MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 03 Apr 2019 06:32

to add to Karan M list
11. Make MIRAGE 2000 UPG capable of Meteor (that will give us 51+36 planes capable of these deadly missile) - Per news already proposed
12. Solve whatever issues we have with R-77 (maybe an IAF/DRDO initiative with collaboration with Russia). I have a feeling that this may have already quietly happened -if not priority
13.Astra as mentioned - A desi supply of low cost but effective BVR missile (Even a missile with lower Kp- Initial batches will result in mission kill - No PAF plane will hang around to prove the lower Kp, they may become one stat that goes into that lower Kp)
14. Till S-400 comes, at least in JK and Norther Punjab few medium/long range SAM net, this will complicate PAF planning. Imagine if news of air 2 air engagement reaches, the long ranged SAM is fired against PAF planes hanging around or even receding but not far off. The long range SAM may have enough juice to chase and knock them out.
15. At least 5000-10,000 desi smart bombs (economical and numerous) - Used from far off and in enough numbers in opening phase of war to take out the enemy. If these bombs are self guided (GPS/Glanoss/IRNSS etc), so much better. LGBs are good, but releasing planes have to hang around.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 03 Apr 2019 06:55

The definitive recapitulation to date

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 03 Apr 2019 07:01

12. Solve whatever issues we have with R-77 (maybe an IAF/DRDO initiative with collaboration with Russia). I have a feeling that this may have already quietly happened -if not priority

Yes it has begun. BDL now has a tie up with R-77 guys to maintain and fix the missiles and folks are getting trained.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Apr 2019 07:29

There was a video of 2 f16 going at treetop level
These two might be the remnant of the 3 that had intruded and their comrade got r73 hit

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 03 Apr 2019 07:31

Karan M wrote:
12. Solve whatever issues we have with R-77 (maybe an IAF/DRDO initiative with collaboration with Russia). I have a feeling that this may have already quietly happened -if not priority
Yes it has begun. BDL now has a tie up with R-77 guys to maintain and fix the missiles and folks are getting trained.

That is good to hear. Even if the MKI's slowly move over to Astra, the Bisons and Mig-29's will continue to use R-77s.

Y I Patel · Post by **Y I Patel** » 03 Apr 2019 08:00

To add to Karan's list:

A new era of air warfare has finally dawned for India. AWACS, Refuelers, Com jamming, BVR... the big difference this time was TRAINING. Give newly minted IAF pilots the head start they deserve by reestablishing a Tejas OFTU. Let them learn the dark arts early and intensely.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Apr 2019 08:29

we need our own Nellis type instrumented range and internal Red Flag where upto 100 a/c from various IAF formations and can fly and train together atleast once annually. Kalaikunda with its ocean access may be the best.

PAF has already seen the need and split off a 8 plane 'aggressor squadron' for sargodha mushaf afb. we need something that best mimics the F16 and maybe the Mig29UPG is it.

all that we need is scattered around , needs a common strategy office to bring it all together for (a) training (b) products - munitions, EW and AWACS. run it as a unified composite strength index.

we need to emerge as the #2 most powerful air force in the world by 2030. Keep it as a goal.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 03 Apr 2019 08:35

Singha wrote:we need our own Nellis type instrumented range and internal Red Flag where upto 100 a/c from various IAF formations and can fly and train together atleast once annually. Kalaikunda with its ocean access may be the best.

PAF has already seen the need and split off a 8 plane 'aggressor squadron' for sargodha mushaf afb. we need something that best mimics the F16 and maybe the Mig29UPG is it.

all that we need is scattered around , needs a common strategy office to bring it all together for (a) training (b) products - munitions, EW and AWACS. run it as a unified composite strength index.

we need to emerge as the #2 most powerful air force in the world by 2030. Keep it as a goal.

IAF must be doing mixed training a lot already. Otherwise mixed formation tactics that were reported during Cope India would not have been developed or used effectively during those exercises.

