MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 09 Apr 2019 00:51

Also AIDEWS will likely have DRFM despite initial US pronouncements that they wouldn't. Please see WikiLeaks excerpts in the Hindu. There were confidential discussions underway to provide that to Pak.
https://www.thehindu.com/news/the-india ... 059802.ece

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 09 Apr 2019 00:55

Re: Saikat Datta episode, I am amazed at how quickly Pakistan is able to peddle influence in India by offering journos in India looking for controversy and TRP, a "scoop".

Note, last time around when the Coast Guard took out a Pakistani ship, a magical Pakistani "co-journalist" was surely "not" handpicked by the Pak powers that be, to work with Praveen Swami who peddled the "grandmother crossed the LOC" storyline.

This time its Datta. Truly some Indians will do anything and everything for their own benefit, the truth or national interests be damned. GOI should have aggressively gone after fake news and cross-border influence peddling.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby sudeepj » 09 Apr 2019 01:11

Karan M wrote:Re: Saikat Datta episode, I am amazed at how quickly Pakistan is able to peddle influence in India by offering journos in India looking for controversy and TRP, a "scoop".

Note, last time around when the Coast Guard took out a Pakistani ship, a magical Pakistani "co-journalist" was surely "not" handpicked by the Pak powers that be, to work with Praveen Swami who peddled the "grandmother crossed the LOC" storyline.

This time its Datta. Truly some Indians will do anything and everything for their own benefit, the truth or national interests be damned. GOI should have aggressively gone after fake news and cross-border influence peddling.


You have to understand the nature of the beast.. I think, finally we are beginning to understand it after the latest kerfuffle and we have had the Indian Armed Forces start an information warfare wing. 24 x 7 News cycle, with everyone and their grandma having a distribution channel, demands constant content. If you do not provide the content, but an enemy does, guess which content is going to be broadcasted. Nationalism etc. doesnt come into it from the reporters and the editors perspective, from their pov, they are just doing their job.

A daily press conference, selective leaks etc. would have gone far in furthering the Indian narrative. As I said before, the human mind is excellent in ignoring new facts in favor of preserving an existing narrative, where narrative is roughly translated as a series of facts strung together in an easily understandable story. Its even better if the story appeals to some pre-existing bias or thought process. Once the narrative is accepted by an avg person, you have to move heaven and earth to change it.

And now.. having defended the press, I need to take a shower. :-D

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 09 Apr 2019 01:18

I don't think its just that Sudeep, been watching the local channels and they make do with existing content. They don't need something salacious which the Pakistanis said to counter the Indian narrative. It is because deep down they know they and their audience stand on the Indian side.

Its that there are many folks who intrinsically loathe everything this current Govt stands for. They could stand the center left INC because it pandered to their ideology at some level, but the existence of a "nationalist right of center BJP Govt" is completely unacceptable to these people.

Anyhow the existence of a strong Right of Center establishment, negates everything they have believed since childhood and also, their access to sources of power is cut off now. Reading the social media accounts of these "journalists" reveals this mindset openly. A retweet compares security restrictions to when a convoy passes in J&K post Pulwama, that too, to Hitler and the jews.

The combination of the idealogy, plus the fact they have alienated current GOI folks with their extremist reportage, means that these guys they will do anything and everything to stay relevant. If that means collaborating with Pakistanis and carrying un-sourced lies from them as truth, so be it.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Rakesh » 09 Apr 2019 01:29

mmasand wrote:Saikat Datta is quick to leverage his story on the basis of unnamed Pak military spokespersons re: the NLI and a battalion both capturing the same pilot (Wing Co AV) against official statements of the IAF. He discounts initial ISPR statements as fog of war, and lays IAF claims at counter-propaganda. As a journo, I expect you not to take sides and let your patriotism get the better of you, but that means you should be neutral. The title of his article leans more so with the enemy.

Can I then claim that WingCo's MiG wasn't shot down and that a white dove :lol: was ingested in the engine, or it was a mere engine failure. Fair and Narang are academics, they are wired to use deductive reasoning to prove/disprove a hypothesis. If anything, we are naive to have an appetite for their thoughts, I say this as an academic myself.

ISPR has, and always use propaganda for domestic consumption. Long after Dacca was liberated, PA fed Media in Pak was reporting the war is still ongoing and that India was postulating for a ceasefire. Here is a small clip - https://twitter.com/moneyman17/status/1115281500310724614

Fantastic view point on the bolded part. Not only, do I fully agree...that is now going to be the narrative of Wing Commander Varthaman's MiG-21.

+108 to you Sir!!

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 09 Apr 2019 03:20

This piece by Saikat Datta completely takes Pakistani propaganda claims into account and supports the Pakistani position tacitly and even openly. It would be ok in a neutral article to present both sides of view.

What is interesting to note though, that in his article Datta does not even attempt to present the Indian point of view and quotes "anonymous" IAF sources who always, magically, contradict all other serving IAF officers or even veterans and end up supporting the official PAF claims and the DGISPRs agenda. The presence of anonymous sources to peddle incorrect claims speaks for itself.

This clearly shows the malign effect of influence peddling or open bias, take your pick.

Ironically, by seeking to quote Kaiser Tufail to discredit the Indian side's opinion, he accidentally ended up supporting the Indian claims even more so!! Read on to see more!

I will be going paragraph by paragraph and hence apologize in advance for the length of my reply.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No proof India shot down Pakistan F-16
https://www.asiatimes.com/2019/03/artic ... stan-f-16/

The clash between India and Pakistan involving their respective air forces last week has led to claims and
counter-claims from the two South Asian rivals. While India claimed its air force entered Pakistan air space in the early hours of February 26, Pakistan claimed a similar air attack on Indian positions a day later.


