MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Vidur » 11 Jan 2020 10:23

I never knew of the lady till someone pointed her out a few weeks ago. Since then have done some research out of interest. She is an expert in geopolitics with a specialisation in Pakistan. Certainly not military equipment, fighter aircraft and war fighting tactics. She has zero domain expertise in the area.

I submit another expert - this lady has a Oxford PHD in Statistics and Imperial Physics degree. Why is her word less than the other lady ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8q6iF5xofyo&t=29s

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Rakesh » 11 Jan 2020 10:58

Vidur-ji, you are using logic. A concept that is lost on these two forum members.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby ArjunPandit » 11 Jan 2020 16:26

Rakesh wrote:Vidur-ji, you are using logic. A concept that is lost on these two forum members.

Rakesh ji there's no need to patronise or condescend

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby mahadevbhu » 11 Jan 2020 21:52

Post edited. User warned for repeated thread disruption. Banned for a month.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 11 Jan 2020 22:03

Vidur wrote:I never knew of the lady till someone pointed her out a few weeks ago. Since then have done some research out of interest. She is an expert in geopolitics with a specialisation in Pakistan. Certainly not military equipment, fighter aircraft and war fighting tactics. She has zero domain expertise in the area.

I submit another expert - this lady has a Oxford PHD in Statistics and Imperial Physics degree. Why is her word less than the other lady ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8q6iF5xofyo&t=29s


Sir, domain expertise apart. Many of even BRF's members forget a simple point. Agenda. We have somehow convinced ourselves these folks are genuinely interested in being neutral and objective. Most, unfortunately aren't. They carry their establishment's water, or signal their usefulness by doing such antics at specific events. Ms Fair is hardly neutral. Her stated POV has been around pushing the Viper for India. And folks expect she will acknowledge a F-16 shootdown, that too by a Bison, or appreciate Indian achievements in aerospace (she was recently cut up that India has plans for Tejas beyond Mk1/Mk1A).

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Gerard » 12 Jan 2020 01:53

From 1987. Nothing has changed.

Exclusive Friendly fire downs Pakistani F-16; U.S. in a coverup

By RICHARD SALE

WASHINGTON -- A Pakistan Air Force F-16 accidentally shot down a companion F-16 previously reported to have been hit by a Soviet-made missile last May during combat over Afghanistan -- and U.S. officials assisted in the coverup, administration officials said Saturday.

'It was pilot error,' a U.S. intelligence source said of the jet fighter's loss.

Pakistan's attempt to cover up the accident was assisted by some Pentagon and State Department officials who felt the false report of a Soviet 'kill' might help promote Pakistan's bid to acquire sophisticated U.S.-made AWACS radar airplanes, administration sources told United Press International.

However, Pakistan first concocted the story primarily to 'save face' and prevent any embarrassment of its Air Force, which has created an F-16 craze among the Pakistani people, they said.

Asked about the disclosure that the plane was downed by friendly fire, a defense official at Pakistan's Washington embassy said, 'This we do not know because we have no links with our Air Force Department.' He declined further comment.

Ken Dirken, a State Department spokesman, denied any department involvement in a coverup of the accident, arguing that the United States lacked 'independent means of confirmation.' A Pentagon official, who stuck to the original contention that the Soviets downed the plane, acknowledged receiving reports of the accident but said they were regarded as 'less credible' than Pakistan's official version.

Following the incident, administration officials quoted Pakistani counterparts as announcing that six Soviet-made Afghan aircraft entered Pakistan airspace and that two Pakistani aircraft patrolling the area chased them across the border over neighboring Afghanistan.

Pakistani military officials said one of the Afghan planes then downed the F-16 with an air-to-air missile, according to U.S. analysts.

Pakistan operates 40 F-16s which it has received under a $3.2 billion military aid plan that began in 1981.

An administration official described the aircraft as 'indisputably superior' to any comparable Soviet planes in the region. The official said Pakistan was particularly embarrassed about the accident because the F-16 has 'seized the imagination of the Pakistani people' to the extent that there are 'F-16 cafes, F-16 T-shirts and F-16 bumper stickers. You can even see F-16s on the flaps of buses in Islamabad.'

