MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

nam · Post by **nam** » 05 Apr 2019 12:30

esommuk wrote:Balakote was not a clandestine operation. It was owned up by GOI and an announcement made. So was the aerial skirmish over LOC. Then why this smokescreen of secrecy when it comes to owning up and proving the kill and/or F16 involvement?

May be because the objective is not TV rating or PR war? rather punishing terrorist & Pak. No?

esommuk · Post by **esommuk** » 05 Apr 2019 12:33

To sell F16s, F21s or F18s India is not the only market for US. The situation is not so helpless for the US manufacturers .... yes IAF is in dire straits for new fighters!

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 05 Apr 2019 12:34

Will wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:
Exactly both GOI and forces are now being called liars, they need to come out now and get the truth out and and official communication from the Sd/Pentagon, this will be collasal blunder to let this pass.

Our forces credibility takes a huge dent, the GOI cant sit idle, the FP article is being provocative. They cant get away with calling IAF liars.

If things stay as it is large % of Indian public will start doubting our forces.
It’s the usual crap of quoting “sources”. Agree with the above that the GOI needs to come out and back the IAF by either putting out evidence or putting pressure on the US for an “official” statement . India has leverage through MMRCA 2.0. If not kick both the US planes out of the competition.

As much as one might not want to acknowledge it, India is way behind in the information war.

Let’s get this jingo myth out of the way. The US doesn’t need India’s defence deals. India needs them. Those that are saying India would be a fool to buy US equipment, ignore some of that equipment is top class and provides us capabilities that our enemies can’t have e.g. MH-24. Even financially, we’re a tiny droplet when compared to USD 1 trillion combined defence budgets of NATO countries. Let’s be real.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 05 Apr 2019 12:35

Yes usa media always speaks truth. We saw how cnn, nyt , fp all were saying Trump Will win .... I don't know why Trump called media liar after winning.

Disgusting people like arun never trusted word of our side, but one pathetic liar amrikan media names unknown source and becomes Bramhasatya...

This is a lie by usa, who are a LYING nation, REMEMBER "Iraq-saddam Hussein-weapons of mass destruction" ... how amrikan foreign secretary lied in uno? And later this lying genocidal nation shamelessly accepted lying with shrug of shoulders ...

Some dirty minds claiming to be nationalists over-analyse doubt statements from our side but accept foreign sources straighaway...

They want patriotic govt out that reversed mms govt signing away our right to store food ...

They want this govt out that shut down so many thousands of USA funded NGOs

esommuk · Post by **esommuk** » 05 Apr 2019 12:35

nam wrote:
esommuk wrote:Balakote was not a clandestine operation. It was owned up by GOI and an announcement made. So was the aerial skirmish over LOC. Then why this smokescreen of secrecy when it comes to owning up and proving the kill and/or F16 involvement?
May be because the objective is not TV rating or PR war? rather punishing terrorist & Pak. No?

It is not about TV or PR but transparency to citizens. It is all about probity!

Bharadwaj · Post by **Bharadwaj** » 05 Apr 2019 12:37

That so called top class equipment becomes a dud when the SD and Pentagon deep state favor the Porkis in a all out conflict.

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 05 Apr 2019 12:40

^ says who? We got unprecented support from US over our right to self defence. No condemnation for Balakot. No high profile Armitage style visits to both capitals. And a UNSC proposal authored by US to ban the JeM leadership. There’s not a figment of support or favour to the Porkis.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Apr 2019 12:41

my honest advice to crybabies and dhoti shiverers is to leave brf (a sabbatical) and return on may23.

if you cannot handle hybrid war, you will only lose your peace of mind. and it will be in high gear now with april11 GE a week away

gotus is no longer one unit, its split into factions and DT his own faction.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 05 Apr 2019 12:42

Exactly, now that FP has decided to run this article, we must work to get an official statement from Sd/Pentagon whatever that the report is incorrect. That at least can be expected.

habal · Post by **habal** » 05 Apr 2019 12:42

Contrary to what some members feel, India denying US equipement due to lopsided priorities of SD is a big deal, because there are many US allies and other nations who will be watching and will take a call based on India's choices. Like it or not India is an opinion leader for many neutral folks. Nations like brazil malaysia, singapore, Korea will henceforth prefer French rather than US equipment because of such express duplicity.