This is the first example of how Datta pretends that both establishments, a democracy i.e India, and an Islamist theocracy "owned" by the military with near complete control of a pliant press, i.e Pakistan, are equal.

He notes "India claimed" it entered Pakistan airspace on Feb26th, without even mentioning it struck a terror camp and then says Pakistan claimed it launched a similar attack on India, the next day.

So, first he puts both countries on an equal position re: "claims" ignoring the wealth of evidence that the Indian side did strike targets in Pakistan, but he also equates the Indian strike on terrorists as equal to a strike conducted by Pakistan on Indian Government and military installations.

However, one claim from India has taken a bizarre turn. In response to the Pakistan air raid in the morning on
February 27, Indian fighter jets gave chase as part of the air defense measures. While the Pakistan jets turned back in a matter of seconds, an Indian MiG-21 gave chase and crossed into Pakistan’s air space. It was brought down by Pakistan’s air defense surface-to-air missiles and the pilot was captured.


This second paragraph also supports the Pakistani position in a subtle manner implying that the Indian response was intemperate and ill-considered. Note, he states that the Pakistani jets turned back in a matter of seconds, whereas radar evidence submitted by the Indian side clearly shows that this was a multi-axis raid by almost all of the Pakistani AF's fighter types in service, and took, at the very least, intense maneuvering and combat from the Indian side to defeat the strike packages.

He then goes onto state that the MiG-21 was shot down by Pakistani SAMs.

Datta repeats the Pakistani line, without a shred of evidence, that a Pakistani SAM hit the MiG-21. He also doesn't explain how a MiG-21 located close to a PAF asset would be knocked down by a Pakistani SAM. Which Pakistani SAM would be able to carry out this feat? Especially since shoulder or pedestal launched Anza or RBS-70 missiles would be as likely to target the PAF fighter as the Indian one, especially in a close combat scenario. Where are its more complex SAM systems located and where is the evidence that even one of them was used?

Ergo, this is Datta's second example of taking a Pakistani propaganda or unsourced claim and passing it off as the truth. Especially since he doesn't even bother to mention the Indian side which was that an AMRAAM hit the MiG-21 fired from a F-16. There is no mention of this at all.

However, Indian Air Force (IAF) officials were quick to claim that before being shot down, Wing Commander
Abhinandan Varthaman managed to shoot down a Pakistani F-16. The IAF also put out a series of tweets claiming that an F-16 had been shot down.


Note the usage of the terms "quick to claim". The actual events of the day were that post the air combat in the morning, a press briefing held later in the day mentioned these events. It was measured and clearly the IAF took the time to analyze the events of the day.

Datta would have you believe that the IAF just made random claims quickly, and then relied on social media to push its case. In the current socio-political milieu, where a lot of mockery has been directed towards prominent US Govt officials using twitter to push their views, its not hard to decipher that Datta wanted to elicit a similar feeling of amused contempt in the reader towards the IAF's claims.

However, by March 1, rumors started flying that Abhinandan had shot down a Pakistan Air Force (PAF) pilot named Shahaz-ud-Din, who was from 19 Squadron, also known as the sher-dils, or lion-hearted. On March 2, FirstPost, a well-known Indian news website, published a story written by consulting editor Praveen Swami, claiming: “The news that Shahaz-ud-Din’s plane was shot down was first reported by London-based lawyer Khalid Umar, who says he received it privately, from individuals related to the F-16 pilot’s family.” Quoting Umar’s Facebook post, Swami also reported that the pilot had ejected “possibly in the Laam Valley” and had been mistaken for an Indian pilot by locals on the ground. They allegedly lynched him, and Swami wrote that “Shahaz-ud-Din, Umar has claimed, was hospitalized, but succumbed to his injuries.” Swami also claimed that both the downed pilots, Varthaman and Shahaz-d-Din, were sons of Air Marshals in the IAF and PAF. “Shahaz-ud-Din’s father, Waseem-ud-Din, is also an Air Marshal of the Pakistan Air Force, who has flown F-16 and Mirages,” he wrote. However, an investigation by Asia Times revealed that while Air Marshal Wasimuddin did serve in the PAF before retiring, he did not have a son named Shahaz-ud-Din. Non-existent pilot: Air Marshal Wasimuddin has two sons, Aleem Uddin and Waqar Uddin. Waqar is studying in Warwickshire in the United Kingdom, while Aleem, who has studied at Royal Holloway, the University of London, works in the telecom sector. “I have only two sons and neither of them has been a part of the PAF, nor has either ever flown a plane,” he said. “I have not considered any legal action [against the Indian media reports]. I actually laughed them off. My sons have been abroad for years. Unfortunately, they have been needlessly dragged into all this,” Wasimuddin said.


We have an interesting case here. Please note the narrative being built up. First, we have the IAF claim that Abhinandan of the IAF shot down a F-16. This is dismissed by not mentioning any of the evidence the IAF did deploy to support its claims which included:

* Radio, Radar evidence that showed F-16s were involved, and that PAF F-16 was indeed shot down
*Abhinandan's own testimony (if the authors above could have gone to the lengths to find a Pakistani pilot existent in
Pakistan and trace his family, how difficult would it have been to get details of the account of the Indian side?)

