MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 07 Mar 2020 18:54

IAF is probably waiting for Pakis to give them another opportunity

MeshaVishwas · Post by **MeshaVishwas** » 07 Mar 2020 20:23

Rishi wrote:For some reason IAF is silent and people on this board who interacted with WCo Abhi on this board are silent. FWIW this action made us aware of PAF full spectrum EW capabilities and that itself is worth its weight in gold.

Well said!
The force composition from them were almost all CCS instructors and they probably lost one thanks to Wing Co Abhinandan. It was their best of the best failing miserably against our mango Sqn pilots.
Next time the situation will be devastating to the Fizzleya.

khan · Post by **khan** » 07 Mar 2020 20:46

Aditya_V wrote:IAF is probably waiting for Pakis to give them another opportunity

IMO, there is no need to wait. Terrorists are always a legitimate target. I hear that Balakot is back in business. They should take it out again - with video

MeshaVishwas · Post by **MeshaVishwas** » 08 Mar 2020 02:14

Picture credit to Sanjay Simha again.
https://twitter.com/Chopsyturvey/status ... 90272?s=19

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 08 Mar 2020 03:18

Karan M wrote:....We couldn't open fire until they crossed the LoC. They had no such qualms.

There are conflicting reports on on whether they crossed the loc or not.

nam · Post by **nam** » 08 Mar 2020 03:28

10KM NFZ. As long they were flying outside of it, we cannot do anything. PAF must have been flying beyond the 10 KM line, since M2K incursion.

They must have assembled in air and drop off, numerous time since Feb 26 morning. Come to the 10KM line and get go back.

On Feb 27, the F16 probably broke the 10KM line to use LGB. This was the indication of attack, which led to first Mig21 scramble and Su30 & Mig29 from other bases.

Other PAF jets were still away from 10KM line and fired their SOW. The incursion towards LC to use LGB must have been a deliberate ploy to ambush our fighters by getting them to come towards the LC & try to intercept F16. You are fundamentally running towards an incoming BVR.

How did then WC Abhi manage to get the hit? It was due to the Pir Panjals. PAF AWACS were blind to incoming Mig21 due to Pi Pangals and the Mig21 just popped in to firing position!

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 08 Mar 2020 04:35

Aditya G wrote:
Karan M wrote:....We couldn't open fire until they crossed the LoC. They had no such qualms.
There are conflicting reports on on whether they crossed the loc or not.

I am reasonably certain they didn't have to, and so they didn't .

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 11 Mar 2020 05:09

AM Harikumar specifically mentions that they did not cross the LoC in his article in The Week.

The first enemy package crossed the border in the Line of Control sector at 9:58am on the Akhnoor axis, and approached the LoC around 10:06am. Another package approached the Poonch axis, staggered by five to seven minutes. A third package was opposite Anupgarh sector.
...
The PAF ensured that they did not cross the International Boundary or the Line of Actual Control.

The confusion may be because he says "crossed the border" in the first line. The border he is referring to is the actual border to the west of the LoC. But that still keeps them inside PoK airspace.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 13 Mar 2020 03:45

Isn't the 10Km NFZ only applicable to IB and not to LOC?

SRajesh · Post by **SRajesh** » 14 Mar 2020 04:54

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/wor ... 583316.cms
Was this the guy shot down by Wingco Abhi
Is the news of his death now announced to hide in the din of Corona virus
Or this is totally unrelated to the skrimish

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 14 Mar 2020 06:25

Not the same pilot shot down by Wing Commander Varthaman, VrC.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 14 Mar 2020 12:15

Reading this I think it should include LOC as well for -10Km distance, I guess if you control the land it becomes the DIZ as well.

https://treaties.un.org/doc/publication ... nglish.pdf

Combat aircraft (to include fighter, bomber, reconnaissance, jet military trainer and armed helicopter aircraft) will not fly within 10 kms
of each other's airspace including ADIZ. No aircraft of any side will enter the airspace over the territorial waters of the ether country, except by prior permission.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 23 Mar 2020 07:00

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 23 Mar 2020 07:32

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 23 Mar 2020 07:39

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 23 Mar 2020 07:48

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 23 Mar 2020 07:54

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 07 Apr 2020 10:05

https://twitter.com/joe_sameer/status/1 ... 26881?s=20 ---> #JhoothBoleKauwaKaate

The confirmation tht #PAF lost a fighter jet during #OpSwiftRetort was given by DG ISPR, the official spokesperson of "PakFauj". You know that he is making a monkey out of you, covering the truth; when he changes his statement every 2-3 hours.