As for F-16, the Mig-29 can mimic the kinematics (STR and high T:W ratio) but not its RCS and behavior in BVR. IAF would have gotten a better idea during exercises with RSAF F-16s. Unfortunately we're not at the stage where we can afford a small number of second hand Block 52's (if available) to build our own aggressor squadron. Khanland has till now avoided bringing F-16's to Cope India, in order to placate pakis no doubt. Perhaps they can be convinced to change their attitude.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 03 Apr 2019 09:36

Adding to Karan's list:

1) 1000s of Garudas, Saaw & Garuthmas: don't look for unobtanium & hundreds of hot weather/cold weather trials. If the darn thing works (which looks like it does), just induct it

2) Its not just the MOD/MOF. The IAF needs to wake up and change its attitude towards desi defence products. They saw Netra in action. No earthly reason to not induct 6 more, rather than wait for the gold plated AWACS that'll come in 2025. The enemy doesn't wait till we are ready

3) Erase the current ROE and rewrite it. like we did during Atlantique shoot-down. From now on, any PAF jet within 10 Km of LOC must be shot down. At least this must be the case when we get to Code Orange (post-Balakot type situation). This way, we prevent even the launch of glide bombs

4) Why just Tejas MK1a. Why not order more of Tejas MK1? Replace the Bisons (or even augment them) ASAP. Once again, IAF wants gold plated stuff while the Pakis (& I hate to say this) are slightly smarter about where they spend their IMF dollars and with their sense of urgency.

5) Get our XR-SAM into mission mode. There is no reason we cannot conduct the 1st trial of a 250 Km range SAM in 1 year flat + induction 1 year later. Even sooner is possible. We have every component in place: tracking radar, fire control radar, MMW seekers, booster+kill-vehicle etc. If we can do ABM and ASAT, we can do this. It doesn't have to be perfect. It will have massive deterrence value. If PAF know that they are painted by a FCR the moment they take off, they will sip chai and leave the fighting to the Pakjabi Army. If they know that even if they drop their glide bombs from within their side of the LOC, they will be chased by an XR-SAM all the way back to base, they will not pull off another Raptor stunt.

VikramS · Post by **VikramS** » 03 Apr 2019 09:41

Karan M wrote:
rohitvats wrote:I guess times like these calls for all hands on deck!
Welcome back.

I too have posted after years....

Have been sharing your blog with people

habal · Post by **habal** » 03 Apr 2019 12:39

So, how would the air battles have panned out had abhi not been captured ? Don't you think IAF would have launched a more befitting retaliation for nowshera. Can some interested in building scenario take a guess as to what would have happened if we didn't have a pow situation and retaliation for attempting to bomb a brigade hq was imminent.

how many functional erieye's do pakis have ? Just one ? They would have been definitely treading on thin ice, wouldnt they, if air hostilities would have continued in same tempo ?

MeshaVishwas · Post by **MeshaVishwas** » 03 Apr 2019 12:54

Just in: Jets seen flying over Mendhar in Poonch & in Rajouri in Jammu & Kashmir reports @WIONews's

https://twitter.com/sidhant/status/1113 ... 79520?s=19

V_Raman · Post by **V_Raman** » 03 Apr 2019 12:57

Karan M wrote:
V_Raman wrote:Cant we have aerostat style radars for 24/7 coverage?
yes, but they are very vulnerable to strikes as they are (relatively) fixed.

Sorry I accidentally reported your post instead of replying to it. I dont know how to unreport it. My apologies.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 03 Apr 2019 13:09

V_Raman wrote: Sorry I accidentally reported your post instead of replying to it. I dont know how to unreport it. My apologies.