But thereafter, the story immediately shifts from the IAFs claims, to the claim made by a journalist, citing a Pakistani expat to show that these people's claims were unsourced, untrue and hence the whole story as such is false. This is an interesting narrative trick, but ignores the fact that in actual conflict, especially in a garrison state such as Pakistan, getting the real details of which Pakistani pilot was shot down would be next to impossible in the short term as an information clampdown would exist. Over time, information may leak out but is extremely improbable in the short term.

Note however, one more thing. The authors made no attempt to even corroborate the Indian claims by investigating whether there were any other Pakistani pilots shot down. They just chased after the one person claimed by one report, and called it quits.

Again, fits to an agenda which is to pretend that the shoot down never occurred.

Who provided this access? Has Datta himself physically verified the existence of Wasimuddin or is he merely repeating what Khuldune passed on to him and why is it not mentioned? There is not even a caveat here to mention this fact or how this information "came" to Dutta.

PAF officials confirmed that the retired air marshal had been asked to record a video as a rebuttal to claims in the India media. However, Wasimuddin said he wanted to avoid it because he did not want any undue attention on him or his family given the current crisis.


Please see above. This just ties into the fact that what the PAF/ISI wish to leak, they do.

This raises a set of bigger questions. If there is no “Wing Commander Shahaz-ud-Din” in the PAF, then who was piloting the F-16 that was allegedly shot down by the IAF? Or did the IAf really shoot down an F-16?
Air Commodore Kaiser Tufail is a former F-16 fighter pilot in the PAF and the author of Great Air Battles of Pakistan Air Force, a seminal book on its wartime history. He believes the Indian claim has no merit.

“It is relatively easy to provide incontrovertible evidence for such a kill by the IAF,” Tufail told Asia Times in
several text messages in response to queries. “The MiG-21 pilot should have been in touch with his fighter controller on the ground. Also, the other Indian fighter aircraft engaging the PAF fighter jets would have been monitoring the
situation. They would have the data that can prove if an F-16 was shot down. Why isn’t India releasing that data?”
“The trace of the ground and airborne radar scope is always recorded, and usually, all radars preserve this for up to 72 hours, before being overwritten,” he said. “These traces can easily provide the incoming aircraft. And the sudden
disappearance of the blip from the (radar) scope of this incoming aircraft will imply a ‘kill.’ There couldn’t be better
evidence than this.”

“The IAF can (also) provide audio recording(s) of the interception in which the (MiG-21) pilot must have transmitted to his flight controller. There would be ‘radar contact,’ ‘visual contact,’ target shot down.’ These recordings should be available with the ground radar as well as the airborne radar that was flying that day,” he added
.


First, please note that Kaiser Tufail, a retired Pakistani fighter pilot, notes that the radar data and R/T information is incontrovertible evidence. Not circumstantial but incontrovertible. Clearly, he understands that when aircraft are downed in enemy territory, picking up physical evidence is impossible. Hence the reliance on radar information.

These have now been provided by the Indian side.

The Indian side has reported multiple times of the R/T calls between Abhinandan and his controller indicating that he had a target and his R73E was locked.

More importantly, India has now provided radar information from its powerful Phalcon AWACS systems as well to the media and public alike.

As Tufail says:
The trace of the ground and airborne radar scope is always recorded, and usually, all radars preserve this for up to 72 hours, before being overwritten,” he said. “These traces can easily provide the incoming aircraft. And the sudden
disappearance of the blip from the (radar) scope of this incoming aircraft will imply a ‘kill.’ There couldn’t be better
evidence than this


Which is exactly what the Indian evidence shows.


Indians lost face?


The usage of the term "lost face" is important to note here. Most Indian's don't care for this term in private or public usage. However, this is very common in both the Pakistani establishment which keeps mentioning its "Honor and Dignity" in public statements and also Chinese reportage where "saving face" is a leit motif.

Again, who wrote this piece and who were its intended audience? And why is this air battle, an otherwise prosaic event in conflicts, being sought to be depicted as an amusing "humiliation" for the Indian side?

As we speak, many Pakistani soldiers have been killed over the past few years in vicious artillery and combat engagements over the Indo-Pak border.

The Indian Air Force has over 700 active combat aircraft.

Would the loss of a single MiG-21 due to be retired in a few years time cause the Indian establishment undue worry, especially when the pilot prevented a much larger and potentially catastrophic attack on military bases?

What would have caused India to lose face? A MiG-21 loss or a large and successful Pakistani strike. The conclusions are obvious.

Asia Times spoke to multiple IAF fighter pilots both serving and retired to ascertain their version of events. Most agreed with Air Commodore Tufail’s analysis of the sequence of events.
“It is true that the MiG-21 pilot would have had made some recordings of the air engagement, both audio and video,” a former IAF fighter pilot said on condition of anonymity. “Right from the 1970s, MiG-21s had cameras in the gun and missile pods. Any launch is recorded and if there are any ‘kills’ it should have been recorded. This should also be available in the on-board avionics. But the Pakistanis have it now,” he said.

“However, even a radio transmission, as well as data from the Airborne Early Warning (AEW) that had taken off when the first PAF fighters were detected, should have some data, including the loss of a radar blip, if the MiG-21 had shot it down. Even Wing Commander Abhinandan’s radio transmissions should be available and we can check them to see if he did report a ‘kill’ before going down,” the Indian fighter pilot said.


Which has been already provided by the IAF, so the above information is redundant.

One must also wonder why is it that the authors had to ask an anonymous IAF fighter pilot for information around gun camera evidence which should be commonly known to any defence correspondent.

As far back as 1999, when the IAF shot down a PAF Atlantique using its MiG-21, pictures of its gun camera were available to all media houses.

