MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 11 Apr 2019 00:37

Has there been any other case of soo many AMRAAM misses , Slammer tag has taken a beating thanks to this

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 11 Apr 2019 00:46

negi wrote: I never said any of what you are implying , I am only saying that IF , IF IAF feels R-77 is inadequate they will say the same thing about Astra their engagement envelopes are comparable , nothing more nothing less.

Astra has a greater envelope than baseline RVV-AE (almost 30 perc more) but more importantly, it has more modes. You can buddy launch the Astra, use it in CCM etc. Astra is very similar to RVV-SD/R77-1.

Meteor's reference is relevant because when/if it will enter service with Rafale's it will become a benchmark for BVR AAM it is not up to you or me , that's the pattern of how our services go about procuring stuff.

Relevant only in a general sense because MBDA wont integrate it on the Su30s. And even number of Meteors procured will be limited given cost per round.

Why is IN not using Dhruv's and buying shiny new MH60 R ? I mean obviously they are in different weight and range category but then so is Meteor and Astra that's how our forces work they will buy latest and shiniest thing out there in their budget.

Not necessarily true anymore for the IAF. Akash orders, the umpteen radar, ELINT orders speak for themselves. In each case, something fancy was available for the IAF to wait for, but they didnt.

5 years down the line we will be world's largest importer of arms in pure USD terms at that point in time I am sure we will enjoy some benefits , stuff like may be MBDA will agree to integrate Meteor with Tejas or other way to look at things is if our economy is doing well and IAF budget increases we will order more Rafales

Astra , Arjun , Tejas et al they all will see service but action ? I don't think so .

[/quote]

I dont agree at all. Tejas, Astra, Akash etc will be deployed and if deployed they will see action. IAF deployed Akash immediately to its highest threat areas where it had less air cover. Speaks for itself as does the repeat order which is stuck only because BEL quoted a very high price and MOD said it would review. IAF now no longer places any token orders for indigenous equipment provided they meet ASR, we have had 100 domestic radars placed for instance vs around half the number for imports.
The Balakote strike was vectored by a Netra, not a Phalcon. IAF took an IOC Netra and used it even when on day 1, for the most critical cross border strike since 1971, they could have pulled in any of their Phalcons. If given sufficient funds by MOF, wherein they dont have to choose between the 2 Phalcons and Netra, but afford both, they will also pick up more domestic systems.
I don't think you have been following recent acquisitions closely, things have changed for the better.
Phase1 was just a few token systems to build up competence - Indra1 etc
Phase2 was more advanced, but still LSP level orders for relatively less advanced systems - Indra2
Phase3 was import and then develop - this was the key period.
So you had Thales LLTR & Ashwini in devpt. EL/M-2084 ordered and Arudhra in devpt. Basically the imported system is the first comer, the domestic ones then build out the rest of the inventory, but both get deployed to critical areas etc. But the imports meet urgent operational needs. In this phase, we inducted/ordered some 100 radars.
Now there is Phase 4, this is a new area for us. We are asking DRDO/BEL etc to develop systems for which we *dont* have a plan to import up front. The radars here for example are the High Power radars to replace the THD-1955 and a brand new Mountain radar to be deployed in NE/J&K etc. Again, if you had asked me a few years back if we would ever replace the THD-1955, the backbone of our ADGES with a local design, I would have grinned and said "hopefully". Yet, here we are. https://www.financialexpress.com/defenc ... e/1197859/, https://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/English/II ... -radar.pdf).

And then there are the ELINT programs. There is no foreign equivalent to DivyaDrishti (SI Dte inducted already) and GBMES in service. Both are Indian programs.

So times, they are a changing!

Peregrine · Post by **Peregrine** » 11 Apr 2019 00:55

X Posted on the Terroristan Thread

Pakistan F-16 crashed and fell in PoK: IAF

Cheers

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 11 Apr 2019 00:56

Aditya_V wrote:Has there been any other case of soo many AMRAAM misses , Slammer tag has taken a beating thanks to this

Which explains why the western trade press almost completely blanked out the story. It just shows who funds whom and pulls the strings.