Took care of it.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 03 Apr 2019 13:56

follow the link to see the thread

twitter

https://twitter.com/joe_sameer/status/1 ... 0188593155

Sameer Joshi @joe_sameer

The Indian Air Force fought one of its most significant post-independence aerial clash with the Pakistan Air Force on 27 February 2019. This graphic is the most authentic sit rep on the attack axis, force packages and geographical locations of the engagement.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 03 Apr 2019 15:11

Sir aap kab utthe?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 03 Apr 2019 19:27

Rakesh, Nachiket and KaranM

I think the thread has yielded all it can give.
We are now into wish list sharing.

I think we should close this thread after COB today.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 03 Apr 2019 19:31

I agree. Karan, your thoughts?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 03 Apr 2019 22:29

Let's keep it going for a while. I think we might get some additional information as well. Let's say till next week. If nothing new comes in, we can summarize and close.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 03 Apr 2019 22:34

Sounds like a plan.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 03 Apr 2019 23:51

I agree. Few more days then it should be done.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 04 Apr 2019 03:54

main kahoon to saala... character dheela hai...

Mahendra · Post by **Mahendra** » 04 Apr 2019 04:03

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 04 Apr 2019 04:05

Article is from the same Sameer Joshi twitter feed.

IAF Veteran Explains How Air Battle Over Kashmir Unfolded On 27 February
https://swarajyamag.com/defence/iafs-fo ... um=twitter

Rishi · Post by **Rishi** » 04 Apr 2019 05:19

Unseen Feb27 upload from "Azad Kashmir" some kid.

Can't make out much. Can anyone read the title slide caption in Urdu

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 04 Apr 2019 07:02

Going through the reports I think there was a small tactical mistake from the IAF after AMRAAM launches and Abhinandan engaging the F-16. At this point the other Mig 21 Bison or Su30, should have launched R-77 s at D1 max at the other F16's who would have dispersed and not got a lock on his Mig 21. This would have possibly saved Abhinandan, yes a few R77 would have been wasted but anyway the remaing 3 missiles on Abhinandan's fighter were anyway wasted.
Then again hindsight is a good thing and decesion makers had 30 secs to do this decesion and waste R77s andbreak ROE's, not easy for disciplined airforce .
The IAF probably never war gamed these half peace half war scenarios with PAF which is extraordinary.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 04 Apr 2019 09:22

Aditya_V wrote:Going through the reports I think there was a small tactical mistake from the IAF after AMRAAM launches and Abhinandan engaging the F-16. At this point the other Mig 21 Bison or Su30, should have launched R-77 s at D1 max at the other F16's who would have dispersed and not got a lock on his Mig 21. This would have possibly saved Abhinandan, yes a few R77 would have been wasted but anyway the remaing 3 missiles on Abhinandan's fighter were anyway wasted.
Then again hindsight is a good thing and decesion makers had 30 secs to do this decesion and waste R77s andbreak ROE's, not easy for disciplined airforce .
The IAF probably never war gamed these half peace half war scenarios with PAF which is extraordinary.

At max range R-77 will require continuous guidance by Su-30, until its terminal phase. And that would have required them to remain on station. Without a radar lock, or any MAWS warning on, F-16 would not have disengaged.

IMHO IAF is trained enough to know when to engage with R-77.

On the other hand, if these fighters were engaged using SAM batteries it would have been a different case. Not sure why no SAM engagement happened, or maybe not disclosed to public.

mmasand · Post by **mmasand** » 04 Apr 2019 09:27

Rishi wrote:Unseen Feb27 upload from "Azad Kashmir" some kid.

Can't make out much. Can anyone read the title slide caption in Urdu

AJK mein PAF ne India ka shikar kaise kiya - asli video.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 04 Apr 2019 09:30

Singha wrote:we need our own Nellis type instrumented range and internal Red Flag where upto 100 a/c from various IAF formations and can fly and train together atleast once annually. Kalaikunda with its ocean access may be the best

Already there at Jamnagar, Gwalior and Kalaikunda.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 04 Apr 2019 09:44

Aditya_V wrote:Going through the reports I think there was a small tactical mistake from the IAF after AMRAAM launches and Abhinandan engaging the F-16. At this point the other Mig 21 Bison or Su30, should have launched R-77 s at D1 max at the other F16's who would have dispersed and not got a lock on his Mig 21. This would have possibly saved Abhinandan, yes a few R77 would have been wasted but anyway the remaing 3 missiles on Abhinandan's fighter were anyway wasted.
Then again hindsight is a good thing and decesion makers had 30 secs to do this decesion and waste R77s andbreak ROE's, not easy for disciplined airforce .
The IAF probably never war gamed these half peace half war scenarios with PAF which is extraordinary.

