MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

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manjgu
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby manjgu » 07 Apr 2019 13:24

should not we be asking for the body of the pilot !! if gafool says 1 indian pilot was killed in hospital ...i mean even by 5th march they could not make up their minds?? this is insane !!!!

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby YashG » 07 Apr 2019 14:20

Circumstantial Evidence that Lara Seligman & her FP Article was special interest action

1. Lara Seligman (form hereon LS) hasn't reported on India before. Since Oct 25 - She has done 75 stories on FP since only 3 i.e. 4% stories on India.
Of these all 3 have been since the Balakot strikes.

2. Look at these articles. LS picked up indian story on Feb 27 ( https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/02/27/in ... -pakistan/). Her entire story is backed by named diplomatic sources.

3. Her next story - https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/03/05/in ... -pakistan/ -
Is about how Indian Mig loss could speed up indian aircraft contract. ( No prizes for guessing who will benefit). Her entire story has private analysts - majorly Loren Thompson.

Now who is Loren Thompson? (https://www.forbes.com/sites/lorenthomp ... dd94e82a3b) He gets money from Boeing, Lockheed & the folks.
The Lexington Institute receives funding from many of the nation’s leading defense contractors, including Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Raytheon and United Technologies.


LS has a good connect, probably a trustful connect with Loren. LS has cited/quoted Loren thompson atleast in 7 seven stories in 2019. Loren probably enjoys LS's confidence & trust.
-------------------------
In my previous experience of managing media for a GoI owned institute - I know journalists take a lot of cue form their most trusted sources, even pick up story ideas from them. Any scoop and it is all the better.
--------------------------
So back to the story - the article also says
"MiG-21 successfully shot down an F-16, some observers said Russia could use that narrative to criticize U.S. platforms and potentially gain an advantage in the competition."


Again this was about F16's sales & directed from behind the scenes by the LM, Boeing etc. special guys.

4. Her third story, obviously cites unnamed sources about the count to debunk the F16 story.

5. LS is doing a large number of stories single-handedly ( Good researched articles take time) she has done 22 single-handed stories @ 1 every three day (since feb1). This doesn't give u enough time to research & create depth of your sources. Her colleague (Robbie Gramer - who also co-authored feb 27 story) for e.g. has done only 13 single-handed stories in as many days.

6 In the end in Journo ladder - it is the scoops that matter and not the quantity. LS probably wanted to do a "scoop". She called the story the same thing in her tweet -" SCOOP: A U.S. count of Pakistan's F-16 fleet has found that all the jets are present and accounted for - a direct contradiction to India's claim that it shot down one of the fighter jets during a February clash."

7. Sometimes journos get played in search of scoop. Often the less experienced ones. LS is an young (only 8 years in this field) probably ambitious journo. She probably got played by the arms lobby. Someone planted a story thru her, she fell for it.

8. By quoting Asia Times in defence of her articles, she has reinforced her naivety. Asia times is a biased source ( based in HongKong, most likely controlled by Chinese Military)
https://twitter.com/laraseligman/status ... 8332576768
"Great follow-up story that backs up my scoop. Important point: All four missiles on board the Indian MiG-21 were recovered from the wreckage after it was shot down by Pakistan air defense, according to the story"

Again "Scoop" To hell with truth, the scoop matters. She's obsessed with her scoop!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What I infer from this :
#1. Pakis had no idea of this story, it was directed by the arms lobby guys for their 'maan - samman'.
#2. Someone didnt like Mig21 ----> F-16 and wanted to create a counter-narrative.
#3. They tried using the incident as a plank to speed up sales!
#4. Im sure there are details of this alleged "counting" that will have some holes.
#5. If LS was got into writing this, then throwing up good evidence from IAF,GoI's side will deter more people to do hit jobs. Probably LS could go back and revisit her sources too based on latest evidence, if she cares.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Singha » 07 Apr 2019 14:54

many pakis seem themselves unaware of that fact that seeker heads survive the AAM explosion intact.

when provided the pics of their own army collecting the intact seeker of the AIM9L near lahore from parakram days, they start fighting saying the khaki dress is no more used. yeah sure PA has the cool khan certified digital camo now, but physics and AAM design layout has not changed in 20 years

I think the ISPR PA came up with the plan to showcase all the 4 missiles under the look Abhi did not fire any missile wiley coyote plan.

as usual they did not consult the PAF , any of whose technical people or pilots could have told them the above.

and then the photos leaked , once leaked there is no going back - so now they go around like a street seller trying to sell those 4 missiles and everyone laughs and points to the above :D

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby nam » 07 Apr 2019 15:21

Singha wrote:when provided the pics of their own army collecting the intact seeker of the AIM9L near lahore from parakram days, they start fighting saying the khaki dress is no more used. yeah sure PA has the cool khan certified digital camo now, but physics and AAM design layout has not changed in 20 years



Mangoes from western front on twitter seem to believe a PA soldier himself carries the Aim9L towards the aircraft, when they used to wear khaki uniform. Now it goes by itself.

I have no other explanation on the relation between uniform color and heat seekers. :lol:

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby SidSoma » 07 Apr 2019 16:48

Sumair wrote:A broad sentiment by most people nicely summed up by Shekhar Gupta


Please remove this junk link of absolute nonsense. It has been fairly well established that shekhar Gupta is an unpad gawar when it comes to defence matters and has displayed all traits of Paid media (this video was put up just hours after the FP post). This has been well refuted by IAF and junk like this does not deserve place in BRF.

