MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 05 Apr 2019 21:06

Karan M wrote:Sorry, YIP you have it partly wrong. What you are seeing is just one part of the picture, the local guys and their concern about "votes".

This PR battle is not just about reducing Modi's image in the "elite" English speaking crowd but also about generally putting Indian policy "in its place". Its about creating a narrative that this effort was a "disaster, a failure" which will then be used to provide any non Modi Govt an "out" so as to ensure they don't do what this Govt did.

Forget about taking deep breaths etc. That's not the point. Aim is to recognize what's happening and counter it or be aware of what's happening and not get "played'.

Second Karan. Indians have this 'Shastrarth' mentality where we argue from a purely factual or logical position. In the real world, (especially in Abrahamic societies) narrative beats facts 9 times out of 10. If a person has a narrative (roughly translated as a series of facts/counter facts, put together into a larger story) showing them facts that go against the narrative does nothing to stop their belief.

***If*** the Indian strategy is to impose a cost on Pakistani authorities by breaking their narrative among the general Pakistani public, I am afraid, this aspect of our strategy has not yielded fruit yet. Their defeats must be conspicuously visible, like the surrender pictures of Niazi.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 05 Apr 2019 21:07

Singha wrote:the biggest joke of the day is Maj gen ghafoor tweeting "let truth prevail" (satyameva jayate)

Major General Buffoon should be careful what he wishes for. He might just get it

The State Department did even bother to clear this with the rest in the US Govt? And at Boeing? And at Lockheed Martin?

How myopic are they?

syam · Post by **syam** » 05 Apr 2019 21:10

Ok. I will bite this. Last time, I was clad in my freshly painted chain mail and swinging sword left and right, really expected support from capitol. It never came. I was very disappointed. My angst was totally justified. Finally, our GoI engaging paki spin-masters head on. It's about time. Actually, this is really great move from our side.

R.I.P to Lara loshan - 1 day fame franchise

Y I Patel · Post by **Y I Patel** » 05 Apr 2019 21:10

All this talk about radio intercepts reminds me of a famous telephone conversation that came out during Kargil war.

I maintain that this was the outcome India wanted when it was publicly stated that F16s were involved . Now all that remains is Pappu or someone else demanding saboot, and the RT gets released.

Bharadwaj · Post by **Bharadwaj** » 05 Apr 2019 21:15

syam wrote:Ok. I will bite this. Last time, I was clad in my freshly painted chain mail and swinging sword left and right, really expected support from capitol. It never came. I was very disappointed. My angst was totally justified. Finally, our GoI engaging paki spin-masters head on. It's about time. Actually, this is really great move from our side.

R.I.P to Lara loshan - 1 day fame franchise

It also appears said begum was peddling US wares just a month back in an article. Perhaps as Rakesh pointed out, the asat test has hit few raw nerves and this might be an attempt to put us in our place as it were. Unfortunately for deep state khans, this has backfired spectacularly.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 05 Apr 2019 21:17

Ramana-ji pointed that fact about the ASAT test, not me.

Bharadwaj · Post by **Bharadwaj** » 05 Apr 2019 21:19

^^^^

Due apologies

sudhan · Post by **sudhan** » 05 Apr 2019 21:29

ramana wrote:After ASAT test 5gon has become wary of GOI.
This is a response.
They still hope to sell weapons to India.

Agreed, they also signalled their displeasure by rejecting the visa application for Dr. Satheesh Reddy and Dr Guruprasad.

I guess the mijjile test being a ASAT test was only apparent after their 'Cobra ball' that lazily ambled in realized what the hell the SDREs were up to. Must've been mighty mush-hurt to deny visa application for scientists they invited in the first place..

Y I Patel · Post by **Y I Patel** » 05 Apr 2019 21:37

Deleted.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 05 Apr 2019 21:38

VikramA wrote:From TOI journalist Rajat pandit on twitter

"Apart from electronic signatures captured by IAF’s Phalcon AWACS, Indian ground forces confirmed sightings of two parachutes coming down at Sabi Kot and Tandar, separates by 8-10 kn"

Heh. I was wondering when these electronic signature would be revealed....I guess the time has come.