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 11 Apr 2019 01:04

Aditya_V wrote:I dont think this IAF not confident in R77 is true, then IAF would not have ordered soo many SU30 or upgraded MiG 29, Mig 21 to fire R77 or IN would have ordered INS VikramAditya plus Mig 29K. Plus M2000 upgradedversions also didnt fire MICA. Simple reason ROE, once Amraam were fired Su30 had to spoof , by the time they did engagements were amd there no IAf orders to cross the border later and go after PAF aircraft.

https://m.economictimes.com/news/defenc ... 312074.cms

There have been multiple reports that R77s are not up to their competition in the neighborhood. I am not making up the statement by the Air Marshal.. It doesnt mean they are completely useless, just that they are not as good as the AMRAAM C5.

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 11 Apr 2019 01:06

nachiket wrote:
negi wrote:Our science projects will always remain n years away , we better buy Meteor for anyways Rafales are coming at least they and one last upgrade of M2Ks might be able to use Meteors. Others will use the usual mix of hodgepodge which jokers in our system like to go with.
Saar did you read my post about Astra already being in production? Yet you call it a Science project? Where does this unrelenting need to run down indigenous projects come from?

Nachiket ji, can you point me to any reports about Astra being deployed by MKIs? Is it a token purchase or the missile is expected to be widely used?

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 11 Apr 2019 01:08

Karan M wrote:
sudeepj wrote:
IAF is not confident in the capabilities of the R77. End of story. Only the MICA, that too only on the few upgraded mirages is capable. The sad story is, if the Derby-ER is demonstrated on the Tejas, that might be the most potent BVR fighter in the Indian arsenal.
Not true, please dont give more ideas to DDM. We have a large and capable R77 inventory and even a deal with the makers has been struck thanks to Parrikar, to keep these missiles in service for a fair amount of time with BDL to take over maintainamce and life extension when necessary.

That R77s are good is one possibility among others.. Air Marshal Nohwer's statement gives me pause and makes the other possibility gain in probability.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 11 Apr 2019 01:11

sudeepj wrote:https://m.economictimes.com/news/defenc ... 312074.cmsThere have been multiple reports that R77s are not up to their competition in the neighborhood. I am not making up the statement by the Air Marshal.. It doesnt mean they are completely useless, just that they are not as good as the AMRAAM C5.

With due respect, even some of the retd Air Marshals go by what the media reports. Just see Masand's worries over Balakot and a bunch of comments on twitter once the Print story broke.
The fact remains that the R77 *is equivalent* to the AMRAAM C-5. They are comparable. The AMRAAM C-7 and beyond outclass the R77 but the R77-1/RVV-SD also exists.
As matter of fact, we were planning to upgrade the Su-30s with the RVV-SD, RVV-MD, RVV-BD etc per the Russians but the proposal was stuck with the IAF and may be dusted off once funds are available (IAF prioritized the Rafale/MMRCA).

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 11 Apr 2019 01:13

sudeepj wrote: Nachiket ji, can you point me to any reports about Astra being deployed by MKIs? Is it a token purchase or the missile is expected to be widely used?

Saar, IAF ordered 50 of them even before series produciton had started, that is while it was in development itself. Check here: https://www.livefistdefence.com/2018/03 ... ng-it.html

Bharat Dynamics has set up a production line for it in Telangana.

Speaking exclusively to Livefist, Dr. S. Christopher, Director General of the Defence Research & Development Organisation (DRDO) said, “The IAF is extremely happy with progress and has ordered 50 versions of the missile we have proven so far in the prototype phase. That’s a big boost to the program even before series production has started.”

“Earlier we would have completed trials and then gone back to the IAF for acceptance of necessity (AoN) and other formalities, which would have taken months if not years,” Christopher said. “There is usually a long back and forth that follows such a process. In the meantime, the energies invested in setting up a production line would have gone to waste.”