Broad sentiment : a term used to push lahori logic as gospel truth. and who are the "most ppl" you are talking about. Most ppl here (other than link pushers) detest the polluted perspectives being peddled here. This just shows that neither have you been reading the thoughts and analysis from previous pages nor have you done any research on this topic yourself.

Now this is a link worth watching and reflects broad sentiment https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jVzsgMUoI0

Admins please delete the post and at the very least warn the poster
Last edited by SidSoma on 07 Apr 2019 17:05, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby MeshaVishwas » 07 Apr 2019 16:56

^^+72 Virgin Goats.
Need to be cautious of such false flag pricks.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby chola » 07 Apr 2019 17:07

There is no longer any useful discussion here IMHO. Until there is a new official IAF or GOI statement regarding the affair, I've simply stopped following anything in regards to it.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby VikramA » 07 Apr 2019 17:09

RECOMMEND READERS TO CLICK THE LINK AS ACTICLE HAS PHOTOS

In PAF lies & subterfuge, an F-16 tail number & a PAF pilot  —  both hidden to serve a myth
https://theprint.in/defence/in-paf-lies ... th/218125/

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Rakesh » 07 Apr 2019 17:29

Everyone please read the above article by retired IAF Pilot, Sameer Joshi. It is an awesome read.

Same article as above, but different link. Whichever one works, go for it and read it. Highly recommended.

‘THE SLIP BETWEEN THE CUP AND THE LIP’
https://medium.com/@sameerjoshi73/the-s ... 52f1bd7171

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Rakesh » 07 Apr 2019 17:32

Karan, when you see this post ---> another one by Coupta for you to refute :) Talking nonsense as usual.

India should look beyond 27 Feb numbers & build a stronger defence against Pakistan


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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby ldev » 07 Apr 2019 18:15

YashG wrote:Circumstantial Evidence that Lara Seligman & her FP Article was special interest action


Great analysis. I too think she got played (by who exactly is uncertain) and the reiteration via the Global Times article was doubling down to protect her "scoop". As you have correctly stated, she is not experienced enough to realize that Global Times is a Chinese proxy and quoting that article in support of her scoop further devalues her credentials.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Sumair » 07 Apr 2019 19:11

SidSoma wrote:
Sumair wrote:A broad sentiment by most people nicely summed up by Shekhar Gupta


Please remove this junk link of absolute nonsense. It has been fairly well established that shekhar Gupta is an unpad gawar when it comes to defence matters and has displayed all traits of Paid media (this video was put up just hours after the FP post). This has been well refuted by IAF and junk like this does not deserve place in BRF.

Broad sentiment : a term used to push lahori logic as gospel truth. and who are the "most ppl" you are talking about. Most ppl here (other than link pushers) detest the polluted perspectives being peddled here. This just shows that neither have you been reading the thoughts and analysis from previous pages nor have you done any research on this topic yourself.

Now this is a link worth watching and reflects broad sentiment https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jVzsgMUoI0

Admins please delete the post and at the very least warn the poster


No need to get personal my friend. There is nothing sacrilege in that video. You miss the broader point; is this 1:1 a victory for us?! The ostrich mentality is a paki specialty, we should not stoop to that level.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby hnair » 07 Apr 2019 19:13

So how will the pakis hide the crash from now on?

Fudge all internal (confidential) paperwork in post-sortie by
- getting the surviving pilot of the f16 and pair him with another one who did not participate, but was in base
- report a crash (either a past one kept secret or as a new one) of the twin seater
- refurb back a frame used by chinese to study f16 with help of turkey, so count is maintained

Since the PAF official denial that F16 was not used, khan also will have plausible deniability. plus khan is under no obligation to say "one new one missing, but old ones make up the final tally"

Also those Indians posting endlessly about "khan prohibits F16 usage, therefore it is illegal" need to stop embarrassing themselves! The US ambassador to pakistan has justified during sale-timeof newer F16s that she expects theses F16s and AMRAAM to hold back IAF for the crucial few days of war, before international arbitration kicks in and pakis escape Indian anger at disgusting terror attacks.

Regional Stability
------------------

11. (C) To overcome overwhelming Indian military
superiority, Pakistan developed both its nuclear/missile
program and its air power. F-16 aircraft, armed with
AMRAAMS, essentially buy time to delay Pakistan considering
the nuclear option in a conflict with India.
Given India's
overwhelming military superiority, this would only be a few
days, but these days would allow critical time to mediate and
prevent nuclear conflict.

12. (C) India enjoys an almost 2-1 advantage (736 to 370)
over Pakistan in advanced multi-purpose fighters. Pakistan's
shortfalls in training and tactics multiply India's edge.
Pakistan also plans to buy/jointly produce 150 inferior JF-17
fighters from China, but it is unclear how they will pay for
them. Meanwhile, India plans to acquire 126 multi-purpose
fighters (F-18 or equivalent) that will give the GOI
significant new technologies and further expand its air
superiority over Pakistan.