. Not sure how this works but wouldn't IAF AEW have recording of what happened in terms of flight tracks? Would the release of such information compromise opsec?

Although I would've have preferred a complete and contemptous disregard of the FP article by India. There was no need to reveal anything in response to this tripe. A simple rejection of it's claims and assertion that the IAF as a professional force doesn't go by sensational media claims would've been enough.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 05 Apr 2019 22:00

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1114052433922088960 ---> Obviously, America will not find any F-16s it has supplied to Pakistan 'missing in action'. But has it also accounted for any second hand F-16s transferred to Pakistan via third parties? And can we see an official statement from the Pentagon on this rather than unnamed types?

mmasand · Post by **mmasand** » 05 Apr 2019 22:10

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1114052433922088960 ---> Obviously, America will not find any F-16s it has supplied to Pakistan 'missing in action'. But has it also accounted for any second hand F-16s transferred to Pakistan via third parties? And can we see an official statement from the Pentagon on this rather than unnamed types?

Something I have been pondering about, it would be interesting to see who maintains these Jordanian ones, where do the parts come from, and more importantly are they subject to inventory counts. I couldn't care less if they used them against the agreement, several countries who have bought US equipment violate the EUMA.

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 05 Apr 2019 22:27

It is amazing how coordinated these attacks are. Business Insider (Will not link to the cr@p article) has taken the FP article and written one of their own. Interestingly, their article promptly uses the F-16 claim to also promote that the Balakot strikes were a failure and everything is a big embarrassment for India. (The Government of course)
While we will of course never release classified information, we need to be better at the information/perception war. Not just our officials but our populace as well. The constant self doubt and requiring 'Western' affirmation has to change. We openly accept when US says 'We killed OBL' and yet we ask for proof from our own people. And on top of that we tend to chain link incidents and use one to disprove other ones. Trust, like faith is a binary, you either do or don't, no middle ground.

nam · Post by **nam** » 05 Apr 2019 23:01

ldev wrote: My only regret is that India missed a great opportunity on February 27 to deliver a solid jhapad.

Given that every mango abdul including the yahoos will now believe the propaganda that PAF won on 27th, the yahoos will try another terror attack to allow PAF win again..

It is a matter of time. The second chance will come soon..

VikramA · Post by **VikramA** » 05 Apr 2019 23:01

what are the changes that this is a negotiating tactic of america. put pressure on indian Gov and then offer that pentagon will publically announce that one PAF f-16 is unaccounted for and the indian gov promises the MMRCA 2.0 contract for 114 jets to go to f-18. already the rafale and f-18 are the fav. for the deal.

VKumar · Post by **VKumar** » 05 Apr 2019 23:02

Let's count their pilots

yensoy · Post by **yensoy** » 05 Apr 2019 23:22

VKumar wrote:Let's count their pilots

Easier to fake a pilot than to fake a plane.

YashG · Post by **YashG** » 06 Apr 2019 00:14

From Lara Seligman....

https://twitter.com/laraseligman/status ... 7054366720 ---> Getting a lot of qs on whether the US included the F-16s Pakistan bought from Jordan in its count. The answer is YES: even third-party transfers of US equipment must go through the US government.

--------------------------------------------------

How is this count done? All F-16s cant be counted. 1,2 may have been cannibalised, or are un-operational. Exactly how is this count done! And how can it be gamed? (flying in Saudi or Some other F-16 looks improbable - there should be equipment markers.)

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 06 Apr 2019 00:18

what if SL is lying, maybe there is no SD/USAF counting (as they know 1 is short) so just fed her an unnamed source BS.

SidSoma · Post by **SidSoma** » 06 Apr 2019 00:23

Ye lo.... Who adds flavor to this ...None Other than Coupta.... Wow this is quick and reeks of co -ordination . Dont think that he deserves to be linked here.

