MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Lalmohan » 28 Mar 2019 22:12

+2 eeries + tankers(?)
maybe thats all that were serviceable that day?

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Dilbu » 28 Mar 2019 22:14

Why saar? They were not responding to a threat. They had time to plan the attack when planes were ready.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Lalmohan » 28 Mar 2019 22:41

not really, they went the next morning with whatever they had ready to go

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby VKumar » 28 Mar 2019 22:44

ramana wrote:Looks like MEA protested to Sweden, South Africa and US that their weapons were used for aggression on India.
I know it looks like futile bleating :(( :(( but in diplomatic terms it s big deal.
next these countries could be banned from arms orders from India.
No longer tolerate selling weapons to both countries.


That would be wonderful!

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby pralay » 28 Mar 2019 23:08

Another Video. This time it seems like Horizontal Stabilizer of Mig21 or F7, can gurus confirm?

original video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqO1gy-KmhE


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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Arun.prabhu » 29 Mar 2019 06:01

Don't take the ISPR bloviating seriously. The very idea is stupid. Here you are, running a combat op against a numerical and qualitatively superior enemy and you know that there is a good chance he'll retaliate. So, what do you do? Get your entire fleet up in the air so that when he retaliates in a few hours time, your fleet is down on the ground refueling, getting maintenance work done, etc?

It's for idiots in Pakistan to gobble and hoot about. It's got no basis in reality.

habal wrote:PAF said their entire air farce was airborne on feb 27. It is their statement, again missed by coupta. Do we know how many PAF fleet was really airborne at that time apart from the 24, it will reveal the flight fitness level of their inventory.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Vivasvat » 29 Mar 2019 06:47

India Today: Pakistan's F-16 lie exposed

Pakistan's FM Quereshi said in Parliament that the second Pilot whom they were crediting after Siddiqui was Wg Cdr Nouman Ali Khan.

India today tracked down this Pilot's career using publicly available videos and pictures to prove that he is an active F-16 pilot with 2000 flying hours under his belt and only flies F-16s


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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Davidrock » 29 Mar 2019 09:09

pralay wrote:IMP IMP another video from Mirpur in this video
in opening frame it shows the smoke-trail of F16 shot down(flying direction from bottom of screen towards top ),
at 1:16.556 seconds you can see the Mig21 going down.
Also we can clearly hear an explosion and people saying "dusra dhamaka hua" and we can see mig21 going down.
The directions are now quiet clear and there are already videos of incident from 4 directions.



Don't worry about this video its probably not related. Last time I saw it was updated on 26feb, while the engagement happened on 27th feb.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby VikramS » 29 Mar 2019 09:25

Davidrock wrote:Don't worry about this video its probably not related. Last time I saw it was updated on 26feb, while the engagement happened on 27th feb.


That date depends on the location of the update so it is not reliable.

One thing struck me that the plane which went down in the fireball was falling nose down.

The Mig21 front part virtually landed on its belly as if it glided in. Even the flimsy nose cone was intact. There was no way the airplane in flames is the Mig21. Its front end would have been crushed including the nose cone.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Singha » 29 Mar 2019 10:53

confusion regarding date of twitter videos was also happening on 26-27 due to time zones of poster.
I would not consider it an issue if the diff is 26 vs 27 as you mentioned.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby pralay » 29 Mar 2019 12:58

I tried to make 3d rendering of the trajectories and all of the videos can be explained with it.
Sorry for my mediocre 3d skills though.

Mig 21 and F16 trajectories top view
Image
Video 2 view
Image
Video1 View
Image

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Rajiv Lather » 29 Mar 2019 13:30

Del.
Last edited by Rahul M on 30 Mar 2019 19:42, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: OT

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Kashi » 29 Mar 2019 14:14

deleted.
Last edited by Rahul M on 30 Mar 2019 19:42, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: OT

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Rajiv Lather » 29 Mar 2019 14:19

delete
Last edited by Rahul M on 30 Mar 2019 19:43, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: OT

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby negi » 30 Mar 2019 00:02

Thread has served its purpose ; time to close it ? Otherwise kindly bring Nukkad back :)