The argument 12 (C) that the MMRCA would cause more imbalance is a figleaf - MMRCA has been effectively stalled since then and if using her logic, the imbalance is to paki advantage with the prompt AMRAAM supply

The only purpose of that particular sale is to kill Indian citizens who are defending their country against aggression by pakis. Constantly harping on "F16 used illegally" is giving any sanctity to the destabilizing sale of AMRAAM

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 07 Apr 2019 19:46

Sumair wrote:No need to get personal my friend. There is nothing sacrilege in that video. You miss the broader point; is this 1:1 a victory for us?! The ostrich mentality is a paki specialty, we should not stoop to that level.


Are you even aware of the amount of half truths peddled in that video. And you claim that this was a 1:1 without even having the ability to discern India struck Pakistan, their retaliation was a damp squib, and all the PAF has now is the propaganda war which some guys are falling for. Please think!

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby eklavya » 07 Apr 2019 20:21

What Abhinandan achieved in his MiG-21 Bison is in the David vs Goliath league. His bravery and skill deserves so much respect.

Talk of 1:1 is irrelevant. Would anyone say 1:1 if an F-7PG had shot down an upgraded Mirage 2000 after taking the fight to the adversary.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 07 Apr 2019 20:32

There are a bunch of BS claims as usual by Gupta. He's pretending to be all-objective and reasonable, but the fact is his theory is completely without merit.

1. Indian missiles were outranged by Pakistans. Mica was the savior.
False: We have R77s which match the AMRAAMs and actually both R77 and AMRAAM outrange the Mica. BVR game is about many factors beside raw range, so this is not a wholly accurate comparison, but Gupta's claim of Mica being the answer alone is ridiculous as his claim we were outranged.

2. We need more AWACS and delay is DRDO blah blah.
False: This is yet another example of how Gupta almost *always* pushes for imports while disparaging local efforts and making fake claims. The fact is the IAF put up a file for 2 more Phalcons ages ago, and the file was stuck at MOD because of cost with MOF re-examining it. Proof: (https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 765253.cms) Note this entire fracas happened because Russia hiked up its prices for the airframes, Israel folllowed suit and the overall deal price shot up, and a cash strapped Indian establishment then engaged in heavy bargaining to drive the price down (https://www.telegraphindia.com/india/ph ... cid/625643). Note this report is from a decade back!
Furthermore, the DRDO's AWACS programs has now come good with 2 of its Netras in IOC configuration being useful enough that one was actually used to coordinate the IAFs strike at Balakot (https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/iaf-str ... ot-1999729)
Also, the DRDO AWACS to follow this one, AWACS India program only envisages 2 AWACS in its first version, and more will be ordered thereafter and that is several years out with approvals etc yet to follow for the aircraft acquisition. To then imply this is holding up Phalcon is stupid and disingenuous.

Furthermore, India has inducted over a 100 radars of various types to recapitalize its Air Defence from India (DRDO/BEL), Israel (Elta) and France (Thales), with half of them from Indian sources. Couple of dozen more radars were acquired via SAM purchases (Akash, SpyDer), and another 50 odd radars are in the procurement pipeline via both DRDO programs which have cleared trials (Arudhra MPR/LLTR), and the SAM systems on verge of production which IAF has ordered (MRSAM). This is even ignoring the radars (surveillance and fire control which will come via the S-400 deal signed by the Modi led GOI, which will come with at least, 10 long range search radars and around 20 fire control radars capable of performing surveillance as well. This is apart from other DRDO programs which have approval and are in development (mountain/ high power radars).

To focus purely on the AWACS ignores the IAFs investments in its infrastructure including AFNET and the IACCS both of which network all these sensors. Then there are the not so talked about "electronic aids", from defence satellites aiding communication to SIGINT sensors (Divya Drishti) and Project Himraj, the IAF has seen a sea change in its ability to track what its opponents are doing without using any active sensors.

3. India "orders more of each type", at 5x the budget we don't have dissuasion etc.
Half truths for the narrative: First, lets see the real assessment of what the 5x budget buys India. The US Ambassador to Pakistan noted: India enjoys an almost 2-1 advantage (736 to 370) over Pakistan in advanced multi-purpose fighters. Pakistan's shortfalls in training and tactics multiply India's edge. Pakistan also plans to buy/jointly produce 150 inferior JF-17 fighters from China, but it is unclear how they will pay for them.
In short, India has more advanced fighters currently, and an advantage in training. It is seeking to buy better while Pakistan inducts inferior.

Furthermore, India has also purchased over 270 Su-30s (2 engine airframes which are superior and more expensive than any PAF aircraft), and with the Modi led GOI, 36x Rafales and 5x squadrons of the S-400. It has also cleared the Tejas MK1A program by paying for its development costs, pending which program the total Tejas in service will be 123 airframes and pending the MWF program development (derived frm Tejas, we will have over 300 Tejas in service).

Gupta makes the extraordinarily ridiculous assertion that despite spending "so much" we have not been able to deter Pakistan. He argues that IAF has spent its money on multiple airframes, buying more of each, rather than focusing on quality. This argument is - to put it mildly - stupid beyond measure.

First, the IAF is limited by the budget given to it. Does it even have money to buy new airframes to replace all of its old ones with new planes? Clearly not, given ridiculous excuse after excuse was trotted out by the then UPA Govt to string along a crucial MMRCA purchase.

Second, it makes far more sense in such an environment, to upgrade airframes which have significant life left in them. The Bison which shot down a F-16 was an airframe made in the 80s, but updated with sensors from the early 2000s and weapons developed thereafter. It was potent enough to knock down a much more ostensibly advanced fighter when used skillfully.
The IAF has made do with what it had.

