MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Apr 2019 19:53

problem is if the american gear they have did not do well, how will china bazaar EW gear fare?

mmasand · Post by **mmasand** » 08 Apr 2019 19:54

Karan M wrote:
mmasand wrote:^ I didn't know Chinese baby monitors (not radios) with AA batteries were so sophisticated.
What do you mean?

My response to PAF's predicted claims of EW and spoofing our AWACS.

nam · Post by **nam** » 08 Apr 2019 19:55

PAF is able to spoof Phalcons

,

which AESA based jammers does PAF have to spoof a frequency hopping AESA on the Phalcon?

A simple fact people forget, our kill claim is WVR. F16 seen by WC Abhi and shot down. Pak claim is BVR hit on Su30.

Now is PAF sure, we did not spoof the F16 radar with "Su-30" at 40-50KM

negi · Post by **negi** » 08 Apr 2019 19:57

Phalcon was not even near the engagement area , the most powerful airborne radar in that entire region at that time was the Phalcon , I think we need not discuss idiotic claims.

abhijitm · Post by **abhijitm** » 08 Apr 2019 20:03

syam wrote:These images are overkill for pakis. Target must be someone else. One question I want to ask - what the hell going on?

my thoughts exactly. Must be for US.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 08 Apr 2019 20:04

May your goats eat Reuters report. Thx.
So after all that, they did **NOT** say why the MiG went down, "1 to 1.5 MINUTES" after the F-16 went down.

That can't be any mijjile. Debris caused progressive failure of the MiG systems making it unflyable. What I don't see is why the IA positions did not observe THREE parachutes. Did the brave WCDRPAF (pbuh) jump well ahead?

sudhan · Post by **sudhan** » 08 Apr 2019 20:16

Karan M wrote:1st Pic from LDev is of the battlespace again Phalcon or IACCS.
Pic above in my post, 2nd Pic from LDev is of the F-16 track vanish etc, i.e. live Phalcon image of targets.
Another pic of Battlespace:

Query: Are the two triangles on the lower part of the 'engagement area' our bisons? Or are they all Paki planes?

Also, no Mirages seen in the radar, and only 2 bandars and the rest F16s during the time of the engagement.. As per the initial reports there were 24 aircrafts that were part of the incursion.. looks like they buggered the hell out of the engagement area once the IAF started putting planes in the air..

saip · Post by **saip** » 08 Apr 2019 20:32

Those Phalcon jammers must be based on Jinn technology only available to pious Muslim country like Pakistan who believe in Water cars. I never heard of jammers which accurately display false tracks. And when Indian ground controllers vectored Bisons believing these 'false tracks' Abhinandan found Paki F16s ('visual and locked' could only mean one thing).

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Apr 2019 20:38

Mirage3/5 has no AAMs in PAF service, so they would logically leave.

SidSoma · Post by **SidSoma** » 08 Apr 2019 20:45

https://twitter.com/joe_sameer/status/1 ... 0188593155

This picture does not seem very far off, and reconciles well with what IAF showed today. The IAF air situation picture shows 2 JF17s and 8 F16s.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 08 Apr 2019 21:27

It really cobfirms also that the PAF is really dependent on the F16's if the F16 bases get taken out. Then the rest of the PAF bases can be more easily removed in counter air operations. Tge PAF can be publically put a brave face but I doubt they can twart large IAF strike packages with fightet cover but similarly thier strikes can stopped by IAF

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 08 Apr 2019 21:36

Karan M wrote:Austin, they carry AIDEWS
https://www.harris.com/sites/default/fi ... asheet.pdf
https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/51 ... 16s-02396/

As mentioned before, its nothing but a X band and above self protection jammer.

Clearly didn't work against the Su-30s (as also evidenced by how they ran) or the Mirage 2000s.

The 2nd link shows the list of stuff PAF got with F-16 and it look scarry.

The saving grace seems to be all these jammers listed are not DRFM based

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Apr 2019 21:50

So the goodies included 700 blu 2000lb bunker busters to target iaf bases. Nice

2100 pgm kits and similar number of ccip bombs

sahay · Post by **sahay** » 08 Apr 2019 21:52

Austin wrote:The saving grace seems to be all these jammers listed are not DRFM based

AIDEWS is DRFM-based according to this datasheet.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Apr 2019 22:01

Must be a removable module or sw

36 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suites: ALQ-211 AIDEW without Digital Radio Frequency Memory (picked); or AN/ALQ-184 Electronic Counter Measures pod without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-131 Electronic Counter Measures pod without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-187 Advanced Self-Protection Integrated Suites without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-178 Self-Protection Electronic Warfare Suites without DRFM.