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Rahul M » 30 Mar 2019 17:17

PLEASE CONTINUE THE Mi-17 DISCUSSION IN THE MILITARY FLIGHT SAFETY THREAD. viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1393&p=2338634#p2338634

P.S. All posts regarding the Mi-17 crash have been moved to that thread as well.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby mmasand » 30 Mar 2019 18:30

deleted
Last edited by Rahul M on 30 Mar 2019 19:35, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: OT

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby ramana » 31 Mar 2019 03:40

KaranM, Close to 18000 impressions in 3 days.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby UlanBatori » 31 Mar 2019 04:53

So far after all the yadayadayada:
1. No wreckage or burning single crash site of the F-16: it evidently disintegrated in mid-air from the direct missile hit up its (never mind).
2. The con-trails posted above are very much very post-event: the earliest videos did **NO** show the following aircraft turning away very quickly. This is the key piece: WCdr AV locked on by skill, not technology, giving no warning of his whearabouts to the Pakis. Pakis were dashing home when he fired the missile. At THAT point the Pakis realized they were doomed - and did the only wise thing - hit the Eject button. 2 parachutes opened: ill-fated because they were beaten to death by POKis.
3. The MiG Pilot was shocked: As the missile caught up with the F-16, he fully expected a desperate post-stall maneuver to try to shake if off: Maybe an 86-degree climb towards the sun to confuse the IR seeker, or maybe a full-power turn and dive to confuse any optical seeker with ground clutter. SOMETHING. Instead the F-16 continued dead straight ahead - BECAUSE IT HAD NO PILOTS, duh!
4. So when the missile blew up, the MiG was coming directly towards the explosion at maybe Mach 2, and the explosion detonation wave spread out at Mach 3 maybe. No way at all to avoid debris. it is a miracle that only some small piece struck the MiG, disabling it, and not causing any major explosion or fire. The plane was cripped BUT WAS STILL LARGELY IN AERODYNAMIC FLIGHT. Most probably some piece entered the compressor and shattered blades. So! The MiG went into a steep, unpowered glide not a nose-dive or wingless flutter-down, This is the only way that the nose cone could have ended up flattened like a cardboard tube after Hasina Atim Bum sat on it. It was horizontal, sliding, fairy low descent-rate crash-landing. That is **NOT** a missile-struck wreck.
5. Obviously this crash site would be far from the F-16 debris shower.

So in conclusion: Only one Paki missile hit: that was the unfortunate helicopter. The MiG crash was due to Pakcowardice, which surprised even an expert such as WCdr AV. Though I think I would have done the same since the Pakis knew they were doomed. Their plane blew up into a million pieces and so would they have.

End of story. Straight combat: Single-seater MiG outflew and outfought a twin-seater F-16 with 2 PAF experts (pbuh) sharing the workload. All their exotic electronics and ECM failed them. Bloodyminded old Yindoo bravery won the day, as it did at El Alamein, Asal Uttar/ Khemkaran, Longewala, Uri. OK, Uri was night.

Meanwhile at Balakote we see that they have cleared away the body parts and rubble and put up temporary structures to take the Reuters cabbages and boobs around. Took only 5 weeks. :rotfl:

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby ramana » 31 Mar 2019 22:17

ramana wrote:KaranM, Close to 18000 impressions in 3 days.



KaranM, Rohitvats acknowledges your rebuttal of Couptaji.


https://twitter.com/KesariDhwaj/status/ ... 95360?s=19


Ramana, pass my regards to Karan. I've acknowledged his contribution in the foot note in the article.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 01 Apr 2019 01:18

Thanks R sir. All credit to you for getting it to the right people where it was useful. :)

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya G » 01 Apr 2019 01:59

Reading Rohit's article, I embarked on a "thought safari" by approaching the operation on 27/02 from the Pakistani perspective;

- Force level. The PAF thew everything at the operation on that day - every single fighter type was involved. I can only assume that the best squadrons were selected who in turn selected their best pilots. Must be strange for PAF to be in this situation as normally they expect to be defenders of their airspace! In hindsight they could have surprised IAF if they flew a smaller package of say Mirage-Vs each with 1 H-4 Raptor and launched them from safety of their airspace.