Instead, India’s state-owned missile maker Bharat Dynamics Ltd (BDL) has already been enlisted to tool up for the Astra. The idea is that by the time the IAF is ready to place bulk orders for the missile beyond the 50 already contracted, a warm production line would have been progressively debugged and ready to churn out Astras on or ahead of schedule.

“This is to ensure the production line is created quickly so that the final series production Astra comes out without any flaws. The 50 missile order is currently being serviced,” Christopher said.

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 11 Apr 2019 01:16

Thank you Nachiket ji! Sounds like a really promising program.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 11 Apr 2019 01:16

Also range in BVR engagements depends on launch aircraft and bogie speed and height. There are many computations . High altirude fighter at more than mach 1 speed firing against a low flying transport/Helicopter/drone will be totally different than a low altitude fighter against high altitude fighter in tail chase scenario

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 11 Apr 2019 01:18

sudeepj wrote:That R77s are good is one possibility among others.. Air Marshal Nohwer's statement gives me pause and makes the other possibility gain in probability.

I can equally point to a comment by a Su-30 guy as recent as a few months back saying the R77 is a good reliable, weapon with great ECCM. Should be on the forum someplace.
Point is just because someone is an Air Marshal does not mean they are always cent per cent right. Many things come into account, ask somebody who saw the initial batch of RVV-AEs and they'll say it was lousy (high failure rate). But we got many more after that & the vendor teams arrived to fix things.
Mind you, I was one of the ones on BRF who was convinced it was a dud and posted on it as well, but the evidence available later speaks for itself. IAF plans to keep its missiles around for quite a while, which is why there are no panic buys of replacements and ironically, which is why the Astra had to go through so many trials to prove itself (the IAF could wait).

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 11 Apr 2019 01:19

Karan M wrote:
sudeepj wrote:https://m.economictimes.com/news/defenc ... 312074.cmsThere have been multiple reports that R77s are not up to their competition in the neighborhood. I am not making up the statement by the Air Marshal.. It doesnt mean they are completely useless, just that they are not as good as the AMRAAM C5.
With due respect, even some of the retd Air Marshals go by what the media reports. Just see Masand's worries over Balakot and a bunch of comments on twitter once the Print story broke.
The fact remains that the R77 *is equivalent* to the AMRAAM C-5. They are comparable. The AMRAAM C-7 and beyond outclass the R77 but the R77-1/RVV-SD also exists.
As matter of fact, we were planning to upgrade the Su-30s with the RVV-SD, RVV-MD, RVV-BD etc per the Russians but the proposal was stuck with the IAF and may be dusted off once funds are available (IAF prioritized the Rafale/MMRCA).

Its certainly possible that they are as good. I hope the upgradation of Sukhois happens post haste and we get better, newer missiles. You are right that just because its said by the Air Marshal does not mean its true.. Its possible he was misquoted, misspoke, or his information is out of date. This aspect of relative missile capability is pretty obscure.. One finds out only when the shooting has started.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 11 Apr 2019 01:22

nachiket wrote:There are only 36 Rafales using Meteors but 270 Su-30s which can potentially use the Astra now that it is integrated with the Bars radar. I don't understand how Astra's success or failure depends on the Meteor acquisition.

Exactly. The IAF has a huge stock of R77s but they are split between 550 airframes (Su-30, Mig-29, MiG-21). Astra won't be a luxury but a dal-chawal procurement to build up numbers.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 11 Apr 2019 01:24

sudeepj wrote:Its certainly possible that they are as good. I hope the upgradation of Sukhois happens post haste and we get better, newer missiles. You are right that just because its said by the Air Marshal does not mean its true.. Its possible he was misquoted, misspoke, or his information is out of date. This aspect of relative missile capability is pretty obscure.. One finds out only when the shooting has started.

