MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

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vimal
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby vimal » 06 Apr 2019 12:02

Next time IAF should say that we shot down 4 F-16s. Then Pakis will agree to 2 at least.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 06 Apr 2019 12:15

Prem Kumar-> More than the US, history of lying by Pakis and friendly lobbyists by Pakis in US should be exposed.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby vishals » 06 Apr 2019 12:16

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... Ye62H.html

The United States defence department on Friday said it was “not aware” of any investigation that was conducted to ascertain if Pakistan had lost an F-16 in a dogfight with Indian fighter jets on February 27, contrary to a report by a news publication that had gone on to say, citing unidentified defence officials, the count revealed none was missing.

A US defence department spokesman told Hindustan Times in a statement that they, the department, “weren’t aware of any investigation like that”, that was said to have been conducted, according to unidentified defence officials cited in the FP report, and referred this reporter to the Department of State.

The state department distanced itself from the news report saying in response to a direct request to confirm or deny it, “As a matter of policy, the Department does not publicly comment on details of government-to-government agreements on end-use monitoring of US-origin defence articles.”

And it went on to reiterate its stated policy on Pakistan: “It is important to note that since January 2018, the United States government has suspended security assistance to Pakistan.”

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby habal » 06 Apr 2019 12:22

It is exactly as per script predicted right here.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby sudhan » 06 Apr 2019 12:40

Now the reporter will 'stand by her story' as her sources were as good as god's own word...

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Singha » 06 Apr 2019 13:22

Can someone on teetar send the link to indian defence journos?

Hahahahaha

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Prem Kumar » 06 Apr 2019 13:22

Prem Kumar wrote:Point out that U.S is a divided house & their own President doesn't trust their media. NORAD doesn't trust NASA. WH doesn't trust the deep state


Wow - didn't think I'd be proved right so soon! Pentagon just came out with a statement that its unaware of any F-16 counting exercise :rotfl: :rotfl:

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/not-aware-pentagon-on-pak-f-16-count-after-feb-aerial-dogfight-with-iaf/story-Rw4gSknuuSBnMc2EyYe62H.html

Bheda guys, bheda! There is dissent in their ranks. India is clearly appearing a lot more united than the U.S right now. To recap:

1) White House & media don't trust each other
2) NORAD and NASA don't trust each other
3) White House and deep state don't trust each other
4) Pentagon and State Dept don't trust each other

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby partha » 06 Apr 2019 13:41

I'm trying to wrap my head around this so called counting of F16s. First of all, it must be hugely embarrassing for F16 users like Pakistan that they have to present their jets for counting as if they don't own it at all. Looks like prison roll calls! How does the counting happen? US officials visit all the airbases which house F16 and physically count them? If there was an actual counting, Pakistan would have given it a lot of publicity since according to Pakistan it didn't lose an F16 so nothing to hide. Hard to believe there was any counting at all. Pentagon clarification makes sense.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby syam » 06 Apr 2019 13:43

:eek: Hory shite!!! Why trumpin humiling pakis like this? :((

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby arun » 06 Apr 2019 14:16

khan wrote:I assume you were being sarcastic.

My point was this Foreign Policy magazine is a well known reputable outlet - which translates into establishment mouth piece.

This type of an attack on GOI credibility cannot be wished away. If GOI’s story wasn’t for morale boosting (which is perfectly legitimate in war time IMO) & GOI wants to stick with its story, and GOI wants it’s narrative to maintain any credibility, it will have to respond.

And I am happy to note that there was a good response.


Let me clear the air by writing that there was no sarcasm directed at you in my statement of agreement with you.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Rishi » 06 Apr 2019 14:58

Do pentagon/LM officials go around like Bangalore RTO cops and check chassis numbers below the windscreen? What kind of a crap job it that?

Wait, then do they do the same for all Amreki eqpt with IAF as well?

