MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 27 Oct 2019 12:05

Looking at events at Hindsight Pakis had a plan for airstrikes and that plan failed. Give the LY 80 was their most recent it was probably part of such a plan which failed hence the pretty desperate attempt on 27 Feb morning.
The events of the 2 days spooked them to shut down airspace for4 months, PIA would not be normally flying its Lahore Karachi and Karachi Isloo flights to first go to Afgan Border hug it and then come back. Hell on flight radar some off the Lahore to Islamabad flights went to the Afghan border. There were also some unusually high number of flights to from Pakistan to China, indicating Chinese personnel working on Cpec were being evacuated

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 28 Oct 2019 02:11

Guys, all I can say is IAF has wargamed and planned how to take out both SPADA and LY-80 sites, and they have ample tools at their disposal to do so.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby naird » 07 Nov 2019 22:10

Pakis and their PR game. A complete section in a museum dedicated to operation swift retort.

https://twitter.com/warnesyworld/status ... 01346?s=20

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya G » 08 Nov 2019 02:13

Reg comments on the thread about lack of IAF bases in the area;

Pathankot is barely 100 miles away from Nowshera. Our AEW had detected PAF take off and if I recall we had a 15 minute early warning.

We had 2 mirages already loitering over the area, 2 MiG-21s from ORP and another 2 Su-30s operating from Sirsa (450 km away).

So both Pathankot and Adampur units could not engage PAF on the day.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 08 Nov 2019 13:10

Looking at the stall the PAF is a complete H&D organization, what an amount of money which goes in there along with fake Su 30 kill. What they did on 27 Feb was an unsuccessful gorilla raid and they forming themselves like non state actors

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 10 Nov 2019 23:28

naird wrote:Pakis and their PR game. A complete section in a museum dedicated to operation swift retort.

https://twitter.com/warnesyworld/status ... 01346?s=20


What a bunch of unprofessional jokers. Unfortunately, the IAFs tendency to downplay its own efforts allows them such PR victories. Any other AF in the world would have given a spate of interviews suitably sanitized calling the PAFs account into disrepute. IAF went and flew an Avenger formation on its raising day, and that too without much ado, so 9 out of 10 people missed its significance.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby naird » 11 Nov 2019 20:03

Karan M wrote:What a bunch of unprofessional jokers. Unfortunately, the IAFs tendency to downplay its own efforts allows them such PR victories. Any other AF in the world would have given a spate of interviews suitably sanitized calling the PAFs account into disrepute. IAF went and flew an Avenger formation on its raising day, and that too without much ado, so 9 out of 10 people missed its significance.


An area that needs to be improved holistically. Our armed forces dont consider them as important at all ! They are missing the fact that information warfare itself can bring a country down !

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Rishi » 12 Nov 2019 15:22

I think that there is a lot of conjecture here without either of the participants coming up with more details. Make of that what you will.

Time to lock this thread?

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby fanne » 12 Nov 2019 18:12

The best proof of paf shooting su30mki- they gave a higher award to the pilot who shot down mig 21 (after being late to the scene, by which time abhinandan had already shot the f-16) and lower medal to the pilot who supposedly shot down the su30mki. The announcement of that medal also came a little later, as an after thought

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 12 Nov 2019 20:53

Its not rocket science why the IAF has so carefully kept Abhi away from the spotlight bar a few scripted shows re: his award, and photo-ops with the CAS. If he opens his mouth and punctures PAF propaganda, the next IAF pilots who land in Pak, something which will likely happen in a large-scale conflict, will be disappeared or executed out of hand.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 12 Nov 2019 20:54

PAF has no such worries as they plan to fight from thier territory

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 12 Nov 2019 21:00

True, they intend to attack most of our AFB with massed volleys of REK equipped bombs. The S400 will complicate their mission planning to a degree.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Shameek » 12 Nov 2019 21:10

I hope in time there is at least a documentary from us similar to the History channel ones on the surgical strikes. It does not need any operational details at all but capturing the event is necessary.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Rishi » 13 Nov 2019 13:54

Locking unless there is new news

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya G » 14 Nov 2019 03:01

srai wrote:
Indranil wrote:Actually, I have to agree with AM Masand sirjee here. Can somebody here draw me a use case where a fighter needs more than say 4-6 A2A missiles?

Post-Balakot air combat showed that it’s going to be very hard to shoot down a modern 4th-Gen fighter with long-ranged BVR AAM shots. Combination of aircraft performance, EW/ECCM/SPJ, situational awareness, and pilot and support training makes it very difficult to shoot down from a distance. 4/5 AMRAAMs couldn’t bring down a Su-30MKI.