Well you can estimate (you have your own development teams who can give you a pretty good idea of where the tech. is at, whats brochure bashing, what's possible) and we have some friends in our corner who are very very well versed with the AMRAAM and the F-16. Plus we have been exercising against NATO AF/RSAF and other competent AMRAAM operators for a while now. I am sure the IAF has a decent idea of what the missile is "theoretically capable" of, and adds a buffer to be safe, and the SOP/procurements take that into account.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 11 Apr 2019 01:33

The basic issue with R77 vs AMRAAM- C5 is they are equivalent. That in itself puts the onus back on tactics, EW etc. Ideally you want to have the advantage. Which is why IAF would definitely want a missile that completely outclasses the AMRAAM. Problem is the Meteor is too expensive/unavailable for 3rd party integration by MBDA, and the i-Derby ER, also matches the later marks of the AMRAAM. The USAF as it moves to the latest AMRAAM may open up older stocks for export (C7 and above) to ME countries en masse and some may find their way to Pakistan (esp. via KSA).

IMHO, 3 things will happen. SFDR will remain a priority program for IAF as will a dual-pulse motor equipped Astra Mk2 (which already exists BTW in a manner of speaking, just see the NGARM). Astra Mk2 will be very similar to a Mk1 but with minimal changes IMHO for quick devpt and delivery. We might even see limited Astra Mk1 orders (500 odd units) to stabilize the line as Mk2 is expected.

Also, some dastardly individuals may try to integrate a certain European LRAAM on a certain Russian fighter, same as they integrated an Indian missile on it without Russian (and European, in this case) support.

negi · Post by **negi** » 11 Apr 2019 01:41

Everyone who said no to us before has come around ; there was a time Amreeka blocked even spares of Sea King to us ; when we will have enough moolah (read big enough market) and now with EU economy already under stress in few years time we shouldn't be surprised if MBDA comes around and is ok integrating Meteor with Tejas and even the MKI , this is not just a hypothesis this happens with us all the time when AAD became a success we now have S400 sale cleared and Amreeka also wants to sell PAC 2/3 to us . The way to maintain enough domestic presence in Indian military scene is not via listening to all their wishes and pursuing all of them but actually by serving few of them so well that they are not motivated to look elsewhere . Radars , Arty (now) and Naval stuff are few areas where I genuinely believe domestic platforms are seeing real action , however likes of Insas and Arjun have not seen same success . Decision to buy Apache longbows when LCH is doing so well also points to a brain fade at many levels and that's why I remain skeptical of such developments unless a critical mass is crossed. Now that I have derailed this thread let me even use the space to call out K9 thunder as another useless blunder when ATAGs barrel and breech assembly could have easily been built over Arjun chassis to get the same platform , sure I am simplifying things but the point here is our self reliance efforts lack planning oh btw K9 uses MTU engine and hydropneumatic suspension same as a certain desi MBT.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 11 Apr 2019 01:58

Negi, problem is Meteor is genuinely state of the art. Time was when this stuff would be denied to us. And now we are buying it. So the MBDA guys will ask us for all sorts of BS access to the Su-30 radar, EW etc to integrate it, apart from money and IAF itself will say get lost. Now, with all the stuff we have integrated on our own (Astra on Su-30 for example), I think other integrations may well occur. Russians are different in that they sold us Su-30 with Bars/R-77 when they themselves had only Su-27s with N001V/R-27. Nobody else would do that. But their electronic systems are too heavy and overengineered for reliability, which impose payload costs.

About radars, arty etc, seeing action, I think the action is where the leadership is. With GOI firmly focused on Make in India, leadership in services sees that and follows suit. Otherwise MOD you know what happens usually.

Its not all successful.. we are yet to make a decent airborne SDR on our own, forcing (limited) imports for now...if an Akash style success was there, a mass order would have been placed. Platforms apart, we are dependent abroad for FCR on fighters, munitions, and also fancy EW systems. Our new programs are seeking to change that but FCR remains an issue.

The best overview on current IAF thinking is this. Read this.
https://salute.co.in/military-modernisa ... air-force/

I am firmly of the belief that the 3 most critical IAF programs for us (apart from LCA) are the Uttam, local EW programs (RWR/pod on Su-30, for instance) and the ground attack munitions being developed at DRDL/RCI. These will just entirely change the complexion of air warfare for the IAF. Imagine a strike on PAF AFB just happening completely at BVR, because every fighter has half a dozen odd Indian PGMs/glide bombs etc hanging off the pylons and IAF has such a huge inventory they just don't care about using huge numbers per strike. It will completely overturn all of IAFs assumptions about attrition, target lists, etc.