Some IAF officials privately feel the loss of the MiG-21 was a major “loss of face.” Even though Wing Commander Abhinandan “displayed high professional acumen and took on an F-16 in his MiG-21, the fact that we lost it was very embarrassing a day after we took out a Jaish-e-Mohammed (JeM) terror camp deep inside Pakistan,” another senior IAF official told Asia Times.


Again, note the usage of the term "loss of face" and also, the improbable claim that a senior IAF official would speak to a media house, off the record, and yet take the view that a MiG-21 was lost and not point out that a F-16 was shot down in turn.

In contrast, a quick survey of publicly available IAF veterans on social media, shows a fierce and undeniable feeling of pride that WingCo Abhinandan in an older generation MiG-21 got the better of the PAF's elite F-16.

Why would this "anonymous" IAF pilot feel different? Why would he ignore that Abhinandan acted to prevent a much more catastrophic mission success for the PAF?

A former IAF fighter pilot told Asia Times that unlike past analogous radars, the present Synthetic Display Radars (SDR) were incapable of distinguishing between aircraft. “The SDR would not be in a position to tell whether it was an F-16 or not. But the other data would have definitely recorded an F-16 ‘kill’ by the MiG-21.”


This is an absolute bizarre claim and clearly evidence that the authors wish to somehow pretend that the IAFs current equipment would be unable to distinguish the reality. Again, once again, using incorrect facts to claim support for a PAF view.

Clearly, the PAF appeared to have been concerned that India would release details on the F-16 event sooner or later and hence some deniability was sought to be brought in, via these "claims".

Given the IAF has upgraded to the latest technology, the intent of this claim seeks to deny the IAF the credit of knowing whether it indeed shot down a F-16 using technically dubious claims.

First, current Gen IAF radars have much better chances of detecting the presence of a F-16 and distinguishing between aircraft. Using sophisticated algorithms which measure a variety of attributes, even without Identification Friend and Foe, they can perform what are known as "Non Cooperative Target Recognition" i.e. NCTR techniques. These are present on a wide range of IAF fighter and surveillance systems as we speak. The radars being modern, with a variety of beam control measures and processing capabilities, are far more capable of doing these as well.

Second, being newer generation, large antenna array radars, they can shape and position precise pencil beams to identify between aircraft. Depending on the size of the radar (and IAF ground based radars and the Phalcon/Netra AWACS ones are very large), they can perform what is known as "Raid Assessment" to pick out individual targets in what would otherwise, in earlier generations be a blob on a Phosphor screen.

By zooming in on the specific targets, operators can even distinguish between targets closely located in space, and bearing and with the use of NCTR and IFF methods, figure out which is an own aircraft and which is hostile.

Again, theory apart, the IAF has already shown Phalcon radar data backing up both of the above. The Phalcon is a modern, state of the art, active antenna array radar which can distinguish between F-16s and Indian aircraft, even in the absence of the F-16s providing IFF information as it carries a host of additional sensors to back up the primary radar, such as ESM (Signals Intelligence) sensors which can even sniff the F-16 electronic emissions and categorize them.

Third, Synthetic Display radars unlike early generation Phosphor radars have the option to record their display and replay them for post event battle analysis.

This is what the IAF just did and shared.

What added to the confusion was Inter-Services Public Relations (ISPR) Director General Major General Asif Ghafoor’s press conference on Wednesday, where he mentioned that Pakistan had captured two Indian pilots. One was Wing Commander Varthaman and the other was taken to the Combined Military Hospital (CMH) after being severely injured. That claim came after Ghafoor’s initial tweet suggested there were actually three Indian pilots on the Pakistani side of the Line of Control. This was also reported by prime minister Imran Khan in his address to the National Assembly. Much later Ghafoor said only one pilot was in Pakistani custody.


Note how Datta messages this. This was merely confusion and Ghafoors tweet suggest there were actually 3 Indian pilots. There was no suggestion here. Ghafoor said this and so did Imran.

Also, there is no analysis here at all, of what this implied in terms of a real F-16 shoot down.

PAF officials told Asia Times they were planning a display of all their fighter jets for neutral observers as evidence that none of their aircraft had been taken down by the IAF.


Its amusing here to note how much time the Pakistani establishment has taken to do this. It has been over a month since the air attack, and yet, while the PAF has had time to fly around for Pakistani celebrations, it could not, even for a minute, pull together its fighters to provide this sort of evidence.

This huge delay, clearly suggests diplomatic efforts are being made to source F-16s to make up any missing numbers, the same manner in which the Pakistani establishment has undertaken in previous conflicts.

Furthermore, why a display alone?
Why not release the Serial Numbers and have the US publicly note it in public? This does not give away any classified capabilities as well.

According to a Pakistani official, on condition of anonymity, F-16s had indeed been used to strike targets inside Indian territory. “I don’t know why [Asif Ghafoor] said that. Perhaps it would’ve been better if an air force person was dealing with the briefing. Even if somebody had asked him [about the F-16s] during the presser it would’ve been best to say something open-ended and not something as categorical as what he said,” the official said.

Analysts think one of the reasons behind Ghafoor’s statement could be to address concerns by the American State Department over the use of US-made F-16 fighter jets.


It is beyond ridiculous to imply here as has been done, that Ghafoor would not know F-16s had been used and an AF official was required. This implies a level of incompetence at the DG ISPR level which would stretch credulity.

While Indian officials have showcased parts of an AMRAAM missile as evidence that Pakistan did use an American-made F-16, PAF officials say that part of the missile being discovered was ‘conclusive evidence’ that the Pakistan jets were not shot down.

