MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

[Roop]

... But it means 2 things...

Yes, of course. I agree.

[kancha]

Well said. People want at a 0% attrition rate. Thank goodness the IAF did not lose a Mirage 2000 or a Su-30MKI. Folks in here would get an asthma attack.

When people were hyperventilating here and elsewhere about one Mig-21 being shot down (with pilot safe but pow), I always wondered what would have happened to them if they had been alive on 1st September 1965. 3 Pilots KIA on first day of action and the entire Vampire fleet of 130 aircraft withdrawn from frontline combat right at the start of the war because of obsolescence

Unrelated, but thought I might as well share here.
The IAF actually raised an adhoc unit named No 121 Sqn (Ad-hoc) and utilised the Vampires of the Fighter Training Wing (which later grew into the current day TACDE) for PR in daylight and in interdiction role at night!
These roles were mostly Low-Level Night Interdiction of road and rail lines of communication, fuel storage dumps etc.
I stumbled upon this piece of history while reading 'Moonlight Marauders' by Teshter Master.
A highly recommended book. Full of gems from our military history!

[Aditya_V]

Just putting the IAF presentation of F-16 shot down, it is mostly likely that Group Captain knew the risks with F-16 Barcap on but took on the F-16D with Sniper POD(with experienced pilots- there was no other reason why 2 seat F-16 D was there) providing targeting info to save Indian Army lives, he was not reckless he probably knew he was very close to the LOC and RWR would have been buzzing but did intervene with the high risk of being shot down to save Indian soldiers lives.

No wonder the brave man was given a special award by the president recently, I guess what he did not only shocked the Pakis but the Americans who gave award to their personal for keeping the loss a secret. I have feeling the Su-30 dodging Amraams and MIG 21-Bison taking out F-16 with multiple F-16's on BARCAP has come as a surprise.

[Aditya G]

Weather 350 or 0 jehadis got killed does not really mater.

FWIW this fellow (the PAF pilot) is not saying that 350 jihadis were killed in Balakot, he is claiming that the PAF strike on Feb. 27 caused 350 Indian Army deaths. Of course his claim is bullcr@p.

Let me assume their stated mission on face value, i.e. they wanted to deliver only a message and intentionally missed Indian targets. Why did this pilot then lie? He could have repeated the official position. How can anybody take PAF seriously if lying culture is institutionalized for decades. From MM Alam to Balakot nothing has changed there.

[ramana]

I am sure India can identify all the dregs killed in Balakot. Just not the right time to reveal.

[Rakesh]

https://twitter.com/RealAirPower1/statu ... E0Z7Pi1AdQ ---> An Indian Air Force Su-30MKI taking-off in all its glory. Notice the wingtip mounted SAP-518 jamming pods? It's one of the most advanced systems of its kind in the world, designed to jam targeting radars and spoof incoming missiles away from the aircraft.

[Rakesh]

This is how PAF's supposed exploits go through the filter of truth as time passes. Well known for avid PAF history watchers.

See the tweet below. Lets see who can catch the error

https://twitter.com/Talha_Khokhar1/stat ... ByQJ6QmBfw ---> PAF's F-16BM ELMU-III Block 20, assigned to the 39th Tactical Wing’s No. 11 Squadron 'Arrows' , Southern Air Command PAF. This aircraft successfully hit an Indian Air Force Su-30MKI on the 27th of February 2019 with an AIM-120C-5 AMRAAM, disabling it from combat.

[Aditya_V]

1) This aircraft was mentioned as a single seater in PAF in its citation/ award to Shahid Siddiqui, was the award given to another squadron

2) Block 20 cannot fire Amraam , officially the squadron flies Block 15 MLU aircraft.

3) What is" disabling aircraft from combat" mean , missile missed but did a mission kill for the Su 30?

I am bit clueless, please tell us the error.

[Prem Kumar]

A useful Tweet thread: https://twitter.com/cruindggn/status/15 ... 6821729280

Shows how the US and Turkey hushed up the fact that the latter's F-16 was shot down by a Greek Mirage-2000 for 16 years. Incident happened in 1996 and acknowledged in 2012

The US is like Pakis or the Chinese. They will go to great lengths to cover-up their screw-ups to maintain H&D

[Rakesh]

Prem, billions of dollars are at stake when US-built aircraft are shot down by a non US-built aircraft. LM will watch her fortunes dwindle with the F-16, if such news are publicly acknowledged by the GOTUS. So it is best kept hush-hush.

One positive news about the entire MiG-21 and F-16 episode, is the IAF wants nothing to do with LM's offering in the MRFA contest. They are stating that the F-16/F-21 is not desirable, because they shot one down in PoK. Even prior to this incident, they were not in favour of the F-16.