- They took only one day to mount the operation. What was the hurry? The IAF was obviously going to be on high alert. This tells me that the op was made for optics alone, to offset any pressure on them from Pak Army, Politicos or aam junta. As such, they just wanted to make a statement and effect did not matter. Compare this to IAF's deliberate approach and to attacking Balakot. Most importantly the Indian establishment took their time.

- Timing (broad daylight). As per Shekhar gupta this was timed with CAP patrols changeover. I think the reason could also be that the Raptor glide bombs work only during daylight.

- Choice of target. The logical option would have been to attack the IAF - even if we take it on face value that there was no damage intended - attacking a IA bde headquarters was plain stupid. I am guessing that PAF simply dusted off a ready and rehearsed plan and just executed it - after all they had only a day. What disturbs me the most is the thought - what if they had succeeded? the idiots would have pulled themselves into a full fledged war. Compare again to IAF who took care not to harm any civil or military target. They could have attacked a IA LoC post and hoped IA would cover it up?

- tactics. Letting off AMRAAMs doesn't impress. If they wanted to bag a Sukhoi then should have been more daring and let them come closer. Lets assume that 51 sqn MiGs did suprise them thanks to the radar shadow from the mountains - but surely they should have known? The fact they lost a F-16 to these very MiGs tells me their preparation was poor.

The only silver lining in this whole episode is that could successfully bring down a MiG-21. Luck was with them in that they got the pilot and whole attention was taken away from their failure of the previous night.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Guddu » 01 Apr 2019 03:24

Pakis should produce wing cmdr nauman...

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 01 Apr 2019 04:03

Aditya G wrote:- Force level. The PAF thew everything at the operation on that day - every single fighter type was involved. I can only assume that the best squadrons were selected who in turn selected their best pilots. Must be strange for PAF to be in this situation as normally they expect to be defenders of their airspace! In hindsight they could have surprised IAF if they flew a smaller package of say Mirage-Vs each with 1 H-4 Raptor and launched them from safety of their airspace.


Larger numbers complicate the defenders mission planning, can include decoys, you can also surge assets to thwart your opponent. There is also the issue of interoperability.
To me, its clear the F-16s work best with other F-16s (Link-16), whereas the Mirages and JF-17s likely have Chinese radios and gear to talk amongst themselves.

- They took only one day to mount the operation. What was the hurry? The IAF was obviously going to be on high alert. This tells me that the op was made for optics alone, to offset any pressure on them from Pak Army, Politicos or aam junta. As such, they just wanted to make a statement and effect did not matter. Compare this to IAF's deliberate approach and to attacking Balakot. Most importantly the Indian establishment took their time.


Agree. The humiliation had to be avenged.

- Timing (broad daylight). As per Shekhar gupta this was timed with CAP patrols changeover. I think the reason could also be that the Raptor glide bombs work only during daylight.


Yes and also with a large formation, coordination at night takes far more skill. They don't seem to plan for night ops with the same intensity as the IAF anyhow.

- Choice of target. The logical option would have been to attack the IAF - even if we take it on face value that there was no damage intended - attacking a IA bde headquarters was plain stupid. I am guessing that PAF simply dusted off a ready and rehearsed plan and just executed it - after all they had only a day. What disturbs me the most is the thought - what if they had succeeded? the idiots would have pulled themselves into a full fledged war. Compare again to IAF who took care not to harm any civil or military target. They could have attacked a IA LoC post and hoped IA would cover it up?


No, attacking the IAF meant crossing into Indian airspace, exposing themselves to far greater risk.

- tactics. Letting off AMRAAMs doesn't impress. If they wanted to bag a Sukhoi then should have been more daring and let them come closer. Lets assume that 51 sqn MiGs did suprise them thanks to the radar shadow from the mountains - but surely they should have known? The fact they lost a F-16 to these very MiGs tells me their preparation was poor.


Come closer and duel with a possibility of
a) losing aircraft to the Su-30s BVR (remember, larger radar, better performance vs EW)
b ) in merge, again Su-30 retains possible edge due to TVC + 2 pilots + Sura-K/R-73E combination.

