MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 26 Mar 2019 10:20

the AMRAAM has a length of 3.6m, diameter of 17.7cm and wingspan of 52.5cm ..isnt that like the dimensions of a UAV?? only speeds are much higher...

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 26 Mar 2019 10:23

https://www.quora.com/At-what-distance- ... AESA-radar

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 26 Mar 2019 10:26

Aditya_V wrote:
Sanju wrote:He heads ISPR - Inter-Services Pub(l)ic Relations.
I.e Inter Services Propoganda , thier job is to emulate Joseph Gobbels.

Don't insult Gobbels. More like Baghdad Bob.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 26 Mar 2019 10:28

manjgu wrote:the AMRAAM has a length of 3.6m, diameter of 17.7cm and wingspan of 52.5cm ..isnt that like the dimensions of a UAV?? only speeds are much higher...

But that's not the only thing you're looking at. Two aircraft firing missiles and flares as well. If you were just looking for AMRAAMs the job would be easier.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 26 Mar 2019 10:35

Mort Walker wrote:
At S band you can make lots of detections, but can you resolve something that small against clutter? You obtain higher resolution using a larger antenna aperture and narrow beam. By 4th square law I assume you're talking about the radar range equation? Which again is a function of wavelength and antenna aperture. When your intent is to pick up low RCS targets, then clutter becomes a concern along with accurate velocity detection. In air combat there are going to be lots of returns of large and small objects at high velocities. To distinguish an A-A missile or bomb against larger targets would require multiple returns at different wavelengths, pulse sizes and pulse repetition rates. A radar computer with reflectivity and velocity data would have to distinguish this quickly - by quickly I mean within one scan. Not an easy task, but not impossible either. Hence, it leads one to believe there has been a high level of automation going on.

There is definitely a huge amount of automation in the AEW&C and AWACS, apart from the aircraft mission and data processors, they also have the GES, which feeds into the IACCS.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 26 Mar 2019 10:40

manjgu wrote:https://www.quora.com/At-what-distance- ... AESA-radar

He's taken a high average figure. By those standards, AEW&CS would easily detect it at over 100 km easy.
The minimum RCS was around 0.006 sq mtr in that study. By those standards, 60km ++ for AEW&CS.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 26 Mar 2019 10:45

Karan M wrote:
There is definitely a huge amount of automation in the AEW&C and AWACS, apart from the aircraft mission and data processors, they also have the GES, which feeds into the IACCS.

It takes several years to get proficient at this. The IAF woman who was the flight controller truly deserves a medal and promotion. If anything that came out of this encounter with PAF F-16s and their strike package is that air defence strategy bodes well for the future.

habal · Post by **habal** » 26 Mar 2019 10:55

wasn't the turkish f16 launched AIM120c missile that bought down an Su-25 over Syria guided by a NATO awacs that was loitering around cyprus or Iraq. The f16 radar was switched off and missile was guided from afar and that is how ground control and Su-25 failed to pick up this bogey. So it is possible to track this class of missiles remotely else how can they be guided by awacs from afar.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 26 Mar 2019 11:00

Habal, source??

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 26 Mar 2019 11:01

Contrast this with what happenned in Balakot, PAF ground radars were Jammed, asked F-16's to investigate, they identified 12 bogies plus unidentified numbers of top cover aircraft, 4 Su 30's Were watching those F-16 and did not interfere with the package.

habal · Post by **habal** » 26 Mar 2019 11:49

It is buried somewhere in the Levant thread archives where there were threadbare discussions on how the turks pulled it off. The Su-25 RWR and GCI didn't give any clue that a f16 was waiting for an ambush. An oft used term then was triangulation, the cyprus air base of NATO, an US awacs hovering over Iraqi kurdistan and a sattelite overhead managed to pull off this feat. The awacs collected info from satellite and cyprus and guided the missile. Or the cyprus air base collected the info from the awacs and satellite and guided the amraam. The f16 didn't have to switch on the radar at all except the very last moment when the missile was about to lock. By that time it was too late for the frogfoot.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Ru ... _shootdown