“AMRAAM only goes with the F-16, but what the Indians don’t seem to realize is how the AMRAAM got there. There’s a reason why no debris of the jet has been recovered and only the remains of the missile have been found,” said Air Commodore Kaiser Tufail, a former PAF F-16 fighter pilot.


This has to be perhaps the most silly comment so far in the article written by Datta. One presumes this is journalistic mangling of what Tufail said. The AMRAAM shown by the IAF was of a missile fired at Su-30s at DMax1. It missed its target and flew on.

What happens to a missile which would have missed it maneuvering target and then flown on? Even its self destruct guidance if it existed would have worked only if it did not get misguided by IAF countermeasures and did not plow into the ground!

An Indian Airforce officer stated, “When a missile hits a jet it breaks down into small pieces just like the aircraft it targets – it doesn’t vaporize. If it doesn’t hit the target, its rocket fuel finishes in 20-25 seconds, and it just falls down on the ground intact. So the fact that an AMRAAM piece was recovered proves that the F-16 did strike a target.”


This claim again stretches credulity.
The author implies that the missiles always crash after they run out of fuel, run out of speed, crash and are recovered intact.

What if the missile missed a maneuvering Su-30, and flew into terrain whilst it was still having a decent amount of speed? Sameer Joshi's account of the F-16 vs Su-30 combat, clearly indicates the F-16s sought to maximize their missile range by flying higher than IAF Su-30s and firing downwards at them. What happens then to the missile which the Su-30 spoofs via countermeasures/maneuvers and the missile misses the Su-30 entirely?

In which case, we would sure love to see the magical alloy that allows a missile traveling at several Mach (crossing the speed of sound = Mach), to strike the ground and remain virtually intact. It is one thing when missiles ON an aircraft are recovered intact, post a crash, as the airframe (depending on circumstance) glides down or takes the brunt of the impact.

Its quite another when a weapon, flying at extremely high speeds, strikes mountainous terrain as in Kashmir and is supposed to be recovered intact.

The missile to have just fallen on the ground, would have had to fly a trajectory that was parallel to the ground (not from a height differential towards the IAF jets as several accounts indicate), magically phase through mountainous terrain that it may have encountered on its path downwards, as it rapidly lost height and finally, it had to glide down so that it would gently arrive on the ground unharmed.

Again, note what this "supposed" IAF officer is stated to have said, ignores multiple possibilities all of which are far more likely and common-sensical. "Supposed" because like several anonymous IAF officers quoted in this article, one has to wonder whether they actually exist or were used to randomly lend some credibility to otherwise heavily flawed claims!!

The fact that an AMRAAM piece was recovered, proves that the F-16 did "strike a target" (never mind, it could have well been the ground) ignores yet another possibility.

Furthermore, it has also been reported that AMRAAMs possess a self-destruct mode. If they can't lock onto a target (as when spoofed by the IAF's Su-30s) they self-destruct. This would scatter airframe fragments over a large area, explain how the IAF got wreckage, and would also make it very hard for the IAF to locate more wreckage. For instance, a Spanish EF accidentally fired an AMRAAM and it was noted:

A Spanish fighter jet pilot accidentally fired an air-to-air missile during drills close to the Russian border...
The projectile has a built-in self-destruct system designed for such accidents, but Nato believes it may have landed on the ground.


So, to not even look at the varied possibilities in which the IAF would have got pieces of AMRAAM wreckage, while implying it "struck something" (but not the ground, nor a self-destruct) just exposes Datta's flawed attempts to act as the Pakistani establishment mouthpiece again.

So why all this rigmarole from the author over just a bunch of AMRAAM fragments?

The reason is that PAF side has been desperate to prove that their AMRAAMs actually struck the IAF fighters in BVR after successive IAF accounts have emerged stating that the PAF pilots showed poor BVR tactics by firing at range, being unable to counter the Su-30s tactical maneuvers and countermeasures, and unable to defeat or suppress the Su-30s in BVR, had to ultimately exit.

As an IAF senior veteran acidly remarked, if the PAF F-16s had kept up this sort of behavior, they would soon be weapons empty and at the mercy of the IAF Su-30s which kept maneuvering out of the PAF's weapons engagement range and pressing home their sensors to get a firing solution.

So, this comment to pretend that the mere presence of an AMRAAM fragment proves that it "hit something" and hopefully, a confused reader would think that the AMRAAM downed an IAF fighter, which a democracy like India is "hiding".

Never mind that the IAF routinely publishes exhaustive lists of its attrition, and even Abhinandan's family had media camped outside their house within moments of the news getting out. This is yet another attempt to draw an equivalence between the Indian side and Pakistani side by inventing magical properties on behalf of the AMRAAM.

People can google up the wreckage of any fighter crash and see the amount of burnt wreckage and mangled pieces of metal that exist from fighters striking the ground, while flying at much slower speeds. Compare and contrast to what would happen to an AMRAAM which was not on a fighter, but directly impacted rocky terrain when it missed a maneuvering IAF fighter.

If anyone is seeking to save face here, it is the Pakistani side which is doing so with journalists like Datta who seem to be inventing theories galore.

Meanwhile, locals on the ground reiterated that no Pakistani pilot bailed out along with Wing Commander Varthaman. “Only the Indian pilot landed here, and while the locals initially did try to physically harm him, he was protected by Pakistan Army officials. There was no Pakistani pilot who parachuted along with him, let alone being killed by a mob,” Fiaz Mahmood, a local businessman in the Bhimber district of Pakistan-administered Kashmir, told Asia Times.