Administration officials told UPI the actual accidental shoot-down of the F-16 occurred May 1 when a pair of F-16s were flying air patrol along the hostile Afghan border.

A U.S. intelligence source said, 'The Soviets attempted deception,' using the Su-22s as decoys to lure the F-16s into pursuit and then 'ambushed them with MiGs.'

Said one, 'The Afghan pilots like to fly in trail -- in other words, two or three planes fly abreast with other planes following two to four miles behind.'

In the ensuing dogfight, an F-16 fired an AIM-9L air-to-air missile and turned, but the plane on his wing 'crossed into the missile's path' and 'simply flew into it,' administration officials said.

A U.S. analyst said, 'This isn't hearsay. Theevidence is indisputable.'

A State Department official said 'this kind of accident is not unknown to our own Air Force,' noting that at least three similar incidents had occurred during the Vietnam War involving F-4 fighter bombers.

According to Soviet-controlled Afghanistan press reports at the time, the F-16s were in pursuit of Soviet-made Su-22 fighter-bombers when they were 'jumped' -- or surprised -- by MiG-23 fighters.

The Afghan press reports simply said the Pakistani had been downed.

Administration officials said that the F-16 crashed on Afghan territory. The pilot ejected, and parachuted into Afghanistan. He later was safely returned to Pakistan by Mujahedin rebels, they said.

A U.S. intelligence source said that the accident 'is by no means' a reflection on the competence of the Pakistan Air Force whose pilots are 'excellent -- second perhaps only to Israel's in skill and capability.'

On March 30, Pakistani F-16s shot down two Soviet aircraft, a An-26 bomber and a Su-22 fighter, in air-to-air skirmishes over Pakistani territory, administration officials said. On April 16, Pakistan F-16s destroyed another Su-22.

'Most violations of Pakistan territory are very quick and very shallow. You have to be there on the spot,' administration officials said.

The officials said that there have been 497 violations of Pakistan's airspace as of July 3, exceeding the 1986 pace that resulted in a year-end total of 750 violations.

Pakistan is still talking with the United States about acquiring three Grumman E-2C Hawkeye airborne warning planes to help curb incursions by Soviet fighters from Afghanistan, but the Joint Chiefs of Staff argued that there are no Hawkeyes available and assigning any to Pakistan would lower U.S. readiness requirements, administration officials said.


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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby SSridhar » 12 Jan 2020 06:57

Gerard wrote:From 1987. Nothing has changed.

Exclusive Friendly fire downs Pakistani F-16; U.S. in a coverup

:lol:
The US has just resumed Terroristan's military training program. Now, this. Both US & Terroristan needed to preserve H&D.
But, isn't it the case that no F-16 was lost at all? What happens to that?
And, the US also 'accounted for' all the planes at one point of time, didn't they?

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Gerard » 12 Jan 2020 08:05

PAF F-16 losses we know about:

# 84606 - shot down by Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman of the IAF in his MiG-21
# 85720 - shot down by Wing Commander Amjad Javed of the PAF (he shot down his own wingman)
# 82701- bird strike
# 84607 - bird strike
# 85609 - collision with wild pig
# 84712 - pilot error - spatial disorientation
# 85721 - pilot error - spatial disorientation
# 92729 - pilot error - night training crash
# 85723 - engine failure
# 85725 - engine failure - non original part used
#92730 - pilot error - Wing Commander Noman Akram

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Vidur » 12 Jan 2020 08:46

Karan M wrote:
Vidur wrote:I never knew of the lady till someone pointed her out a few weeks ago. Since then have done some research out of interest. She is an expert in geopolitics with a specialisation in Pakistan. Certainly not military equipment, fighter aircraft and war fighting tactics. She has zero domain expertise in the area.

I submit another expert - this lady has a Oxford PHD in Statistics and Imperial Physics degree. Why is her word less than the other lady ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8q6iF5xofyo&t=29s


Sir, domain expertise apart. Many of even BRF's members forget a simple point. Agenda. We have somehow convinced ourselves these folks are genuinely interested in being neutral and objective. Most, unfortunately aren't. They carry their establishment's water, or signal their usefulness by doing such antics at specific events. Ms Fair is hardly neutral. Her stated POV has been around pushing the Viper for India. And folks expect she will acknowledge a F-16 shootdown, that too by a Bison, or appreciate Indian achievements in aerospace (she was recently cut up that India has plans for Tejas beyond Mk1/Mk1A).


