilot mentioned scramble time of Bison of around 30 sec if memory serves me right

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby nam » 23 Mar 2019 18:46

Also the fact that it can dart towards interception point at Mach 2 helps.

Zoom, hit and come back.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Mort Walker » 23 Mar 2019 18:53

The LCA Tejas was designed to be a replacement for the MiG-21. So it should have the shortest scramble time.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby nam » 23 Mar 2019 19:04

I think the design philosophy is different. Mig21 cannot stay in the air for very long, so it would need very short scramble time. They dart,hit and come back.

LCA has better station time, so it would probably be airborne much earlier compared to Mig21.

Along with this, longer ranged radar and BVR means it does not need to dart to the target for a CC fight. With it's large wings, IFR, datalinks,BVR, it can stay high in the sky, much longer on a watch.

This is my understanding anyways..

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Bishwa » 23 Mar 2019 19:47

tsarkar wrote:Dear Ulan Batori, Bishwa & others,

He had a R-73E lock that he communicated to Ground Controller. What happened thereafter we dont know. We dont know whether ground controller gave permission. I leave it there.

Rest assured, our pilot's bravery and our equipment was not short on performance here. The C3 structure and leadership is at fault for not factoring the possibility of BVR shots from across the border. Hope they learn from the debacle and improve. And give people in the field full authority to act freely.


Dear tsarkar,
I will keep my reply short since I see Hari Nair has already covered the points of too many evidences of the a PAF F16 going down (even from publicly available videos from across the border, statements from across the border). So whether GC gave permission or not, it seems a PAF F16 was downed.

I am not sure why this is being termed a "debacle". In engagements like this, it is possible we will suffer casualties too. Yes the RoE could have been better given that Balakot happened and it is unfortunate the Mig21 crashed on the other side of the LOC.

I generally like to read your posts and hope we can have healthy discussions like this in the future

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Dileep » 23 Mar 2019 20:09

30 sec would be 'warm start' from the ORP. All systems will be powered on and standby. Just strap in, start engine and roll.

The LCA should do something similar (I don't know the spec). Even the 'cold start' is pretty fast for her (I know the spec).

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Austin » 23 Mar 2019 20:17

Dileep wrote:30 sec would be 'warm start' from the ORP. All systems will be powered on and standby. Just strap in, start engine and roll.

The LCA should do something similar (I don't know the spec). Even the 'cold start' is pretty fast for her (I know the spec).


Dont know about LCA but Bison has the shortest time to Air among existing IAF fighter given all condition being equal. That was what the pilot was trying to say when asked why Bison was on this mission during kargil.

nam , the on air time depends on other factor like fuel , On internal fuel Bison can be on air for 25-30 mins on CAP but additional fuel to land , if you add the Centerline drop tank that value would change and similarly adding two more drop tanks on wing with centerline tank that value can change as well , That will still leave the Bison with 2 x AAM plus 3 Drop tank and internal fuel.

Having said that Bison is short leg compared to other fighers in fleet including Tejas but good enough for its task for a quick CAP or Interceptor mission

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Y I Patel » 23 Mar 2019 20:54

To Group Captain Nair, Karan, Shivaji et al who are fretting about India not putting out the right amount of information right now, may I humbly suggest that this may be due to some deliberate design that none of us are privy to. May I, with all due deference to you suggest that you may be passing judgment based on a highly insufficient sampling of facts?

The battle of public perception cannot be won in real time. Attempting to do so like that bafoon DGISPR did will only give your adversary an opening to exploit.

This is not a game of tennis where you can start passing judgment by the end of the first set. If you want a game analogy, this is like chess where the first exchange of pieces has just taken place. Now tell me, who has gained a stronger position in the opening set of moves? Which party has lost the stronger piece? Can you even see the entire board and how all the pieces are deployed?

Just go back to Kargil. In retrospect, was Tiger Hill the main or only scene of action? Were the battles in Batalik, Yaldor, and Turtuk any less important because you did not immediately learn of them?

Give your government time and unquestioning support right now if you think it chose the right course of action in the first place. We will all have time to really pass judgment when a fuller picture emerges in 10 years.
Last edited by Y I Patel on 23 Mar 2019 21:15, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Katare » 23 Mar 2019 21:00

chetonzz wrote:
Katare wrote:My doodle, A tribute to our F16 Slayer!