Third, the 5x budget is misleading. Its the budget for the entire military which is 5x that of a claimed Pakistani one (anyone sensible would note Pakistan has no system in place to have its military spend be open), as mentioned above, has gone into a range of radars, fighter upgrades, new weapons (like the SPICE bombs used in the Balakot strike), training its pilots, flying its planes and also buying additional essential requirements like new helicopters and transports which are of immense use in peacetime (civilian disaster relief) or even wartime (moving men and material rapidly).

Fourth, so even if we have this budget why don't we spend more. The answer quite clearly should take a look at the "lost decade" under Mr Manmohan Singh and his claimed Govt. Claimed, because governance clearly was not a strong suit and crucial time was lost.

When the Modi led Govt took over, they stared at the following - crippling ammunition shortages, limited serviceability of our frontline assets, and stalled indigenous development limited by deliberately undercut budgetary allocations. The Modi led GOI has worked to fix the tough things first, rather than take the easy way out of just buying overnight and calling it a success. To address the stalled local supply, the Tejas program was cleared and fixed, DRDO's PGM programs were accelerated (by giving them the necessary funding), and detailed solutions found out working with Russian vendors for our Su-30 fleet serviceability and their munitions package. For getting additional immediate punch, the Modi led GOI ordered 36x Rafale, and 5xS-400 squadrons plus of course, fixed the LCA program. The ammunition reserves were built up with thousands of crores of orders and financial powers devolved to the vice Service Chief level, so they could order quickly and rapidly without surrendering defence funds back to the Finance Ministry.
Even so, obviously our needs remain huge.

I leave it to people with common sense to decide whether a GOI which already spends a huge chunk of its federal budget on the military, could overnight hike it to make for decades of neglect and whether that is easily doable in a nation which elected its new Govt expecting rapid changes in its socioeconomic conditions.
Having said that, it is equally undeniable, that from an AF or military which would struggle to wage conflict a few years back, we are now at the phase wherein we do have the assets to defend ourselves and also undertake punitive missions like the Balakot strike. The trajectory of improvement is obvious irrespective of what Mr Gupta says.

The one key gap that remains in front of this Govt, thanks to the deliberate nonchalance shown by the UPA towards Indian strategic interests, is the emerging fighter gap. Around 8 squadrons of MiG-27s, MiG-21s will retire soon, and the inductions in the pipeline are 2x squadrons of the Rafale, 5x LCA, 1x Su-30 MKI and of course the S-400 which will free up IAF fighters from CAP/Air superiority to focus on strike. Even as the above airframes, retire and are replaced with an equivalent number of newer airframes, it becomes clear as to why the IAFs focus on airframe refurbishment, upgrade is so crucial. They keep Mirage 2000s, MiG-29s, Jaguars in play longer, to allow for funding led procurement of MMRCA and additional Su-30, MiG-29 and other airframes to come in. This will allow IAF to aim for its intended 42 squadron force above and beyond the 31 squadrons that exist today.

This is a sensible strategy and whilst not ideal (who wouldn't have preferred a tree of infinite money allowing us to buy away overnight) allows us to upgrade our defenses without breaking the bank.

It is worth noting that with upgrades, our fighters are still superior to most of what PAF fields and even equivalent to most of what PRC is inducting.

The IAFs focus indeed will be more and more on sensors and networking and mass deployment of local munitions, which have the potential to completely change the IAFs warfighting and rapidly increase its per strike destructiveness.

Gupta mentions none of this.




Rakesh wrote:Karan, when you see this post ---> another one by Coupta for you to refute :) Talking nonsense as usual.

India should look beyond 27 Feb numbers & build a stronger defence against Pakistan


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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby YashG » 07 Apr 2019 21:03

ldev wrote:
YashG wrote:Circumstantial Evidence that Lara Seligman & her FP Article was special interest action


Great analysis. I too think she got played (by who exactly is uncertain) and the reiteration via the Global Times article was doubling down to protect her "scoop". As you have correctly stated, she is not experienced enough to realize that Global Times is a Chinese proxy and quoting that article in support of her scoop further devalues her credentials.


Yes @Idev- She got played. Journos with a clean background are great for planting stories - it comes out as rather neutral then.
Also I really wish she should go back - redo some research/revisit her sources ( It wont be a 'scoop' then - but a 'coup' in our favor - :D - if she cares for reporting ethics)

And if I was in IAF PR, I'd promise her a real scoop in exchange of this. I actually did this during my time of managing media for a GoI institute. I once gave a positive scoop to a journalist from a major english daily ( no. 1 at that time in circulation) while he was angling for a negative news that was sure to hit the papers the next day. ( Oh I can tell you it was quite a coup at that time ). Just saying this really works.
Last edited by YashG on 07 Apr 2019 21:13, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby manjgu » 07 Apr 2019 21:10

Karan M... i am no fan of Coupta or carrying the can for him. 1) firstly we spend a much less % of our GDP on defense 2) we have to cater to 2 fronts as part of modernization 3) large amounts of our budget goes to the Navy which as such does not overtly affect the battle on land and air which is essentially all india pak duels have been. 4) so in a way we have not been able to build a very decisive edge over napakis. which I hope can be corrected over modi jis next term with lot of indigenous equipment .