#DoosraBanda

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 07 Apr 2020 10:08

Longer range AMRAAM missiles allowed Wing Commander Varthaman to get in close. So much for a longer range missile.

https://twitter.com/joe_sameer/status/1 ... 24992?s=20 ---> 8 Vipers with over 4+ AMRAAMs fired against two Sukhois with ZERO Pk. 4+ Vipers allowing an IAF aircraft to enter 15+ km with a BARCAP in place, losing a PAF jet in the bargain. After all these blunders, the only thing PAF can be 'macho' enough, is to build memorials in celebration. #DoosraBanda.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 07 Apr 2020 10:25

Rakesh wrote:Longer range AMRAAM missiles allowed Wing Commander Varthaman to get in close. So much for a longer range missile.

Lets not take the wrong lessons from this. Longer range BVR missiles are always useful and advantageous.

In this scenario, there was a specific situation created because of clever utilization of group tactics and terrain by IAF (maneuvering by the Su-30's, Mig-21's taking off from Srinagar hiding behind the mountains, pakis deciding to go defensive because they were presumably alerted by their AWACS that there were more IAF fighters being vectored in etc.) which allowed the WingCo to get in close and he made the most of it.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 07 Apr 2020 12:04

But I have a question where is the Longer range for Amraam C7 compared to R77 coming from? I don't think it is accurate. PAF had promised a Su30 to Bajwa and IK, hence sprung a suprise with some F16 shooting Amraams from well within thier territory against IAF su 30 within our territory.
Iam sure if the IAF wanted they can do the same to the PAF, have a few aircraft go close to the LOC and then a couple of Su30MKis go Mach 2 and launch R77's. Where the Su30 is super sonic and F16 is subsonic then the Amraam 's will be outranged. TheIAF biggest mistake was they expected PAF to play by the rules when PAF H&D was at stake.

The reason Pakis released Wing Commander early was since the PAF's bombs missed and they lost a F16 without any promised Su30. The PA leadership lost confidence in the PAF.

chetonzz · Post by **chetonzz** » 07 Apr 2020 17:29

just sharing what i found...

"During Air Sino-Pakistanais "Shaheen VI" a J - 11b "beat" two JF-17 in a dogfight 1 vs 2"-- Friday, 29 September 2017

https://thaimilitaryandasianregion.blog ... en-vi.html

"even two blunders cannot contest with one china maal Su-30--and pukis believe in fairy tales of swift retreat"

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 07 Apr 2020 18:26

nachiket wrote:
Rakesh wrote:Longer range AMRAAM missiles allowed Wing Commander Varthaman to get in close. So much for a longer range missile.
Lets not take the wrong lessons from this. Longer range BVR missiles are always useful and advantageous.

In this scenario, there was a specific situation created because of clever utilization of group tactics and terrain by IAF (maneuvering by the Su-30's, Mig-21's taking off from Srinagar hiding behind the mountains, pakis deciding to go defensive because they were presumably alerted by their AWACS that there were more IAF fighters being vectored in etc.) which allowed the WingCo to get in close and he made the most of it.

Saar, forgive this mango abdul for not being clear. You are correct.

I had this post in mind... --> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7634&p=2420185#p2420185

...in which the prevailing theory that simply having a longer range missile translates into guaranteed success in air combat.

----
As Group Captain HV Thakur (retd) says...

https://twitter.com/a473629/status/1235 ... 99840?s=20 ---> I know that Astra is one of the best in our inventory. But our adversary has AIM-120. We need to outgun them. That's my point.

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/12356 ... 49856?s=20 ---> No! This is completely misunderstood. Abstract Ex - think about it. police gun range = 100 meters, but thief's gun range = 120 meters. Will this be reason enough for the thief to be allowed to escape? No. There's all kinds of tactics. For policing, as also, for air combat.
----

Now the NaPakis are stating that the JF-17 will be able to defeat the Rafale in air combat, because they will be armed with the PL-15 BVRAAM which has a longer range than the Meteor BVRAAM. So as per Lahori logic, all Rafales will be shot down by the JF-17.