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 26 Mar 2019 12:06

You have to understand that the F16 can likely fire from TWS, so no launch warning and even otherwise when cued by AWACS, it can likely receive Link16 data, fire the AMRAAM and guide it in, till goes active without using it's own radar ..but it likely needs other F16 high precision TWS.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 26 Mar 2019 12:19

Can similair launches be done us with Bars, or Upgraded M-2000 and MICA missiles?

habal · Post by **habal** » 26 Mar 2019 12:40

Though couple f16s were known to be loitering at low altitude waiting for the Su-25 to make its pass, but neither of them had switched on their radar and were guided by GCI alone.

here are two links that analyze what happened in that event.
https://sputniknews.com/analysis/201512 ... 4-downing/

and Indian perspective on the Su-25 shootdown
https://www.rbth.com/blogs/stranger_tha ... own_548229
the primary takeaway for the Indian military from the shoot down of the Russian Su-24 is this: next time there’s a conflict, carry a big stick.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 26 Mar 2019 13:19

habal wrote:wasn't the turkish f16 launched AIM120c missile that bought down an Su-25 over Syria guided by a NATO awacs that was loitering around cyprus or Iraq. The f16 radar was switched off and missile was guided from afar and that is how ground control and Su-25 failed to pick up this bogey. So it is possible to track this class of missiles remotely else how can they be guided by awacs from afar.

I don't think the AWACs is "tracking" the missile here; it is tracking the target and providing MCUs via some datalink although i'm not sure if this is possible via S band radars as on AWACs/GCI. but if they could do it, the attack is completely "passive" - the Viggens were famous for this even without AWACs support, and IIRC the IN Shars could do this with the derbys'. Mig 31s with the zaslon and the mki with bars can also do this. A group of fighters form the picture, I think one aircraft lights up the target, targeting info is shared across the datalinked network and a passive one fires the missile. However, I believe this is not possible unless it is an X band FCR,which provides proper target tracks to the missile.

smarter folks can clarify if i'm missing something.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 26 Mar 2019 14:03

OT with the Turkish Su-24- what happened was with NAtO US having the flight path, the F-16 ambushed the Su 24 by being in the ideal position to lock on with the Su 24 in the no escape zone of the Turkish AAM's. By the time Su 24 realized the F-16's were there and meant to shoot them down it too late .
The Russians flew without top cover aircraft and did not expect Turkey to shoot down their aircraft

The lesson to be learnt is don't expect the enemy to play by Rules and laws, it is just worthless paper for them. Similarly, it will foolish of us to expect US to confirm F-16 down or AMRAAM use violated agreement unless we have serious leverage within the American system which I doubt we have.

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 26 Mar 2019 21:18

Prof. Prodyut Das's Analysis for Mig21/F16 fight

What did happen was one (josh!) flea bitten pilot in a moth eaten Bison went and downed a F 16 with a CCM and it appears he in turn was downed by the F 16’s wing man. Some hold that the F 16 had gone into a “vertical Charlie” and when the R 73 blew the F 16 airframe apart the MiG 21 ingested the debris.

This time they published a picture of a Hawk that crashed in Kalaikunda about two years ago. If this is the best that the ISI can do, …..!? Kuch sharam to Karo!

The rectangular aperture visible in the picture was for the stub axle of the Stabilizer and the fuel dump vent pipe. The finish is far too good to be anything Soviet. They were using end mills on the engine casing and that left scuff marks which dulled the finish and later took on a patina of burnt oil! Russian high temperature materials have a light copper sort of colour. The above is a suggestion. The finish is far too good to be from a Soviet era aircraft or engine!

the BVR missile (AMRAAM) fired or simply jettisoned? If fired the skin would have been exposed to 450 degrees centigrade for almost a minute yet the lettering was pin sharp. Also the casing is pretty intact for something that impacted at Mach3. So were they simply jettisoned to clean up the aircraft and get out of trouble?

The success of the Bison was also due to it being the simpler aircraft , which, like the Gnat,had a smaller “wind up” time and so was able to launch and be in the right position at the right time. It was of course very daringly flown by an obviously well trained pilot. It is reassuring that the AF is, as always before, in great professional hands.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 26 Mar 2019 21:59

Leave it to this luddite to make it an anti BVR/anti-tech screed and start attacking the Tejas again.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 26 Mar 2019 22:07

Yes I got that flavor from the article.