Wise words. Agenda is important.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby srin » 12 Jan 2020 09:34

Sorry I'm late to the party. I finally watched the unfair video. And surprised by what we have *not* discussed here.

Did she begin her comments saying integrity is hard to find on the panel (that had ACM Dhanoa on it)? Or am I misinterpreting her words?

I'd be more convinced with her statements if she had said that the evidence was not fully convincing for the world and she has an open mind. But she says that we did not hit the targets and did not down the F16, as if she knows. Essentially calling the ACM a liar?

Not sure why she was so surly the whole time. Is it her default state?
Last edited by srin on 13 Jan 2020 07:19, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby ArjunPandit » 13 Jan 2020 06:50

Mod Note: Posting useless flame bait links and not adding value to the discussion. You have been banned for a week.
Last edited by Rakesh on 13 Jan 2020 17:50, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Please Cool Off

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby ArjunPandit » 13 Jan 2020 07:04

SSridhar wrote:
Gerard wrote:From 1987. Nothing has changed.

Exclusive Friendly fire downs Pakistani F-16; U.S. in a coverup

:lol:
The US has just resumed Terroristan's military training program. Now, this. Both US & Terroristan needed to preserve H&D.
But, isn't it the case that no F-16 was lost at all? What happens to that?
And, the US also 'accounted for' all the planes at one point of time, didn't they?

Thanks Gerard, it's a very good learning for me. Another interesting point is the extent of the breach of their sovereignty

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby ashishvikas » 17 Jan 2020 11:56

Short films on Balakot - ENDRUN

In the wee hours of 26th feb 2019 Indian warplanes were returning after conducting a pre-emptive strike on terror camps near Balakot, Pakistan unaware of the fact that they were heading into a ambush - Might be a fiction only.

Source - Twitter

https://youtu.be/zEHjMqXdlz8

[youtube]https://youtu.be/zEHjMqXdlz8[/youtube]

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby dkhare » 18 Jan 2020 01:22

Just watched parts of the Military Lit Fest video too. Something I was unaware of was (Sameer Joshi mentions just past 54:00) that there is a misconception that all AIM-120C5s were fired at D-Max1 range. He mentions that at least 2 were fired around 30 Km range and the Su-30MKIs still evaded them. This was a planned ambush - earlier shots at D-Max1 were bait and when we successfully evaded & rengaged, they used the time to move into position for the close in NEZ shots - and we still made them miss - I am in awe! Wikipedia claims C5 NEZ to be 20 Km. That would take some amazing situational awareness, extreme maneuvering, Jamming / ECM, all working well. Just shows the quality of skills, level of training and nerves of steel. You can hear that respect, pride, and emotion in Sameer Joshi's voice.

Some would question if the Su-30MKIs were within 30 Km why didn't we fire if we were fired upon. I know we have spoken about RoEs or lack of a firing solution for our R-77s - that's been discussed already. I just want to highlight that our pilots did what they needed to do - they went cold, evaded and then got back into the fight - thus denied PAF their primary objective of downing a Su-30MKI and made them miss their secondary ground target as well.

srin wrote:Sorry I'm late to the party. I finally watched the unfair video. And surprised by what we have *not* discussed here.

Did she begin her comments saying integrity is hard to find on the panel (that had ACM Dhanoa on it)? Or am I misinterpreting her words?

I'd be more convinced with her statements if she had said that the evidence was not fully convincing for the world and she has an open mind. But she says that we did not hit the targets and did not down the F16, as if she knows. Essentially calling the ACM a liar?

Not sure why she was so surly the whole time. Is it her default state?


Her demeanor aside, I believe Ms. Fair was at least right about the meeting of the National Command Authority. They seem to want to threaten nukes at a drop of a hat, so we should not read too much into them holding that meeting. What is significant is that we called their nuclear bluff anyway.
But then after that she does go on to mention that avionics experts say that "this particular MiG-21 Bison was superior in almost every respect to that particular F-16" - Wow!

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Cybaru » 18 Jan 2020 01:27

dkhare wrote:J
But then after that she does go on to mention that avionics experts say that "this particular MiG-21 Bison was superior in almost every respect to that particular F-16" - Wow!