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Arun.prabhu » 07 Apr 2019 21:12

Everyone loses materiel in combat. Thank god we did not lose the highly trained, aggressive pilot who went all in after a pilot a generation ahead in a combat zone where he and his wingman were outnumbered 2 to 1 at best and 4 to 1 or worse at worst.

Instead of praising the elan, the skill, the agression, and the courage of our pilots, you complain about how the wing commander lost his bird and that it isn’t a victory. Tel that to the dead PAF pilot, why don’t you? I’m sure he is happy you think he drew or won the engagement.

....xxx No need to get personalxxxxx......................
Edited KM

Sumair wrote:
SidSoma wrote:
Please remove this junk link of absolute nonsense. It has been fairly well established that shekhar Gupta is an unpad gawar when it comes to defence matters and has displayed all traits of Paid media (this video was put up just hours after the FP post). This has been well refuted by IAF and junk like this does not deserve place in BRF.

Broad sentiment : a term used to push lahori logic as gospel truth. and who are the "most ppl" you are talking about. Most ppl here (other than link pushers) detest the polluted perspectives being peddled here. This just shows that neither have you been reading the thoughts and analysis from previous pages nor have you done any research on this topic yourself.

Now this is a link worth watching and reflects broad sentiment https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jVzsgMUoI0

Admins please delete the post and at the very least warn the poster


No need to get personal my friend. There is nothing sacrilege in that video. You miss the broader point; is this 1:1 a victory for us?! The ostrich mentality is a paki specialty, we should not stoop to that level.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby fanne » 07 Apr 2019 21:26

Who is Gupta? (the one that then COAS VKSingh called as Coupta, the one name by Christian Michel has been called Dalala (rhymes with Malala), and whom former Navy Chief Admiral DK Joshi called Darling of foreign vendor). Please use the right name, There are few Guptas here in the forum, I got confused by that.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby YashG » 07 Apr 2019 21:28

Rakesh wrote:Karan, when you see this post ---> another one by Coupta for you to refute :) Talking nonsense as usual.

India should look beyond 27 Feb numbers & build a stronger defence against Pakistan



His rant is so pedestrian. Not a single seminal point. This is the kind of discussion with which he can prove anything he wishes to- from the pakis are better to why we should have better relationship with afghanistan or why we should lick the chinese!

We dont have great equipment - there are gaps. C'mon we know that since 1999. So what? Is it worse than Pakistan? He wouldnt know. (KM has written about why quoting MICA doesnt help his case)

We are trying to change that. One place where we have done much much better is building our own equipment - as this indigenous equipment comes online during the next decade - we will leave pakistan lightyears behind.

What ridiculous is that his rant is so generic that it relates very little to dogfight we had. But he still had that as his background. This is like talking about good diet and workout when you've headache.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby fanne » 07 Apr 2019 21:34

Boss, why did we not decisively won this battle (in my mind we did, did Balakot, and stopped a far superior TSPAF raid), because it is really not full blown war. If it were, perhaps we would have lost some 10-12 airframes of various kind, with all of PAF wiped by now (within a month). This war IAF is prepared for and practiced. This half war- half peace is something where only a very overwhelming force can win (USAF vs Libya, USAF vs Serbia; even Iraq needed in first round a full blown war, they did not do this half war half piece nonsense). The kind of edge we have is good for full blown war, it will start showing impact after a week or two (initially it will be equal with IAF score turning more lopsided against TSPAF as time progress). I think, we will get there, now that the lessons have been learned. there ARE 4-5 TSPAF bases against 2 of us in JK front (Srinagar and Awantipur). We need few more satellite ones...

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby yensoy » 07 Apr 2019 21:35

Rakesh wrote:Everyone please read the above article by retired IAF Pilot, Sameer Joshi. It is an awesome read.

Same article as above, but different link. Whichever one works, go for it and read it. Highly recommended.

‘THE SLIP BETWEEN THE CUP AND THE LIP’
https://medium.com/@sameerjoshi73/the-s ... 52f1bd7171


This article is the best so far. It has all the shreds of evidence that have been discussed on this forum, and a detailed account from IAF sources - as detailed as one could expect in the public domain. Must read. And as objective as possible.

fanne wrote:I think, we will get there, now that the lessons have been learned. there ARE 4-5 TSPAF bases against 2 of us in JK front (Srinagar and Awantipur). We need few more satellite ones...


Not much space in the valley to accommodate runways besides what we already have. Rest of J&K, Himachal too hilly; (Ladakh too high to be of practical use against Pak).
Last edited by yensoy on 07 Apr 2019 21:37, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 07 Apr 2019 21:36

Nirbhay with mass produced engine will change that also. If get our MIC act together in 10 tears we can fight a no contest war with Pakistan

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 07 Apr 2019 21:40

Rakesh wrote:Everyone please read the above article by retired IAF Pilot, Sameer Joshi. It is an awesome read.

Same article as above, but different link. Whichever one works, go for it and read it. Highly recommended.