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 26 Mar 2019 22:20

This looks like the source video from which the flaming plane pic must have been sourced which was being used by Pakis to show that its a Su30

Doesn’t look like it’s related to mig21-F16 encounter

https://twitter.com/sayareakd/status/11 ... 98497?s=21

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 26 Mar 2019 22:41

BTW Karan M check this video of IN Mig-29K from 7:20 onward it carries the R-77 and Elta 8222 EW pod on the port wing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhN7_L3R6uU&t=182s

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 26 Mar 2019 23:05

"The finish is far too good to be anything Soviet. "

must attack the quality aspect now eh!~

there was also another aspect to debunk that I think someone should ---> The AIM120 (serial number evidence) is the one that blew WingGo's jet.

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 26 Mar 2019 23:07

Mort Walker wrote:Don't insult Gobbels. More like Baghdad Bob.

On the lines of Baghdad Bob, I can think of a couple of nickname for the ISPR Ghafoor:

1. Pindi Paindu
2. Pindi Ka Peepa ('Peepa' is the empty tin canister that is beaten with a stick to make a jarring noise.)

Which one do you guys like?

Thanks

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 26 Mar 2019 23:08

Prodyut Das is like a broken record. He has one and only one view to put forward and that is we should have made a slightly better Mig-21/Gnat instead of the Tejas and he will take any leaps of logic to arrive at his predetermined conclusion. I don't understand why we give credence to his views here any more.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 26 Mar 2019 23:15

looks a lot like an F16 to me...

gaurav.p · Post by **gaurav.p** » 26 Mar 2019 23:25

AdityaM wrote:This looks like the source video from which the flaming plane pic must have been sourced which was being used by Pakis to show that its a Su30

Doesn’t look like it’s related to mig21-F16 encounter

https://twitter.com/sayareakd/status/11 ... 98497?s=21

kTmFjbuAo9g

this is the video of turkey shooting down a ruski jet

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 26 Mar 2019 23:28

nachiket wrote:Prodyut Das is like a broken record. He has one and only one view to put forward and that is we should have made a slightly better Mig-21/Gnat instead of the Tejas and he will take any leaps of logic to arrive at his predetermined conclusion. I don't understand why we give credence to his views here any more.

To be honest, he is a disgrace. He has done more to advance foreign vendors cause and run down the LCA then most others. I stopped purchasing Vayu because it carried this fellows over the top claims regarding the LCA whilst playing up the JF-17 etc using the most ridiculous of claims.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 26 Mar 2019 23:28

Many sources claim that F-16 hurtles straight down like a lawn dart. 1st plane crash looks a lot like it's described.

Edit:

If Mig-21 wreckage looked like it was shown in pictures release by, then the plane shot down first can't be Mig-21 for sure. 1st crash is definitely F-16 and 2nd Mig-21. In 2nd video, the shape is looks more that of a F-16, not Mig-21.

Both videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ta9vyYh ... e=youtu.be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... TmFjbuAo9g

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 26 Mar 2019 23:31

Austin wrote:BTW Karan M check this video of IN Mig-29K from 7:20 onward it carries the R-77 and Elta 8222 EW pod on the port wing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhN7_L3R6uU&t=182s

Its a beautiful looking bird for sure. I hope they too get all the structural stuff fixed and remain in service for a long time, with decent uptime and Indian Uttam for their eyes, Indian astra, SAAW, Gaurav/Gautam on the wings.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 26 Mar 2019 23:48

Seems LCA Navy Mk2 team have learnt from the stabilizers on these Mig29K.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 27 Mar 2019 00:20

AdityaM wrote:This looks like the source video from which the flaming plane pic must have been sourced which was being used by Pakis to show that its a Su30

Doesn’t look like it’s related to mig21-F16 encounter

https://twitter.com/sayareakd/status/11 ... 98497?s=21\

Wait, that is clearly NOT a MiG-21 coming down in that video. That is a F-16!