As you correctly stated ---> clever utilization of group tactics. +108 to you!

khan · Post by **khan** » 08 Apr 2020 10:41

nachiket wrote:
In this scenario, there was a specific situation created because of clever utilization of group tactics and terrain by IAF (maneuvering by the Su-30's, Mig-21's taking off from Srinagar hiding behind the mountains, pakis deciding to go defensive because they were presumably alerted by their AWACS that there were more IAF fighters being vectored in etc.) which allowed the WingCo to get in close and he made the most of it.

I hope IAF has noticed the utility of small point defense fighters that can operate on forward airbases with very little support.

If those MiG-21’s weren’t there the outcome of the incident would have been very different. Additional planes coming in from further away would have been seen 20-30 minutes before they got into the fight. Bigger planes will be easier to see on Radar, harder and more expensive to operate on forward air bases.

But the MiG-21 was like a cat among the pigeons within minutes of launching. IAF should be forward stationing Tejas MK-I planes all along the Pakistani & Chinese border, so they can do unpredictable things at short notice - sort of a poor mans stealth fighter.

srai · Post by **srai** » 08 Apr 2020 11:21

^^^
6 MiG-21 Bison squadrons replaced by an equivalent number of LCA Tejas Mk1/1A squadrons on order.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 08 Apr 2020 13:18

srai wrote:^^^
6 MiG-21 Bison squadrons replaced by an equivalent number of LCA Tejas Mk1/1A squadrons on order.

Not one Mk1A has been ordered.

ashbhee · Post by **ashbhee** » 08 Apr 2020 23:48

Aditya_V wrote:
srai wrote:^^^
6 MiG-21 Bison squadrons replaced by an equivalent number of LCA Tejas Mk1/1A squadrons on order.
Not one Mk1A has been ordered.

The last I heard was, only formality is remaining which had to be done in April because it has to in the new financial year blah blah etc.
I wonder what happened to it? Maybe COVID-19 happened to it.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 09 Apr 2020 00:08

srai is referring to the 40 Tejas Mk1 and 83 Tejas Mk1A, which will form six squadrons. The order for the 83 Mk1As will happen this year. Confirmed by Group Captain HV Thakur (retd).

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 09 Apr 2020 11:24

My post was frustration in LCA Tejas orders, for many jingos this order of 83 Mk1A and some more in FOC standard to achieve preferably 24-32 aircraft year would be nice. Given the long delay and priority, 39,000 crore orders whose cash outflow will be spread over 7-8 years need not be delayed, interest rates give some leverage, we can afford to have an extra deficit due to local defense production by 10K-15k a year.

We want the LCAMK1/1A/MWF/TEDBF and then AMCA to be the bulk of the IAF fleet along with local weaponry.

basant · Post by **basant** » 16 Apr 2020 10:25

Nice collection of OSINT regarding Doosra Banda from Freaking Beast.

Leonard · Post by **Leonard** » 16 Apr 2020 23:02

Here's ANOTHER -- Twitter Video --

There'a RED dump truck whizzing by carrying Airplane Wreckage -- Can anyone with better screen editing/video editing skills get the frame by frame pics for analysis ?

https://t.co/Bto5Ff89k8?amp=1

srai · Post by **srai** » 19 Apr 2020 15:49

Vivek K wrote:On the F-16 vs Sukhoi front - is it that the Sukhois jammed every Paki asset so they couldn't get a firing solution. Realizing they had been incapacitated, the F-16s needed to escape and therefore lobbed AMRAAMs to keep the Sukhois busy (can AMRAAMs be guided by the Erieye) . So when Abhi came out from behind the hills and chased the 16s he was out of the Sukhois jamming reach. The other Mig turned back for this reason and Abhi did not realize it in the heat of the battle.

How do we know if the second MiG was not part of a planned dog fight tactic like below?

The F-16 bagged by WC Abhi was the one that was going after the second MiG. So I would say the tactic employed by the MiG-21s worked.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 20 Apr 2020 20:37

srai wrote:
Vivek K wrote: .... So when Abhi came out from behind the hills and chased the 16s he was out of the Sukhois jamming reach. The other Mig turned back for this reason and Abhi did not realize it in the heat of the battle.
How do we know if the second MiG was not part of a planned dog fight tactic like below?

The F-16 bagged by WC Abhi was the one that was going after the second MiG. So I would say the tactic employed by the MiG-21s worked.

But (pardon my ignorance) did Abhi step outside the jamming range that allowed F-16s to launch against him?

srai · Post by **srai** » 21 Apr 2020 17:59

Vivek K wrote:But (pardon my ignorance) did Abhi step outside the jamming range that allowed F-16s to launch against him?