Yep "load a Indian" and voila everything is superior!

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Shanmukh » 18 Jan 2020 01:35

Gerard wrote:PAF F-16 losses we know about:
# 85609 - collision with wild pig


This was lovely. I didn't know about it, but here is the related news link.

https://www.upi.com/Archives/1987/06/16 ... 550814400/

By the way, instead of buying the F16s, may be we should buy the wild pigs .....

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby manjgu » 18 Jan 2020 08:05

dkhare wrote:Just watched parts of the Military Lit Fest video too. Something I was unaware of was (Sameer Joshi mentions just past 54:00) that there is a misconception that all AIM-120C5s were fired at D-Max1 range. He mentions that at least 2 were fired around 30 Km range and the Su-30MKIs still evaded them. This was a planned ambush - earlier shots at D-Max1 were bait and when we successfully evaded & rengaged, they used the time to move into position for the close in NEZ shots - and we still made them miss - I am in awe! Wikipedia claims C5 NEZ to be 20 Km. That would take some amazing situational awareness, extreme maneuvering, Jamming / ECM, all working well. Just shows the quality of skills, level of training and nerves of steel. You can hear that respect, pride, and emotion in Sameer Joshi's voice.

Some would question if the Su-30MKIs were within 30 Km why didn't we fire if we were fired upon. I know we have spoken about RoEs or lack of a firing solution for our R-77s - that's been discussed already. I just want to highlight that our pilots did what they needed to do - they went cold, evaded and then got back into the fight - thus denied PAF their primary objective of downing a Su-30MKI and made them miss their secondary ground target as well.

srin wrote:Sorry I'm late to the party. I finally watched the unfair video. And surprised by what we have *not* discussed here.

Did she begin her comments saying integrity is hard to find on the panel (that had ACM Dhanoa on it)? Or am I misinterpreting her words?

I'd be more convinced with her statements if she had said that the evidence was not fully convincing for the world and she has an open mind. But she says that we did not hit the targets and did not down the F16, as if she knows. Essentially calling the ACM a liar?

Not sure why she was so surly the whole time. Is it her default state?


Her demeanor aside, I believe Ms. Fair was at least right about the meeting of the National Command Authority. They seem to want to threaten nukes at a drop of a hat, so we should not read too much into them holding that meeting. What is significant is that we called their nuclear bluff anyway.
But then after that she does go on to mention that avionics experts say that "this particular MiG-21 Bison was superior in almost every respect to that particular F-16" - Wow!
... how were the 3 amraam s fired at extreme range acted as baits?

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 18 Jan 2020 08:08

dkhare wrote:Just watched parts of the Military Lit Fest video too. Something I was unaware of was (Sameer Joshi mentions just past 54:00) that there is a misconception that all AIM-120C5s were fired at D-Max1 range. He mentions that at least 2 were fired around 30 Km range and the Su-30MKIs still evaded them. This was a planned ambush - earlier shots at D-Max1 were bait and when we successfully evaded & rengaged, they used the time to move into position for the close in NEZ shots - and we still made them miss - I am in awe! Wikipedia claims C5 NEZ to be 20 Km. That would take some amazing situational awareness, extreme maneuvering, Jamming / ECM, all working well. Just shows the quality of skills, level of training and nerves of steel. You can hear that respect, pride, and emotion in Sameer Joshi's voice.


DKhare to reiterate Sameer's point and what Vidur brought up and Deejay also reiterated - this was not the F-16s moving into position for a second set of close in NEZ shots. It was a Su-30, i.e. Avenger 1's crew racing in, to get their shots in, all the way, approaching AMRAAM's NEZ level envelope. Now you can see why Sameer reiterated the courage and elan of our Su-30 crew and what made the IAF (and the Flanker) so exceptional. He didn't have the time or the right tools (e.g. longer ranged AAMs) to get his hit in, but his aggression made the Vipers break. They hadn't anticipated a Su-30 would pull this on them. The missile weaponry needs an update, but the baseline platform has incredible potential, persistence and our crews are something else.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby fanne » 18 Jan 2020 08:53

could it be that we also did fire R-77 but no one is talking about it (no one has denied it). If we really came close to 30 KM (and if Sameer Joshi says we did then we did), ROE would have been out of window as soon as AIM was fired (unless we really have a useless process, where request went from plane to command to IAS babu to PMO and then back up, whatever the chain of command is). Maybe R-77s also missed as did the AIM. We are not talking (what is there to talk) and TSP are keeping up the façade that IAF was unable to even fire AA missiles.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 18 Jan 2020 09:02