‘THE SLIP BETWEEN THE CUP AND THE LIP’
https://medium.com/@sameerjoshi73/the-s ... 52f1bd7171

This article tries to project Hassan Siddiqui as the pilot is the F16 pilot who died, was this the reason soon after the attack PAf unleashed a puported conversation claiming they had killed 300-350 people on social media. Just to prove he was alive.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Singha » 07 Apr 2019 22:07

looking at google maps, both srinagar and avantipora have enough space to house 1 more squadron of fighters each.

in a2a loadout, Leh may also be viable for su30 to function as a deep base but too far off to respond quickly.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 07 Apr 2019 23:21

manjgu wrote:Karan M... i am no fan of Coupta or carrying the can for him. 1) firstly we spend a much less % of our GDP on defense


Which started with the Congress govt's of yore. He should mention this. However he does not. He makes the case we spend 5x more than Pakistan, and IAF is to blame, this is stupid/dishonest on his part. Further, even if this Govt was to spend much more, it has to be split between all 3 services.

2) we have to cater to 2 fronts as part of modernization


True, which is why the IAF has to purchase so many items

3) large amounts of our budget goes to the Navy which as such does not overtly affect the battle on land and air which is essentially all india pak duels have been.


Disagree here. If we go back and look at the budgetary spends. Its the amount spent on the IA which is the largest, of which max is on revenue (i.e. salaries and eqpt maintenance and training) thanks to OROP. The IAF ends up having capex of ~50% and Navy around ~60%+ which indicates their men to eqpt ratio being somewhat ok.

Also money spent on Navy can literally choke supplies to Pak and force them to surrender - the effect is far more disproportionate than our arty duels on the LOC for instance.

4) so in a way we have not been able to build a very decisive edge over napakis. which I hope can be corrected over modi jis next term with lot of indigenous equipment .


Sorry, here I completely disagree - we already have a decisive edge, but this edge requires all out war. Consider, if IAF was striking across IB, IN was threatening Karachi, would PAF have been able to set up a 24 a/c strike package?
No, the quasi war set up that was there on the 27th, favored the Pakis totally. India wishing to not provoke a full scale war on the eve of elections, and the Pakistanis could do as they wished.

If there was a full scale war today, the key are the PAFs Erieyes and ZDK-03s. We have ~460 BVR armed fighters vs PAFs ~185 (assuming JF-17 is BVR armed). If we take out those lynchpins of their strategy, their defense will be severely hampered.

I put up those radar numbers earlier. India has gone for SIGINT + radars + AWACS + IACCS. PAF has mostly focused on AWACS + limited radar numbers from PRC + their version of IACCS. While ostensibly more flexible, their reliance on AWACS makes them a vulnerable point for the AF to exploit, which would be done in all out war. We have tools in place for their radar sites too. The PAF simply doesn't invest to our level, lacking local options. For instance:https://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/English/IITM/28______GBMES_(Project_HIMRAJ)_(1).pdf

Many other such gaps on the Pak side which we have covered but they, due to budgetary issues, haven't or have lesser quality of gear to compensate for. Just take a look at the true F&F SPICE backed up buy long range Herons/SATs/RTP on Su-30/ Bombardier SAR as versus the PAF inventory.. they don't have an equivalent. We are buying Thales/Elta and compare our local gear to the same specs. They are more and more buying Chinese. And at least 3 accounts (AM Subramaniam, Sqdr Ldr Joshi, AM Sinha agree on the gist that the Chinese equipped JF-17s were no match for the upgraded Mirage 2000I's) which clearly indicates that this gear is not all that its cracked out to be.

Also, our dysfunctional system was clearly played during the UPA era. Point i am making is for "no reason" its files on offensive eqpt and spares for its fighters remained stuck during the UPA era. What other excuse is there for no movement on MMRCA, Arty, and other items which would have given us an even more decisive edge? At least the IAF recast its strategy and went for upgrades to compensate. And Gupta says this was wrong!

And now, even those gaps re: spares etc are being fixed and the UPA era mindset of "spending on military is wasteful" which is clearly still the case at MOF, will gradually get recast as Modi now has made it a policy to hit back at Pak., and that has its costs.

Indigenous eqpt is critical, because apart from secrecy of systems etc they bring in cost effectiveness. We can afford (say) a thousand rounds of a critical PGM, when we go back to buy another set, our flawed and stupid process forces us to again go through a RFI/RFP etc because by now its next gen and we have to treat it as a separate deal. In contrast, with domestic products, we can literally avoid the whole corruption angle via the DRDO owning product improvement releasing it to 2-3 mfrs one of whom is a PSU and the IAF can afford far more, and furthermore, the product keeps getting improved.

One good example is the DRDO's 3D CAR i.e. LLTR (Rohini) for AF. We got 37 for the IAF, and now an AESA version cleared trials and there are 18 on order. No reason to run back to Thales for more GS-100s. Similar examples exist across the entire spectrum, and fire control radars, compact EW (on aircraft) and precision munitions are the last frontiers for DRDO. Once they crack that, the AF's ability to constantly upgrade its fleets will step forward by a huge amount.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 07 Apr 2019 23:28

Exactly, no concern for peacetime ROEs, you can strike the bases from which those 24 aircraft appear even as they start taking off, do all sorts of things which you couldn't have at peacetime!!

fanne wrote:Boss, why did we not decisively won this battle (in my mind we did, did Balakot, and stopped a far superior TSPAF raid), because it is really not full blown war. If it were, perhaps we would have lost some 10-12 airframes of various kind, with all of PAF wiped by now (within a month). This war IAF is prepared for and practiced. This half war- half peace is something where only a very overwhelming force can win (USAF vs Libya, USAF vs Serbia; even Iraq needed in first round a full blown war, they did not do this half war half piece nonsense). The kind of edge we have is good for full blown war, it will start showing impact after a week or two (initially it will be equal with IAF score turning more lopsided against TSPAF as time progress). I think, we will get there, now that the lessons have been learned. there ARE 4-5 TSPAF bases against 2 of us in JK front (Srinagar and Awantipur). We need few more satellite ones...

