MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

VikramA · Post by **VikramA** » 05 Apr 2019 19:11

From TOI journalist Rajat pandit on twitter

"Apart from electronic signatures captured by IAF’s Phalcon AWACS, Indian ground forces confirmed sightings of two parachutes coming down at Sabi Kot and Tandar, separates by 8-10 kn"

Y I Patel · Post by **Y I Patel** » 05 Apr 2019 19:12

Tell me one thing - if an F16 was shot down and crashed in India and no MiG21 was lost, how many additional votes for Modi? To answer my rhetorical question, none.

As people with deep interest in national security matters, we tend to overestimate all this hoopla about winning the PR battle for public hearts and minds. The other aspect is about all of the unheard conversations behind closed doors. What comes out is the spin for public consumption. It does have a function but we exaggerate it in our minds because we get too close to the events.

Take a deep breath. Over time you will see how this will be used against US and it’s paid media publicly and privately.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 05 Apr 2019 19:30

Sorry, YIP you have it partly wrong. What you are seeing is just one part of the picture, the local guys and their concern about "votes".

This PR battle is not just about reducing Modi's image in the "elite" English speaking crowd but also about generally putting Indian policy "in its place". Its about creating a narrative that this effort was a "disaster, a failure" which will then be used to provide any non Modi Govt an "out" so as to ensure they don't do what this Govt did.

Forget about taking deep breaths etc. That's not the point. Aim is to recognize what's happening and counter it or be aware of what's happening and not get "played'.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 05 Apr 2019 19:32

Truthseeker wrote:From TOI journalist Rajat pandit on twitter

"Apart from electronic signatures captured by IAF’s Phalcon AWACS, Indian ground forces confirmed sightings of two parachutes coming down at Sabi Kot and Tandar, separates by 8-10 kn"

And here we go, as mentioned previously, GOI is choosing to respond via yet another set of channels. Well, well, lets see what else is thrown up.

Quite the tennis match, this.

VikramA · Post by **VikramA** » 05 Apr 2019 19:33

From Neeraj Rajput. ABP news

"Evidences that Pakistani #F16 shot down:
1. AEWCS electronic signatures shows in 02 image showing F16 disappreared from radar within 8-10seconds during dogfight with Abhinandan (images shown to me)
2. F16 which came down didnt return it as 'call-sign' to Pak air base
3. Pakistan army radio tranmission (thrice) saying 02 parinde (fighter jets) down. Recorded by Indian Army at LOC
4. Two ejections at a distance of 8-10kms at same time shows apart from Indian Mig21 anthr was Pak #F16 wich came down"

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 05 Apr 2019 19:36

Aditya_V wrote:
Karan M wrote:If you had shot down 5 F-16s in BVR or by chasing them down, and not 1, all had fallen down over the Pakistani side, same issue would have remained.
If it is over Paki Jabi cities very difficult for PAF to do blackout like they have done in POK.

They will claim own goal. These guys are the masters of subterfuge.

gaurav.p · Post by **gaurav.p** » 05 Apr 2019 19:36

Karan M wrote:Meanwhile, a blast from the past.
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/wor ... 628240.cms

Read the entire link.

wow! thanks saar. saw his twitter feed saw these gems, will read more about his work.

BJP manifesto ideas--Health,safe water,education (saw episode on india today survey ~1.7Lppl - drinking water was second most important thing after jobs, expecting sth in the manifesto for the same)

NaMo & BJP shd set up a national commission to identify national interests &. Prioritise them for implementation

My message to those who read me: Back NaMo for PM. He may not come up to expectations, but he will be refreshingly different

China --Avoid over-optimism, wishful thinking

Till Tibetan population is pacified to Chinese satisfaction, Beijing will keep border issue unsettled

NSA under NaMo--Shyam Saran;ISA--Prakash Singh;National int Adviser---Doval

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 05 Apr 2019 19:38

Above journalist, openly calls out FP's intent.