If IAF shows the vision, for instance, to have variants of Uttam developed for Su-30, MiG-29 as drop-in, refit/upgrades, we just move up completely to the next level in terms of our own secure systems, which nobody else knows about. Uttam even has LPI capability planned.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 11 Apr 2019 02:15

Imagine a strike package of 18 Su-30s,
A2G strike team: 8 with 4x ASB Glide (100km, Garuthma), 2x SPICE, 2x DARE EW Pods, 4x Astra, 2x ASRAAM. Strike with AD capability.
4 Su-30s with 2x DARE EW pods and centerline Suppression jammer, 2x ESM pods for cueing NGARM, 6x NGARM, 2x Astra, 2x ASRAAM, mission - protecting strike package from ground based AD.
Remaining 6 Su-30 with Air Superiority tasking, 2x EW pods, and 8x Astra, 4x ASRAAM each.

The package launches a total of 48 PGMs at a single AFB. Now, good luck to the PAF in intercepting that.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 11 Apr 2019 02:26

Is there a plan for ASRAAM integration with Su-30? Will it work with the same HMS?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 11 Apr 2019 02:28

nachiket wrote:Is there a plan for ASRAAM integration with Su-30? Will it work with the same HMS?

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2019/01 ... fleet.html

My guess is they will add the Thales Topsight or Elbit DASH.

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 11 Apr 2019 02:29

paks parroting this line now

https://twitter.com/schaheid/status/1115333254184415232 ---> IAF will never give out its Phalcon symbology. The images they peddled as "radar screen" are NOT, i repeat "NOT" real. They were reproduced in a separate graphic format. They show F-16 "vanish". That could happen if the F-16 started to jam the Phalcon or took evasive action.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 11 Apr 2019 02:35

You are like 4 pages out of date. Paks have no jammer to jam the Phalcon. The symbology is real and from the unified display operators work station. What evasive action could the F-16 take which it hadnt taken already and was still on the screen. Schaheid is a cartoon.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 11 Apr 2019 02:36

A BVR missile with not great probability of kill (not suggesting or know if R-77 is one) will still result in a mission kill for the adversary. The only time it will be a problem is if it is a dud (or the adversary through any means can render it useless). If the above condition is not met, and PK is say 90% of one type and 45% of the other, the adversary still have to take countermeasures else he will be part of what makes it 45%. Yes he can push his luck and say that there is only half chance that I will get blown, let me push anyways, it is his plane (perhaps $60-70 million plane), his life and mission that gets blown away by a $1 million missile.

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 11 Apr 2019 02:40

The SAAW is a key program.. Dare I say, more important than even the BVR. If the SAAW works as per design, no need for even WVR

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Apr 2019 03:14

KaranM and sudeepj,
One thing I want to learn more is the 1000 kg DRDO bomb.
Is it really local design and can be adapted to SPICE kit?

Nowshera enounter shown need for long burn BVRs.
This 8 sec burn and energy management for the final hit wont do.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 11 Apr 2019 03:17

Karan M wrote:
nachiket wrote:Is there a plan for ASRAAM integration with Su-30? Will it work with the same HMS?
https://www.livefistdefence.com/2019/01 ... fleet.html

My guess is they will add the Thales Topsight or Elbit DASH.

Thanks. I missed that somehow. The article doesn't mention the HMS though. Looks like Shiv Aroor forgot to ask about it.

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 11 Apr 2019 03:23

ramana wrote:KaranM and sudeepj,
One thing I want to learn more is the 1000 kg DRDO bomb.
Is it really local design and can be adapted to SPICE kit?

Nowshera enounter shown need for long burn BVRs.
This 8 sec burn and energy management for the final hit wont do.