They wanted to take minimum risk and hence salvo'ed AMRAAMs at maximal possible range. Even this would have worked against less skilled opponents. Because the F-16s could have guided the AMRAAMs in, problem is

A) The IAF deployed countermeasures and also flew the right kinematic profiles to defeat the AMRAAMs and
B ) They clearly targeted (went nose on + radar hot) on the F-16s in turn. The F-16s just couldn't guide the AMRAAMs in. Otherwise if they were just "defeating the AMRAAMs", the F-16s would have fired more, in order to get at least one Su-30 down.

Despite firing first, with a launch at 40-50 km (just look at the closure speeds), they simply couldn't guide the missiles in. Clearly indicates the Su-30s tried for BVR hits in turn and the F-16s had to break and try to get out of the Su-30s acquisition zones.
The Su-30s basically outflew and countermeasured the AMRAAMs, bought distance, turned around, went hot on the F-16s forcing them to disengage anticipating a missile shot. As they retreated with radios squawking of the Bisons imminent arrival, the Bisons came tearing in further accelerating their withdrawal plans.

The only silver lining in this whole episode is that could successfully bring down a MiG-21. Luck was with them in that they got the pilot and whole attention was taken away from their failure of the previous night.


Exactly. Its a mixed bag from PR perspective. Abhinandan's bravery got him a F-16 score but his MiG-21 loss gave them a propaganda victory. GOI's silence on the matter has been silly. Only reason I can think of is they dont want an escalation at election time. What? Why? Postpone the darn elections and give the Pakistanis a bloody nose. Of course, war can escalate and I am being glib.

From the air warfare perspective, nothing really worked out for the PAF.

A local superiority of 24 fighters to 12 IAF fighters (max. figures taken) and at one time, 24:6 - resulted in zilch.
The Su-30s even evaded multiple AMRAAM launches. So much for that silver bullet.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby chandrasekaran » 01 Apr 2019 11:00

If the govt. thought its better not to share too many details of the F16 till the election is over (or maybe forever), I think its a sensible decision for the following reasons.

#1. If there was an escalation and lets say postponement of the election was a definite possibility, I would reckon that few PIL would have been filed and the SC would have gladly taken them up. The BIF within would have done everything to ensure the govt is crippled of its decision making responsibility through the legal route and media route.

#2. A full fledged war would have meant body bags. All sort of media games would have been played to solely pin the govt for doing all this for election results, #Peace #Aman nonsense would have been peddled like no tomorrow. Just recollect the social media and MSM trends for that one day when Abhi was held in captivity.

#3. I am reasonably certain quid-pro diplomatic deals have been struck with US here. I see some of their recent moves to back up this conjecture including ASAT test response and the UN showdown with Cheen on Jaish.

The way I see Pulwama is that a big IED was laid for the govt. just before the election and the govt. thanks to Shri Modi's leadership has negotiated that mine field quite well.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby pralay » 01 Apr 2019 13:54

I have a question for gurus,
does the R73/aim120/aim9 sidewinder leave smoke trail before hitting target? at least in terminal stage?
Last edited by pralay on 01 Apr 2019 14:53, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby sudhan » 01 Apr 2019 14:07

pralay wrote:I have a question for gurus,
does the R73/aim120/aim7 leave smoke trail before hitting target? at least in terminal stage?


The burn times of A2A missiles are quite short..

An R73 would leave a smoke trail if the intercept happens within the duration of the motor burn. During an engagement at the upper end of its effective envelope, at max there could be a very light wispy trail.. Dont think it can be picked up from the ground easily.

AMRAAMs use smokeless rocket motors, not sure about the R77.. I believe, both of them are not suitable to be used at ranges where their rocket motors are still lit... So both should be smoke trail free at terminal stages..

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby pralay » 01 Apr 2019 14:20

and sidewinder aim9?
update: checked youtube videos of Aim9 it is also mostly smokeless with very light blackish trail which vanishes quickly

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Lalmohan » 01 Apr 2019 15:22

mostly boost-coast type of thrust profiles... i.e. big thrust at the outset (fuel burns out) and then on its losing kinetic energy, especially if it has to manoeuvre and drag starts to play a part

this is why meteor/ramjet is so very different

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby sudhan » 01 Apr 2019 16:14

pralay wrote:and sidewinder aim9?
update: checked youtube videos of Aim9 it is also mostly smokeless with very light blackish trail which vanishes quickly


Yes, AFAIK Sidewinders moved towards smokeless / Less smokey motors very early.. the AIM9s in the paki inventories must be at least the less smokey variety

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby ks_sachin » 01 Apr 2019 16:33

Karan, What exactly is a kinematic profile?