Wait for Sameers article to clarify.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 18 Jan 2020 12:28

I think people are forgetting a few things that happenned on 27-Feb-19

1) Indian leadership did not want further escalation after 26 Feb 19 response to Pulwama bombing which started the whole cycle.
2) There were civilian aircraft flying around.

1 and 2 why ROE in place.

Now try playing even video games with fighters or think logically.

PAF has temporary numerical superiority, ROE says no BVR and accidentally Iran style downing of civilian airliners around Lahore, Islamabad, Sialkot- all airports in this airspace.

In come the Mirage 5 drop H-4 missiles(called as RAAD missile) and JF-17 8 83 REK bombs - all miss but some come close

A Few F-16's and Su-30MKI are flying subsonic CAP, now its not a war situation but in come 2 F16's at high supersonic speed and launch 2 Amraams at D-max 1. What should the Su-30 MKI- they have to take tactical action, avoid these missiles by diving to the ground hoping the seeker losses the aircraft in ground clutter or outrun them in Indian territory. while they were doing this a few things happened which I based on what I have read is as follows (the whole thing is probably over in about 5 minutes)

1) Some of the F-16's got into a better tactical position to launch more Amraam's at the Su-30 MKI's
2) 3 F-16's came to deliver LGB's at Brigade HQ Nowshera, they dropped 1 and turned tail when warned of AEW off approaching Mig 21 Bisions
3) the Mig 21 Bisons catch up and get 1 f-16 over POK and turn to engage some more F-16 in a South westerly direction
4) The lead Mig 21 Bison is hit by an F-16 Amraam and the Wingman is ordered to get back from POK
5) A F-16 comes at full speed from the West- South West direction and launches another Amraam the 2nd Mig 21 Bison
6) In all this the greatest Tragedy a spyder SAM system in Budgam shoots one of our own Mi-17 Helicopter

Now the Situation changes more IAF aircraft in SU-30MKI's and Mig 29's from Adampur are coming in the 2 Su-30MKI's Avenger 1 and 2 dodging Amraams are back in the fight. , all PAF aircraft retreat to their bases.

The Pakistani Army realizes that they are on their own and thier T-80's charge from their barracks onto Civilian roads to mix with civilian traffic around Sialkot believing as promised the PAF has hit Indian army targets and delivered Indian casualties.

It is clear Pakis came with Intent to hit the Indian Army and take down a few Su-30MKI, we unfortunately lost a Mig 21 Bison in the process. The lost an F-16 and understand Raad and 83 MEK are not very useful in war i.e Mirage and JF-17 fleet. So after 27 Feb-19 rather than doing flight demonstrations of bravery PAf is not only busy making big budget propaganda films and clearly something which was important enough was hit on Muzaffarabad and Chakoti area that the MEA decided to remove these targets in its briefing(all media sources got this unofficially from AIr HQ)- probably why PAF had to respond- not just Balakot pig sty.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Rsatchi » 18 Jan 2020 13:44

Aditya_V wrote:I think people are forgetting a few things that happenned on 27-Feb-19

1) Indian leadership did not want further escalation after 26 Feb 19 response to Pulwama bombing which started the whole cycle.
2) There were civilian aircraft flying around.

PAF has temporary numerical superiority, ROE says no BVR and accidentally Iran style downing of civilian airliners around Lahore, Islamabad, Sialkot- all airports in this airspace.

The Pakistani Army realizes that they are on their own and thier T-80's charge from their barracks onto Civilian roads to mix with civilian traffic around Sialkot believing as promised the PAF has hit Indian army targets and delivered Indian casualties.

something which was important enough was hit on Muzaffarabad and Chakoti area that the MEA decided to remove these targets in its briefing(all media sources got this unofficially from AIr HQ)- probably why PAF had to respond- not just Balakot pig sty.

