MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Bishwa · Post by **Bishwa** » 18 Nov 2019 06:45

manjgu wrote:2) if u read tufail's post, he says PAF was not authorised to engage IAF as long as IAF did not cross the LOC/border.

Same "Tu Fail" says IAF crossed 24KM into POK during Kargil one time.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 19 Nov 2019 09:35

Bishwa wrote:
manjgu wrote:2) if u read tufail's post, he says PAF was not authorised to engage IAF as long as IAF did not cross the LOC/border.
Same "Tu Fail" says IAF crossed 24KM into POK during Kargil one time.

and one time IAF crossed 60km into pakistan on 26th feb..so ?

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 12 Dec 2019 14:51

Interesting Looks like Pakis had to use F-16 which clearly indicates there are huge shortcomings in the JF-17 and also they moved them to AFB Murid etc and did not operate from Sargodha and Jacocabad where they were Authorized from

https://www.usnews.com/news/world-repor ... ment-shows

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/wor ... 484521.cms

Addressed to the head of the Pakistani air force, Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan, the letter began by relaying the State Department's confirmation that Pakistan had moved the F-16s and accompanying American-made missiles to unapproved forward operating bases in defiance of its agreement with the U.S. Using diplomatic language, Thompson, who has since left government, warned the Pakistanis that their behavior risked allowing these weapons to fall into the hands of malign actors and "could undermine our shared security platforms and infrastructures."

I guess US is more worried that next time there is a Bin Laden type operation there own Helos may be shot down by an F-16 from unauthorized location.

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 12 Dec 2019 18:18

^^as expected no mention about the missing f16

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 12 Dec 2019 22:34

apart from shortcomings of their JF17 it also shows how hardpressed will PAF be in a full on shooting match !!

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 13 Dec 2019 02:48

Aditya_V wrote:Interesting Looks like Pakis had to use F-16 which clearly indicates there are huge shortcomings in the JF-17 and also they moved them to AFB Murid etc and did not operate from Sargodha and Jacocabad where they were Authorized from

Well everyone knows that F-16s are better than JF-17, most of all the PAF. The JF-17 is their cheap fighter to make the squadron numbers (much like Tejas was intended to be for ours), but it is not their aircraft of choice for high profile missions. It doesn't mean there were "huge shortcomings" in JF-17 - that would be a mistake to assume just based on this report.

Aditya_V wrote: https://www.usnews.com/news/world-repor ... ment-shows

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/wor ... 484521.cms

Addressed to the head of the Pakistani air force, Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan, the letter began by relaying the State Department's confirmation that Pakistan had moved the F-16s and accompanying American-made missiles to unapproved forward operating bases in defiance of its agreement with the U.S. Using diplomatic language, Thompson, who has since left government, warned the Pakistanis that their behavior risked allowing these weapons to fall into the hands of malign actors and "could undermine our shared security platforms and infrastructures."
I guess US is more worried that next time there is a Bin Laden type operation there own Helos may be shot down by an F-16 from unauthorized location.

I don't think we should read too much into this. The State Deptt knows fully well that PAF will use American weaponry for a war with India. There's no Taliban Air Force that the F-16s are shooting down with their sidewinders. The Balakot incident happened in Feb, this letter was written in August. If State Deptt was truly concerned about the violation of agreements, it would have issued a strong statement a day after the incident. This letter is just to create a figleaf for themselves since GoI had always told State Deptt that the F-16s would be used against India.

https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/09IS ... 586_a.html
"In post's view, preserving the F-16 program, which is the flagship symbol of post 9/11 bilateral re-engagement, is critical to our goals of .. buying time to deter escalation of possible any Indo-Pak conflict."

VKumar · Post by **VKumar** » 14 Dec 2019 00:59

Are there no US technicians or supervisors present at every airbase having F16? Aren't they supposed to immediately inform their superiors?

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 14 Dec 2019 08:09

VKumar wrote:Are there no US technicians or supervisors present at every airbase having F16? Aren't they supposed to immediately inform their superiors?