FRENCH will be a big victor in this.

negi · Post by **negi** » 05 Apr 2019 12:44

Official statement from Pentagon ? Like Nasa gave one few days ago on our ASAT test ?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Apr 2019 12:44

whether they make a official statement or not SD/Pentagon is their own business. they will make it if they see some value to their own cause.

other than that , there is no need for GOI to respond to any article quoting unnamed sources.

nam · Post by **nam** » 05 Apr 2019 12:48

esommuk wrote:
nam wrote:
May be because the objective is not TV rating or PR war? rather punishing terrorist & Pak. No?
It is not about TV or PR but transparency to citizens. It is all about probity!

Lets see, on one side we have Pak, who has a history of lying with a straight face.

On the other hand we have IAF, which has openly admitted it is looking in to case of blue on blue regarding the Mi17, although it could have quiet easily hidden it.

For the citizens, it is very clear whom to trust.

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 05 Apr 2019 12:48

Aditya_V wrote:Exactly, now that FP has decided to run this article, we must work to get an official statement from Sd/Pentagon whatever that the report is incorrect. That at least can be expected.

Hope we don’t do this. No need to run to US to correct perception about our own operation. GoI/IAF can do what they did with Balakot - selectively show the proof to journalists or even friendly nations. I’m sure we’ve satellite pics of the spot where the F16 crashed, since we know the area that Abhinandan was in. Or we can release the name of the pilot that we claim to know. Neither of those compromise classified capabilities.

“nam” wrote:On the other hand we have IAF, which has openly admitted it is looking in to case of blue on blue regarding the Mi17, although it could have quiet easily hidden it.

I agree on the trust part, but a nitpick that IAF hasn’t officially admitted its looking into blue on blue. Newspaper reports have attributed this to “sources”. Happy to learn Iif I’m mistaken.

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 05 Apr 2019 12:59

One FP article and dhoti shiver starts. Psyops from all sides onlee. All un-named sources should not be believed (whether desi or phoren) given the way how things have panned out in media worldwide especially amreeka. Heck even named sources in amreekan political landscape lie.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 05 Apr 2019 13:01

Since when has US SD become the altar of truth that everyone wants them to back our position now in this? And tomorrow if SD gives a presscon with a we can neither confirm nor deny, how does that do anything to our position?

nam · Post by **nam** » 05 Apr 2019 13:03

Ofcourse, Pentagon and SD will say, we don't comment on operational details of countries having US kit. what will the jumping jacks do then? They will say can we publicly disclose details about US kit in India? what will be our response?

Gosh, this was expected from day 1, why are people so miffed.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 05 Apr 2019 13:06

anyway, my sources (nihariwala) tell me that the US count found a hanging chad

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 05 Apr 2019 13:07

Ya allah, FP article was about F-16 and people here somehow start questioning the Balakot strikes? If this is the situation on BR I can only imagine what it is elsewhere.

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 05 Apr 2019 13:11

A PAF F-16 two-seater with two pilots was shot down by W/C Abhinandan in his MiG-21 Bison on the morning of 27 Feb.

DGISPR of the terrorist nation has posted about 2 a/c and 3 pilots. 1 a/c and 2 pilots are PAF.

https://www.dawn.com/news/1466347

If some unnamed US official is lying to save PAF embarrassment, it just speaks volumes about those lying and those spreading the lies. The liars are showing themselves. More useful information for us.

nam · Post by **nam** » 05 Apr 2019 13:12

Pak can hide as much it wants, US can help it cover up as much it wants. The reality remains it lost a F16 in return of Mig21.

In round 2, PAF will going in to air knowing it's primary weapon Aim120 may have been defeated and it still needs to face R77, Derby & Mica. Potentially Meteor.

If Paks believe they won this round, Pak will be under more pressure to "defeat" us next time. This is what we want.

dipak · Post by **dipak** » 05 Apr 2019 13:19

esommuk wrote:
nam wrote:
May be because the objective is not TV rating or PR war? rather punishing terrorist & Pak. No?
It is not about TV or PR but transparency to citizens. It is all about probity!

dipak · Post by **dipak** » 05 Apr 2019 13:20

My comment went unpublished in above post - I just wanted to congratulate you on successfully sounding like DDM, Paki gora media. Same argument by the sickular-commie gang.

nam · Post by **nam** » 05 Apr 2019 13:22

This must have deliberately leaked to allow US to comment on it. US may comment it can account directly sold/ sold using it's aid. It will leave a bit a ambiguity allowing both Pak & India to claim it is correct.