This is yet another humorous part in the article, intended to push the Pakistani military's propaganda line that "nothing ever happened". In contrast, there are multiple videos on YouTube which emerged before the Pakistani military could suppress it, of locals noting multiple parachutes in the air, and pilots captured.

Furthermore, we have Indian Army personnel observations from their posts as well as R/T intercepts of Pakistani Army troops discussing the capture of 2 pilots.

The episode has raised several questions about India’s deteriorating military capabilities due its faulty procurement policies and lack of political will. Last year India’s Vice-Chief of Army Staff told Parliament’s standing committee on defense that the Narendra Modi government’s financial squeeze had left the forces bereft of funds.


This is selective quotation at its worst.

The Army's Vice Chief spoke, not the Air Force's vice Chief. India's Air Force flies its Sukhois, MiGs, and Mirages which took part in the air combat, not its Army.

Next, the "Narendra Modi Govt" after it took power, has steadily focused on increasing expenditure related outcomes regarding its military spend, by ensuring existing funds are not surrendered back to the Finance Ministry and get spent and also, get spent better in acquiring equipment warfighters need and quickly.

This plus extensive political engagement with the military establishment ensured that the serviceability of Indian fighters rose, and new capabilities were procured including the replenishment of empty war wastage reserves.

The Govt has also sought to speed up procurement by delegating financial procurement capabilities to the Vice Chief of service staff level.

Ironically, this has led to significant orders of equipment and has also meant the existing defence budget gets used up much quicker, which is the context behind the VCAS's outburst. He was concerned that the existing budget would not suffice for the quantum of modernization his service had planned for, and which he now had the capability to execute on.

It is also interesting that Mr Modi's name was specifically mentioned, again a political slant benefiting the Pakistani establishment during election time in India.

Mr Datta's social media timeline is also full of rancid commentary regarding Mr Modi, his party and anyone associated with Mr Modi's party. The bias and dislike are palpable.

To summarize, this poorly researched article has all the hallmarks of being a propaganda piece for the Pakistani establishment.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Cain Marko » 09 Apr 2019 03:29

^ guy should be checked by the various agencies in terms of his funding and sources...

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby nachiket » 09 Apr 2019 03:34

Karan, get your response published in Swarajya or Opindia this time. Your takedown of Coupta was also brilliant. This one needs to be published.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Rakesh » 09 Apr 2019 04:18

108+ Karan. I second Nachiket.

What happened to Coupta's takedown? Did Swarajya publish it?

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Rakesh » 09 Apr 2019 04:21

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1115230601106284545 ---> India's 'natural ally' America is playing the most complicated game of all in this F-16 shoot down business.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby nachiket » 09 Apr 2019 04:23

Rakesh wrote:108+ Karan. I second Nachiket.

What happened to Coupta's takedown? Did Swarajya publish it?

I don't think Karan had the time to follow up, but Rohit wrote his own article debunking Coupta and included many of the arguments from Karan's post (with due credit).

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 09 Apr 2019 05:51

Yeah, I held off because Rohit, Sameer Joshi, and then AM Sinha's articles all appeared in quick succession, reducing the urgency to publish the article.

This propaganda piece from Datta deserved a rebuttal however.

I am currently snowed under at work & due to some serious family obligations, so had to wait till I got some free time in the evening to do this.

Hopefully it can be spread around or be made into an article.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby yensoy » 09 Apr 2019 06:16

Prof otherwise Fair thinks that IAF's display of AMRAAM wreckage doesn't count because there is "no chain of custody".

Really madam, you expect a chain of custody from a wreckage recovered from some field? Should we be calling the FBI to yellow tape the area and handle it per your exacting standards, and record every picture and video in a public blockchain to convince you? Next you will say that we planted the wreckage in Kisan Singh's fields.

Let's just agree that when IAF makes a statement, a billion of us are convinced. You may choose to deride it to your heart's content. Please get back to reading ISPR.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 09 Apr 2019 06:28

That has to be the most idiotic argument ever. Can she explain how Ramnarayan Goldstein smuggled out an AMRAAM from Pakistani custody, and crashed it into Indian Kashmir to display the wreckage?

Or did Joe Smith, from Podunk, Alabama hide an AMRAAM in his pants during a weapons inspection at Sargodha and hand over the missile (AMRAAM I mean) to his Indian handlers?

These are the current generation of US professors? I am beginning to think Lalmullahs kendostyx professional school had better logicians.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Sanju » 09 Apr 2019 06:53

Karan M, kudos for the fantastic rebuttal to that biased journalcyst Datta.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby MeshaVishwas » 09 Apr 2019 08:00

I really think what the PM said is true.
"Hatred for Modi has turned into Hatred for India".
And this is the first time that I have heard of the name Saikat Datta.
Need to keep a watch on these folks.
And awesome rebuttal, KaranM saar.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 09 Apr 2019 10:15

These people always hated India even if they lived in India, it is just more explicit now.

I hope IAF gives an award/citation to Wing Commander for bringing down the F-16, if we have the details hopefully tail number and Pilot name. Dont care about what Pakis or wannabe Pakis say, they will always be doubters. Generally Pakistan acknowledges an event unofficially somewhere between 2-40 years after the event if someone in Pakiland feels the truth needs to come out.

They believe in their right to lie and have no regard to the truth, from Kashmir war, 65, 71 war, Jihadis, Nuke origins, Khalistan Terrorism, Air India bombings, Kargil, IC 814 Hijack, Terrorist atrocities in 2000-02 time from, terror acts in India after that, Surgical strikes , Osama Bin Laden Hiding to today. The Same group which supported their crap supports them today in West and in India.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby syam » 09 Apr 2019 10:20

Blessed is me who has no idea who the hell this datta guy is. :D

Actually there is little technique here. You know why liberal cabal attacks the messenger first and dump the message in dustbin with out a glance? Basic 101 here is, one can never counter other's arguments completely 100pc. Better dilute the message by destroying credibility first, and then discard it as it loses potency.