VikramA · Post by **VikramA** » 08 Apr 2019 22:23

Taken from twitter ---> Gnome Chomsky Retweeted Vipin Narang.

https://twitter.com/troilous/status/1114943886776909825 ---> There will be consequences for India for relentless trollish denigration of American NatSec observers who are largely apolitical and held favourable views on India.

I have difficulty understanding whether all so called US based 'analysts' are so arrogant or just plain delusional. I mean these people just work for a think tank and are not part of the US gov so where do they presume to get this arrogance .who the hell do these people think are?

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 08 Apr 2019 22:37

Vipin Narang is a class A troll and has been throughout this episode. There is no reason to to even read what he says, since none of it is likely to have any factual basis.

And he's not alone in making these ridiculous statements. If you remember, immediately after the ASAT test there were some who immediately tweeted that the "international community" would ask hard questions and there would be consequences for India. Nothing happened. They're all a bunch of gasbags.

Bishwa · Post by **Bishwa** » 08 Apr 2019 22:41

The Baba from Horran says the 2nd parachute went in the direction of Gola.. this is 1.5 south of Subz Kot.. Seems to support the IAF statement

Watch: A Kashmiri civilian narrates how he ‘caught’ Indian pilot Abhinandan
https://www.samaa.tv/video/2019/02/watc ... bhinandan/

negi · Post by **negi** » 08 Apr 2019 22:42

Huh the elephant has just lifted it's leg and termites already feel it , this Vipin Narang is yet another MUTU trying hard to show his allegiance to sitara e kaleen.

Zynda · Post by **Zynda** » 08 Apr 2019 23:12

Boy! That lady Lara who ever is really proving the idiot that she is! One of her tweets from today

Mike Yeo:

The R-73 missile on the right of this image is hardly “intact”. Still a lot of information gaps from both sides to draw firm conclusions about several claims/counterclaims

Lara Seligman
But if it had detonated and hit, wouldn’t it have been totally destroyed?

Is she really a credible defense journalist whom should be taken seriously? She is definitely helping herself to prove that she is a Paki/ISI sponsored pick that was propped up to further their agenda. I do hope she realizes that she is hurting her career further...unless she has guarantees that FP or other similar publications will scratch her back for quite some time or largess from ISI/Pak will get her through.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 08 Apr 2019 23:16

The amazing burnol

Read this piece for humour and jokes!

US officials shoot down Indian claims of F-16 kill
https://www.asiatimes.com/2019/04/artic ... f-16-kill/

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 08 Apr 2019 23:24

Nam, Ravi Rikhye tweets article on BVR ineffectiveness.

https://defenseissues.net/2013/04/27/us ... ssion=true

MeshaVishwas · Post by **MeshaVishwas** » 08 Apr 2019 23:26

For the Dhoti shiverers lurking:

https://twitter.com/Chopsyturvey/status ... 0876260352 ---> What ever you may say. One thing is very clear that on both days all action was on Pakistani soil. "No Guts No Risk No Glory".

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 08 Apr 2019 23:27

VikramA wrote:Taken from twitter ---> Gnome Chomsky Retweeted Vipin Narang.

https://twitter.com/troilous/status/1114943886776909825 ---> There will be consequences for India for relentless trollish denigration of American NatSec observers who are largely apolitical and held favourable views on India.

I have difficulty understanding whether all so called US based 'analysts' are so arrogant or just plain delusional. I mean these people just work for a think tank and are not part of the US gov so where do they presume to get this arrogance .who the hell do these people think are?

The Narang & Clary team is a couple of horse rear ends. These guys are not analysts, they are Pol Sci professors desperately fishing for grants that are so much easier to come by if you are doing any of the hard sciences. As far as I can tell, Narang does not have tenure, which explains his rather 'reaching' conduct on twitter. These people have seen how Ms Fair was able to leverage twitter notoriety into something more. The hope is that someone will hire these chaps for a consultancy, or that their opining on twitter will result in more frequent media appearances as experts, which will then lead to better things from a think tank with one political inclination or the other.

The right way to deal with them is to ignore them, or point out the relative lack of expertise for them to opine on tactical matters. If an Indian sniper armed with a dragunov shot a Paki sniper with a barret 50 cal, would we be talking about the relative merits of one weapon over the other? Or how the 'Indian claims stretch credulity'.. Its laughable how these so called 'experts', with a negative understanding of air wars, or tactics, (negative as in, whichever discussion they insert themselves into, they dumb down) are thrusting themselves into a conflict on foreign shores, and jiggling their hips for research grants. At least, Fair madam had more sense in how she used first the Pakis and now the Indian circuit..