US is good at such things.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 05 Apr 2019 13:23

Does the US count all F-16s, including the older ones and ex-Jordan airframes? The strict monitoring was only for the new Block 52 units

la.khan · Post by **la.khan** » 05 Apr 2019 13:24

Nitpick: When were these F-16s counted? Foreign Policy does not mention a date when the US counted paki F-16s. Was it before 26th Feb., 2019 or after?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 05 Apr 2019 13:40

Nikhil T wrote:Let’s get this jingo myth out of the way. The US doesn’t need India’s defence deals. India needs them. Those that are saying India would be a fool to buy US equipment, ignore some of that equipment is top class and provides us capabilities that our enemies can’t have e.g. MH-24. Even financially, we’re a tiny droplet when compared to USD 1 trillion combined defence budgets of NATO countries. Let’s be real.

What exactly is in the F-16 or F-18, that's not in the Rafale or EF?
Second, what portion of the USD 1 Trillion combined NATO budget goes to buy US rather than domestic gear?

esommuk · Post by **esommuk** » 05 Apr 2019 13:41

dipak wrote:My comment went unpublished in above post - I just wanted to congratulate you on successfully sounding like DDM, Paki gora media. Same argument by the sickular-commie gang.

When logic runs out name-calling begins. It is kind of sad!

GOI has to provide credible evidence to its citizens on downing and use of F16 in the aerial skirmish ... and GOI means the political masters and the sly 'babudom' which permeates through every strata of civilian government. Military officers are brave-hearts who put their life and well being at risk to defend the nation - they deserve salute on every count.

But the government has to be transparent to its citizens - we do not live in a single party state or ruled by dictator!
_________________________-

Your agenda is obvious and unwelcome. You have been warned. Keep these sly insinuations up, and you will enjoy a ban as well.

Regards
Km

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 05 Apr 2019 13:42

Aditya G wrote:Does the US count all F-16s, including the older ones and ex-Jordan airframes? The strict monitoring was only for the new Block 52 units

they count everything in detail and monitor usage

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 05 Apr 2019 13:43

Yawn! Hurting John Doe wanting to do a equal-equal with Ivan for all their material on how a old mig-21 took down a f-16. Typical Indian mentality seeking validation from gora on the kill and the typical Paki mindset of wanting to eke out H&D where it doesnt exist. It doesnt matter what the US Govt or US mil-ind complex says. If GOI and IAF say something then it is "Veda-vakku" for me. Now to sit back with the popcorn and see the Paki economy go into a tailspin with glee.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 05 Apr 2019 13:43

Singha wrote:my honest advice to crybabies and dhoti shiverers is to leave brf (a sabbatical) and return on may23.

if you cannot handle hybrid war, you will only lose your peace of mind. and it will be in high gear now with april11 GE a week away

gotus is no longer one unit, its split into factions and DT his own faction.

well said. the verbose gyan about being "taxpayers", about "probity" etc etc is becoming farcical, goodness one such news and the truth about some of our folks just jumps right out.

kvraghav · Post by **kvraghav** » 05 Apr 2019 13:45

When Kargil war happened, the US refused spares for the sea king helicopters. The helicopters had to sit out the entire war. Is this the kind of support we are talking here?

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 05 Apr 2019 13:46

esommuk wrote:GOI has to provide credible evidence to its citizen on downing and use of F16 in the aerial skirmish ... and GOI means the political masters and the sly 'babudom' which permeates through every strata of civilian government. Military officers are brave-hearts who put their life and well being at risk to defend the nation - they deserve salute on every count.

It was the military leadership, more specifically the vice air-marshall, a military officer, who announced that IAF had downed an F-16. NOT the GoI.

esommuk wrote:But the government has to be transparent to its citizens - we do not live in a single party state or ruled by dictator!

Sure, let us ask the government how many of our spies are operating in Pakistan and while we are at it, their phone numbers and emails as well, so that we may thank them for safeguarding our freedom.

Parasu · Post by **Parasu** » 05 Apr 2019 13:51

Ridiculous, its just one US media saying stuff from their hats.
And the desi dorky media doing what it does best.

So, we dont trust IAF but we trust some random media house from a vested interest land. Wow!!