The value of BVR AAMs in the context of the above incident was that the PAF managed to keep the IAF Su-30MKI CAP at bay long enough for their F-16 strike package to ingress, deploy weapons and egress. Low PK and expendable but still served a purpose.


Some good posts on the subject above ... thanks.

One could argue that PAF F-16s effectively achieved "mission kill" over Avenger-1 and Avenger-2 (Su-30s). The latter being kept away from the theatre due to onslaught of BVRAAMs. An expensive, wasteful technique but useful in a once-off skirmish. The F-16s however failed to create an airspace secure enough to prevent ingress by Alpha-1 (Varthaman) and Aplha-2 and instead got shot down. So mixed bag.

I had made a point elsewhere that both Adampur (MiG-29) and Pathankot (MiG-21) based units could not contribute to the fight. Also what about the Mirage upgrades? much feared but seemingly did not attract any attention from F-16s?

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 14 Nov 2019 10:23

I think the PAf had air superiority till additional MIG 29's and Su30MKI joined the fight and they retreated, in a one off skirmish it worked in a larger conflict it would not, PAF had the advantage of both aircraft crashing in its territory, a professional airforce would have evaluated its failures not a Nazi regime type one.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby chola » 14 Nov 2019 16:10

Aditya_V wrote:I think the PAf had air superiority till additional MIG 29's and Su30MKI joined the fight and they retreated, in a one off skirmish it worked in a larger conflict it would not, PAF had the advantage of both aircraft crashing in its territory, a professional airforce would have evaluated its failures not a Nazi regime type one.


You can't blame them. If the PAF did a serious and professional assessment of its situation it would crumple ip and die of despair. They have to operate on delusion and denial.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby manjgu » 14 Nov 2019 17:30

Aditya_V wrote:I think the PAf had air superiority till additional MIG 29's and Su30MKI joined the fight and they retreated, in a one off skirmish it worked in a larger conflict it would not, PAF had the advantage of both aircraft crashing in its territory, a professional airforce would have evaluated its failures not a Nazi regime type one.


the PAF never crossed into indian air space and only the Mig21 crossed into Pak air space... they lost 1 and we lost 1 ..so i am not sure how air superiority works ! If IAF is not contesting the Paki air space, isnt it a given that PAF will have full control over their air space? I dont think PAF retreated when SU's joined the fight ( because IAF only identified PAF as bandits but not hostile). PAF fired their AMRAAMS and their days work was over. IF the missiles hit so be it else they were safe inside their air space.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 14 Nov 2019 17:46

The fact that the PAF could get the Mig 21 Bison and Fire another Amraam was because they had local air superiority while the 2 Su-30 MKI were dodging 5 AMRAAMS, thats why the 3 F-16 first approached the LOC, then 1 got shot down and while Alpha-1 and wingman were going for the others one F-16 shot down Alpha-1 with an AMRAAM , gave chase to his wing man and fired another Amraam which was recovered PIr Panjal mountains.

When the SU-30 had done dodging the Amraams and 2 more MIG 29's plus 2 more SU 30 MKI joined the fight, even this F-16 along with others moved towards landing in Pakistan using Afterburners to get well away from the Battlefeild, the Mirage -3/V and JF-17 headed for airbases after dropping thier H-4 and 83REK's.

See the video from Mirpur, you can clearly see the aircraft falling down (totally different from the Tadpole shaped wreckage shot from Charhoi and Tanamandi in J&K), between 15-22 sec an aircraft is turning North East engaging After Burner, exactly 1 minute after that at around 1:20 in the video An aircraft comes from West South West and nearly at the same spot you can see a missile separating from this aircraft going in a North East direction- the aircraft then turns back in west- South Westerly direction, we know Wing Commander's ABhinandan's aircraft fell near Horan village.

So the F-16 fired 1 Amraam which hit 1 Mig 21 Bison and could come unmolested near the LOC and fire 1 more Amraam, this would not have been possible to target the 2 Mig 21 Bison's that day in a few minutes when 4 Su -30 and 2 MIg 29's, in addition to the 2 M-2000 I were ready to join the fight. PAF had this opportunity for a few minutes- after the IAF numbers started coming up they would not bee even able to do this even thier Airspace.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby srai » 15 Nov 2019 01:24

^^^
Image

Main action occurred all within one minute (between 10:22 and 10:23)!

The above MiG-21s movement look like a classic offensive split maneuver.