Image


and from me this...

Image
Image

i will soon print your doodle and paste it on it's golden stand...he is a hero and deserves adoration unlike those PAF pilots who die in vain without any courtesy and respect from their force/nation...

Nice man! IAF can use the duct tape too, color matches perfectly :lol:

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby ramana » 23 Mar 2019 21:12

Wg Co shot down the F16. People have talked to him.
All I can say.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby manjgu » 23 Mar 2019 21:36

ramana wrote:Wg Co shot down the F16. People have talked to him.
All I can say.
thats so heartening to know. awesome to hear from horses mouth though we all know he did shoot down. He should be brought on national TV and interviewed. awesome....

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby UlanBatori » 23 Mar 2019 23:05

Hariji:
Thanks. I will convey a few perspectives from my 6th coujin thrice removed, who has both taught pilots of various air forces incl. western, Indian, maybe Israeli, and Saudi - but not Paki and that was deliberate. Some of them were in the first waves going in to neutralize air defences, first action of any war. Other former students command nuclear subs, others fix them. Some have been in Space. But Pak interaction was closest on a cricket team.

Young Pakistanis (speaking of cricket team) are very well brought up. And they are more knowledgeable about India, than their contemporaries from urban India!!! Also have excellent traditional (old-World) upbringing with courtesy. They are superbly disciplined... in this respect FAR ahead of their Indian counterparts (no disrespect to Indian Air Force Officers, I know they are superb).

Bottom line: If they had a million of those types working for them, India would be in very very serious jeopardy. Fortunately for India, these kids, scions of their best families, Generals etc, leave ASAP to escape the garbage that rules Pakistan.

That said, ***EVERY*** Pakistani I have ever met, has a streak of pakiness. Very close beneath their veneer of sophistication is sheear hollowness. MAYBE the few that are really well-brought-up may be different but even that I doubt.

I don't know where the arrogant exterior comes from: Maybe the result of growing up knowing that they are born in a loser nation that can never face the truth about itself - and is getting further away every day.

The rest with their strutting around, is not because they think Indians are inferior. They will try that on anyone, except that with goras they will first try brown-nosing to be seen as equals.

It is sheer terror that their own dark side and thin veneer of respectability will get ripped open.

Also, I think they are brought up sheltered, and hence when they have to interact with aam pakis, they can quickly say the wrong thing, put on the wrong attitude, and get beaten to death as apparently happened to the F-16 crew.

These are the points to exploit, IMO. At the end of the day, I would hate to be asked to shoot these well-brought-up young people. But if I must, I must shoot to kill.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 23 Mar 2019 23:35

ramana wrote:Wg Co shot down the F16. People have talked to him.
All I can say.


Yes!! :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Y I Patel » 23 Mar 2019 23:58

The most educative interview for me post Balakot was ACM Tipnis with a local Marathi channel. I had pleasure of hearing the original interview but Rishi(?) posted a great translation. That was a master class in the potential and pitfalls of using air power where he educated people on why IAF used m2k, spice, attacked at night, had feints, etc. Before, I might add, the spin meisters took over

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby VikramS » 24 Mar 2019 00:33

tsarkar wrote:Dear Ulan Batori, Bishwa & others,

He had a R-73E lock that he communicated to Ground Controller. What happened thereafter we dont know. We dont know whether ground controller gave permission. I leave it there.

Rest assured, our pilot's bravery and our equipment was not short on performance here. The C3 structure and leadership is at fault for not factoring the possibility of BVR shots from across the border. Hope they learn from the debacle and improve. And give people in the field full authority to act freely.


In a WVR dogfight with a heavily maneuvering targets the IR lock can be broken in an instant. The R-73 has a massive off-bore capacity and the lock itself could very hold only for a fleeting moment.

I very much doubt that the WingCo radioed to ask for permission because the battle could be over by the time the controller acknowledges, reviews and responds.

More likely it was WingCo informing and even just speaking loud (a Yes!!! exclamation) on finally being the first IAF pilot in a generation to have a PAF plane locked live.

Once the PAF plane crossed the LOC AND dropped payload :D , there were fair game for the WingCo to bring down.

The only question would have been whether to pursue it to enemy held territory or not. And that is the call WingCo took. The PAF plane had been the aggressor and he was not going to let them get away without being bruised.


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