Ramana ji, If I understand the SAAW capability correctly, the 1000 pounder is an overkill for almost all targets in Paapstan. The SAAW is very much capable of getting through more than a meter of concrete and scoring direct hits with single digit feet level accuracy. It also has a stealthy boxy shape and likely composite wings that are radar transparent. A single Su can carry tens of these. What the long range standoff precision strike capability at a low price (in sorties, in cost of the munition) means is apparent to all. None of the sensors in this weapon require much 'shock' hardening.. They arent cooled or anything limiting carriage life.. In the primary role, they dont need updates..

Its just a fantastic fantastic weapon.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 11 Apr 2019 03:28

Escalation ladder is not a trivial topic of lets just give those goatbuggerers a bloody nose and be done with it... the escalation ladder in this case goes all the way to nuclear war - outside of nato/warsaw pact mutually assured destruction the theory is very shaky and untested and with jarnail al goati in charge the risks of miscalculation and mistaken nuclear strike are very high... until the game started no one really knew where this would end; thats why india repeated the messages she did several times; we have however called the nuke bluff... but that doesnt mean its game over yet

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 11 Apr 2019 03:30

sudeepj wrote: Ramana ji, If I understand the SAAW capability correctly, the 1000 pounder is an overkill for almost all targets in Paapstan. The SAAW is very much capable of getting through more than a meter of concrete and scoring direct hits with single digit feet level accuracy. It also has a stealthy boxy shape and likely composite wings that are radar transparent. A single Su can carry tens of these. What the long range standoff precision strike capability at a low price (in sorties, in cost of the munition) means is apparent to all. None of the sensors in this weapon require much 'shock' hardening.. They arent cooled or anything limiting carriage life.. In the primary role, they dont need updates..

Its just a fantastic fantastic weapon.

What kind of guidance system is used on the SAAW? I've been trying to find information but nothing is mentioned.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 11 Apr 2019 04:11

Seeker, INS/GPS.

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 11 Apr 2019 04:14

nachiket wrote:
sudeepj wrote: Ramana ji, If I understand the SAAW capability correctly, the 1000 pounder is an overkill for almost all targets in Paapstan. The SAAW is very much capable of getting through more than a meter of concrete and scoring direct hits with single digit feet level accuracy. It also has a stealthy boxy shape and likely composite wings that are radar transparent. A single Su can carry tens of these. What the long range standoff precision strike capability at a low price (in sorties, in cost of the munition) means is apparent to all. None of the sensors in this weapon require much 'shock' hardening.. They arent cooled or anything limiting carriage life.. In the primary role, they dont need updates..

Its just a fantastic fantastic weapon.
What kind of guidance system is used on the SAAW? I've been trying to find information but nothing is mentioned.

I dont know. If I had to guess based on how the weapon looks, it definitely has INS + NAVIC/GPS, and possibly an optical sensor. Its a Sri SDB laal in short.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Apr 2019 05:05

sudeepj,
For a bomb designer its all about targets.
IAF needs capability that a 1000 kg bomb will give.
They already have the 500 kg PSLD(?) and 450 kg HSLD with Griffin
Recent festivities needed heavier maal.
SAAW type is good for certain types only.

FizzleYa if you go through the purchase list has the BLU109 with JADAM and Paveway.
That gives them more capability.
it was SPICE 2000 penetrator that filled a void.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Apr 2019 07:28

Folks pls check the operation red flag imax film by stephen lowe on youtube to get an inside look at
E3 sentry how they track red flag targets

console symbology is no big deal its the ability to detect and tag targets and there is no way a puny fighter can jam a huge awacs radar . If they had any ability all of their fighters would have jammed and gone invisible

Scaheid is a ispr fellow who thinks he is smart. Did not even know the missile seekers escape the blast intact

No need to post his links here

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 11 Apr 2019 08:12

ramana wrote:sudeepj,
For a bomb designer its all about targets.
IAF needs capability that a 1000 kg bomb will give.
They already have the 500 kg PSLD(?) and 450 kg HSLD with Griffin
Recent festivities needed heavier maal.
SAAW type is good for certain types only.