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Prem Kumar » 06 Apr 2019 15:18

Its not just a slap in the face of Pakistan. Its a slap on State Dept's face. That FP farticle was a huge mistake & embarrassment for the U.S. Their double-speak & internal squabbles stand exposed.

I am waiting for an official statement from the State Dept that the FP journalist was a non-state actor :D . If you sleep with Pakistan, you will start thinking like them.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby sudhan » 06 Apr 2019 15:20

This a massive 'chaddi uttaro' done on the doubters.. the turncoats in the media showed their true colors too soon..

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Singha » 06 Apr 2019 15:21

there is a entire division and embassy staff worldwide dedicated to end user monitoring

the overview is here
https://www.dsca.mil/about-us/end-use-monitoring-eum

a list of sensitive weapons and a detailed process including serial number visual verfication to be carried out is here
https://www.samm.dsca.mil/chapter/chapter-8#C8.T4.

of the stuff we have, the ones subject to end user monitoring may be
LAIRCM - large a/c IR defensive aids - its the VVIP b737 jets
harpoons block2 - that came with P8I
COMSEC - did we ever sign on or we asked to fit our own kit? this one even has NSA in the loop *shiver shiver*

Pakis would have harpoons, amraam, tow2b, stingers and ofcourse the revered F-solahs on the verify list.

the verification visits are never surprise visits per that process. its always notified in advance in some window. and anyway the pakis have the western consulate staff eating out of their hands with great lifestyle and hospitality in islamabad. I doubt the saheeb does anything more than drive in on his SUV, sign off on some prepared lists, do a cursory walkaround , eat a sumptuous lunch with the officers and wave goodbye :)

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Singha » 06 Apr 2019 15:23

partha wrote:I'm trying to wrap my head around this so called counting of F16s. First of all, it must be hugely embarrassing for F16 users like Pakistan that they have to present their jets for counting as if they don't own it at all. Looks like prison roll calls! How does the counting happen? US officials visit all the airbases which house F16 and physically count them? If there was an actual counting, Pakistan would have given it a lot of publicity since according to Pakistan it didn't lose an F16 so nothing to hide. Hard to believe there was any counting at all. Pentagon clarification makes sense.


see my links above. serial number verification is a must for sensitive weapons ON PAPER. likewise the f16s may also have some number imprinted on the airframe and not just painted on tail numbers.

but really will a big saheeb on a 'hardship trip' in his luxury SUV to some airbase or weapons bunker spend the whole day opening boxes of missiles and noting serial numbers? 500 amraam boxes ? 500 jdam boxes ? far better to have a tall cold one in officers mess and have a paki orderly go and count it and report back with a list (all ticked :twisted: ) ... ofcourse boxes may be there but a few missiles sent to china for analysis.

for countries with a lot of US weapons under EUM, its really not cost effective to keep consulate staff devoted to doing this. so I wonder how much is based on trust.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Singha » 06 Apr 2019 15:39

ISPR has passed a firman that ensures no retired officer who comes to TV will inadvertently let anything slip.
they will be given a script and told to stick to it.
only one they may not be able to control is Musharaff.

Image

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 06 Apr 2019 15:44

In Pakistan's case it all the more important since one of the earlier lot of F16's was illegally transported to PRC for close inspection presumably by Russian and Chinese engineers. Thats why Paki army quickly loaded the F16 drop tank and debris in a truck but let the Mig21 Bison wreakage for days for media Paki army and public to pise for pictures.
US is also sensitive to industrial espionage on thier systems, they were very angry Soko tampered with the F15 Flir called"Tiger Eyes"

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby UlanBatori » 06 Apr 2019 16:04

Prem Kumar wrote:Its not just a slap in the face of Pakistan. Its a slap on State Dept's face. That FP farticle was a huge mistake & embarrassment for the U.S. Their double-speak & internal squabbles stand exposed.