The way these people are going, koi ghaas nahi dalega inko.

*Indians tend to put professors on pedestals. In reality, the pressures of research and getting 'funding' is so bad, that many western professors are not any better shady entrepreneurs pushing fake science. This problem is even worse on the soft academic side where money is really hard to come by. Sad, but true.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 08 Apr 2019 23:31

VikramA wrote:Taken from twitter ---> Gnome Chomsky Retweeted Vipin Narang.

https://twitter.com/troilous/status/1114943886776909825 ---> There will be consequences for India for relentless trollish denigration of American NatSec observers who are largely apolitical and held favourable views on India.

I have difficulty understanding whether all so called US based 'analysts' are so arrogant or just plain delusional. I mean these people just work for a think tank and are not part of the US gov so where do they presume to get this arrogance .who the hell do these people think are?

Dellusional folks these US based analysts.......All they do is quote unverified unnamed US Intel sources or Sr Intel Sources and say things that would make them sound credible in the eyes of those who feed them.

All these people here are echos of their own fake greatness

VikramA · Post by **VikramA** » 08 Apr 2019 23:36

Narang, Ankit Panda and Christine Fair are all doubling down to protect this Lara Seligman. They seem to have taken the IAF briefing as an personal insult and specially an attack on the credibility of this Lara journalist. They seem to have come to believe that an attack on credibility of one of them is an attack on the credibility of all of them.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 08 Apr 2019 23:39

Why are we giving so much importance to the twitterings of fools?

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 08 Apr 2019 23:40

ramana wrote:Nam, Ravi Rikhye tweets article on BVR ineffectiveness.

https://defenseissues.net/2013/04/27/us ... ssion=true

I feel Ravi is both right and wrong.. If the F16 BVR launches had been against targets not equipped with spjs, rwrs, or backed with an AWACs, the outcome could have been very different. Even he himself admits, that passive bvrs could have made things tricky. Finally, if the BVRs had AESA seekers, dual impulse motors or ramjet propulsion, the outcome would have again been more tricky to calculate. The battle between the sword and the shield will always go on with one gaining ascendance over the other for some windows of opportunity. No advantage will be permanent.

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 08 Apr 2019 23:43

VikramA wrote:Narang, Ankit Panda and Christine Fair are all doubling down to protect this Lara Seligman. They seem to have taken the IAF briefing as an personal insult and specially an attack on the credibility of this Lara journalist. They seem to have come to believe that an attack on credibility of one of them is an attack on the credibility of all of them.

Your surmise is right. Due to many factors, press types believe its them against the whole world and cant tolerate the barest of criticism or a contrary opinion. Its unfortunate.. In any case, the US DOD lied about the number of F4s shot down over hanoi, and continues to lie till this day. So whats new? Lying about an engagement in far away 'South Asia' is even easier, especially when there are perhaps 10 billion dollars worth of F16 sales to worry about.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 08 Apr 2019 23:56

The GOI should declare Panda, Narang and Fair persona non grata and endure they are locked out of any GOI relationship. After all, if they are behaving like Pakistani propagandists, they should be treated as such.

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 08 Apr 2019 23:59

Karan M wrote:The GOI should declare Panda, Narang and Fair persona non grata and endure they are locked out of any GOI relationship. After all, if they are behaving like Pakistani propagandists, they should be treated as such.

They are kind of venal.. If the pain they inflict goes beyond a certain point, we should think of providing them gainful employment. So far, they have only 'nuisance value'. One Ashley Tellis is worth more than their entire lot put together.

I can think of many media commentators who initially supported the new Govt. of India, but were not rewarded in any way, shape or form, and are now attacking GoI at every opportunity. **IF their fulminations have an impact** Would it have killed us to offer them some sinecure in, say, VIF, or some other Indian think tank.

Paisa Phenk.. Tamasha Dekh. You would be surprised at the low amounts needed.. But the proviso is, **IF their content has any impact**. The GoI seems to think they have some nuisance value at best.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 09 Apr 2019 00:02

here's the video of the briefing, enjoy !

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 09 Apr 2019 00:03

Why not just ignore them? GoI action against them will give them more fame. They will love it, especially since criticizing current Indian govt. will immediately wax your star on the international circuit.