So arms-race being main reason @ForeignPolicy did story on #F16 not being downed by @IAF_MCC in dogfight on Feb 27th without any official comment from India US & Pakistan (this story followed soon aftr that)
https://twitter.com/neeraj_rajput?ref_s ... r%5Eauthor

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 05 Apr 2019 19:38

Truthseeker wrote:From TOI journalist Rajat pandit on twitter

"Apart from electronic signatures captured by IAF’s Phalcon AWACS, Indian ground forces confirmed sightings of two parachutes coming down at Sabi Kot and Tandar, separates by 8-10 kn"

Apart from these inspite of Paki internet blackout, used our intelligence assets to get some videos pics of downed F-16 and Pilots in hospital, like the drop tanks being hurriedly loaded on the Paki army truck, we probably should laso have the tail number and the pilot names of the personal who went down.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 05 Apr 2019 19:40

VikramA wrote:From TOI journalist Rajat pandit on twitter

"Apart from electronic signatures captured by IAF’s Phalcon AWACS, Indian ground forces confirmed sightings of two parachutes coming down at Sabi Kot and Tandar, separates by 8-10 kn"

Truthseeker, I have changed your username to VikramA. Thanks.

Bart S · Post by **Bart S** » 05 Apr 2019 19:42

Foreign Policy is owned by the extremely hostile (to India, and Trump admin) and extremely dishonest Washington Post. What do you expect.

ranneel · Post by **ranneel** » 05 Apr 2019 19:46

Bart S wrote:Foreign Policy is owned by the extremely hostile (to India, and Trump admin) and extremely dishonest Washington Post. What do you expect.

So is the Diplomat...Michael Kugelman and the Ankit Panda dude.

Bharadwaj · Post by **Bharadwaj** » 05 Apr 2019 19:48

We are being made to reveal capabilities but I guess GOI and IAF had no choice here...

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 05 Apr 2019 19:48

Bharadwaj wrote:We are being made to reveal capabilities but I guess GOI and IAF had no choice here...

There is no need to reveal anything to satisfy folks on social media.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 05 Apr 2019 19:49

In the history of arms sales, this will be classified as one of the biggest own goals ever.

Cheese off the Indian establishment enough to provide more and more information that a F-16 was shot down, by violating a tacit understanding which clearly existed that India would not embarass the Khan establishment. Bye bye F-21.

Openly and garrulously use 4th rate stringers in US media, like Maria al Habib and Lara Seligman to message India that Khan's word about weaponry usage does not matter, use them to mock the GOI, IAF assuming that this GOI won't return to power. So what price, further assurances? And what if this GOI does return to power. Ooops. In the process reveal that NYT and FP both run after the biggest thing in ze world, ze dinero! So much for "times" and "policy".

Then on top of it all, make the case very crudely that India should buy F-21 and F-18. Somehow, I don't that will be happening. I remember the ultra tactically tactical tactics of the Pak Army in Kargil - we will send up light infantry in the mountains in ze cold because ze Indians wont detect them and won't attack and roll over.

That worked.

So did this propaganda blitz to run down GOI, India and IAF so as to convince GOI, India and IAF to buy Khan gear.

gaurav.p · Post by **gaurav.p** » 05 Apr 2019 19:50

Bart S wrote:Foreign Policy is owned by the extremely hostile (to India, and Trump admin) and extremely dishonest Washington Post. What do you expect.

+ they are owned by amazon. who faced a glorious kick in the butt wrt to FDI regulations.

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 05 Apr 2019 19:51

Foreign Policy has a bias. A lot of links to FP articles come up on twitter feeds that I follow. For months I noticed a bias and then stopped clicking on FP articles because they have an agenda. and this is long before this F16 article. Now, I do not know if this reporter is the instigator of this story or is a patsy. But this pattern of using anonymous "sources" to base entire stories has become a menace in the US media as demonstrated in the propaganda offensive against Trump.

My only regret is that India missed a great opportunity on February 27 to deliver a solid jhapad.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 05 Apr 2019 19:52

Bharadwaj wrote:We are being made to reveal capabilities but I guess GOI and IAF had no choice here...

Nothing really really classified has been revealed yet.

What has been really revealed was done so on the morning of Feb 27th, when 8 IAF aircraft held off 24x PAF ones and shot down a F-16. That level of expertise and coordination does not come from buying a new gizmo.

Bharadwaj · Post by **Bharadwaj** » 05 Apr 2019 19:53

Rakesh wrote:
Bharadwaj wrote:We are being made to reveal capabilities but I guess GOI and IAF had no choice here...
There is no need to reveal anything to satisfy folks on social media.