PS: My bad, on closer inspection, it seemed to have a narrower wing with higher aspect ratio. Turns out to be a Russian Su-24 shot down by a Turkish F-16.

naird · Post by **naird** » 27 Mar 2019 00:23

Kartik wrote:
AdityaM wrote:This looks like the source video from which the flaming plane pic must have been sourced which was being used by Pakis to show that its a Su30

Doesn’t look like it’s related to mig21-F16 encounter

https://twitter.com/sayareakd/status/11 ... 98497?s=21
Wait, that is clearly NOT a MiG-21 coming down in that video. That is a F-16!

Isnt this video from syrian conflict ! this has been circulated in some other forums. Pakis have circulated it and claimed su 30

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 27 Mar 2019 03:54

Really does not resemble an su24
But looks can be deceiving

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Mar 2019 07:49

it is from syrian su24 incident. here is the same video from the official RT UK account

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyf3I4Y-jlo

vnms · Post by **vnms** » 27 Mar 2019 08:02

Kakkaji wrote: On the lines of Baghdad Bob, I can think of a couple of nickname for the ISPR Ghafoor:

1. Pindi Paindu
2. Pindi Ka Peepa ('Peepa' is the empty tin canister that is beaten with a stick to make a jarring noise.)

Which one do you guys like?

Thanks

Pindi Paindu

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 27 Mar 2019 08:04

PG for Pindi Gaandu. Oh wait: that is the entire PA HQ. And Shekhar Gupta below.

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 27 Mar 2019 09:49

Some previously unknown info here

Shekhar Gupta: What the IAF PAF dogfight reveals

Whether the Rafale deal is a scam or the best thing for India’s defence is for more eminent people to debate. Let me, meanwhile, list four facts emerging from the February 26-27 air skirmishes to bring the story of what should be called the real Rafale scandal.

*In the Rajouri-Mendhar sector air skirmish a day after the Indian Air Forces’ (IAF) successful Balakot strikes, the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) was able to create surprise and local superiority — technological and numerical — in a chosen battlefield. It struck in daylight when least expected, and perfectly timed to attack the changeover of IAF AWAC patrols. The outnumbered IAF pilots (12 aircraft of three vastly different types), scrambled from various bases, and showed the presence of mind not to walk into the ambush set for them, but they failed to deliver a deterrent punishment on PAF.

* Four Sukhoi-30s, the IAF’s most powerful air-superiority aircraft, were involved in the melee at beyond visual range (BVR). They were surprised by the PAF F-16s firing their American AMRAAM missiles from so far that their own radar/computer/missiles were not able to give them a “firing solution”. Translated: India’s best fighter, which constitutes half of the IAF’s combat force, was outranged and outgunned.

* Fortunately, two of the upgraded Mirage-2000s were on patrol. These have new French missiles (MICA, or Missile d’Interception, de combat d’autodefense), which are the exact peers of the F-16/AMRAAM. They were able to lock on to some of the PAF planes, which panicked into dropping their South African origin, stand-off weapons (SOWs) in a hurry, mostly missing the targets. Nevertheless, one fell in the middle of the Nowshera brigade headquarters compound. It was a closer call than we think.

* Surprised, and outnumbered, the IAF scrambled six MiG-21 Bisons from Srinagar and Awantipur. Since these climbed in the shadow of the Pir Panjal range, the PAF AWAC failed to detect them. Their sudden appearance at the battlefield upset the PAF plan. This was fortuitous.

It is only because of the IAF’s good training, situational awareness, and some luck that this audacious PAF mission failed. No ground target was hit. Its larger objective of luring vastly outnumbered and outranged IAF jets into a pre-set “killing zone” was the bigger failure.

Which brings us to our central question: Should we have even been having this conversation today if we had the military capability to match our economy (eight times Pakistan’s) and strategic ambition? February 27 reminded us that we don’t.

If we had a functional defence acquisition system, by now we would have built such a gap that Pakistan wouldn’t even dare to retaliate. Check out on a rarely-reported Mirage-2000 laser bomb raid to clear a Pakistani incursion across the LoC in Machil sector in 2002. Forget retaliation, the Pakistanis pretended nothing had happened. Indian air-to-air missiles then, on both Mirage-2000s and MiG-29s, had better range than the PAF, which ducked the challenge. Computers, radars and missiles decide the outcome in modern, mostly BVR, post-dogfight era air warfare.

How did India lose that edge?