Tbh, I hadn't even heard of Vipin Narang till his utterances got retweeted and talked about after this episode. One look at his profile however convinced me that he is yet another humanitites background hot-air generator trying to sound knowledgeable about things he does not have the intellectual capacity to understand.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 09 Apr 2019 00:13

Yeah, fair points I think it's all about the "what do I get" for guys like Panda, Narang etc. Get rewarded with some bone for being a loyal puppy. Wulff, wuff, no F16s, didnt you hear what my Massa said? Wuff, wuff. Either ways both idjits locked themselves out of any relationship with the Indian establishment which is only going to get more and more powerful.

Fair, we should congratulate her for spending tons of effort to become somewhat known in the Indian firmament and then relegating herself to crazy bin Jim category via her intemperate antics.

mmasand · Post by **mmasand** » 09 Apr 2019 00:13

VikramA wrote:Narang, Ankit Panda and Christine Fair are all doubling down to protect this Lara Seligman. They seem to have taken the IAF briefing as an personal insult and specially an attack on the credibility of this Lara journalist. They seem to have come to believe that an attack on credibility of one of them is an attack on the credibility of all of them.

Saikat Datta is quick to leverage his story on the basis of unnamed Pak military spokespersons re: the NLI and a battalion both capturing the same pilot (Wing Co AV) against official statements of the IAF. He discounts initial ISPR statements as fog of war, and lays IAF claims at counter-propaganda. As a journo, I expect you not to take sides and let your patriotism get the better of you, but that means you should be neutral. The title of his article leans more so with the enemy.

Can I then claim that WingCo's MiG wasn't shot down and that a white dove was ingested in the engine, or it was a mere engine failure. Fair and Narang are academics, they are wired to use deductive reasoning to prove/disprove a hypothesis. If anything, we are naive to have an appetite for their thoughts, I say this as an academic myself.

ISPR has, and always use propaganda for domestic consumption. Long after Dacca was liberated, PA fed Media in Pak was reporting the war is still ongoing and that India was postulating for a ceasefire. Here is a small clip - https://twitter.com/moneyman17/status/1 ... 0310724614

Bart S · Post by **Bart S** » 09 Apr 2019 00:18

mmasand wrote:
Saikat Datta is quick to leverage his story on the basis of unnamed Pak military spokespersons re: the NLI and a battalion both capturing the same pilot (Wing Co AV) against official statements of the IAF. He discounts initial ISPR statements as fog of war, and lays IAF claims at counter-propaganda. As a journo, I expect you not to take sides and let your patriotism get the better of you, but that means you should be neutral. The title of his article leans more so with the enemy.

He worked for Coupta at the Indian Express
Later worked for Scroll.in
Now works for the Chinese at Asia Times

In between worked for HT and DNA in between for good measure.

All the red flags are right there and staring at you.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 09 Apr 2019 00:18

Saikat Datta loathes the current Govt thanks to his left wing politics. Unfortunate reality of many of our journos.

Bart S · Post by **Bart S** » 09 Apr 2019 00:19

Singha wrote:So the goodies included 700 blu 2000lb bunker busters to target iaf bases. Nice

2100 pgm kits and similar number of ccip bombs

Are these dumb bombs or can they also be mated to the JDAM and Paveway kits that they have? If the latter, they truly are extremely dangerous.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 09 Apr 2019 00:21

VikramA wrote:If I am reading these images properly the engagement did not happen near the loc but deep inside POK right near Mirpur and just a stone's throw away from paki border with pok

Wg Co. Abhinandan #AndarGhuskeMaara.

It was an IAF surgical strike.
Ab ki baar, Navy ki hain.

All along I was think the intercept was on Indian side of LOC.
Abhi went inside and shot/gored the F -16 Viper.

Saikatt Datta and his ilk will get their comeuppance for taking enemy side in a war.
So will many others.

BartS, These can be mated to JDAM and Paveway.
More likely the latter for better effectiveness.

I have worse thoughts but not after Balakot.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 09 Apr 2019 00:27

Bart S wrote:
Singha wrote:So the goodies included 700 blu 2000lb bunker busters to target iaf bases. Nice

2100 pgm kits and similar number of ccip bombs
Are these dumb bombs or can they also be mated to the JDAM and Paveway kits that they have? If the latter, they truly are extremely dangerous.

Not dumb.
This is the reason why I kept saying PAF would use their F16s to do LGB strikes into India on 27th Feb. This is their prized armoury.
But were held off from careful guidance by the Su30s.