Not very good with jargon.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 01 Apr 2019 16:47

Speed and altitude of the aircraft and flying away in Directions to get out of range of missile and seeker, i.e change direction altitude which will burn energy , make the missile loose energy and be to far away for the missile seeker to lock on.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Sridhar K » 01 Apr 2019 20:41

One more thread on the battle by Sameer Joshi on twitter shared by Rohitvats
Clicky

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby parshuram » 01 Apr 2019 21:24

Sridhar K wrote:One more thread on the battle by Sameer Joshi on twitter shared by Rohitvats
Clicky


Sameer is a Former IAF fighter Pilot says

1. PAF surprised IAF by launching AAM’s from their side of border and there AAM’s did outranged ours !!

2. No IAF AWACS was station and they had ERIEYE posted only 100 from battle zone who was driving the battle

3. MKI never got a chance to go BVR

Intresting

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Zynda » 01 Apr 2019 21:32

Per the above tweets, it seems like PAF were hell bent on scoring a kill against MKI (as mentioned umpteen times by Karan et al). Also, does anyone else get the impression that PAF were more worried about M2KUPG rather than Su-30s? I guess the excellent anti-BVR training of IAF, along with good EW equipment saved the day.

I bet IAF can't wait for Astras to be inducted in larger numbers. Although, Abhi did bring down a F-16 using the R-73, I do believe that R-77 & R-73 combo may be a little bit long in the tooth. If induction of Astras can't be speeded up, perhaps it may not be a bad idea to order some RVV-SD & R-77-1s missiles in the interim for our 29UPG & Su-30 squads (at least for some of them if not for the entire fleet). Of course Roos will be looking to charge an arm & leg for expedited delivery schedules & what not.

Also, another priority perhaps is to try to get more M2Ks inducted from Qatar & other operators who are possibly looking to sell off existing stocks. M2KUPG ain't cheap but IAF loves the planes and it seems like our foes fear it even more.

Also time to order few more Netras. Now that Netra has been battle tested & proved its mettle, no reason to hold back & not order at least 3-4 more of her until our own desi AWACS is ready.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 01 Apr 2019 21:45

This is great. I am going to attempt to translate Sameer Joshi's stuff in more of our usual language.

Image

The Indian Air Force fought one of its most significant post-independence aerial clash with the Pakistan Air Force on 27 February 2019. This graphic is the most authentic sit rep on the attack axis, force packages and geographical locations of the engagement.


The PAF's North & South Axes were decoys, the Central axis was the main strike thrust - with F-16s using 1000 lbs LGBs, JF-17 the REKs and the Mir III/V the H2/ H4 SOW on 16 Corps targets. The PAF did not cross the LC anywhere.


Like I assumed, and AVM Subramaniam correctly noted, the F-16s did come in for a LGB strike. PAF's north and south axes were decoys - the 4x JF-17s on top, and the 4x Mirage 3/4 he notes were deception, but actually the graphic shows that they too could have deployed H2/H4 SOW.
The main aggression force though were the 4x F-16 as part of the JF-17/Mirage 3/4 central team and 4x F-16 as the single F-16 package in the central package.


The IAF urgently needs a host of upgrades from next generation aircraft, more AWACS for a two-front war, better EW, encrypted comm and long range air to air missiles of the Meteor class. The PAF has done well to upgrade its F-16 fleet in last 10 years.


Good plug for everything the IAF has on its wishlist. ;)

Just for the record, the Sukhois took on best that the PAF had to use against them, their superior training and tactics helping them avoid the infamous AMRAAM 'Pitball Bucket' in good order. By the time they turned hot, the F16s went cold.


My goodness, does it feel good to be validated or what? Exactly as I had predicted/guessed/worked out (take your pick) in the discussion, the Su-30s a) avoided the AMRAAMs and b) fought back against the F-16s after they avoided the missiles headed their way. To turn "hot" is to turn into the enemy, with your radar "hot" and the F-16s, ran "went cold".