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 06 Apr 2019 00:29

She could be flat out lying. People clamor for proof from our PM/forces. Why don't these same people ask this random person for proof?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 06 Apr 2019 00:30

YashG wrote:From Lara Seligman....

https://twitter.com/laraseligman/status ... 7054366720 ---> Getting a lot of qs on whether the US included the F-16s Pakistan bought from Jordan in its count. The answer is YES: even third-party transfers of US equipment must go through the US government.

Okay, there are some *GLARING* holes in her story. But first let me reproduce this tweet from Lara Seligman.

My notes are in red and blue. Read below carefully.

https://twitter.com/laraseligman/status ... 6496990209 --->

According to fleet data from @AviationWeek, out of Pakistan's total 76 F-16s, 13 are from Jordan. The breakdown (H/t @TheDEWLine):

F-16A Block 1-15 MLU: 24 (First Batch Delivered in the 80s) - the error is RIGHT HERE - Will explain in next post
F-16B Block 1-15 MLU: 21 (First Batch Delivered in the 80s) - the error is RIGHT HERE - Will explain in next post

F-16A Block 1-15: 9 (Jordan) (Delivered in 2014)
F-16B Block 1-15: 4 (Jordan) (Delivered in 2014)

F-16C Block 52: 12 (Delivered in 2010)
F-16D Block 52: 6 (Delivered in 2010)

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 06 Apr 2019 00:40

Rakesh wrote:Okay, there are some *GLARING* holes in her story. But first let me point this from Lara Seligman. My notes are in red and blue.

F-16A Block 1-15 MLU: 24 (First Batch Delivered in the 80s) - the error is RIGHT HERE - Will explain in next post
F-16B Block 1-15 MLU: 21 (First Batch Delivered in the 80s) - the error is RIGHT HERE - Will explain in next post

Error #1: The Pakistan did not receive 45 F-16s, but only 40. See here...

http://www.f-16.net/f-16_users_article14.html

From the above link, please scroll to the Second hand purchase sub-heading....

* Four F-16Bs and Two F-16As were delivered in 1983. So that is 6 in 1983 under the Peace Gate I program.
* Then 26 F-16As and 8 F-16Bs were delivered in 1987. So that is 34 F-16s in 1987 under the Peace Gate II program..
* Therefore, 34 + 6 = 40 aircraft. From where is Aviation Week getting five more aircraft?

Error #2: As per the numbers in the tweet above, the PAF has 24 F-16As and 21 F-16Bs, for a total of 45 F-16 A/Bs.

That is *NOT* true. They had 28 F-16As and 12 F-16Bs, for a total of only 40 F-16 A/Bs.

A small number of F-16s have crashed in the 80s and 90s. I am trying to pull up some attrition numbers. Hold On.

Her Block 50/52 and Block 15ADF (ex-Jordanian Air Force) numbers are correct.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 06 Apr 2019 00:43

Please remember, Lara Seligman is a Pentagon Correspondent. And Aviation Week is her source.

The Pentagon has some explaining to do

Why did she just not ask the Pentagon? They will know. What does that tell you?

This is a classic hit job. Lifafa Piece is what that article is. The real question is who authored this hit piece? And Why?

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 06 Apr 2019 00:51

Admiral I think she is lying, you are levelling a far serious charge - She is pappu and hence cannot count?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 06 Apr 2019 00:52

fanne wrote:Admiral I think she is lying, you are levelling a far serious charge - She is pappu and hence cannot count?

On the contrary, why did she use Aviation Week as her source? Why did she not ask the Pentagon? They have this info!!!!

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 06 Apr 2019 00:59

Shameek wrote:It is amazing how coordinated these attacks are. Business Insider (Will not link to the cr@p article) has taken the FP article and written one of their own. Interestingly, their article promptly uses the F-16 claim to also promote that the Balakot strikes were a failure and everything is a big embarrassment for India. (The Government of course)
While we will of course never release classified information, we need to be better at the information/perception war. Not just our officials but our populace as well. The constant self doubt and requiring 'Western' affirmation has to change. We openly accept when US says 'We killed OBL' and yet we ask for proof from our own people. And on top of that we tend to chain link incidents and use one to disprove other ones. Trust, like faith is a binary, you either do or don't, no middle ground.