Also see below...

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_ ... sn=wiwspmo

https://twitter.com/kiranraghu/status/1 ... I00tQ&s=19

[Ankit Desai]

Sameer Joshi: https://twitter.com/joe_sameer/status/1 ... 4593762304

" 2 Su-30MKIs fm 15 squadron duelled with 8 F-16s on 27 Feb 2019 & held their own. The #Avenger formation crew have a beer bash every time the #PAF ceremonial parade honours its fake MKI kill at the #OpSwiftRetort memorial in Sargodha AFB, hoping for an invite to attend one day "

-Ankit

[Rakesh]

This is how truth and lies live in perfect sync with each other in the Pakistan Air Force. Having written an article on the MM Alam's supposed exploits on 07 Sept 1965, the below is not surprising. The lies and subterfuge continues.

First claim was that no F-16s were used in Operation Swift Retreat. When the wreckage of the AIM-120 AMRAAM was displayed in New Delhi, then shift to the idea that it does not matter if the enemy slaps you with the right hand or the left. Also state that the PAF shot down two fighters - one MiG-21 and one Su-30MKI. Now the latest claim is below. It does not matter if the AMRAAM found its mark or not, the fact that the TFTA pilot in the cockpit of the F-16, fired the AMRAAM with Allah on his lips, it counts as a kill. Pakistan Paindabad!

https://twitter.com/FalconSyndicate/sta ... XPh8Q9Wwug --->

[Larry Walker]

Yeh Pakis sach-much chutiya hain. If this joker was guiding AMRAAM till the end-game they could have easily produced visual proof from flight computers after they had admitted using F-16. But if all they have is a data feed back from AMRAAM and no backup data from flight computer means they turned cold after firing and once that happens AMRAAM can also get fooled by a chaffe cloud or electronic jamming to believe it has found its mark to activate proximity fuse. Inka bravado is beyond imagination.

[ramana]

That Tufail is a too-fail. Tells a lot of H&D lies.

[vimal]

He is covering all his bases. It’s like Americans say coulda, shoulda, woulda

[ashishvikas]

Watch "The Story of a 60 Year Old FALCON SLAYER (DCS World)" on YouTube

[Avid]

https://twitter.com/RealAirPower1/statu ... E0Z7Pi1AdQ ---> An Indian Air Force Su-30MKI taking-off in all its glory. Notice the wingtip mounted SAP-518 jamming pods? It's one of the most advanced systems of its kind in the world, designed to jam targeting radars and spoof incoming missiles away from the aircraft.

Rakesh-ji, thank you for educating the uneducated

In researching, I found a IAF RFI for replacement of the SAP-518.
The RFI closed Nov 22(?)
https://indianairforce.nic.in/wp-conten ... RDWARE.pdf

[Luxtor]

If LM & GOTUS have been so adament about providing F-16s over the many decades to the pukis, it is understandable that India doesn't even want to come anywhere near touching the F-16 for its own use. So that makes sense but why would India still provide aid and comfort to LM by having procured C-130s in such numbers and still more maybe in the pipeline? There should be a blanket boycot of all things LM. Only then they will get it. Even going as far as to cover up a puki F-16 being shot down by an IAF's lowly MiG-21 but a brilliant pilot in Abinandan, is going too far. They don't think that military people around world can't figure out what actually happend? Maybe people don't know, they only know what they've been told in that the F-16 is invulnerable, it has never been lost in combat ever.

[Prem Kumar]

X-Post from the Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019 thread....

The question can be rephrased in connection with the modern high off boresight CCM missiles as well.

The answer is, with the advent of modern BVR. Situational awareness, EW, low observability and agility are important in order to survive a BVR shot.

However, once merge happens, everyone dies equally, when both sides have modern CCM.

Think Abhinandan and his victory.

I don't remember what actually brought him down. But he killed the F16. Because he had modern BVR as well as modern CCM missiles and he was an experienced pilot.

His plane was downed by an AMRAAM fired by the wingman of the F-16 that he took down

Ironically, the more stealthy platforms become (due to VLO and EW) and the lower the tech-gap between adversaries, the higher the chances that they will end up in a dogfight. This will be even more so in the Himalayas

Which is why we must not only increase the tech-gap between us and Pakis but also invest in modern CCMs (which we are doing with the ASRAAM standardization - one of the sensible decisions)

[Aditya_V]

if we are discussing the events of 27 Feb 19, please also discuss the dodging of 5 Amraams by Su-30 MKI avenger -1, which involved jamming and Maneuverability. The last Amraam Fired by the Siddiqui guy was fired pretty close with F-16 hiding below the Pir panjals, the fact that the missile missed from well within the no escape zone shocked the PAF.

