May be because the objective is not TV rating or PR war? rather punishing terrorist & Pak. No?esommuk wrote:Balakote was not a clandestine operation. It was owned up by GOI and an announcement made. So was the aerial skirmish over LOC. Then why this smokescreen of secrecy when it comes to owning up and proving the kill and/or F16 involvement?
MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir
Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir
Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir
To sell F16s, F21s or F18s India is not the only market for US. The situation is not so helpless for the US manufacturers .... yes IAF is in dire straits for new fighters!
Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir
Let’s get this jingo myth out of the way. The US doesn’t need India’s defence deals. India needs them. Those that are saying India would be a fool to buy US equipment, ignore some of that equipment is top class and provides us capabilities that our enemies can’t have e.g. MH-24. Even financially, we’re a tiny droplet when compared to USD 1 trillion combined defence budgets of NATO countries. Let’s be real.Will wrote:It’s the usual crap of quoting “sources”. Agree with the above that the GOI needs to come out and back the IAF by either putting out evidence or putting pressure on the US for an “official” statement . India has leverage through MMRCA 2.0. If not kick both the US planes out of the competition.Aditya_V wrote:
Exactly both GOI and forces are now being called liars, they need to come out now and get the truth out and and official communication from the Sd/Pentagon, this will be collasal blunder to let this pass.
Our forces credibility takes a huge dent, the GOI cant sit idle, the FP article is being provocative. They cant get away with calling IAF liars.
If things stay as it is large % of Indian public will start doubting our forces.
As much as one might not want to acknowledge it, India is way behind in the information war.
Last edited by Nikhil T on 05 Apr 2019 12:35, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir
Yes usa media always speaks truth. We saw how cnn, nyt , fp all were saying Trump Will win .... I don't know why Trump called media liar after winning.
Disgusting people like arun never trusted word of our side, but one pathetic liar amrikan media names unknown source and becomes Bramhasatya...
This is a lie by usa, who are a LYING nation, REMEMBER "Iraq-saddam Hussein-weapons of mass destruction" ... how amrikan foreign secretary lied in uno? And later this lying genocidal nation shamelessly accepted lying with shrug of shoulders ...
Some dirty minds claiming to be nationalists over-analyse doubt statements from our side but accept foreign sources straighaway...
They want patriotic govt out that reversed mms govt signing away our right to store food ...
They want this govt out that shut down so many thousands of USA funded NGOs
Disgusting people like arun never trusted word of our side, but one pathetic liar amrikan media names unknown source and becomes Bramhasatya...
This is a lie by usa, who are a LYING nation, REMEMBER "Iraq-saddam Hussein-weapons of mass destruction" ... how amrikan foreign secretary lied in uno? And later this lying genocidal nation shamelessly accepted lying with shrug of shoulders ...
Some dirty minds claiming to be nationalists over-analyse doubt statements from our side but accept foreign sources straighaway...
They want patriotic govt out that reversed mms govt signing away our right to store food ...
They want this govt out that shut down so many thousands of USA funded NGOs
Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir
It is not about TV or PR but transparency to citizens. It is all about probity!nam wrote:May be because the objective is not TV rating or PR war? rather punishing terrorist & Pak. No?esommuk wrote:Balakote was not a clandestine operation. It was owned up by GOI and an announcement made. So was the aerial skirmish over LOC. Then why this smokescreen of secrecy when it comes to owning up and proving the kill and/or F16 involvement?
Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir
That so called top class equipment becomes a dud when the SD and Pentagon deep state favor the Porkis in a all out conflict.
Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir
^ says who? We got unprecented support from US over our right to self defence. No condemnation for Balakot. No high profile Armitage style visits to both capitals. And a UNSC proposal authored by US to ban the JeM leadership. There’s not a figment of support or favour to the Porkis.
Last edited by Nikhil T on 05 Apr 2019 12:41, edited 1 time in total.
Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir
my honest advice to crybabies and dhoti shiverers is to leave brf (a sabbatical) and return on may23.
if you cannot handle hybrid war, you will only lose your peace of mind. and it will be in high gear now with april11 GE a week away
gotus is no longer one unit, its split into factions and DT his own faction.
if you cannot handle hybrid war, you will only lose your peace of mind. and it will be in high gear now with april11 GE a week away
gotus is no longer one unit, its split into factions and DT his own faction.
Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir
Exactly, now that FP has decided to run this article, we must work to get an official statement from Sd/Pentagon whatever that the report is incorrect. That at least can be expected.
Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir
Contrary to what some members feel, India denying US equipement due to lopsided priorities of SD is a big deal, because there are many US allies and other nations who will be watching and will take a call based on India's choices. Like it or not India is an opinion leader for many neutral folks. Nations like brazil malaysia, singapore, Korea will henceforth prefer French rather than US equipment because of such express duplicity.