Image

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya G » 15 Nov 2019 03:00

Post by Kaiser Tufail on MiG-29 vs F-16 incident

https://twitter.com/Aditya_G_Social/sta ... 5901881369

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya G » 15 Nov 2019 03:06

How local air superiority is to be achieved is best illustrated by comparing Op Balakot and Op Swift Retort. In nutshell both ops aimed to executed stand off precision attacks.

The IAF achieve total surprise and was able to deliver munitions from within enemy airspace. Moreover majority bombs landed on target that too at a considerable distance.

PAF on the other hand wasted a number of BVR weapons - both air to air and air to surface as none of the intended targets were destroyed. Instead ended up with IAF interceptors hunting down an F-16 within own airspace!

This truly was a fascinating engagement for students of air to air warfare between peer adversaries.

Aditya_V wrote:The fact that the PAF could get the Mig 21 Bison and Fire another Amraam was because they had local air superiority while the 2 Su-30 MKI were dodging 5 AMRAAMS, thats why the 3 F-16 first approached the LOC, then 1 got shot down and while Alpha-1 and wingman were going for the others one F-16 shot down Alpha-1 with an AMRAAM , gave chase to his wing man and fired another Amraam which was recovered PIr Panjal mountains.

When the SU-30 had done dodging the Amraams and 2 more MIG 29's plus 2 more SU 30 MKI joined the fight, even this F-16 along with others moved towards landing in Pakistan using Afterburners to get well away from the Battlefeild, the Mirage -3/V and JF-17 headed for airbases after dropping thier H-4 and 83REK's.

See the video from Mirpur, you can clearly see the aircraft falling down (totally different from the Tadpole shaped wreckage shot from Charhoi and Tanamandi in J&K), between 15-22 sec an aircraft is turning North East engaging After Burner, exactly 1 minute after that at around 1:20 in the video An aircraft comes from West South West and nearly at the same spot you can see a missile separating from this aircraft going in a North East direction- the aircraft then turns back in west- South Westerly direction, we know Wing Commander's ABhinandan's aircraft fell near Horan village.

So the F-16 fired 1 Amraam which hit 1 Mig 21 Bison and could come unmolested near the LOC and fire 1 more Amraam, this would not have been possible to target the 2 Mig 21 Bison's that day in a few minutes when 4 Su -30 and 2 MIg 29's, in addition to the 2 M-2000 I were ready to join the fight. PAF had this opportunity for a few minutes- after the IAF numbers started coming up they would not bee even able to do this even thier Airspace.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby manjgu » 15 Nov 2019 14:36

1) is achieving total surprise akin to air superiority? IAF also turned back/tail once bombs were released. cant call that retreat ! 2) if u read tufail's post, he says PAF was not authorised to engage IAF as long as IAF did not cross the LOC/border. I think same ROE applied to IAF on Feb 27. IAF was not authorised to engage PAF if PAF did not cross the LOC/border. thats why i am not sure if the word 'air superiority' can be applied to Feb 27 incident. the F16 baited the IAF with a dash towards LOC, IAF responded...PAF let loose a salvo of missiles and turned back/tail. I dont see how air superiority applies to this F16/SU episode? and how F16 turning back/tail be termed as retreat? PAF never ever crossed indian air space... yes the Mig 21 and F16's dueled over Pak air space where the results were 1-1. So even there i dont see how PAF had air superiority?

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Philip » 15 Nov 2019 18:16

Quote correct Manigou.When you turn tail and run, how is that air superiority? How many seconds were the Paki pilots in Indian airspace? If that's what they call " air superiority", then at the next major spat with Pak, the IAF have little to fear!

Air Superiority was displayed by the IAF both in '71 and at Kargil over the battlespace.In E.Pak, the PAF was exterminated totally allowing venerable subsonic naval Seahawks and Alize ASW birds to bomb Chittagong and other targets in E.Pak at will.Precision rocket fire on his HQ by IAF MIGs forced the Paki governor to scuttle off and capitulate leading to Gen.Niazi's ignominious surrender at Dacca.At Kargil Paki F-16s similarly fled when IAF MIG-29s locked onto them.Cowards "fleeing to flee another day" must be the motto of the PAF!

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 15 Nov 2019 18:25

Yup may be air superiority not there, but we need to make sure the PAF loses a lot more and hopefully in future no restraints, if faith is lost in PAF- the PA uniformed and uniformed morale will also be shaken quite badly

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Rakesh » 15 Nov 2019 18:30

Rishi wrote:Locking unless there is new news

When we lock this thread, discussions continue in other threads. So let this thread remain open. I just moved a whole bunch of posts from the IAF: News & Discussion thread.