[Prem Kumar]

So, did the Siddiqui guy get a lock on the Su-30 MKI when he launched his AMRAAM? But it was defeated subsequently?

[Aditya_V]

We really dont know, there is still a lot of Info which is not in public domain, name of Paf pilot who died, what was the Aircraft serial No etc. Why was 1 of the 6 PAF F-16 Block 52 there in the first place, was it carrying the Sniper pod to target and because it was taken out the 3 LGB's missed? Why did the Mirage V launched H 4 Bombs missed, why did the JF-17 launch only dumb bombs with MK 83 REK? How many Amraams where Launched at the Mig 21 Bisons.

Why did IAF sources change from 3 targets on 26 Feb 19 to only Balakote Target after MEA called it a "Non Military" strike, what was Muzaraffabad and Chakoti area which not fit the "Non Military" definition?

[Pratyush]

Does it matter?

No kill happened.

That is what matters.

[Aditya_V]

Does it matter?

No kill happened.

That is what matters.

The question is the requirement of Maneuverability in the era BVR missiles, the answer based 27 Feb 19 , yes very much.

[MeshaVishwas]

Interesting talk here by Shiv Aroor.
He thinks Bison downed the Bandar and not the F-16s.
I think he is wrong.
FF to 27 minutes.

[Aditya_V]

IAF has been pretty clear on what was shot down from day 1, plus see DOc SHivji videos from POK, many of which were taken down by google as it compromised the official position

[sudhan]

This is how truth and lies live in perfect sync with each other in the Pakistan Air Force. Having written an article on the MM Alam's supposed exploits on 07 Sept 1965, the below is not surprising. The lies and subterfuge continues.

(Apologies for quoting a very old post)

'Missile flight data fed back to the mission computer' -- What the heck is he talking about?

Does he want us to believe that the AMRAAM sends back a "SU-30 destroyed, AoA!" ?

The only way currently possible (that I know of) to know that the target has been hit is to see your target distintegrating on Radar / Enemy radar emissions going dark (also AWACS can see this better).

There is a chance he refers to the notification stating the fired missile switching to Active guidance (going 'pitbull').. if he relies on that to assume the missile hit, then that is a load of camel dung..

[Rakesh]

Balakot Strike & Abhinandan's Return: The Tense Two Days Recalled

[SriKumar]

Imran Khan, the Pakistani Vazir-e-azam who had Abhinandan in his custody and in jail, is himself now in a jail 5 years later. Wheels of fate.

[Manish_P]

Imran Khan, the Pakistani Vazir-e-azam who had Abhinandan in his custody and in jail, is himself now in a jail 5 years later. Wheels of fate.

While the statement is factually true, we must not forget that Imran was just the front. The Pak fauj was and is still in control.

[SriKumar]

Yep, I forgot. How did you know.

[Manish_P]

Yep, I forgot. How did you know.

I know you didn't forget.

The Paki standard cycle is 'get selected>loot, till allowed>scoot to UK, if allowed>return to get selected'.

This happens irrespective of whether there is a war or not

It's not fate

[Aditya_V]

Any truth to the names floating around Twitter, Shiv Shastry has released a video with names on how his Daughter and wife were treated.

Clearly the USA also which knew of the shoot down a few hours after it has chosen to keep quiet.

Now it is time to acknowledge the sacrifices of the F-16 pilot (Dusra Pilot) Wing Commander Shehnawaz Sabban.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/clary_co/status/1762537486616547412?s=20 ---> It has been 1,790 days since Lara Seligman reported that the US had counted all Pakistani F-16s and found none missing. There have been no contrary reports, despite other leaks relating to Pakistan's F-16s in the intervening years.

https://x.com/SirJambavan/status/176259 ... 30633?s=20 ---> US tanks get mauled in Russian-Ukranian war and the video gets taken down by Instagram. For posting this message, the account got suspended. Clary here would have us believe that the US is being truthful when they count F-16s.

https://x.com/cookiec75190643/status/17 ... 17568?s=20 ---> The US is in the myth-making business:

1) Founding myth
2) Frontier myth
3) Shining City upon a Hill myth
4) New World myth
5) Land Of The Free myth
6) Our Weapons Don't Get Destroyed myth

[Rakesh]

VIDEO: https://x.com/Samarth19567493/status/17 ... 84006?s=20 ---> Pakistanis often claim that their beloved DGISPR's claim of 2 pilots being in custody was due to "fog of war." But in his interview dating March 6th, he repeats the same line - "Ek pilot unki death hui, dusra pilot hamari giraft mein tha jisko release kardiya gaya." Source - Dunya news interview of DGISPR dating March 6th.