They are there and 1 of them got an award, USA knew within minutes/hours that a F16 went down.

Regarding JF17 see Gafoora tweets- the Pakistanis desperately wanted to show case the JF 17. if JF 17 has capability to drop smart munitions and fire BVR missiles, PAF would sprayed politically and monetarily cheaper Chinese missiles and bombs not risked F16s to come to the LOC and drop a LGB.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 14 Dec 2019 11:58

i think they are electronically tagged as well...like a RFID...are all planes accounted for... have all sheeps come back to the farm !! but if the planes were diverted to other bases, they would not have come to know immediately. AdityaV...what was the award for? ( for reporting a missing F16?)

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 14 Dec 2019 22:44

This is the video of the Military Literature Festival. Three thoroughbreds and two donkeys on stage starting from the 1 hour 6 past, I leave it to the audience here to figure out which is which. Very easy to do so.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... =emb_title

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 15 Dec 2019 00:53

Guys at 54:00 start listening to what our Su-30 guys did! They went in 30km close, 2 of the AMRAAMs were fired well within that bubble. They went in that close to hit the F-16s and were maneuvering for a good Pk. Nerves of steel, great training and SOPs, validated in real combat. Sameer lays it out straight!

Jayram · Post by **Jayram** » 15 Dec 2019 01:22

The evasive action of the 2 SU30's against !5! AIMs should be told and feted esp at such close ranges. Why are we not doing that? Those pilots are no less award worthy no? What am I missing?

nam · Post by **nam** » 15 Dec 2019 01:56

Even at those close ranges, Su30 must have used tactics against BVR.

May be fly higher and get closer. This will allow Su30 to be on top of F16 and get a firing solution.

Flying higher will force the BVR to expand energy chasing the target up.

srai · Post by **srai** » 15 Dec 2019 03:19

Karan M wrote:Guys at 54:00 start listening to what our Su-30 guys did! They went in 30km close, 2 of the AMRAAMs were fired well within that bubble. They went in that close to hit the F-16s and were maneuvering for a good Pk. Nerves of steel, great training and SOPs, validated in real combat. Sameer lays it out straight!

Did the Su-30MKI carry SAP-518?

One can infer SPJ on both sides. Within 30km and still no BVR lock/kill on both sides.

30km is R-73 territory. Wondering if the Su-30MKIs were going in for R-73 IR launch. MiG-21 Bison WC Abhi’s F-16 kill was at around 20km.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 15 Dec 2019 06:30

yaah, I have the same question - 30 Km and why did not SU 30MKI launch any missiles? what could be possible explanations

Rishirishi · Post by **Rishirishi** » 15 Dec 2019 06:58

Karan M wrote:This is the video of the Military Literature Festival. Three thoroughbreds and two donkeys on stage starting from the 1 hour 6 past, I leave it to the audience here to figure out which is which. Very easy to do so.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... =emb_title

Watch to the end of it. Chrisitane Fair says it all.

At the end of the day, it does not matter if the madrassa was hit or not. It does not matter weather the F-16 was downed or not. There are 2 outcomes.
1 Pakistans Nuclear bluff has been called off.
2 More focus is shifting on PAF and expect them to get more resources.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 15 Dec 2019 07:28

i dont know why Dhanoa said 'stupid mistake' ..he could have said ' unfortunate error/mistake'

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 15 Dec 2019 07:39

its checkmated not chequemated..sameer joshi should do better !!

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 15 Dec 2019 08:11

in my book..the only reason SU did not fire was ...the F16 were receding targets at higher altitudes...the Su did not want ingress into PAk airspace.. so not exactly the right conditions for a launch !

mahadevbhu · Post by **mahadevbhu** » 15 Dec 2019 08:26

Good points made by all the panelists.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 15 Dec 2019 08:42

and all the good points demolished by madame Fair !!