There were two groups of F-16's in 2 different places. The ones which fired AMRAAMs at the Su-30's are not the ones engaged by WingCo Abhinandan. There were no Su-30's nearby to fire on the second group. Only one who could have interfered with the F-16 which fired on the WingCo was his wingman. We don't know where he was exactly during the engagement. But since they were outnumbered 2:1 he was probably evading (successfully) another F-16.

Rishi · Post by **Rishi** » 04 Apr 2019 09:54

mmasand wrote:
Rishi wrote:Unseen Feb27 upload from "Azad Kashmir" some kid.

Can't make out much. Can anyone read the title slide caption in Urdu

AJK mein PAF ne India ka shikar kaise kiya - asli video.

Thank you. Could see 3 different contrails... Doenst mean anything though. I suspect this video is already seen?

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 04 Apr 2019 10:54

I know R-77 at Dmax range would miss, it all happened very fast , the IAF probably would have trained for this No war no peace scenario, but the other Mig 21's could have released thier R-77's so any other PAF aircraft would have disengaged.

I guess this reinforces the need ( especially not noted by all Babus and Politcos) of having quality AAM's in BVR AAM's in numbers. I clealry felt the UPA Govt dropped objections to Sale of AMRAAMS to Pakis, they could have at least protested to make the numbers 100 or so Pakis need to use them only in a complete war scenario.

I hope we have got some new tactics so that we can deal such PAF stunts and bring material losses on them.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 04 Apr 2019 14:35

Aditya_V wrote:I know R-77 at Dmax range would miss, it all happened very fast , the IAF probably would have trained for this No war no peace scenario, but the other Mig 21's could have released thier R-77's so any other PAF aircraft would have disengaged.

I guess this reinforces the need ( especially not noted by all Babus and Politcos) of having quality AAM's in BVR AAM's in numbers. I clealry felt the UPA Govt dropped objections to Sale of AMRAAMS to Pakis, they could have at least protested to make the numbers 100 or so Pakis need to use them only in a complete war scenario.

I hope we have got some new tactics so that we can deal such PAF stunts and bring material losses on them.

Again, ARH or even IIR missiles are not obedient follow the instructions kind of weapons for instance, guns are. Once unleashed you don't know where these missiles will go and what target they will hit. At best, you cue them to a region, with the radar ensuring the missile keeps going to the region, where the target is, and the missile then homes in on that target. But what if in a maneuvering fight, that target and your wingman are closely located, and the target moves and by the time the missile arrives, your wingman is in the way? Guess what, the missile will go for this new target that's now in its kill box as and when its seeker went active. And if you blindly, without radar guidance salvo R77s into an area where your peer is charging into, even worse.

So, while he was chasing the F-16s, there was likely no time for the Bisons to randomly and (uselessly) salvo R77s as he went red on red, his counterparts were punching countermeasures and breaking the lock, and second, it would have been risky thereafter for them to blindly salvo.