Saar unfortunately this fraud narrative was picked up by more than just social media. Hence now another official IAF statement had to be made. Otherwise the usual suspects would have started their doubting circus tomorrow.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 05 Apr 2019 19:55

ldev wrote:Foreign Policy has a bias. A lot of links to FP articles come up on twitter feeds that I follow. For months I noticed a bias and then stopped clicking on FP articles because they have an agenda. and this is long before this F16 article. Now, I do not know if this reporter is the instigator of this story or is a patsy. But this pattern of using anonymous "sources" to base entire stories has become a menace in the US media as demonstrated in the propaganda offensive against Trump.

My only regret is that India missed a great opportunity on February 27 to deliver a solid jhapad.

Not just a bias, but the messaging is quite coordinated.

Lady reporters (any harsh criticism == look at these uncouth, misognyist RW trolls who are from x party's IT cell === Pakistani jihadis), with an unknown track record (can't be accused of anti-India bias), pop up out of nowhere, make dubious assertions on the topic, promptly claim victimhood (and simultaneously retweet anti-India content on social media after the original article roping Modi in and linking the whole event to elections etc and how it was a disaster, this, that). While simultaneously running down Indian claims, IAF, GOI, also push for India to buy Khanland gear.

I mean, can't get more obvious than that.

pralay · Post by **pralay** » 05 Apr 2019 19:57

ArjunPandit wrote:
ranneel wrote:Is anyone interested in a web scrapper for India associated articles and identification of friend or foe project ? Or is it more relevant in the AI thread ?
i agree there should be a thread highlighting the inclinations of media houses/personalities.
One of the learnings in my initial BRF years was that news articles should not be looked just from the content. The author/journalist/country/publishing house and inclinations all matter. In India we know a lot abt our desi journos and their kukarms but for the rest of the world we will still need a mapping. Sadly at the time I proposed this, GDF got closed.

It is for mods to decide where they want to house this discussion esp now political discussions are happening over elections. My suggestion to circumvent the non-GDF handicap is the following
1. Strat thread
2. a. Identify key foreign authors writing/focussing on India: CFair/CJ Welerman, Sadanand Dhume, Alyssa Ares, etc
2.b. Identify media houses: Economist, NYT, WAPO, FP, FA, FT,
3. a. Any criminal investigations going for them (in india we can have for burkha, US would be mostly harrassment)
3.b. Inclinations: Indophile, Indophobic, Hinduphobic

Sadly, BRF does not support tagging, database compilation of this sort to have a running excel. That is one serious handicap of BRF. I dont have any proficiency with PHP based forums/portals to think through this. I have suggested this to mods in the feedback forum at the top, but haven't received any response, so I suppose they have politely said no or they've got something better to do

OT here but we can create a graf d b of such things which will be very interesting but will need some funding as well.

Bharadwaj · Post by **Bharadwaj** » 05 Apr 2019 20:01

Looks like full briefing was given to a group of media just now. GOI and IAF have moved very quickly to counter the BS but explicitly revealing that we have full signatures and radio intercepts of the episode still feels a tad more than what they may have wanted to.

Bart S · Post by **Bart S** » 05 Apr 2019 20:03

gaurav.p wrote:
Bart S wrote:Foreign Policy is owned by the extremely hostile (to India, and Trump admin) and extremely dishonest Washington Post. What do you expect.
+ they are owned by amazon. who faced a glorious kick in the butt wrt to FDI regulations.

Not by Amazon but by Jeff Bezos personally. And they have been hostile to India long before Amazon had any setbacks due to FDI regulations. This is in some ways negligence by the GOI and bureaucracy to use the leverage that they have to influence narratives in our favor or at least make them desist from constantly dishing out rubbish on India.

Bart S · Post by **Bart S** » 05 Apr 2019 20:06

Karan M wrote:In the history of arms sales, this will be classified as one of the biggest own goals ever.

Cheese off the Indian establishment enough to provide more and more information that a F-16 was shot down, by violating a tacit understanding which clearly existed that India would not embarass the Khan establishment. Bye bye F-21.

Openly and garrulously use 4th rate stringers in US media, like Maria al Habib and Lara Seligman to message India that Khan's word about weaponry usage does not matter, use them to mock the GOI, IAF assuming that this GOI won't return to power. So what price, further assurances? And what if this GOI does return to power. Ooops. In the process reveal that NYT and FP both run after the biggest thing in ze world, ze dinero! So much for "times" and "policy".