News of the F-16B (Serial # 84606) wreckage will come out in due time :)

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby fanne » 15 Nov 2019 20:07

why this tail #? What is the logic/intel behind this. We know that one of the pilot who got some award (the one who ejected, not his partner), in official letter, he was first flying a 2 seater, then it changed to 1 seater (and some tail/serial number given - 06?). Is that the source or more intel?
rgds,
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby manjgu » 15 Nov 2019 21:14

air superiority is decided over a contested air space...on 27th PAF never crossed Indian air space for even a second. they fired and fled...that was the sum of it all. their imaginary air superiority was torn to shreds moment the Mig popped up from nowhere up their sorry ass. imagine the panic and confusion. It was unfortunate our boy went down/captured but not before blasting the F16 sorry ass. ...had abhi been as timid as PAF, i dont know what spin would PAF give to their fright/panic?

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Shameek » 15 Nov 2019 21:21

fanne wrote:why this tail #? What is the logic/intel behind this. We know that one of the pilot who got some award (the one who ejected, not his partner), in official letter, he was first flying a 2 seater, then it changed to 1 seater (and some tail/serial number given - 06?). Is that the source or more intel?
rgds,
fanne


On F16.net there is a claim saying this is the aircraft that shot down an MKI. :roll:

Link

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Picklu » 15 Nov 2019 21:41

Aditya G wrote:Post by Kaiser Tufail on MiG-29 vs F-16 incident

https://twitter.com/Aditya_G_Social/sta ... 5901881369


Jai ho !!! Thanks for keeping that screenshot from ACIG :D

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Rishirishi » 16 Nov 2019 06:25

I have been trying the find out the effectiveness of the Amrams of PAF.

1 Will they not be jammed by the Israeli EL-8222 jammers?
2 What is the Amrams no escape range? compared to the R73/R23 of IAF
3 Are the R-77 just paper tigers?
4 What is the purpose of having SU-30MKI's if they are not able to match the PAF Amrams on falcons?
5 I know IAF will get meteor on the Rafael. Will PAF be able to get an equalizer from Unkil (I am assumign Unkil wants to maintan a parity to divide and rule TSP and India.
6 IS the Derby/Python/MICA missile any usefull as long as PAF has the amrams? Wondering why the Israelis use the Amrams when they make the Derby ?

Thanks if anyone can take time to answer my questions.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 16 Nov 2019 11:15

We have been around this a few times but here we go .The AMRAAM did not achive the name Slammer for missing for 6 out 7 times , which is what the PAF achieved that day. No body in the world wants to talk about this as this will be big blow to the Aura around American weapons.

The Su30 MKI and some F-16's on the Pakistani side were doing subsonic CAP eyeing each other, while this was happening 2 F-16's came fast and High speed using Afterburners- AAM range depends on the Target and Launching aircraft and Launched missiles at DMAX-1 range. This is sub optimal position and wasted 5 AMRAAMS but the SU30MKI's had to dodge these missiles allowing 3 F-16s to come close to the LOC after the Mirage 3/5 H-4 and JF 17 MK83REK bombs had failed.

In a reverse situation where the F-16 is subsonic and a SU-30 MKI is coming with high Mach 2 launch speed the R-77 will have much greater engagement range than the F-16 AMRAAM combo. Apparently asper IAF Air Chiefs Rafale/ Meteor Combo, the Meteor Ramjet has enough sustaining power even to negate this scenario.

Regarding the Israeli position, 2 points 1) The have access to Amraams which are designed with the F-15/F-16 platform in mind, radar etc 2) 75-80% of Israeli purchases of American weapons is paid for by the American tax payer. In such a scenario why would they not keep buying AMRAAMS. They develop Derby, Pythons to keep domestic MIC going and just to ensure they keep up with latest tech. in case of Future embargo's etc.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby manjgu » 16 Nov 2019 21:00

Rishirishi wrote:I have been trying the find out the effectiveness of the Amrams of PAF.