Final point, the IAF has a substantial stock of missiles in service. Without getting into specifics, it dwarfs the AMRAAMs available to PAF. The difference is, our guys know BVR combat well and are better trained in it, they know there is no point in blindly salvo'ing ARHs. Today, you have a F-16 kill and a Bison loss. Can you think what would have happened if the Bison had been shot down by another Bison, even as it maneuvered to get a F-16 kill.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 04 Apr 2019 14:39

Ok yes probably point taken. But one lesson from 70 years is Pakis hide thier losses on ground or in the Air. IAF will have to come up with weapons and tactics where the PAF stays well away from the LOC or IB.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 04 Apr 2019 14:49

That's why i suggested heavy EW so they will be "blind" as they approach us. Blind their AWACS, jam their R/T and datalinks.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 04 Apr 2019 15:01

The fact Abhinandan chose R-73E instead of R-77 shows a lot of maturity in avoiding friendly fire from a BVR shot in a melee.

Over Afghanistan a Pakistani F-16 wingman shot down the F-16 leader in his eagerness for a kill.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 04 Apr 2019 15:21

And the presence of the S-400 will automatically put a lot of PAF assumptions at risk.

The S-400 has 400 km ranged missiles which will follow a ballistic (i.e. plunging) trajectory which will optimize their radar look down view. Now, the best PAF AWACS is the Erieye with a range of 300 - 400 km. The aircraft typically stay within 150km in Pakistan, while monitoring upto 200 km into India. With the S-400, a mobile system, having launchers located anywhere upto 100 km from the LOC (out of range of PA arty and so forth), we impose another standoff of 200-300 odd km on the Pakistani Erieyes.

The second missile added to the S-400 is the new 40N6, a long range weapon with a cited range of 215 nautical miles, equipped with an active and semi-active homing seeker, intended to kill AWACS, JSTARS and other high value assets, such as EA-6B/EA-18G support jammers. Further details of this weapon remain to be disclosed. The range improvement to around twice that of the 48N6E2 suggests a two stage weapon, or a much larger motor casing with a larger propellant load. Russian media reports citing PVO senior officers in 2010 indicated that 40N6 range may be a great as 240 nautical miles, and the missile completed State Trials (Russian OpEval) in 2010, and was to enter production. To date no images of the 40N6 missile, launcher container or TEL have been made public.
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-S-400-Tr ... ocId843249

Every Km pushed back by the S-400 is a km the PAF operates blind in India.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Apr 2019 15:30

a league of shadows member who does not wish to be named has informed that reason PAF chose 10am in the morning is to restrict the IAF from bvr engagements as civilian air traffic would be in the air on our side, while theirs had been closed the previous day and all-clear. other than amritsar , there are no night civil flights to any apt north of delhi, so a night attack would have permitted iaf greater freedom.

nobody starts an air campaign at 10am in the morning without good reason. every nato bush war/OIF/ODS has started in the late evening or night.

the other small factor could be they expected to bag some iaf planes and wanted cellphone videographers (incl their own moles) up and alert.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 04 Apr 2019 18:05

more and more the logic towards a significant growler fleet becomes imperative
isnt one of the Su30 mission profiles/fit out a bit growlerish? (growler ka beta)

nam · Post by **nam** » 04 Apr 2019 18:23

Aditya_V wrote:Going through the reports I think there was a small tactical mistake from the IAF after AMRAAM launches and Abhinandan engaging the F-16. At this point the other Mig 21 Bison or Su30, should have launched R-77 s at D1 max at the other F16's who would have dispersed and not got a lock on his Mig 21. This would have possibly saved Abhinandan, yes a few R77 would have been wasted but anyway the remaing 3 missiles on Abhinandan's fighter were anyway wasted.
Then again hindsight is a good thing and decesion makers had 30 secs to do this decesion and waste R77s andbreak ROE's, not easy for disciplined airforce .
The IAF probably never war gamed these half peace half war scenarios with PAF which is extraordinary.

Srinagar airbase is in the valley, jets have to jump over the mountains to reach loc. Cannot fire BVR

Probably the reason PAF would not have seen the MIGs coming. Else why would they allow it to come so close while lasing a lgb? They would have fired Aim120 at longer distance?

The F16 probably tried to run back when the mig21 suddenly appeared, while on the other hand, we knew exactly where the F16 were. Once in WVR the HMS would have a easier lock, than the radar.