I am waiting for an official statement from the State Dept that the FP journalist was a non-state actor :D . If you sleep with Pakistan, you will start thinking like them.


Not yet. But if someone were to come out in, say, Sw****** or Sundin Gua****** or ********* with an article clearly citing the Foreign Polis article MANY times, and debunking it more or less line by line, THAT would do it. It needs to stay up on the 'Net as proof that Foreign Policy is a bunch of Gobbles. Very useful for the next researcher.

And then this article should be RT'ed 1,732,000 times 72.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby UlanBatori » 06 Apr 2019 16:07

Meanwhile, POOF from UBCN on PAF F-16 number count

They are all there. Foreign Polis / State Department Ambassadors / Liara Whatzit went there and counted them personally. In some cases the numbers on PAF fleet at Gujranwala may be misread as 91-L or 91-A with some paint missing.
Plus THIS 91-A
Plus THIS one piloted by PAF Air Chief Marshal Bandar (only co-pilot shown since he's the one qualified to drive it).

Plus THIS ONE on lend-lease to PAF Skardu, equipped to carry New Cooler weapons

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby abhijitm » 06 Apr 2019 16:18

Good thing about this is some people quickly come out of closet and show their true colors.

one bldy unnamed report and suddenly sky start falling for them, start questioning own armed forces and their integrity.

This is purely your word against mine type of scenario. Nothing can be or will be or better should be proved in public. Mind chooses the version what it wants to believe.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby ranneel » 06 Apr 2019 16:20

Imran criticises BJP over US magazine's report on F16, says truth always prevails
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 752963.cms

Immy is going to look like a fool now!

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Prasad » 06 Apr 2019 17:07

Atleast folks on BR should know by now that unless proven otherwise EVERYBODY is against you. Look at everything with a skeptical eye and wait for confirmation of any bit of news, be it positive or negative. No need to jump up and down. Not even with official confirmation from overseas, given the games they all play!

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby SaiK » 06 Apr 2019 18:15

Singha wrote:Can someone on teetar send the link to indian defence journos?

Hahahahaha


GD, your id?

Here is mine to Vishnu.
https://twitter.com/saikanomie/status/1 ... 99168?s=19
Last edited by SaiK on 06 Apr 2019 18:17, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby fanne » 06 Apr 2019 18:17

how do they say it Lair lair pant on Fire!!

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby khan » 06 Apr 2019 19:04

SaiK wrote:
Singha wrote:Can someone on teetar send the link to indian defence journos?

Hahahahaha


GD, your id?

Here is mine to Vishnu.
https://twitter.com/saikanomie/status/1 ... 99168?s=19

IMO this doesn’t mean much. These inspections are done by DOS, not DOD. Someone should ask DOS what they want to put on the record.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Rakesh » 06 Apr 2019 19:05

SaiK wrote:
Singha wrote:Can someone on teetar send the link to indian defence journos?

Hahahahaha


GD, your id?

Here is mine to Vishnu.
https://twitter.com/saikanomie/status/1 ... 99168?s=19

Someone please tweet this to the author of the FP article?

‘Not aware’: Pentagon on Pak F-16 count after Feb aerial dogfight with IAF
https://m.hindustantimes.com/india-news ... H_amp.html

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Rakesh » 06 Apr 2019 19:16

Re-producing my own post (from page 55 of this thread) in light of the article above ^^^

Rakesh wrote:Please remember, Lara Seligman is a Pentagon Correspondent. And Aviation Week is her source.

The Pentagon has some explaining to do :lol: Why did she just not ask the Pentagon? They will know. What does that tell you?

This is a classic hit job. Lifafa Piece is what that article is. The real question is who authored this hit piece? And Why?