Could be intended to have that effect, these folks seem to be left-wing nutjobs and hostile to both GOI and Trump administration, and wouldn't hesitate to sabotage US interests and relationship with India to spite Trump, Modi or both.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 05 Apr 2019 20:14

Bharadwaj wrote:Looks like full briefing was given to a group of media just now. GOI and IAF have moved very quickly to counter the BS but explicitly revealing that we have full signatures and radio intercepts of the episode still feels a tad more than what they may have wanted to.

Why? What's important is getting the news out there. Are we openly admitting the signatures classified composition? No. Does the PAF know a Phalcon was around? Yes. So we aren't giving anything out. We are just calling the Khan rag bluff.. that we can stand by our data and we have it.

ranneel · Post by **ranneel** » 05 Apr 2019 20:15

pralay wrote:
ArjunPandit wrote: i agree there should be a thread highlighting the inclinations of media houses/personalities.
One of the learnings in my initial BRF years was that news articles should not be looked just from the content. The author/journalist/country/publishing house and inclinations all matter. In India we know a lot abt our desi journos and their kukarms but for the rest of the world we will still need a mapping. Sadly at the time I proposed this, GDF got closed.

It is for mods to decide where they want to house this discussion esp now political discussions are happening over elections. My suggestion to circumvent the non-GDF handicap is the following
1. Strat thread
2. a. Identify key foreign authors writing/focussing on India: CFair/CJ Welerman, Sadanand Dhume, Alyssa Ares, etc
2.b. Identify media houses: Economist, NYT, WAPO, FP, FA, FT,
3. a. Any criminal investigations going for them (in india we can have for burkha, US would be mostly harrassment)
3.b. Inclinations: Indophile, Indophobic, Hinduphobic

Sadly, BRF does not support tagging, database compilation of this sort to have a running excel. That is one serious handicap of BRF. I dont have any proficiency with PHP based forums/portals to think through this. I have suggested this to mods in the feedback forum at the top, but haven't received any response, so I suppose they have politely said no or they've got something better to do
OT here but we can create a graf d b of such things which will be very interesting but will need some funding as well.

One way is to either use closed bitbucket/git to work on a set of tools to perform required actions.The results could be published on a thread which is behind the burqa.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 05 Apr 2019 20:17

Bart S wrote:
Karan M wrote:In the history of arms sales, this will be classified as one of the biggest own goals ever.

Cheese off the Indian establishment enough to provide more and more information that a F-16 was shot down, by violating a tacit understanding which clearly existed that India would not embarass the Khan establishment. Bye bye F-21.

Openly and garrulously use 4th rate stringers in US media, like Maria al Habib and Lara Seligman to message India that Khan's word about weaponry usage does not matter, use them to mock the GOI, IAF assuming that this GOI won't return to power. So what price, further assurances? And what if this GOI does return to power. Ooops. In the process reveal that NYT and FP both run after the biggest thing in ze world, ze dinero! So much for "times" and "policy".
Could be intended to have that effect, these folks seem to be left-wing nutjobs and hostile to both GOI and Trump administration, and wouldn't hesitate to sabotage US interests and relationship with India to spite Trump, Modi or both.

That too is a possibility. That's why in my original posts I said segments of the Khan administration which belong to one of the classic anti India groups, the EJs or cold war warriors, or leftists or all 3, which seek to disparage India and current GOI and its relationship with Trump admin, seeking to put us back in our place. Sitting meekly and not using any AF etc in dissuasion of terror.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 05 Apr 2019 20:20

MiG 21 Bison shot down an F-16 in Nowshera sector: IAF on US media report
https://www.dnaindia.com/india/photo-ga ... rt-2736654

An IAF source told ANI That Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman shot down a Pakistan Air Force F-16 aircraft 7-8km inside Pak-occupied area in Sabzkot area.

IAF sources also confirmed that radio communication of Pakistan Air Force intercepted by it confirms that one of the F-16s that attacked India on February 27 did not return to its base.

Bharadwaj · Post by **Bharadwaj** » 05 Apr 2019 20:25

Karan M wrote:
Bharadwaj wrote:Looks like full briefing was given to a group of media just now. GOI and IAF have moved very quickly to counter the BS but explicitly revealing that we have full signatures and radio intercepts of the episode still feels a tad more than what they may have wanted to.
Why? What's important is getting the news out there. Are we openly admitting the signatures classified composition? No. Does the PAF know a Phalcon was around? Yes. So we aren't giving anything out. We are just calling the Khan rag bluff.. that we can stand by our data and we have it.