Welcome to Mainstream Media. Yes, it IS this bad. Haven't you been reading US/UQ/NATO reporting on the Syrian War? Why do you expect that the pigs who propped up the ISIS all these years will suddenly grow honesty?

Don't sit around

MAKE A LIST, ppl. Of all those who took up this propaganda to support global terrorism.

Laura Seligman
Stinker Gupta..

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 06 Apr 2019 01:03

Rakesh wrote:A small number of F-16s have crashed in the 80s and 90s. I am trying to pull up some attrition numbers. Hold On.

Found Something!!! Not sure how extensive this list is, but FWIW. The last entry is mine

But as per the list below.....10 F-16s have been lost to date (Two F-16Bs and Eight F-16As). And all ten losses are HULL losses. They have crashed and are no longer flight worthy. Therefore, there can be only 30 F-16A/Bs left from the first batch delivered in the 80s.

So 30 F-16A/Bs + 14 ex-Jordanian Air Force F-16A/Bs + 18 F-16 C/Ds = 62 aircraft. That is the PAF's fleet strength of the F-16.

How many did these so-called US inspectors count?

First Crash ---> Date: 18 December 1986
Aircraft: F-16/B Block-15U #81-1504
Details: Crashed in Sargodha while taking off due to wild-boar on runway and both pilots ejected safely.

Second Crash ---> Date: 29 April 1987
Aircraft: F-16/A Block-15S #81-0918
Details: Shot down in friendly fire while engaging enemy over Pakistan-Afghanistan border

Third Crash ---> Date: 4 September 1989
Aircraft: F-16/A Block-15Q #81-0916
Details: Crashed minutes after take-off from Sargodha as pilot was disoriented and subsequently died in the crash

Fourth Crash ---> Date: 19 June 1991
Aircraft: F-16/A Block-15T #81-0921
Details: Crashed near Kamra due to engine failure, subsequently forcing the pilot to eject.

Fifth Crash ---> Date: 28 October 1991
Aircraft: F-16/A Block-15U #81-0923
Details: Crashed near Attock due to engine failure during a dog-fight training mission, pilot ejected safely.

Sixth Crash ---> Date: 10 November 1993
Aircraft: F-16/A Block-15N #81-0937
Details: Crashed due to bird-hit, location of crash unknown, but pilots ejected safely.

Seventh Crash ---> Date: 17 March 1994
Aircraft: F-16/A Block-15S #81-0919
Details: Crashed near Sargodha, spatial disorientation caused the crash, pilot was killed.

Eighth Crash ---> Date: 22 October 1994
Aircraft: F-16/A Block-15E #81-0899
Details: Crashed near Sargodha, aircraft sustained bird-hit, pilot ejected safely.

Ninth Crash ---> Date: 17 July 2009
Aircraft: F-16/A Block-15AQ/OCU
Details: Crashed South-West of Sargodha on a night training mission, pilot was killed upon crash.

Tenth Crash ---> Date: 27 February 2019
Aircraft: F-16B Block-15
Details: Crashed in Pakistan-Occupied-Kashmir, after being shot down in a dogfight with a MiG-21 Bison piloted by Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman.

Manish Jain · Post by **Manish Jain** » 06 Apr 2019 01:07

UlanBatori wrote:

Laura Seligman
Stinker Gupta..

Ajai Shukla.

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 06 Apr 2019 01:10

^^Add to list
- Economic Times
- Kalyan Ray - Deccan Herald

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 06 Apr 2019 01:14

I hope the GOI gloves come off vis--vis the U.S. IMO, it should have come off the moment Pakis used F-16s and Amraams to attack India. We should've publicly chastised the U.S for arming a terrorist state. Also made it clear that Indo-U.S defence cooperation cannot continue if they arm Pakistan.