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 15 Dec 2019 09:19

1) i think her point abt having a vid of the radar picture is valid..which i am 200% sure IAF has... so we just need to relax and chill. the imp point as she very well said was that we ingressed and bombed mainland napakistan. 2) in my opinion meeting of Paki NCA was only to show that they are seen to be doing something..for the aam abdul.. to tell the awam that we have atum bum ... and we can use it. i mean even a dickhead knows atum bum is a really a weapon of last resort...but they had to show they doing something. I dont agree that meeting of NCA is proof of our strike having succeeded. Even if IAF;s every bomb had missed, the PAF ingress was so humiliating that NCA would have been called for the awams consumption.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 15 Dec 2019 14:54

fanne wrote:yaah, I have the same question - 30 Km and why did not SU 30MKI launch any missiles? what could be possible explanations

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 15 Dec 2019 14:55

In the above, look at launches versus higher flying targets, not bomber sized non maneuvering targets.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 15 Dec 2019 15:01

srai wrote: Did the Su-30MKI carry SAP-518?

One can infer SPJ on both sides. Within 30km and still no BVR lock/kill on both sides.

30km is R-73 territory. Wondering if the Su-30MKIs were going in for R-73 IR launch. MiG-21 Bison WC Abhi’s F-16 kill was at around 20km.

With Bars the range would have been sufficient to get a radar oriented firing solution. It wasn't EW otherwise they wouldnt be able to maneuver in versus the targets at all, as they wouldn't know where each was. Similarly the F16s also would have had a radar firing solution on our guys. The SAP518 or any EW pod will be of limited use in such a dynamic 3D battle as you keep changing vectors and as a result your pod is no longer pointed at the opponent.

Trying to get a R73 or R27 IR shot is plausible, but I think they were trying for an ARH shot but were unable to get a high Pk shot. Either ways, none of the missiles they had, were up to the task of taking on higher alt targets.

chola · Post by **chola** » 15 Dec 2019 17:53

Aditya_V wrote:
Regarding JF17 see Gafoora tweets- the Pakistanis desperately wanted to show case the JF 17. if JF 17 has capability to drop smart munitions and fire BVR missiles, PAF would sprayed politically and monetarily cheaper Chinese missiles and bombs not risked F16s to come to the LOC and drop a LGB.

They are living the JF-17 lie.

There are two JF-17s flying with kill marks though the pilots awarded Hassan and Noman were known F-sola jockeys.

Let's hope their delusions actually impact the way they fight.

mahadevbhu · Post by **mahadevbhu** » 15 Dec 2019 19:31

Christine Fair had some valid points.
1. It doesn't matter if you killed terrorists or not, there are thousands of terror camps in Pakistan.Your spice bombs may not have struck the targets since they weren't blown up and away. Tiny holes don't make sense.
2. May.not have downed an F 16, though as per the other speakers evidence it is more likely than not that we did.
Her main point was that the evidence of any achievement is not conclusive since there is not enough data.
My personal belief is that an F16 was downed. Unable to get yo any conclusions on the bombings
Also wanted to figure out the chances of a Su 30 mki being downed by the F16 and Amraams. Is it possible that one has been downed and it's being hidden away from the junta in India.?

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 15 Dec 2019 19:50

That's simply not how we do things, especially given that we acknowledged a fratricide and Abhi's downing. Even if we manage to hide it for now, there will be the families that wouldn't take it.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 15 Dec 2019 20:25

mahadevbhu wrote:Christine Fair had some valid points.
1. It doesn't matter if you killed terrorists or not, there are thousands of terror camps in Pakistan.Your spice bombs may not have struck the targets since they weren't blown up and away. Tiny holes don't make sense.

Can you please stop quoting her brainless idiocy. Fair is a complete fraud when it comes to airpower. Sameer Joshi cleanly pointed out what Spice's penetration profile looks like with multiple pics. There's even an IAF test bunker at Pokhran with the exact same kind of holes and with a roof at a much lower height, and it's not been blown to pieces either.