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby SidSoma » 07 Apr 2019 23:39

Sumair wrote:No need to get personal my friend. There is nothing sacrilege in that video. You miss the broader point; is this 1:1 a victory for us?! The ostrich mentality is a paki specialty, we should not stoop to that level.


KaranM has covered the technical aspects of the reply how ever there are other broader points that are missed out. Most of these have been dealt with in this thread. Let me put some of them here.

1. Considerable air time is used to establish the author of the article, the magazine and its Indian editor. He goes on to present, in the next part that if all these honarable ppl (who are of considerable repute) are right that what IAF is saying (he also induces doubt that F-16 may have been shot by ground fire, in spite of multiple official IAF statements). He again gives credibility to her and the publication. He says there are conspiracy theories around how this article may be wrong... and later states that all these theories are wrong.

2. The incident is called a Melee. We know for a fact that most of the airborne PAF did not take part in this. Esp their older Mirage 3 and 5s. What was left were their F-16s and a very few JF-17s. These were challenged by Su30s, Mirages and MiG 21s. As far as we know only 3-4 F-16s crossed the LoC and at least one of them was engaged in WVR with MiG-21. Now he goes on to say in a Melee its a free for all and any one can shoot down any one. This is an utter load of BS. Multiple exercises have praised MiG 21 tactics against western aircraft where in it won the engagements. We saw the same repeat here. With this is it safe to conclude that although the many defence experts including your self were shocked that IAF can suggest MiG 21 shooting down F-16, the IAF and some others were not even surprised. This is a result of better tactics, training and execution by IAF, not some fluke autolaunch missile shot out of an autopilot plane. Here he shows that he is an absolute duffer when it comes to air battles.

3. Next Moves on to IAF vs PAF and how we should have been so strong that PAF would not even launch against us. Well the same holds good for the IA vs PA and ISI vs RAW comparisions. How does Pakistan get the gall to practice 1000 cuts war against us. Because they are ok with self destruction. Do remember, what was PAFs goals. To bomb the military brigade HQ and this was not allowed. They were not allowed to get away scottfree either. Its not that IAF is not superior to PAF overwhelmingly. We are. We were able to cross PoK and strike Balakot. What did they do, drop bombs 3 kms from LoC. Their artillary shells go further for heavens sake. By the way,they had to scoot away before more of our resources were scrambled.

4. Why was punishment not meted out: How do you know that they are not being punished. Who said IAF has to punish PAF. IA is punishing PA and by the looks of things, they are crying. We are seeing all the effects. SMQ is holding press conf claiming impending Indian attack. He has pleaded US intervention. They are releasing prisoners. All this unilaterally. Only the blind will not read these signs as Pak being punished. Also wasteful actions like firing missiles generally in the direction of the foe was not done. Also we were not interested in full fledged air battle with PAF when it is not required. It should be part of a larger picture which was altered by the PAK release of Abhi.

5. He talks about outranged by AIM 120C: There are very few misiles that outrange AIM120C significantly. There are very few options and when one such presented it self we have taken it. We have gone in for the Meteor and we have already closed that gap. Other than this we have developed the Astra. We are not outranged by 120s, we have similar range weapons. With Raffy we will outrange it. 8 years was to induct the raffy. Mica is not longer ranged than Aim 120C.

6. Do we need more of every thing: Yes because we are not interested in only preparing for Pak. China is a bigger concern and for them, more of every thing is required.

7. India realised that it has fewer AWACS/AEW aircraft than pakistan: Blatant LIE. every word of that statement is a lie. India has more such platforms than Paki. All india assets are better than Paki assets and we are not handicapped. Yes more of every thing is better, and we need more AWACS. Karan has elaborated on this point very well. .

He goes on to peddle more of his junk, which are inconsequential. Lets call spade a spade Gupta is absolute nonsense when it comes to defence. He does not understand head or tail of all this, just spews lies, half truths and nonsense.

My point to you is very clear. Most members of this forum who have been following this thread know all of this. If you peddle his junk it is clear you have not read this thread, are Not interested in reading it and are only here to peddle his junk. This kind of malicious propaganda is not welcome anywhere.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Singha » 07 Apr 2019 23:51

Raj47 has found a extra f16 two seater from jordan deal

https://theprint.in/defence/this-is-pro ... ct/217732/

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Singha » 07 Apr 2019 23:52

This is like the never ending kaal bhairav rahasya series on hotstar

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Prem Kumar » 08 Apr 2019 00:02

Rakesh wrote:‘THE SLIP BETWEEN THE CUP AND THE LIP’
https://medium.com/@sameerjoshi73/the-s ... 52f1bd7171


All: since Sameer Joshi writes in Medium, lets ensure that we only share the Medium link here, on Twitter/FB etc. Lets not give more clicks to that same article in ThePrint, which is run by that sewer rat Shekhar Gupta.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby dinesh_kimar » 08 Apr 2019 00:19

YashG wrote:
Is it worse than Pakistan?


IMHO, Pakistani kit has traditionally been better than ours. This has even been expressed by our senior officers / Service chiefs during 1965 and other conflicts.