The engagement lasted approx. 1000-1030h. By the time IAF's AWACS reached on station, vectoring 2 MiG-29UPGs and more Su-30MKIs towards the Rajouri area, the PAF had turned turtle, leaving in a jiffy after the F16 loss.


Turned turtle - i think the statement speaks for itself. Note though even as the Phalcons would have reached the station, they would have had a lot of SA, the radius (not dia) of their radar coverage is 400 km.

The JF-17 vs Mirage 2000 engagement took place North of J&K as the JF-17s tried to 'push' the M2000s in a 'Red on Red'. The JF-17's NRIET KLJ-7 PD radar did not do well against the M2000s. The JF-17s main job was to keep the M2000s tied up and not move south.

4x JF-17s vs 2x Mirage 2000s. The Mirage 2000's EW worked against the JF-17s.

A pair of M21 Bison was scrambled towards the north edge of the Central axis. Another pair was scrambled south west. Abhinandan was part of the SW vector.


2x MiG-21 against the strike package of 4xMirage 3/4, 4x JF-17, 4x F-16. While the numbers are low, it would have been done on the basis of seeing the radar plots, i.e. some of the fighters were already turning away, and the MiG-21s were insurance they wouldn't go deep into Indian territory for a strike.

The IAF did not have any AWACS on station, the PAF had a Saab 2000 ERIEYE 100 km at 30,000 feet, which controlled the battle space out to 150 Km+ inside India, guiding the HiTech F-16s positioning for Ambushing IAF jets in a designated kill zone in south J&K.


So, the IAF was vectoring aircraft from its IACCS which would rely on ground based radars (radars placed on high features, and regular Medium Power Radars) which would datalink their information to the IACCS and which in turn was controlling the fighters. Ref: Nitin Gokhale's article which backs this up. While we can crib about the lack of AWACS numbers, the other point is the IAF did have radars in place to back up its surveillance.

In central Axis, the the F-16s climbed to 40,000 feet and went supersonic. The JF-17s and Mir III/Vs released their payloads out of range due the threat of the M2000s north east of them, whom the JF-17s had not checked effectively


Basically, this speaks very very poorly about the quality of the PAFs fighter controllers and its JF-17 pilots, in that they had 12 aircraft in the air between the north and central axis (excluding the 4x F-16) and none of these fighters could mount a coordinated assault on the mere 2x Mirage 2000s patrolling. Any air to air combat is about locate, fix (box them in place), destroy. In this case, clearly, even with the Erieye, these PAF fighters could not effectively locate, let alone fix the Mirage 2000s.

The PAF carried out Comm jamming, which was effective in places. With no AWACS the the IACCS's vectored 2 Su-30MKIs towards Poonch Rajouri.


As mentioned in my revised writeup, the comm jamming was at best intermittent. Problem is the comm jamming threat will remain because ironically enough, its likely the PAF fields broadband noise jammers as part of its Blinders and these will jam all bands - so even frequency hoppers will be effected, but the PAF's jamming efficacy will reduce as aircraft maneuver out of the jamming zone (for maximum ERP density, any noise jammer has to focus its energy on specific sectors). So, this + terrain, means the jamming will be intermittent.

The PAF communication intercepted on the ERIEYE showed that the PAF was vary of the upgraded M2000s moving south


Like discussed above, the PAF simply couldn't locate the Mirage 2000s effectively or "fix" them. Ironically enough, for all the talk of encrypted comms, looks like we were happily listening to the PAF's comms. :lol:

There were 2x PAF 4 aircraft F-16 formations, one at 40,000 feet and the other undetected at 10-15,000 feet, approaching Nowshera. The plan was to fire the the first volley of AMRAAMS by the 4 F-16s at 40,000 feet, targeting the approaching Su-30MKIs


These are classic tactics of the kind we have discussed on BRF before, varying altitudes and mixes. The first group of F-16s locates and "fixes" the approaching Su-30s (boxing them in) whereas the second group, flying below, has the Su-30s flanked (ideally) and targeted against the sky (so max RCS) for an attack which plays to the missile/radar's strengths. Problem is the Su-30s didn't get "fixed" and as they turned into the 1st set of F-16s, the F-16s ran, and the 2nd set of F-16s then ran into the Bisons and didn't have an easy target in the Su-30s either which were free to maneuver.