1 Will they not be jammed by the Israeli EL-8222 jammers?
2 What is the Amrams no escape range? compared to the R73/R23 of IAF
3 Are the R-77 just paper tigers?
4 What is the purpose of having SU-30MKI's if they are not able to match the PAF Amrams on falcons?
5 I know IAF will get meteor on the Rafael. Will PAF be able to get an equalizer from Unkil (I am assumign Unkil wants to maintan a parity to divide and rule TSP and India.
6 IS the Derby/Python/MICA missile any usefull as long as PAF has the amrams? Wondering why the Israelis use the Amrams when they make the Derby ?
Thanks if anyone can take time to answer my questions.


i will try to give a pointwise reply

1. we dont know in what configuration was IAF a/c flying on the 27th. PAF tried to shoot down SU's with AMRAAMs and we know SU dont carry EL8222. so how did SU evade the AMRAAMs is best known to IAF. was it by electronic means or by manoeuvring or by combination of both? the moot question ..can 8222 jam amraams is a very technical question and i am afraid none of us are competent to answer the q. Also a jammer like EL8222 will not give similar results if mounted on different a/c. its performance also depends on size of a/c...a 8222 on SU will be less effective than on a smaller a/c.

2. i think comparison of amraam with R73 is not proper. they are different categories of missiles in terms of their range, guidance.

3. no missile including AMRAAM s or R77 are magic bullets or paper tigers. they have to be employed within some constraints. all AMRAAMs save 1 missed while 1 R73 did the damage. depends on how is it employed.

4. for the nth time, SU MKI are more than a match for F16's ...dont take the skirmish on 27th as determining capabilities of a/c. PAF had the element of surprise, numbers and by breaking ROE they managed to surprise and put SU's on the defensive. but if India/Pak are at war, PAF will not have this luxury of surprise, numbers and IAF will be looking to shoot and kill.

5. speculative question at this stage..no one can answer for sure. IMHO, i dont think so. maybe china can supply some missile but doubt if it can be put on F16's ... and wether the rest of PAF has a/c with kind of radars to guide such advanced, long range missiles.

6. ALL missiles have their uses, so dont discount any missile. PAF has only a limited number of AMRAAMs. if full scale hostilities break out, they cant be so trigger happy as they were on 27th ! each missile has its own plus/minus and guidance constraints. did not the R73 scorch the F16 ass?

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby yensoy » 16 Nov 2019 22:25

Karan M wrote:Guys, all I can say is IAF has wargamed and planned how to take out both SPADA and LY-80 sites, and they have ample tools at their disposal to do so.


Isn't this what Baba alluded to when he repeated the govt claim of hitting targets enroute to Balakot, i.e. in Chakothi & Muzaffarabad, clarifying that these were AA sites on hilltops? i.e. it's not that IAF had only planned to do so, they actually did so

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 16 Nov 2019 23:11

I think this claim by Baba was more hot air than substance, we went to great lengths to avoid crossing Paks redlines in terms of conventional targets. This was a very carefully calibrated op against "non military, extremist targets".

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Katare » 18 Nov 2019 00:09

Have anyone seen/read anything that mentions awards being given to the pilots who shot down mig 21 and mythical Su30 MKI?

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya G » 18 Nov 2019 01:48

Katare wrote:Have anyone seen/read anything that mentions awards being given to the pilots who shot down mig 21 and mythical Su30 MKI?


https://twitter.com/Aditya_G_Social/sta ... 8069081088

They have not disclosed other awards aside from Abhinandan's VrC.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby fanne » 18 Nov 2019 03:38

He meant on the tsp side, the highest award goes to the pilot who shot mig 21 and later after an afterthought gave a lower award to a pilot who supposedly shot a SU30MKI. That itself puts the end to the speculation.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Rakesh » 18 Nov 2019 06:33

Katare wrote:Have anyone seen/read anything that mentions awards being given to the pilots who shot down mig 21 and mythical Su30 MKI?

Yes....

Wing Commander Nauman Ali Khan was awarded Sitara-e-Jurat (their third highest military award and equivalent to our Vir Chakra). He flew a F-16 and shot down Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman, VrC who was flying a MiG-21 Bison.

Squadron Leader Hassan Siddiqui was awarded Tamgha-i-Jurat (their fourth highest military award. I am not sure what the Indian equivalent is). He "supposedly" shot down Avenger 1 (Su-30MKI), which promptly showed up on Oct 08, 2019 in a flypast :P

Surprising why they awarded Squadron Leader Siddiqui a medal - lower in precedence to the Sitara-e-Jurat - for "supposedly" shooting down a more prestigious target. Even they know it was a fake encounter :) It is amazing how they sleep at night with Stolen Valour.

Mind boggling to be honest.

Bishwa
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Bishwa » 18 Nov 2019 06:38

Tamgha-i-Jurat equivalent would be Vayu Sena Medal (Gallantry)


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