FRENCH will be a big victor in this.
FRENCH will be a big victor in this.
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir
Official statement from Pentagon ? Like Nasa gave one few days ago on our ASAT test ?
Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir
whether they make a official statement or not SD/Pentagon is their own business. they will make it if they see some value to their own cause.
other than that , there is no need for GOI to respond to any article quoting unnamed sources.
other than that , there is no need for GOI to respond to any article quoting unnamed sources.
Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir
Lets see, on one side we have Pak, who has a history of lying with a straight face.esommuk wrote:It is not about TV or PR but transparency to citizens. It is all about probity!nam wrote:
May be because the objective is not TV rating or PR war? rather punishing terrorist & Pak. No?
On the other hand we have IAF, which has openly admitted it is looking in to case of blue on blue regarding the Mi17, although it could have quiet easily hidden it.
For the citizens, it is very clear whom to trust.
Last edited by nam on 05 Apr 2019 12:49, edited 1 time in total.
Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir
Hope we don’t do this. No need to run to US to correct perception about our own operation. GoI/IAF can do what they did with Balakot - selectively show the proof to journalists or even friendly nations. I’m sure we’ve satellite pics of the spot where the F16 crashed, since we know the area that Abhinandan was in. Or we can release the name of the pilot that we claim to know. Neither of those compromise classified capabilities.Aditya_V wrote:Exactly, now that FP has decided to run this article, we must work to get an official statement from Sd/Pentagon whatever that the report is incorrect. That at least can be expected.
“nam” wrote:On the other hand we have IAF, which has openly admitted it is looking in to case of blue on blue regarding the Mi17, although it could have quiet easily hidden it.
I agree on the trust part, but a nitpick that IAF hasn’t officially admitted its looking into blue on blue. Newspaper reports have attributed this to “sources”. Happy to learn Iif I’m mistaken.
Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir
One FP article and dhoti shiver starts. Psyops from all sides onlee. All un-named sources should not be believed (whether desi or phoren) given the way how things have panned out in media worldwide especially amreeka. Heck even named sources in amreekan political landscape lie.
Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir
Since when has US SD become the altar of truth that everyone wants them to back our position now in this? And tomorrow if SD gives a presscon with a we can neither confirm nor deny, how does that do anything to our position?
Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir
Ofcourse, Pentagon and SD will say, we don't comment on operational details of countries having US kit. what will the jumping jacks do then? They will say can we publicly disclose details about US kit in India? what will be our response?
Gosh, this was expected from day 1, why are people so miffed.
Gosh, this was expected from day 1, why are people so miffed.
Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir
anyway, my sources (nihariwala) tell me that the US count found a hanging chad
Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir
Ya allah, FP article was about F-16 and people here somehow start questioning the Balakot strikes? If this is the situation on BR I can only imagine what it is elsewhere.
Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir
A PAF F-16 two-seater with two pilots was shot down by W/C Abhinandan in his MiG-21 Bison on the morning of 27 Feb.
DGISPR of the terrorist nation has posted about 2 a/c and 3 pilots. 1 a/c and 2 pilots are PAF.
https://www.dawn.com/news/1466347
If some unnamed US official is lying to save PAF embarrassment, it just speaks volumes about those lying and those spreading the lies. The liars are showing themselves. More useful information for us.
DGISPR of the terrorist nation has posted about 2 a/c and 3 pilots. 1 a/c and 2 pilots are PAF.
https://www.dawn.com/news/1466347
If some unnamed US official is lying to save PAF embarrassment, it just speaks volumes about those lying and those spreading the lies. The liars are showing themselves. More useful information for us.
Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir
Pak can hide as much it wants, US can help it cover up as much it wants. The reality remains it lost a F16 in return of Mig21.
In round 2, PAF will going in to air knowing it's primary weapon Aim120 may have been defeated and it still needs to face R77, Derby & Mica. Potentially Meteor.
If Paks believe they won this round, Pak will be under more pressure to "defeat" us next time. This is what we want.
In round 2, PAF will going in to air knowing it's primary weapon Aim120 may have been defeated and it still needs to face R77, Derby & Mica. Potentially Meteor.
If Paks believe they won this round, Pak will be under more pressure to "defeat" us next time. This is what we want.
Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir
esommuk wrote:It is not about TV or PR but transparency to citizens. It is all about probity!nam wrote:
May be because the objective is not TV rating or PR war? rather punishing terrorist & Pak. No?
Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir
My comment went unpublished in above post - I just wanted to congratulate you on successfully sounding like DDM, Paki gora media. Same argument by the sickular-commie gang.
Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir
This must have deliberately leaked to allow US to comment on it. US may comment it can account directly sold/ sold using it's aid. It will leave a bit a ambiguity allowing both Pak & India to claim it is correct.