As the Su-30MKIs would engage in defensive manoeuvring, the second formation of 4 x F-16s at 15,000 feet (which had just finished a LGB run), would target the Su-30MKIs with a second volley of AMRAAMs


As mentioned above.

The Su-30MKIs picked up the higher pair of F-16s at 35-40,000 feet and anticipated the launch in a 'Red on Red', also cautioned by the GC The Su-30s cranked to reduce their forward travel and being in a position to outrun the AMRAAM's kinematics.


Beautiful. This is where you have the training and sheer elan displayed by the Su-30 guys while facing large odds, kick in. They "cranked", i.e. turned away, to reduce their forward velocity - this means they maintained the highest distance possible between them and the F-16s to increase the distance the AMRAAMs would have to travel. And it would be interesting to see what speed the Su-30s were at, and if they actually used their TVC for this (possible @subsonic).

The Su-30MKI's did not get a launch command on their own R27 and RVV-AE AAMs due the differential in the snap up launch, with the F-16s going cold after launching their AMRAAMs


So, the Su-30s didn't go full cold and then hot. They didn't exit and then turn around. They cranked, turned back to re-acquire the threat once they achieved the distance to avoid an AMRAAM launch. But at this point, the F-16s had turned cold -i.e. they didn't guide their missiles in all the way or they figured out even after guiding their missiles in, that the AMRAAMs had failed. Either way, they did not want to stick around for a salvo back from the Su-30s, being afraid to duel the Su-30 MKIs despite their height differential! Exactly as I had surmised before. They either guided the AMRAAMs to the point wherein they perceived the Su-30s were going hot at them, i.e. their noses were back towards them (AWACS would be calling out the vectors of the Su-30s..) or guided the first set of AMRAAMs in (5 no less, saw it didn't work out, and moved out).

Note here that the F-16s were higher, they were too exposed to the lower Su-30s much the same way they wanted the Su-30s to be exposed to the 2nd group of F-16s. They simply didn't want to risk a Su-30 radar driven firing solution and this conclusively proves, again as we discussed, that this was a weapons solution issue, not anything to do with the quality of our radar or weapons control system.

Why, a weapons solution issue? Because, the R27 missiles, and R77 missiles have to climb up (snap up launch) and then race after the already racing away F-16s! Same issue with the AMRAAM, same issue with most AAMs of the 80-100 km class.

The timely cranking and the chaff helped the Su-30MKIs outmaneuver the AMRAAMs. 5 AIM-120C-5 s were fired on the Sukhois with no hit...


Wow. So much for the PAF and its BVR tactics and its invincible AMRAAM.

[i]Meanwhile Abhinandan and his No 2 closed into the lower pair of F-16s abeam Nowshera, who were climbing to 25,000 feet to target the Sukhois in a flanking move


And this is where all those idiots who were yacking about Abhinandan ignoring the GC etc need to just shut up.

It was a 'red on red' for Abhinandan as he was picked up, but pressed on his attack after manually locking his R-73 on a F-16. He fired and turned back. One F-16 was hit and went down. Abhi was hit by an AMRAAM fired by a F-16, ejecting successfuly


Red on red, he went into a hot situation knowing he was being painted and had weapons hot at him.

Three chutes were reported in the area, with widespread reporting by ISPR and Pal handles that they had three pilots in custody. A parachute with Indian colours was seen coming down. For info the C-9 chute on the F-16 seat has white, orange and green colours


And we can well guess what happened to the kafir F-16 pilots.

The PAF surprised the IAF by launching AAMs from inside POK. The AMRAAM effectively outranged the IAF AAMs, which did not get launch commands. Keeping the M2000s away from the F-16s was a priority for the PAF.


Yes, as mentioned above, the F-16s launched from higher & moved away fast (likely supersonic). In the same situation, the IAFs R77s would have effectively outranged the PAF AMRAAMs. You fire from a height downwards at speed, vs. vice versa.

Abhinandan's act of engaging the lower pair of F-16s disrupted their plan to shoot down an IAF Sukhoi. Abhi scored the first F-16 kill by a Mig-21.


Fairly clear.