I understand the need to call the bluff but if this info was that non sensitive it could have been done on day one. The media at the briefing were now reportedly shown the airborne system recorded images. Ultimately GOI and IAF know what to reveal but I just had a thought that perhaps their hand was forced in this particular instance. Nonetheless this is a move that will end the permeability of the Khan rag piece.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 05 Apr 2019 20:26

Karan M wrote:MiG 21 Bison shot down an F-16 in Nowshera sector: IAF on US media report
https://www.dnaindia.com/india/photo-ga ... rt-2736654

An IAF source told ANI That Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman shot down a Pakistan Air Force F-16 aircraft 7-8km inside Pak-occupied area in Sabzkot area.

IAF sources also confirmed that radio communication of Pakistan Air Force intercepted by it confirms that one of the F-16s that attacked India on February 27 did not return to its base.

There you go. Enough said. Good find Karan.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 05 Apr 2019 20:30

Bart S wrote:Could be intended to have that effect, these folks seem to be left-wing nutjobs and hostile to both GOI and Trump administration, and wouldn't hesitate to sabotage US interests and relationship with India to spite Trump, Modi or both.

On the issue of the F-16 or the F-18 for the Indian Air Force, this Amreeki self-goal is a blessing in disguise.

They had a very good opportunity with the F-18, which they just blew out of the water. Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

The Boeing-Mahindra-HAL tie up was a good counter (optics wise) to the Dassault-Ambani venture.

The F-16/F-21 never stood a chance, but even the F-18 will now be unlikely to win.

The US State Departments owns the debacle now. They 100% own it

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 05 Apr 2019 20:41

isnt disclosing that we intercepted PAF radio communication also a breach of our capabilities..? if india released Mushy tapes then IAF should release the transcript...??

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 05 Apr 2019 20:44

Not really. They know that we are listening. We are not revealing the how and that is key.

Raveen · Post by **Raveen** » 05 Apr 2019 20:48

manjgu wrote:isnt disclosing that we intercepted PAF radio communication also a breach of our capabilities..? if india released Mushy tapes then IAF should release the transcript...??

Not only that, the official statement was "we have electronic signals validating a F-16 was downed" officially we've never claimed to have a recording of radio chatter.

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 05 Apr 2019 20:56

Have Proof Pakistani F-16 Shot Down, Says Air Force; Refutes US Journal Report

The Air Force said radio intercepts proved that two pilots had ejected, not just one.

Journalists were shown the radar tracks of the air battle that took place across the LoC near Jhangar, which lies between Rajouri and Nowshera.

The radar tracks recorded by airborne warning and control aircraft show the presence of an F-16 aircraft in the vicinity of Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman's MiG-21 Bison. In the very next frame of the AWACS picture, eight seconds later, the symbol for the PAF F-16 aircraft is missing indicating what IAF sources say is a shootdown of the jet. IAF controllers monitoring the air battle on the AWACS aircraft were also monitoring the radio communication between pilots in the Pakistan F-16 formation. They say communication from one F-16 aircraft abruptly ended which they believe is further confirmation that one Pakistan Air Force jet did not return. However, journalists were not showcased a recording of the audio communication that was taking place on security grounds.

So the IAF gives a detailed briefing showing radar tracks and can back it up with audio recordings between the F16 pilots and PAF ground control. They give a briefing to reporters and show them the radar tracks of the F-16.

And Foreign Policy has a reporter who meets with her "source" in a Starbucks?? or is given this "scoop" via a text message and says "trust me" the PAF has it's F-16s accounted for. Did this reporter ask her source to show her the source documents where the Pentagon has signed off on showing all PAF F-16s accounted for? Did she ask whether such inventory taking is normal and what is the procedure that is followed and the periodicity?

And if this reporter has any integrity should she not in good conscience also listen to the IAF briefing and proof that they have and then reach a judgment of the conflicting claims, before writing a half cocked story.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Apr 2019 20:59

After ASAT test 5gon has become wary of GOI.
This is a response.
They still hope to sell weapons to India.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 05 Apr 2019 21:00

5gon?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Apr 2019 21:01

5 in Greek.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 05 Apr 2019 21:02

Thanks

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Apr 2019 21:03

the biggest joke of the day is Maj gen ghafoor tweeting "let truth prevail" (satyameva jayate)