Arnub forever will be the loud mouth. What ever he says, it will be by default labelled as hot gas. If we notice other voices from our side, they also enjoy similar labels. Hyper nationalist. Hinduthva guy. If the person is from lower rung, he will be vilified with much more nasty labels. There is method to this labeling strategy. The ddm spends more than half of their energy to maintain it. Just check their videos. 70% of their focus is mostly on labeling other guy. They spend very little time in countering our arguments.

My advise is, we should also try similar mo. Karan saab can't write big posts countering these pakis every time they spew their pakiness. Let's torch the paki for at least one page regardless of the message.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Rakesh » 09 Apr 2019 10:39

:lol: :D Just click on the link below to see the animated gif.

https://twitter.com/schaheid/status/1115233907887230976 ---> Wing Commander Abhinandan wasn't chasing an actual F-16 nor was the ground and airborne sensor architecture of the Indian Air Force. Both of them were chasing an "Electronic Decoy". That explains why IAF has "electronic signatures" but doesn't have any tangible evidence.

https://twitter.com/schaheid/status/1115249492096356358 ---> Abhinandan was vectored to a decoy, by the time he entered within visual range of his target, he had been hit by a BVRAAM (not WVRAAM). That explains why all of his missiles were found, no "actual" F-16 was shot down and why IAF only has "electronic signatures".

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Austin » 09 Apr 2019 10:45

This gets more comical every day from PAF who does not want to admit their F-16 got shot.

What happens in next conflict when they loose dozens of F-16 to IAF......would that be dozens of Decoys that IAF shot down :lol:

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Sid » 09 Apr 2019 10:48

A satellite on station would have been super helpful. I am sure those pictures exists, but may never see the light of day.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 09 Apr 2019 10:49

Ok, have to agree viz animation. PAF has officially lost the plot. Wasn't this guy their quasi official PR artist?

Thanks guys for the kind words. Spread it far and wide.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Sid » 09 Apr 2019 10:56

Rakesh wrote::lol: :D Just click on the link below to see the animated gif.

https://twitter.com/schaheid/status/1115233907887230976 ---> Wing Commander Abhinandan wasn't chasing an actual F-16 nor was the ground and airborne sensor architecture of the Indian Air Force. Both of them were chasing an "Electronic Decoy". That explains why IAF has "electronic signatures" but doesn't have any tangible evidence.

https://twitter.com/schaheid/status/1115249492096356358 ---> Abhinandan was vectored to a decoy, by the time he entered within visual range of his target, he had been hit by a BVRAAM (not WVRAAM). That explains why all of his missiles were found, no "actual" F-16 was shot down and why IAF only has "electronic signatures".


This joker has been peddling these asinine jokes for sometime now.

He even claimed once that the ill fated Mig-21 were carrying TV guided bombs on interception mission, hence had no R73 to begin with.

Now he says PAF has magic EW equipment which can spoof 2 AWACS, 1 ground control radar, Mig Radar, annnnd “IAF pilot’s eyes”.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby pankajs » 09 Apr 2019 10:58

nachiket wrote:Why not just ignore them? GoI action against them will give them more fame. They will love it, especially since criticizing current Indian govt. will immediately wax your star on the international circuit.

Tbh, I hadn't even heard of Vipin Narang till his utterances got retweeted and talked about after this episode. One look at his profile however convinced me that he is yet another humanitites background hot-air generator trying to sound knowledgeable about things he does not have the intellectual capacity to understand.

1. Ignoring is not an option as you allow them to set the narrative. We must find holes in their logic and use it to discredit them even if we have to use strawmans. Narang himself used a strawman to deflect his latest idiocy. Indians do get emotional and throw a lot of garbage out that gives these farts the strawmans.

2. I agree with the 2nd part. GOI getting into the fray to squat a mosquito will only elevate their profile. Unless they have crossed a line where we can subject them to a legal procedure GOI must not get involved directly. GOI will get dirty and the pigs will love it.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 09 Apr 2019 11:01

Sid wrote:A satellite on station would have been super helpful. I am sure those pictures exists, but may never see the light of day.


The cheaper option is while we know Pakis have cut internet connection to POK since 25 Feb, by this time we should have crash pics and Pilot pics from Abdul's mobile's for a relatively cheap price, plus videos as well, CMh, Funeral et al.

We probably have it but we can wait till the Pakis make more fool of themselves drip, drip, drip.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 09 Apr 2019 11:12

Guys even if we have sats etc why reveal the imagery and give away details like resolution, spectrum of operation etc? That should remain classified. I think time has come for RAW to just bribe someone to leak the info of the pilot lost, and then spread that around to the max.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby pankajs » 09 Apr 2019 11:16

^^
Correct.

Or do a sting on a Serving PAF high ranking offical or Gafoor and get them to admit their losses on hidden camera and pass it on to the Indian channels or something of that nature.

BUT what this has done is completely sidelined the Balakot loss of face for the porkies! After a sufficient time we need multiple tape(s) on that too.

If wishes could be horses ....

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 09 Apr 2019 11:20

Sid, he even copied the video from some Aselsan YouTube video, not realizing it shows ground based radars but not airborne radars. The idiot.
Next, ASELSAN advertises its RF jammer being designed for I-J bands, ie X-Ku band. (link) with no evidence it even has a working system n service, export ready not just a TD.