The PAF achieved its aim in creating numerical superiority on the LC at a time when no IAF AWACS was in air, with only 8 IAF aircraft to oppose its daring attack. The small number of IAF pilots did well to fill the gaps in a timely manner.


And despite 3 vs 1 odds, was not able to achieve any real mission aims.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Singha » 01 Apr 2019 21:51

>> Also time to order few more Netras. Now that Netra has been battle tested & proved its mettle, no reason to hold back & not order at least 3-4 more of her until our own desi AWACS is ready.

one of the robert vadra cronies aka mr bhandari got some kickbacks off that small 3 plane deal as well. today he has properties and shell companies in london (proxying for others) and walks free , while embraer is barred.

https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/spec ... 2016-11-02

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/i ... 2019-02-09

they need to invoke national security concerns and right away order 6 more of the Netra awacs. I would not hold my breath on when if ever that giant A330 solution will come - not even talks have taken place just the huge chapatti is being designed. maybe idea is fit them E3 sentry or something because I do not see hide or hair of airbus in the herd.

in this war of pinpricks and ambushes you need small sharp destroyers of Netra type in numbers , not a Musashi class battlewagon that takes hours to get going .

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 01 Apr 2019 21:51

Zynda wrote:Per the above tweets, it seems like PAF were hell bent on scoring a kill against MKI (as mentioned umpteen times by Karan et al). Also, does anyone else get the impression that PAF were more worried about M2KUPG rather than Su-30s? I guess the excellent anti-BVR training of IAF, along with good EW equipment saved the day.


This is because the JF-17 fleet was simply unable to box in the Mirage 2000s. On the other side, they had 8x F-16s against 2x Su-30s whose position had been located, and the AMRAAMs were being sent in to "fix" them in place, while the 2nd F-16s launched more AMRAAMs. Whereas JF-17s were simply unable (lack of training or confidence in close in) to get to the Mirage 2000s. Just because the AI radars couldn't work well against the Mirage 2000s, they should have surged the assets with AWACS control for a close in fight. But PAF didn't want to risk any shootdowns over Indian territory, looks like. PR aware and risk averse, anyone?

I bet IAF can't wait for Astras to be inducted in larger numbers. Although, Abhi did bring down a F-16 using the R-73, I do believe that R-77 & R-73 combo may be a little bit long in the tooth. If induction of Astras can't be speeded up, perhaps it may not be a bad idea to order some RVV-SD & R-77-1s missiles in the interim for our 29UPG & Su-30 squads (at least for some of them if not for the entire fleet). Of course Roos will be looking to charge an arm & leg for expedited delivery schedules & what not.


Sorry, but *all missiles* Astra, AMRAAM latest blocks, R77-1, will struggle in the Snap Up domain against receding targets. The Meteor can try a tail chase, but the fighter has the advantage even so.

Also, another priority perhaps is to try to get more M2Ks inducted from Qatar & other operators who are possibly looking to sell off existing stocks. M2KUPG ain't cheap but IAF loves the planes and it seems like our foes fear it even more.


This was not about the Mirage 2000s per se. It was about the force sent to intercept the Mirage 2000s, the JF-17s - the pilots/AWACS control unable to direct them to do the job. If the first force was the F-16s vs Mirage 2000s (8x vs 2) then I am not sure things would be so sanguine until and unless the Bisons intervened there too.

Also time to order few more Netras. Now that Netra has been battle tested & proved its mettle, no reason to hold back & not order at least 3-4 more of her until our own desi AWACS is ready.


Yes, seriously. The IAFs hankering for the most expensive Phalcon has let it lose the opportunity to have an easier solution available easy.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Lalmohan » 01 Apr 2019 21:57

wonder if they knew that the IAF AWACS was not around. previous reports mentioned 'change of shift' timing of 1000...

Karan M
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 01 Apr 2019 22:04

^^ Its not that hard to be honest. They can predict based on when the Phalcon/Netra started its shift, on what it's endurance would be, and when the IAF's next AWACS would come in. Basically, the IAF got too predictable per the PAF. The IAF felt it had compensated since it anyhow had ground based radars in..

Next round, they will fix this issue.. be more unpredictable regarding shift timings, changeovers etc.


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