First submarine, Patton tanks, F-16 fighters, weapons locating radar, etc. are few examples.

The reason is they receive ample ashirwaad from their Unkil, while our Chacha........sorry, OT !!

Your point on indigenisation is valid. Even somewhat inferior kit can be decisive in battle, if functionally ok. (eg. Russia).

From Kunal Verma's book on 1962 conflict, our WW-II era kit was not a glaring or hugely significant factor against China.

Mountain logistics, and communication were more important. Biggest failure was apparently poor leadership at top.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 08 Apr 2019 00:25

Dinesh such generalizations are meaningless without getting into details

IMHO, Pakistani kit has traditionally been better than ours. This has even been expressed by our senior officers / Service chiefs during 1965 and other conflicts.

How is the Pakistani F-16 in any which way superior to our upgraded Mirage 2000s for instance, or our MiG-29s or Su-30 MKIs? Look at the overall platform and its capabilities.

You are just repeating generalities without looking at present day details, which does a great disservice to all those who went to great lengths to reverse the trend of Pakistan having any sort of advantage over us.

Even your generalities are mistaken. Patton tanks were outfought by our Centurions. Of what use was their so called sophistication when it didn't work optimally?

Today, kindly look at any IA SATA unit and point out what the Pakistanis have which is equivalent? Or take a look at the diversity of IAF munitions and see what the Pakistanis field which is equivalent across the board?

You imply the US is the singular source of Pakistani modernization. Sorry, but that's mistaken as well. Its China which is the primary source of their technology now. The US sourced equipment is but a fraction and rapidly aging. How long ago were those AMRAAMs and TOW-2As purchased and what are their US made replacements in the PAF?

Please don't repeat Pakistani propaganda meaninglessly by quoting some random events from long ago. Much has been posted and catalogued on this forum to reverse such stereotypes which you end up perpetuating for want of better research.

At least research, and then post.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Anujan » 08 Apr 2019 00:57

Singha wrote:many pakis seem themselves unaware of that fact that seeker heads survive the AAM explosion intact.

when provided the pics of their own army collecting the intact seeker of the AIM9L near lahore from parakram days, they start fighting saying the khaki dress is no more used. yeah sure PA has the cool khan certified digital camo now, but physics and AAM design layout has not changed in 20 years

I think the ISPR PA came up with the plan to showcase all the 4 missiles under the look Abhi did not fire any missile wiley coyote plan.

as usual they did not consult the PAF , any of whose technical people or pilots could have told them the above.

and then the photos leaked , once leaked there is no going back - so now they go around like a street seller trying to sell those 4 missiles and everyone laughs and points to the above :D


This is a common misconception. For missiles where the warhead separates like ballistic missiles, the red shiny tip is the bum. For missiles where warheads do not separate, like AAM, SAM and even anti tank missiles and cruise missiles, the bum is in the tube. Not the shiny tip.

Not sure how many tftas know this.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby fanne » 08 Apr 2019 01:03

Since 1990 (Pressler and Indian economy taking off), we have started fielding better weapons, some firsts (ASAT is good example). We had such an edge in 1998 that TSPAF chose not to show up in Kargil.
yes US can transfer F-22 any day to TSPAF and it can regain its edge, but since 1990s (equipment wise) we are doing very good. Our doctrine/training was always good (Gnat killing Sabers, Centurion killing Pattons). If not for UPA, we could have had some 2-3 SQ of Rafale in service as of now (thus continuous dominance).
With another illegal father of TSPAF, the Chinese making newer planes, TSPAF can suddenly find a better one. I guess we have few years window, we have to have AMCA, better than their J-3XX so that the advantage is always with us. LCA/MWF needs to be handed to 'B' team and A team moves to stealth planes.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Sumair » 08 Apr 2019 01:28

Like most people on the forum, I too do not have very high regards for Mr. Shekhar Gupta, but even a broken clock is right twice a day. So let’s remove the messenger from the message for a second and look at the essence of the message; whether we downed their one plane or not is irrelevant. Considering our resources we should have an overwhelming advantage in these “skirmishes”. It is no revelation that the probability of these kind skirmishes is a lot higher than a full blown war in our scenario, yet we have not adequately prepared for these skirmishes for whatever reasons. There is absolutely no excuse for our first contact soldiers to have similar qualitative weaponry (or in some cases even inferior) to our economically weaker enemy.
So until our decision makers understand this aspect of war and achieve an overwhelming advantage at the first point of contact or be prepared escalate to a far wider spectrum, we are doomed to these sorts of claims and counter claims.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 08 Apr 2019 01:32

The AMCA is a generational shift. To jump from Mirage 2000 to 5th Generation or from Tornado to Tempest, is what even the Europeans wouldn't try. For us too, the right way is LCA - MWF - AMCA.
And with state of the art sensors, MWF can be a very potent aircraft.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby negi » 08 Apr 2019 01:33

Sumair wrote:So until our decision makers understand this aspect of war and achieve an overwhelming advantage at the first point of contact or be prepared escalate to a far wider spectrum, we are doomed to these sorts of claims and counter claims.

This is a valid point issue is hum se na ho paega , everyone knows it , so inability to do so has to be dressed up as some sort of prudent thing to do .

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby syam » 08 Apr 2019 01:35

This messenger message thing is western construct. What our ancestors say is - Don't respect the message if the messenger himself is not up to the standard.


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