Chetakji
This and the recent Eyeranian shooting:
Reveals, me thinks two things:
1.The Malsic are not to be trusted during military engagements to stick to 'Geneva Conventions' so to speak and wouldn't hesitate to target/sacrifice civilians deliberately/calculated gamble
2. The ROE's are not to be followed with when dealing with 'Dhimmi' folks
And we should take these two things into consideration for any future 'war game' scenarios or 'limited engagements'

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya G » 18 Jan 2020 16:07

I think its a mystery as to what ROEs were being followed by IAF fighters flying in the air at the time of the dogfight. If ROE was sacrosant then why did Abhinandan go across and engage the F-16s? If the enemy is trying to kill me with AAMs then will a soldier hold back? I dont think so. I think Sukhois would have gone for the kill but timely down hill skiing by PAF saved them.

I certainly feel ROEs may have held back further action after dogfight was over once we knew they had our PoW and political directive would have been to control further escalation. After all we were the aggressors in the episode and political aim was accomplished the previous night.

Aditya_V wrote:I think people are forgetting a few things that happenned on 27-Feb-19

1) Indian leadership did not want further escalation after 26 Feb 19 response to Pulwama bombing which started the whole cycle.
2) There were civilian aircraft flying around.

1 and 2 why ROE in place.

Now try playing even video games with fighters or think logically.

PAF has temporary numerical superiority, ROE says no BVR and accidentally Iran style downing of civilian airliners around Lahore, Islamabad, Sialkot- all airports in this airspace.

In come the Mirage 5 drop H-4 missiles(called as RAAD missile) and JF-17 8 83 REK bombs - all miss but some come close

A Few F-16's and Su-30MKI are flying subsonic CAP, now its not a war situation but in come 2 F16's at high supersonic speed and launch 2 Amraams at D-max 1. What should the Su-30 MKI- they have to take tactical action, avoid these missiles by diving to the ground hoping the seeker losses the aircraft in ground clutter or outrun them in Indian territory. while they were doing this a few things happened which I based on what I have read is as follows (the whole thing is probably over in about 5 minutes)

1) Some of the F-16's got into a better tactical position to launch more Amraam's at the Su-30 MKI's
2) 3 F-16's came to deliver LGB's at Brigade HQ Nowshera, they dropped 1 and turned tail when warned of AEW off approaching Mig 21 Bisions
3) the Mig 21 Bisons catch up and get 1 f-16 over POK and turn to engage some more F-16 in a South westerly direction
4) The lead Mig 21 Bison is hit by an F-16 Amraam and the Wingman is ordered to get back from POK
5) A F-16 comes at full speed from the West- South West direction and launches another Amraam the 2nd Mig 21 Bison
6) In all this the greatest Tragedy a spyder SAM system in Budgam shoots one of our own Mi-17 Helicopter

Now the Situation changes more IAF aircraft in SU-30MKI's and Mig 29's from Adampur are coming in the 2 Su-30MKI's Avenger 1 and 2 dodging Amraams are back in the fight. , all PAF aircraft retreat to their bases.

The Pakistani Army realizes that they are on their own and thier T-80's charge from their barracks onto Civilian roads to mix with civilian traffic around Sialkot believing as promised the PAF has hit Indian army targets and delivered Indian casualties.

It is clear Pakis came with Intent to hit the Indian Army and take down a few Su-30MKI, we unfortunately lost a Mig 21 Bison in the process. The lost an F-16 and understand Raad and 83 MEK are not very useful in war i.e Mirage and JF-17 fleet. So after 27 Feb-19 rather than doing flight demonstrations of bravery PAf is not only busy making big budget propaganda films and clearly something which was important enough was hit on Muzaffarabad and Chakoti area that the MEA decided to remove these targets in its briefing(all media sources got this unofficially from AIr HQ)- probably why PAF had to respond- not just Balakot pig sty.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Larry Walker » 18 Jan 2020 16:26

is it possible that Balakot strike happened earlier in the night and once the returning Mirages were engaged by Paki SAM's - follow-on raids were launched on other 2 locations in retaliation of engaging IAF ? so by morning 3 places struck overall - though later they dropped reference of Chakoti and Muzafarabad