"It doesnt matter if you killed terrorists", sure that's why the US keeps hitting them, and the Israelis keep hitting them. When they do it, for gori memsaab it is ok. When India does it, the loon starts making bizarre arguments.

2. May.not have downed an F 16, though as per the other speakers evidence it is more likely than not that we did.
Her main point was that the evidence of any achievement is not conclusive since there is not enough data.

There is more than enough data, but for the fact she is utterly dishonest when it comes to this topic and will refuse to consider it.

My personal belief is that an F16 was downed. Unable to get yo any conclusions on the bombings
Also wanted to figure out the chances of a Su 30 mki being downed by the F16 and Amraams. Is it possible that one has been downed and it's being hidden away from the junta in India.?

The only reason you are not getting a warning for such a colossally silly question is the fact that you aren't a Paki. Please don't ask such stupid questions.

If this is the level of your contribution, I suggest you read through the thread and rather not post in this thread lest you get a warning or even worse, sent on a sojourn.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 15 Dec 2019 20:42

Sorry typing from phone so pardon the mistakes-
The best proof that killing terrorist works or not is that look at Pulwana/Balakot example - no terrorist attack since then, that too when the ge election 2019 was underway and best way to influence election and drawn Namo.
Plus can I request moderator to force a name change- mahadevbhu implies by association someone who’s represent Bhu university. Not a crime by itself, but becomes troublesome when someone keeps making borderline traitorous statements.
I am sure you would not allow a handle that says bengalihindu or marathimanus and make anti north or anti-xxx remark

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 15 Dec 2019 21:46

1) on the punjabi and hindko issue in the vid ...my neighbour in punjab is a south india mallu..now if he shot a vid and gave commentary in mallu then surely it cant be punjab because punjabi is spoken in punjab !! what a F...ing argument. 2) Mig drouge chute...am no expert but if a missile exploded in the tailpipe of a Mig, what would happen to the chute fabric etc. experts can weight in 3) PAF has to manage perceptions not IAF. PAF/PA has to tell its awam that its a invincible force of momins. 3) chola...yes these delusions affect the way they fight. in kargil as in 1965 ops,1971 Pak Army generals thought hindus wont fight and it will be a walk over. and later the same general was asking for forgiveness and dua from his troops!! 4) theres always a next time and as fair said there will be another terror attack only pakis thinking on its contours ... so lets wait and watch.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 15 Dec 2019 21:48

i didnt get Fairs argument about aspect ratio of pictures..can someone explain that?

disha · Post by **disha** » 15 Dec 2019 22:30

manjgu wrote:i didnt get Fairs argument about aspect ratio of pictures..can someone explain that?

Why are we indulging Christine UnFair? She goes and does some 'shchitt' droppings and several posters go around saying 'fair shchitt' 'fair shchitt'.

Do not we realize that Christine is fishing for information? We have already disclosed more than necessary. Like for example how Su-30 MKI out-maneuvered the F-16s and how they could not get a firing solution.

So no point in explaining any of UnFair's argument. Particularly why are we doing the work of an umriki analyst?

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 16 Dec 2019 02:32

That is a remarkable performance by Fair. She full well knows that this behaviour would get her escorted out of the room in the US. And probably banned from the premises.

White privilege is okay in Watts or Harlem ma'am, I don't think Indians will give you the opportunity again. Kicked out of both India and Pakistan and also Brookings or whatever it was. She needs to discipline her mind to be taken as a serious player.

Indians had a good look at the this westerner and can draw their own conclusions. She has discredited not only herself.

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 16 Dec 2019 04:25

sanjaykumar wrote:That is a remarkable performance by Fair. She full well knows that this behaviour would get her escorted out of the room in the US. And probably banned from the premises.

White privilege is okay in Watts or Harlem ma'am, I don't think Indians will give you the opportunity again. Kicked out of both India and Pakistan and also Brookings or whatever it was. She needs to discipline her mind to be taken as a serious player.

Indians had a good look at the this westerner and can draw their own conclusions. She has discredited not only herself.