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby ldev » 06 Apr 2019 19:18

If there is one thing that has become apparent in US media reports over the last 2 years is this. If a news report has a sentence which says, " Sources with (direct) knowledge of the matter have told us", it is likely to be total BS. Don't waste any more time reading further. Only read reports where the source is willing to go on record. In this case you had the IAF willing to go on record telling it's side of the story vs a reporter in the US with "sources with knowledge of the matter". No contest as to whom to believe. And now the US officially has denied that such a count/investigation took place.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby nam » 06 Apr 2019 19:42

ranneel wrote:Imran criticises BJP over US magazine's report on F16, says truth always prevails
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 752963.cms

Immy is going to look like a fool now!


So the dimmer needs a report b unnamed source to prove PAF has not lost a F16.. Being PM of the country he does not know when the count was done.. :rotfl:

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby gakakkad » 06 Apr 2019 20:13

ldev wrote:If there is one thing that has become apparent in US media reports over the last 2 years is this. If a news report has a sentence which says, " Sources with (direct) knowledge of the matter have told us", it is likely to be total BS. Don't waste any more time reading further. Only read reports where the source is willing to go on record. In this case you had the IAF willing to go on record telling it's side of the story vs a reporter in the US with "sources with knowledge of the matter". No contest as to whom to believe. And now the US officially has denied that such a count/investigation took place.


That's a tendency they have copied from their Desi biraathers aka ndtv etc . Wapo and ny toilet paper completely sound like ddm including the choice of words or psy-ops techniques. Shoot and scoot , story from mush claiming un-named sources etc

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Najunamar » 06 Apr 2019 20:28

Gakakkadji, I strongly object. The TFTA WaPo and NYT types don't take cues from our DDM but it is the other way round. These techniques were perfected by Massa and passed on to our DDM.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby saip » 06 Apr 2019 20:44

If counting was done it would have been done in pakisatan, right? Then ISPR joker would have known and would have gone to town with it. Can't understand how some unknown officials sitting on their toilets would know that counting was done but not the ISPR joker.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby williams » 06 Apr 2019 21:25

I will have to say this. So far GOI and IAF have dealt with this whole issue of proving their action in a very professional manner. They have taken this approach which says, "We have stated facts and it is entirely up to you to take it or leave it. We will not waste our time to prove it".

International media houses which still carry colonial racist tendencies is trying to discredit GOI official statements. People (including our media, politicians and defense analysts) who still look up to their colonial masters wanted GOI to come out with proof. Pakistan is simply exploiting this situation to calm their common Abduls.

I think GOI is intentionally letting this ambiguity to prevail. It gives them room to keep Pakistan in lower levels of escalation while GOI can escalate up and down whenever they wish to do so. This is what makes the Pakis cry for de-escalation while GOI maintains brutal silence.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby manjgu » 06 Apr 2019 21:51

saip...good point.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby gauravsh » 06 Apr 2019 22:16

https://twitter.com/VishnuNDTV/status/1114183101645639681
So the govt has already shown some proof to the journos. Also confirms the presence of phalcon

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby nam » 06 Apr 2019 22:47

Gafoora say 2 pilot, one died in hospital! It is March 5 interview.

Watch at 1:00 onwards

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby fanne » 07 Apr 2019 00:10

How can you go wrong with two pilots, with one is hospital and dead. There is a dead pilot and it is not Indian

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby UlanBatori » 07 Apr 2019 01:03

New poll shows that 33 percent of Indians believe Rahul Gandhi has intelligence (somewhere), 32 percent believe his promises about the ANYAY program, and 32 percent believe that no F-16 was shot down. Go figure! (hope some kind soul will tweet this.. no Twitter access in Mongolia)
Last edited by UlanBatori on 07 Apr 2019 01:22, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby UlanBatori » 07 Apr 2019 01:04

Also please tweet those pictures of the Full-Count of F-16s / 91-A's.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby pralay » 07 Apr 2019 09:47

Now the enemy is trying to remove the analysis videos which show the Mig21 turning away after shooting F16,
received 2 youtube copyright strikes :D
there seems to be serious heartburn on the opposite side... :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:


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