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby mody » 18 Jan 2020 18:53

What is perplexing is the performance or the lack thereof of the R-77 missile. The seeker is from Agat. Should be the same or better then the one used with the Astra missile. The solid fuel rocket of the missile, should not be a problem. The radar of the plane isn't a problem either. Then why is the performance of the R77 found to be wanting?
The RSTV security scan on the balakot strike and 27h Feb, has mention that the Mig-21 Bison were armed with R73 and R27 missiles. Are the Bisons equipped with R-27? I thought only the Mig-29s and Su-30s carried the R27.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby fanne » 18 Jan 2020 19:18

Mig 21 had r77 million photos n napaki debris confirms that

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 18 Jan 2020 19:49

I think the F16 kill was with IR lock which not give the Pakistani bogie a RWR warning that's why it was used, plus in the Mig 21 Bison the Koypo radar has to be small to fit in the nose of aircraft so its scan angles are limited. The Su 30 Mki did not have a real chance of using R77 as once the PAF fired thier missiles and they had missed, the PAF had retreated well into Thier Territory.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby SidSoma » 18 Jan 2020 21:36

Aditya_V wrote:I think the F16 kill was with IR lock which not give the Pakistani bogie a RWR warning that's why it was used, plus in the Mig 21 Bison the Koypo radar has to be small to fit in the nose of aircraft so its scan angles are limited. The Su 30 Mki did not have a real chance of using R77 as once the PAF fired thier missiles and they had missed, the PAF had retreated well into Thier Territory.


If Rambha was dancing as close as 30Km from F16, why wasn't R77 launched. There is so much that is fogged

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Sanju » 18 Jan 2020 21:56

Regarding Chakothi and Muzzaffarabad strike, the then Def. Min. Mrs. Sitharaman, clearly stated that, at this juncture the GOI doesn't want to reveal any details and no questions to be asked on this topic. This was in a Press Conference that was telecast live.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 18 Jan 2020 21:57

Cause 30km when the opponent is in a better tactical position is just waste of a missile. How many Airforces have missed with 6 Amraams in 5 minutes? Never happened even in the Kosovo conflict?

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Rishi » 18 Jan 2020 22:37

Are the citations for the VrC out?

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby nam » 18 Jan 2020 22:50

It has always been in my mind that our Yehudi friends would have shared some of their Aim120 blunting ECM with us. May be they have.

After all they have to deal with Aim120 armed Egypt, Jordan, Saudis etc..

Other BVR tactics would have been perfected by working with Singapore F16.

Now time to offer the Burmese airforce some training space.

Regarding the 30KM, I would think Su30 went in close and high to get a confirmed kill. Su30 would be able to fly higher than F16 and that is a distinct advantage to hit the F16.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 19 Jan 2020 02:00

mody wrote:What is perplexing is the performance or the lack thereof of the R-77 missile. The seeker is from Agat. Should be the same or better then the one used with the Astra missile. The solid fuel rocket of the missile, should not be a problem. The radar of the plane isn't a problem either. Then why is the performance of the R77 found to be wanting?
The RSTV security scan on the balakot strike and 27h Feb, has mention that the Mig-21 Bison were armed with R73 and R27 missiles. Are the Bisons equipped with R-27? I thought only the Mig-29s and Su-30s carried the R27.


The R-77 and Astra do not share the same propulsion or aero design.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby abhik » 19 Jan 2020 10:24

Another data point re R77/27 performance is the noise on ordering i-derby immediately after. How much was dalal's voice how much was actually from the IAF is open for debate though.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby srai » 19 Jan 2020 12:06

mody wrote:What is perplexing is the performance or the lack thereof of the R-77 missile. The seeker is from Agat. Should be the same or better then the one used with the Astra missile. The solid fuel rocket of the missile, should not be a problem. The radar of the plane isn't a problem either. Then why is the performance of the R77 found to be wanting?
...

Same question could be asked about the AMRAAM C5 :wink:

5 misses for the AMRAAM! In the same manner, R-77 could have been launched from further out, but they would have missed too.

The one AMRAAM that shot down the MiG-21 was launched from less than 10km.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 19 Jan 2020 12:30

nam wrote:It has always been in my mind that our Yehudi friends would have shared some of their Aim120 blunting ECM with us. May be they have.