US is good at such things.
US is good at such things.
Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir
Does the US count all F-16s, including the older ones and ex-Jordan airframes? The strict monitoring was only for the new Block 52 units
Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir
Nitpick: When were these F-16s counted? Foreign Policy does not mention a date when the US counted paki F-16s. Was it before 26th Feb., 2019 or after?
Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir
What exactly is in the F-16 or F-18, that's not in the Rafale or EF?Nikhil T wrote:Let’s get this jingo myth out of the way. The US doesn’t need India’s defence deals. India needs them. Those that are saying India would be a fool to buy US equipment, ignore some of that equipment is top class and provides us capabilities that our enemies can’t have e.g. MH-24. Even financially, we’re a tiny droplet when compared to USD 1 trillion combined defence budgets of NATO countries. Let’s be real.
Second, what portion of the USD 1 Trillion combined NATO budget goes to buy US rather than domestic gear?
Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir
When logic runs out name-calling begins. It is kind of sad!dipak wrote:My comment went unpublished in above post - I just wanted to congratulate you on successfully sounding like DDM, Paki gora media. Same argument by the sickular-commie gang.
GOI has to provide credible evidence to its citizens on downing and use of F16 in the aerial skirmish ... and GOI means the political masters and the sly 'babudom' which permeates through every strata of civilian government. Military officers are brave-hearts who put their life and well being at risk to defend the nation - they deserve salute on every count.
But the government has to be transparent to its citizens - we do not live in a single party state or ruled by dictator!
_________________________-
Your agenda is obvious and unwelcome. You have been warned. Keep these sly insinuations up, and you will enjoy a ban as well.
Regards
Km
Last edited by esommuk on 05 Apr 2019 13:43, edited 1 time in total.
Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir
they count everything in detail and monitor usageAditya G wrote:Does the US count all F-16s, including the older ones and ex-Jordan airframes? The strict monitoring was only for the new Block 52 units
Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir
Yawn! Hurting John Doe wanting to do a equal-equal with Ivan for all their material on how a old mig-21 took down a f-16. Typical Indian mentality seeking validation from gora on the kill and the typical Paki mindset of wanting to eke out H&D where it doesnt exist. It doesnt matter what the US Govt or US mil-ind complex says. If GOI and IAF say something then it is "Veda-vakku" for me. Now to sit back with the popcorn and see the Paki economy go into a tailspin with glee.
Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir
well said. the verbose gyan about being "taxpayers", about "probity" etc etc is becoming farcical, goodness one such news and the truth about some of our folks just jumps right out.Singha wrote:my honest advice to crybabies and dhoti shiverers is to leave brf (a sabbatical) and return on may23.
if you cannot handle hybrid war, you will only lose your peace of mind. and it will be in high gear now with april11 GE a week away
gotus is no longer one unit, its split into factions and DT his own faction.
Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir
When Kargil war happened, the US refused spares for the sea king helicopters. The helicopters had to sit out the entire war. Is this the kind of support we are talking here?
Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir
It was the military leadership, more specifically the vice air-marshall, a military officer, who announced that IAF had downed an F-16. NOT the GoI.esommuk wrote:GOI has to provide credible evidence to its citizen on downing and use of F16 in the aerial skirmish ... and GOI means the political masters and the sly 'babudom' which permeates through every strata of civilian government. Military officers are brave-hearts who put their life and well being at risk to defend the nation - they deserve salute on every count.
Sure, let us ask the government how many of our spies are operating in Pakistan and while we are at it, their phone numbers and emails as well, so that we may thank them for safeguarding our freedom.esommuk wrote:But the government has to be transparent to its citizens - we do not live in a single party state or ruled by dictator!
Last edited by Kashi on 05 Apr 2019 13:55, edited 1 time in total.
Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir
Ridiculous, its just one US media saying stuff from their hats.
And the desi dorky media doing what it does best.
So, we dont trust IAF but we trust some random media house from a vested interest land. Wow!!
For me, its just a clickbait article.
And the desi dorky media doing what it does best.
So, we dont trust IAF but we trust some random media house from a vested interest land. Wow!!
For me, its just a clickbait article.
Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir
Transparent to what extent, what will satisfy you or others out there? If GOI issues statement, categorically mentioning the F-16 kill, why is it not sufficient for us to believe, and on the other hand we are ready to believe some unnamed gora media source?esommuk wrote:When logic runs out name-calling begins. It is kind of sad!dipak wrote:My comment went unpublished in above post - I just wanted to congratulate you on successfully sounding like DDM, Paki gora media. Same argument by the sickular-commie gang.
GOI has to provide credible evidence to its citizens on downing and use of F16 in the aerial skirmish ... and GOI means the political masters and the sly 'babudom' which permeates through every strata of civilian government. Military officers are brave-hearts who put their life and well being at risk to defend the nation - they deserve salute on every count.