For me, its just a clickbait article.

dipak · Post by **dipak** » 05 Apr 2019 13:51

esommuk wrote:
dipak wrote:My comment went unpublished in above post - I just wanted to congratulate you on successfully sounding like DDM, Paki gora media. Same argument by the sickular-commie gang.
When logic runs out name-calling begins. It is kind of sad!

GOI has to provide credible evidence to its citizens on downing and use of F16 in the aerial skirmish ... and GOI means the political masters and the sly 'babudom' which permeates through every strata of civilian government. Military officers are brave-hearts who put their life and well being at risk to defend the nation - they deserve salute on every count.

But the government has to be transparent to its citizens - we do not live in a single party state or ruled by dictator!

Transparent to what extent, what will satisfy you or others out there? If GOI issues statement, categorically mentioning the F-16 kill, why is it not sufficient for us to believe, and on the other hand we are ready to believe some unnamed gora media source?
Why should GOI be burdened to back up with evidence ...and even if tomorrow it comes out with some evidence, even that evidence can be questioned in one way or the another.

For me, its ok if the GOI has not turned up with the evidence to satisfy to my heart's content. There must be some good reason for such.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 05 Apr 2019 13:53

Kashi, well said.

Essomuck and others, BRF does not exist to hand hold your ignorance and then sit and waste its time on your obvious trolling. Shape up or ship out, your choice. Others, make your points clearly without bellyaching and trying to drive a wedge between the GOI and the forces. This is bharat-rakshak, not some gora-saheb fetish forum wherein we unquestioningly swallow some bilge in any foreign report.

Most of us are old enough to know the amount of propaganda engaged in on behalf of Pakistan whenever there was an Indo-Pak conflict by these jokers and their sources writing in these rags and websites. If you don't have the self-confidence, self-respect or ability to trust your own people in the IAF, then this is not the forum for you.

Second, you are not doing India any favor by paying taxes, so stop bragging about it or demanding some extra special treatment because of it. Everyone of us on the forum, more or less, is paying taxes and those taxes pay for that very equipment which is being used to defend our privileged hides. If anything, we may even need to contribute more to get the right kind of defense. Grow up.

esommuk · Post by **esommuk** » 05 Apr 2019 14:00

Your agenda is obvious and unwelcome. You have been warned. Keep these sly insinuations up, and you will enjoy a ban as well.

Regards
Km

Please go ahead and ban me Sir.

----------

Thank you. Done. And don't go around quoting religious scripture on a topic which you know nothing about.

dhyana · Post by **dhyana** » 05 Apr 2019 14:01

I've been a lurker for some time, and have just a low post count. I guess I'll add my own humble opinion: I've noticed lots of 'huffing and puffing' about how we must have all the information spoon-fed to us. Why? To what end?

Does the US or Israel or anybody else reveal all their methods for all to see? Did this article quote a specific official top-level SD or DOD source, or was it just some more anonymous blather?

Similarly, must I know the name and address of the mission leaders for the Balakot strike? It's still upsetting thinking about those worthy articles spilling every personal detail about WC Abhinandan in the first couple of hours.

We need a better, more structured media response, but we don't have to respond to every nonsense story out there.

pattnayak · Post by **pattnayak** » 05 Apr 2019 14:10

esommuk wrote: But there is a space beyond this forum and that space is all about morality and transparency xx verbose rubbish deleted.!

My God that is some grade A virtue signalling right there. This space beyond this forum, can I get the address?? Would love to go there to get gyaan on "morality and transparency" that seems to be in abundance in this garden of eden.

nam · Post by **nam** » 05 Apr 2019 14:16

esommuk wrote: Please go ahead and ban me Sir. It is afterall your fiefdom.

xx rest of the verbose cr@p deletedxx

I take this rule of morality applies only to GoI, which has to reply to some "source" based news? Never saw the morality been thumbed at US government, whose agent was found to be part of the group that massacred 100s of Indian citizen on 26/11.

Well GoI will say we will stand by our claim. Would you believe it? I am willing to guess, No. It may present radar track, then there will be another source based news that "US believes the radar track is false". I am sure, there will be another round of whining how GoI is lying.

The issue is not GoI's claim. It is Indians who have such low confidence in themselves, that they are ready to believe foreign government like US & Pak who have vested interest in debunking our claims.