I think the U.S realized this (or maybe got a earful in private via Doval/Sushma). Which is why they made a hue and cry about pressurizing China on Masood Azhar. That dog-and-pony show lasted a few days.

As Ramana says, the FP farticle might be them barking at us due to the ASAT test. If we kick them out of a couple of defence deals, they will come back, hat-in-hand

Y I Patel · Post by **Y I Patel** » 06 Apr 2019 01:18

Vishnu Som now tweeting about detailed briefing from IAF

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 06 Apr 2019 01:18

Amazing that US H&D is so fragile that they can't take the reality of a 1971-vintage plane flown by terrorists getting downed after its TFTA pilots exited in fear.
I didn't understand the part about the 8-10 km separation between the 2 parachutes. Did the brave PAF WingCdr (pbuh) jump out first, or did the Back Seat Driver (pbuh)? How long does it take to go 8-10 km on full Afterburner? Lets' see... 450m/s That's 22 SECONDS between exits. That is a Looooong time when there is a missile behind u.. Can't understand this point.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 06 Apr 2019 01:22

Their H&D is indeed very fragile onlee. You see that on the American apologists on BRF

Cannot take any criticism. They are so used to passing judgments on others, that when countered they are aghast in disgust and horror

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 06 Apr 2019 01:22

Twitter Feed of Vishnu Som's briefing that he received from the IAF ---> https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1114 ... 39681.html

YashG · Post by **YashG** » 06 Apr 2019 01:22

Another smoking gun. If US team counted the F16s and PAF showed a clean record - then ISPR would have reported the same by itself. It wouldnt have waited for seligman's article ( or unless they knew it ).

But most likely this inspection never gives a clear picture down to the last A/C- it must somehow have a degree of amorphousness, subjectivity that allows pentagon to report either. So even paf didnt know what this inspection will come out like.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 06 Apr 2019 01:27

If the GOI wants to play the psy-ops game, all it needs to do is have Rajat Pandit say something like the following, quoting a highly placed MEA official

We don't respond to half baked articles quoting unnamed sources. We believe that the U.S State Dept and White House don't see eye to eye on this issue. Just like how NASA and NORAD didn't see eye to eye on satellite debris. We also have reason to believe that the various arms of the U.S govt are conflicted about selling weaponry to a state sponsor of terror. We sincerely hope they sort out these internal differences

1) They cannot say they aren't conflicted - that would amount to admitting that they arm state sponsors of terror
2) They cannot officially confirm that the F-16 count is correct - that would amount to the U.S Govt officially lying
3) Not saying anything would mean that the FP article is a piece of trash & that they indeed lost an F-16, which is why they are officially silent

banrjeer · Post by **banrjeer** » 06 Apr 2019 01:35

ranneel wrote:
pralay wrote: OT here but we can create a graf d b of such things which will be very interesting but will need some funding as well.
One way is to either use closed bitbucket/git to work on a set of tools to perform required actions.The results could be published on a thread which is behind the burqa.

Bitbucket vs. GitLab.com
https://about.gitlab.com/2015/04/15/bit ... itlab-com/

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 06 Apr 2019 02:06

Y I Patel wrote:I despair about Indian Military’s ability to achieve anything meaningful. Tomorrow they might occupy some arbitrary piece of land and claim that they pushed Pak Army out. If Pak Army never occupied that land in the first place, clearly this would be a pre election gimmick by Modi.

You why are you politicizing this F16 matter by bringing in Modi?

Go back and edit your post.

Y I Patel · Post by **Y I Patel** » 06 Apr 2019 02:12

ramana wrote:

You why are you politicizing this F16 matter by bringing in Modi?

Go back and edit your post.

Wow. Did not expect this for something that was intended to imply something entirely different. Nevertheless, since emotions are high, I will delete post.

As a member of long standing and therefore a known entity I am disappointed by this reaction.