+100. I saw several of her tweets today and she conveniently brings out the woman/feminist card whenever someone is successfully arguing against her. Today she erupted against Sameer Joshi calling him several things including “without an achievement in his life”. I loved how dignified Sam/Vishnu Som were in their response to her tweet. When they go low, we go high! Kudos!

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 16 Dec 2019 04:52

That Major Brigadier was ever the gentleman, what a contrast in their conduct.

Rishirishi · Post by **Rishirishi** » 16 Dec 2019 06:55

Madame Fair has a very good point, when she talkes about military action being an extension of politics. How important it is to inform honestly.

In all fairness India has fallen behind Pakistan in technology. IAF had an option (rafael) and the funds, but Indian prochurement policies failed. Pakistan seems to be better at optimizing the resources and being prepared, despite having less funds.
I dont think IAF or the Ministry would be doing India a favor, if it is hinding the truth. Hiding the truth would only serve the purpose to save the ones, who failed the nation.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 16 Dec 2019 09:03

Rishirishi wrote:Madame Fair has a very good point, when she talkes about military action being an extension of politics. How important it is to inform honestly.

In all fairness India has fallen behind Pakistan in technology. IAF had an option (rafael) and the funds, but Indian prochurement policies failed. Pakistan seems to be better at optimizing the resources and being prepared, despite having less funds.
I dont think IAF or the Ministry would be doing India a favor, if it is hinding the truth. Hiding the truth would only serve the purpose to save the ones, who failed the nation.

Can you please lay off the generics and explain in which specific areas India has fallen behind Pakistan in technology beyond the oft-quoted and silly points regarding BVR AAMs and SDRs (given they ignore what is available to the IAF, and what it is also doing).

Need specifics, not general gyan.

kit · Post by **kit** » 16 Dec 2019 09:57

Karan M wrote:
Rishirishi wrote:Madame Fair has a very good point, when she talkes about military action being an extension of politics. How important it is to inform honestly.

In all fairness India has fallen behind Pakistan in technology. IAF had an option (rafael) and the funds, but Indian prochurement policies failed. Pakistan seems to be better at optimizing the resources and being prepared, despite having less funds.
I dont think IAF or the Ministry would be doing India a favor, if it is hinding the truth. Hiding the truth would only serve the purpose to save the ones, who failed the nation.
Can you please lay off the generics and explain in which specific areas India has fallen behind Pakistan in technology beyond the oft-quoted and silly points regarding BVR AAMs and SDRs (given they ignore what is available to the IAF, and what it is also doing).

Need specifics, not general gyan.

I think they were referring to the requirement identification to procurement time , the pakis seem to be nimbler in identifying and finding relatively low cost options.,

eg : purchase of 8 Chinese subs that will come online within a few years (wonder if they pay for that ?!)
more F16s dirt cheap
building their bandars locally
getting the chinks to install meter band radars to detect "stealth" Indian fighters
getting Turkish companies to build components for tanks and artillery (wonder why not Chinese)
Improving ballistic missile telemetry using Chinese telescopes
Tactical radars and SAMs china again for Indian border
More frigates for PN ?3
All the while improving their reprocessing capability more than twice
Getting more of the AEW&Cs
More Orions ? ( not sure if uncle agreed)

Most of the above happened within a span of 5 years

Indian procurement times have improved but not to that extent of actual orders!
Also Paki is the master of getting freebies

Happy to be corrected !

Shanmukh · Post by **Shanmukh** » 16 Dec 2019 10:04

manjgu wrote:1) on the punjabi and hindko issue in the vid.

If we are speaking of Nowshera in J&K, Christine Fair is confused and wrong. In Nowshera, the languages spoken are Pahari and Dogri, not Hindko. In fact, the Indian census of 2011 does not even mention Hindko as being spoken in the area. There are a lot of refugees from W Punjab settled in the area, and I won't be surprised if the lingua-franca of the region is Punjabi.