After all they have to deal with Aim120 armed Egypt, Jordan, Saudis etc..

Other BVR tactics would have been perfected by working with Singapore F16.

Now time to offer the Burmese airforce some training space.

Regarding the 30KM, I would think Su30 went in close and high to get a confirmed kill. Su30 would be able to fly higher than F16 and that is a distinct advantage to hit the F16.


Your forgetting that Su 30 MKI where taking action to dodge the earlier Amraams with 4-8 F16s to 2 Su30MKIs, in such a situation 2 more F16 with height advantage wasted 1 or 2 more Amraams and then scooted. After this with more Su 30s and Mig 29 coming in all PAF aircraft retreated.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 19 Jan 2020 12:34

The IAF would not have ordered more R77 R27( cost effective for the Chinese drones Pakis were happily sending and losing in Mar 19) and R73's if these performed soo badlyas reported in some Media, I guess some commission agents a marketing opportunity. We don't know whether RVV sd,BD and MD tested by IAF in Jul 19 were ordered. One suspects after 27 Feb when PAF has shown its hand the IAF will now have some more surprises for them.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Rahul M » 19 Jan 2020 16:18

@Aditya G, there's no confusion regarding SOP. After the KAL 007 fiasco, fighter pilots do not generally shoot without visual confirmation, not when there are civilian airliners in the air. No sane AF wants collateral damage. Abhinandan had visual confirmation of his quarry and I would wager the sukhois were trying the same when they were aggressively gunning for the F16's.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby fanne » 20 Jan 2020 04:14

Sameer Joshi has an explanation today (and he is himself a fighter pilot so he knows how they think, against us arm chair wallas).
R-77 were not fired because -

2 reasons! The 1st which everyone misses - We had 4 HiTech ac defending the valley against 16 + F16s. So important they hold ground as DCA CAP against further anticipated PAF action - which they did! 2nd was to conserve missiles and fire only when sure to get a kill within range!

https://twitter.com/joe_sameer/status/1 ... 5328821248

My comments - They were only 2 Sukhois (2 M2K was further away in a different sector) - I would put that they were carrying each at least 4 R-73 and maybe 2-4 R-77 (among other possible missiles). So between the two Sukhois they had 4-8 R-77 (You just do not carry a million dollar missile for fun, from literature, having flown 3 combat sorties, these missiles have to be retired or serviced/overhauled). They would not have fired it unless they had a good pk. The worst scenario is that you fire most of your missiles at less pk, enemy survives and charges forward and you have nothing to defend yourself or the ground target with. That may explain why R-77 were not fired. Plus the primary mission of the plane was cap and not dog fight (2 MKI dog fight with 2 F-16, you leave other enemy plane to sneak through and attack ground targets).

If we had more air asset, things had been different. TSPAF being the aggressor had the luxury of surprise and numbers (as we had the day before). Unlike TSPAF being totally clues less on feb 26 (we achieved complete surprise). On 27th, we must planned a 24/7 cap. With that in mind, we could not have had 100 planes in the air at any given time, perhaps 6 was all that could be had on 24/7 basis. TSPAF planned well, came at the fag end when SU 30 MKI was to be rotated out (low on fuel), came with huge number 24 plane (16 of their F-16 - 22% of their f-16 holding). There were also Indian civilian planes in the area precluding us from BVR shots (supposedly). Still we manage to hold on our own. Shot a f-16 for a Mig 21 and all their payloads missed targets (don't know if that was deliberate or not)

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 20 Jan 2020 11:07

And to add how the PAF retreated once 2 More Su 30 MKI's and 2 more Mig 29s started to come into the area- they still had more Amraams but they realized 4 Su-30s plus 2 Mig 29;s would not be worth it even with 8-11 F-16's in the air already and BVR sabres out.

They shot the first Amraams when the Su30MKI were at Subsonic cap with good tactical postion, when the 2 Su30MKi dodged these and tried to come back they shot 3 more- after this when more Su 30 and Mig 29 came in they tucked tail and retreated, if were in the mood to escalate we could have caused serious damage to the PA then.

I think the Pakistani Army is also thankful PAF could not our military targets with H-4 Raad, 8 REWK bombs and 1 LGB- thats a lot of expensive ordinance.


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