Phalcon is L band, our ground radars are S Band. How the heck can it jam bands it's not designed for.

Buffoon.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby syam » 09 Apr 2019 11:26

This schahid twitter handle is gold mine. Look at the people he is tagging. Our boy datta is also there.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Sid » 09 Apr 2019 11:32

Karan M wrote:Guys even if we have sats etc why reveal the imagery and give away details like resolution, spectrum of operation etc? That should remain classified. I think time has come for RAW to just bribe someone to leak the info of the pilot lost, and then spread that around to the max.


There is tons of signal intelligence that is collected on daily basis, we don't need foot on ground for such confirmation. If that pilot was indeed in hospital, there will be sufficient chatter for us to zero in on that unfortunate soul. MH doctors/worker would have been traced, and tapped to get secondary confirmation.

DM already mentioned that they are aware of that pilot's identity, but revealing it will only add to more drama.

Remember, MoD and IAF only made statements on following, everything else is white noise -
1. Confirmation of IAF strikes, and location. (no comments on damage assesment, or casualties).
2. Confirmation on IAF losses, and kill claims.
3. Statements, followed by proof, backed by more intel which won't be released.

That's it, while ISPR has indulged in emotional saas/bahu soap opera type drama from day one.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby syam » 09 Apr 2019 11:37

So quick recap,

Pakis used some turkish graphics to prove Indian radar images are wrong. :rotfl: (fixed)
Last edited by syam on 09 Apr 2019 11:54, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Sid » 09 Apr 2019 11:40

I am assuming this buffoon picked on this radar spoofing talking point from that Israeli AF strike on Syrian targets when they did something similar to their air defense.

"If" Mig went after that false target (created by F-16 using jinn magic) where were their JF-17s hiding to jump on Mig-21? Behind pine trees? And where was the Jinn F-16 which was spoofing everything we had (including PAF perhaps)?

At this point they have lost control of their own narrative.
Last edited by Sid on 09 Apr 2019 11:45, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 09 Apr 2019 11:45

Sid wrote:I am assuming this buffoon picked on this radar spoofing talking point from that Israeli AF strike on Syrian targets when they did something similar to their air defense.


And similarly how we jammed some of thier ground based radars on the morning of 26 Feb 19, but now that the PAF has altered ROE's by firing AMRAAM's, I hope we skip these warning etc and set up ambushes for PAF aircraft.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby VikramA » 09 Apr 2019 11:59

Since last night I am seeing a subtle change is the posture of the paki twitter troll commentary. They are being defensive. With some saying outlandish things like Pak using non existent decoys and the more rational one saying that electronic evidence is not enough. After yesterday One thing being unofficially acknowledged by even western journalist is that f-16 were used. Funny how nobody is pointing that when ispr can lie about that why it can also lie about f-16 shoot down

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 09 Apr 2019 12:06

F-16 not being used lie was debunked as soon as the Amraam parts were shown to any logical person, what last nights briefing showed the PAF relied heavily on its F-16's, it did not use its JF-17's for PGM's or fire BVR's, think about it if JF-17 could fire PL-12's why they were not used but only AMRAAM's were fired?

So forgetting F-16's and bringing them down even in Paki territory will equally impact PA and PAF top brass morale as takign out Jihadi camps with PGM's.

And yet many people think A) PL-15 works as per Brochure claims PLAAF has it properly inducted B) PLAAF as lots of Surplus stocks to give PAF immediately and C) its plug and play with drop tests carriage tests will be fired in 100's by the PAF.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 09 Apr 2019 12:07

To those Pakis who say electronic evidence is not enough, please shove Sri Kaiser Tufail Ji's statements down their throat. Do so before he issues a retraction saying, oh crap. :D

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby syam » 09 Apr 2019 12:14

I have better story for them. F-16 was never there. It was jf-17 which used 10 gen. spoofing tech to look like f-16. you see Jf-17 comes with 2 big switches . Blue one for creating illusion of f-16 and green one for dispelling it. #kuchbhi

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Singha » 09 Apr 2019 12:14

israel uses lots of harop drones.
also syrian GBAD is nowehere near TSP.
and syrian AF is more or less nonexistent vs IDFAF.
they fire some long range SAMs more in hope than with a concrete plan.
the pantsyr/buk units are better and may be scoring hits on cruise missiles and in one case bagged a F-16 which crash landed in israel.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Singha » 09 Apr 2019 12:26

also the hero who came with the 4 missiles 'leak' and most of the twitter army are too young to understand the lahore shootdown of searcher drone by AIM9L of a F-solah in 2001.

maybe they were pre-teen at that time and more into reading comics and stuff.

if you recall that afternoon he released the pic, I spotted it and said nothing. that night when someone posted it here,I dug out those pics of the intact seeker head from pakdef forums and posted it here.

AAMs are not impact bombs where all will be shattered. the python5 may be a hittile (if it can get a chance). a lot of money and effort is put into the laser/RF proximity fuse as that affects the kill probability. its tied to inputs from the IIR/RF seeker. the better IIR seeker can id the parts of a fighter and algorithm is there to tell which parts to target. with closing speed of mach5+ for a head on intercept of a supersonic target , the fuse is the most sensitive and TFTA part of the whole kit...it has to be accurate to within nanoseconds probably or it will be a clean miss from a "flyby"

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby sajaym » 09 Apr 2019 12:30

Is it technically feasible to transmit real time HUD footage from one aircraft to the AWACs or to the Airforce Satellite? On this occasion, since the Bison crashed it's gun camera footage went down with it.


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