But the government has to be transparent to its citizens - we do not live in a single party state or ruled by dictator!
Why should GOI be burdened to back up with evidence ...and even if tomorrow it comes out with some evidence, even that evidence can be questioned in one way or the another.
For me, its ok if the GOI has not turned up with the evidence to satisfy to my heart's content. There must be some good reason for such.
Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir
Kashi, well said.
Essomuck and others, BRF does not exist to hand hold your ignorance and then sit and waste its time on your obvious trolling. Shape up or ship out, your choice. Others, make your points clearly without bellyaching and trying to drive a wedge between the GOI and the forces. This is bharat-rakshak, not some gora-saheb fetish forum wherein we unquestioningly swallow some bilge in any foreign report.
Most of us are old enough to know the amount of propaganda engaged in on behalf of Pakistan whenever there was an Indo-Pak conflict by these jokers and their sources writing in these rags and websites. If you don't have the self-confidence, self-respect or ability to trust your own people in the IAF, then this is not the forum for you.
Second, you are not doing India any favor by paying taxes, so stop bragging about it or demanding some extra special treatment because of it. Everyone of us on the forum, more or less, is paying taxes and those taxes pay for that very equipment which is being used to defend our privileged hides. If anything, we may even need to contribute more to get the right kind of defense. Grow up.
Essomuck and others, BRF does not exist to hand hold your ignorance and then sit and waste its time on your obvious trolling. Shape up or ship out, your choice. Others, make your points clearly without bellyaching and trying to drive a wedge between the GOI and the forces. This is bharat-rakshak, not some gora-saheb fetish forum wherein we unquestioningly swallow some bilge in any foreign report.
Most of us are old enough to know the amount of propaganda engaged in on behalf of Pakistan whenever there was an Indo-Pak conflict by these jokers and their sources writing in these rags and websites. If you don't have the self-confidence, self-respect or ability to trust your own people in the IAF, then this is not the forum for you.
Second, you are not doing India any favor by paying taxes, so stop bragging about it or demanding some extra special treatment because of it. Everyone of us on the forum, more or less, is paying taxes and those taxes pay for that very equipment which is being used to defend our privileged hides. If anything, we may even need to contribute more to get the right kind of defense. Grow up.
Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir
Your agenda is obvious and unwelcome. You have been warned. Keep these sly insinuations up, and you will enjoy a ban as well.
Regards
Km
Please go ahead and ban me Sir.
----------
Thank you. Done. And don't go around quoting religious scripture on a topic which you know nothing about.
Regards
Km
Please go ahead and ban me Sir.
----------
Thank you. Done. And don't go around quoting religious scripture on a topic which you know nothing about.
Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir
I've been a lurker for some time, and have just a low post count. I guess I'll add my own humble opinion: I've noticed lots of 'huffing and puffing' about how we must have all the information spoon-fed to us. Why? To what end?
Does the US or Israel or anybody else reveal all their methods for all to see? Did this article quote a specific official top-level SD or DOD source, or was it just some more anonymous blather?
Similarly, must I know the name and address of the mission leaders for the Balakot strike? It's still upsetting thinking about those worthy articles spilling every personal detail about WC Abhinandan in the first couple of hours.
We need a better, more structured media response, but we don't have to respond to every nonsense story out there.
Does the US or Israel or anybody else reveal all their methods for all to see? Did this article quote a specific official top-level SD or DOD source, or was it just some more anonymous blather?
Similarly, must I know the name and address of the mission leaders for the Balakot strike? It's still upsetting thinking about those worthy articles spilling every personal detail about WC Abhinandan in the first couple of hours.
We need a better, more structured media response, but we don't have to respond to every nonsense story out there.
Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir
My God that is some grade A virtue signalling right there. This space beyond this forum, can I get the address?? Would love to go there to get gyaan on "morality and transparency" that seems to be in abundance in this garden of eden.esommuk wrote: But there is a space beyond this forum and that space is all about morality and transparency xx verbose rubbish deleted.!
Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir
I take this rule of morality applies only to GoI, which has to reply to some "source" based news? Never saw the morality been thumbed at US government, whose agent was found to be part of the group that massacred 100s of Indian citizen on 26/11.esommuk wrote: Please go ahead and ban me Sir. It is afterall your fiefdom.
xx rest of the verbose cr@p deletedxx
Well GoI will say we will stand by our claim. Would you believe it? I am willing to guess, No. It may present radar track, then there will be another source based news that "US believes the radar track is false". I am sure, there will be another round of whining how GoI is lying.
The issue is not GoI's claim. It is Indians who have such low confidence in themselves, that they are ready to believe foreign government like US & Pak who have vested interest in debunking our claims.