This serial crime dates back to the Vajpayee government. In 2001, IAF projected the need of a new fighter to replace the MiGs. Its choice was more Mirage-2000s. Dassault was willing to shift its production line to India, the IAF knew the plane and loved it. By this time, the IAF would have had 6-8 more squadrons of the upgraded, Made-in-India Mirages with new missiles. The Rafale would probably not even be needed so desperately. PAF wouldn’t have dared to carry out the 27 February raid, and if it did, it would have been mauled. But then, George Fernandes, smarting under Coffingate and Tehelka, refused to go with a “single-vendor” deal. The full process for a new acquisition was launched.

We slept for a decade. The Pakistanis got their new F-16s and AMRAAM missiles from the US after 2010. Tactical balance in the air shifted. We, meanwhile, took until 2012 for a new fighter — Rafale — to be chosen. Except that defence minister AK Antony wouldn’t take a decision. Three of his negotiation committee of 14 dissented, so he set a committee above them. And he set up another committee of three outside “monitors” to supervise this committee. Finally, all inputs in, the choice was cleared. Sure enough, Antony ducked again.

He said three things at different times: Within the MoD, he then said, call fresh bids. To the media, he said he didn’t have headroom in the budget that year. And now, he told the media three weeks ago, that he put off the deal in the “national interest” since two eminent persons, Subramanian Swamy and Yashwant Sinha, had written letters pointing out problems in the deal and he had ordered an inquiry. He has since refused to talk about these letters even when chased by a reporter from The Print. The issue is too sensitive, he tells her. Chances are, his party knocked him on the head for nearly killing their Rafale story just to save his own neck. I will be pleasantly surprised if he talks about those letters again.

The earlier 126-aircraft MMRCA deal was dead by the time the NDA came in. The first wake-up call came early enough, with the Pathankot raid. As usual, the air forces were first off the blocks, and during aggressive patrolling, the IAF realised the PAF’s range superiority. It’s an unwritten story yet, but some MICA missiles were bought overnight, slung on Mirages which flew deliberately close enough for PAF to observe them. In the four years since, how many of our 40+ Mirages can even carry that missile? Don’t ask me for the truth because, as Jack Nicholson’s Marine Col. Nathan R. Jessep said in A Few Good Men, you can’t face the truth. Be grateful that those two on patrol on the morning of February 27 could .

As I promised, I am telling you about the real Rafale scandal without mentioning the Rafale deal. The Vajpayee government wouldn’t buy additional Mirages, scared of touching a single-vendor order. The MICA missile had first been sought by the IAF in 2001, the first only came in 2015 when Pathankot shocked the MoD to pull the file down from orbit. Existing Mirages then had to be upgraded. Two were upgraded by Dassault. HAL said it would do the rest. How many has it done yet? I warned you, you can’t face the truth.

Then it gets even more scandalous.

How did Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman cross the LoC? He was in visual pursuit of a PAF fighter for sure. But his controller was warning him to return. He didn’t. Because he couldn’t hear. As you’d expect in 2019, the battle zone had full radio-jamming. That’s why modern fighters have secure data links. Why didn’t that MiG have it? Ask the gallant bureaucrat of MoD who blocked the purchase for three years claiming that a defence PSU would make it. Don’t ask me his name, find out. You might learn another truth you don’t want to face.

That order has lately been placed. With Israel. Soon enough, all IAF fighters will have this secure data link. And you’d die of shame, when I tell you it is a purchase, worth a mere Rs 630 crore, less than half the price of one Rafale. We were lucky to lose just one MiG that day.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 27 Mar 2019 10:00

Wish Vidur was still here.

vimal · Post by **vimal** » 27 Mar 2019 10:03

Seriously OT but I would steer clear of any thing that Coupta writes. And that article was sourced from theprint.in which makes it even more suspect.
It is clear that his aim to spread disinformation and blame BJP and Vajpayee government instead of Congis who sat on all the files for 10 years.

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 27 Mar 2019 10:08

^Sir the Mirage story in MMRCA is well known and so is Athony’s criminal delays. No one is shocked to hear that.

I’m no Shekhar Gupta fan but he’s arguing on facts on MICA, upgraded Mirages, data links. Let’s confirm or disconfirm those!