FizzleYa if you go through the purchase list has the BLU109 with JADAM and Paveway.
That gives them more capability.
it was SPICE 2000 penetrator that filled a void.

Ramana ji, given the realities of PAF capex, they are stuck with the old aircraft shelters they built around the cold war time. These are meter, meter and a half thick steel reinforced concrete shelters. The SAAW should be able to penetrate these with ease. The explicit naming of the weapon indicates that its not a general purpose weapon but something designed keeping airfields in mind. One Su will be able to carry 16-20 of these, launch them from a standoff range and take out entire air fields in one sortie. Check out this SDB test against an air shelter.. Our SAAW should be something similar, but with better penetration capability as its designed from ground up to be an anti airfield weapon, while the SDB is more general purpose.

Here is one type of PAF air shelter. Does not appear to be more than a meter thick.

time stamp 1:00

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 11 Apr 2019 08:58

https://twitter.com/manupubby/status/11 ... 7060180992

Negative balance of power was created in the region after the US provided 500 AMRAAMs to the Pakistani air force. This gave them BVR capability that was missing for Pakistan during the Kargil war - Air Marshal Nohwar at an Ananta seminar on Balakot

We had to take defensive measures at all times after the Balakot strike as the Pakistani air force had greater BVR missile capabilities - Air Marshal Nohwar.

PAF did not see the 'little fish' that snuck up when its fighters were concentrating on getting a bigger aircraft like the Su 30 MKI - Air Marshal Nohwar.

The R 73 fired by Wing Commander Abhinandan is the most potent close range air to air missile in the world- Air Marshal Nohwar.

The Balakot strike was not a silver bullet. There can be no silver bullet when it comes to Pak sponsored terror. Will require a patient and long term approach - former High Commissioner to Pak Sharat Sabharwal.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 11 Apr 2019 09:24

As Air Marshal Nohwar statement makes it clear that all the PAF fleet up there was out to take a Su-30MKI .....which they considered a prizes asset to take out hence the F-16's up there fired number of maximum AMRAAM at Su-30 MKI while MKI had to take defensive measures.

An MKI would have been H&D issue for PAF post stike which they didnt succeeded.

SidSoma · Post by **SidSoma** » 11 Apr 2019 09:33

Karan M wrote:You are like 4 pages out of date. Paks have no jammer to jam the Phalcon. The symbology is real and from the unified display operators work station. What evasive action could the F-16 take which it hadnt taken already and was still on the screen. Schaheid is a cartoon.

1. considering the following as the order of difficulty in jamming a radar. Fighter < Awacs < Ground (fighter radar is easiest to jam and ground is hardest)
2. Did Balakot strikes involve an element of jamming Pak ground radar. Does that imply we have the equip and expertise to jam their AWACS and therefore fighters.

Is it that simple to deduct ?

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 11 Apr 2019 10:03

Aditya_V wrote:I dont think this IAF not confident in R77 is true, then IAF would not have ordered soo many SU30 or upgraded MiG 29, Mig 21 to fire R77 or IN would have ordered INS VikramAditya plus Mig 29K. Plus M2000 upgradedversions also didnt fire MICA. Simple reason ROE, once Amraam were fired Su30 had to spoof , by the time they did engagements were amd there no IAf orders to cross the border later and go after PAF aircraft.

https://m.economictimes.com/news/defenc ... 312074.cms

Saar, ROE doesn’t apply anywhere in the world if you are being locked on and fired upon.

What Pakis did was another tactical brilliance, in a real war scenario, MKI’s, after evading BVR Missiles fired from the edge of the envelope, would have chased them into their territory and F16 without their AMRAAM would have been in big trouble.

Seems R77 lacks in range by 10-15 KM against AMRAAM and PAF exploited that advantage.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 11 Apr 2019 10:07

Katare wrote:.

Seems R77 lacks in range by 10-15 KM against AMRAAM and PAF exploited that advantage.

R77 is slightly longer ranged than AIM120C5. The NEZ of both is approximately similar.