What jamming are you referring to? If you are talking about Su-30MKI’s SAP-518, those are SPJ (self protection) and
not an escort jammer like SAP-14 pods.

Also, WC Abhi’s MiG-21 wasn’t carrying an ELL-8222 SPJ.

Besides, the F-16 that brought WC Abhi down fired its AMRAAM from less than 10km distance. Very close.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 22 Apr 2020 01:17

If WingCo Abhi was close enough to fire an R-73 jamming wouldn't be too much of a consideration even if the SAP-14's were being used (which they weren't).

Even if he had been carrying his own SPJ (like the 8222) it works only in the frontal aspect and would have no effect once he turned cold to egress after firing the R-73.

Rishirishi · Post by **Rishirishi** » 22 Apr 2020 02:13

Besides, the F-16 that brought WC Abhi down fired its AMRAAM from less than 10km distance. Very close.

Isint that range like 10 sec warning and 100% no escape ? how did he manage to get in that position? did he not have an onboard radar or at least warned by other AWACS?

srai · Post by **srai** » 22 Apr 2020 03:26

Rishirishi wrote:
Besides, the F-16 that brought WC Abhi down fired its AMRAAM from less than 10km distance. Very close.
Isint that range like 10 sec warning and 100% no escape ? how did he manage to get in that position? did he not have an onboard radar or at least warned by other AWACS?

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 22 Apr 2020 06:58

Since Sqn leader Vyas was with Wing Commander and we can see in the Mirpur video he turns around after ~30secs after Wing Commander was hit. I think the F16 from which Amraam was fired against Wing Commander was the F16 that was brought down by Wing Commander-thats why he got that close. Another hint, the drop tank loaded by PA in the truck along with an aircraft fairing looks like a subsonic Tank. And IAF claims it is a twin seater. So in all probability this F16 was the one which came close to the LOC to launch the LGB at Noushera Brigade HQ. The pilot acting as WSO to launch the LGB was in all likelihood to have died in ACH Rawalpindi.

chetonzz · Post by **chetonzz** » 22 Apr 2020 10:20

Leonard wrote:Here's ANOTHER -- Twitter Video --

There'a RED dump truck whizzing by carrying Airplane Wreckage -- Can anyone with better screen editing/video editing skills get the frame by frame pics for analysis ?

https://t.co/Bto5Ff89k8?amp=1

that wreckage is of mig-21 tail/nozzle pictured below. Good part of that video is people clearly asking for "doosra banda"...

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 23 Apr 2020 11:47

Just want to reiterate what I have been saying by cross posting from the LCA Thread

Karan M wrote:
The Su-30 MKI can target 4 targets in its ESA area with R-77s. The F-16 can target up to 6 targets in TWS mode, ripple firing them. The RDY-3 on the Mirage 2000 can target 4 targets simultaneously. The Rafale can likely target much more than that number.

The limitations are not on the computing side which has been cracked a long time back with the widespread adoption of digital electronics and time sharing algorithms but on the radar mechanics side where with gimbal arrays its hard for mechanical scanned arrays to keep track of maneuvering targets. However, all this including guiding multiple missiles, was repeatedly demonstrated by fighters like the F-14 ages ago. Why exactly do you think the world is moving on to AESA radars which can guide beams near instantaneously throughout their field of view?

If you watch the IAF presentation and the Mirpur video, it is clear Squadron Leader Vyas as Wingman to Wing COmmander Abhinandnan also crossed the LOC and turned his aircraft around a good 30 secs after the Wing Commander was hit. Another F-16 came to LOC and fired an AMRAAM at him another 60 secs later.

So the F-16 which targeted Wing Commander Abhinandan did not target Sqn leader Vyas who was right with him, that means the Aircraft which took down Wing Commander Abhinandan was the F-16 which went down. So all the PAF gasbags are not only denying the death of a comrade they are also claiming his kill as thiers, the man who saved the day for the PAF by giving up his life is being denied his very existence. What a professional Air force, I have a feeling that given its subsonic drop tanks, this was the F-16 which came close to the LOC and dropped the LGB.

First they said only JF-17 used. when we showed the AMRAAM they claimed it was Taiwan stock, then when proved the serial no. is same as the contract of AMRAAM's then the give credit to F-16 squadrons.

There is definitely certain amount of delusion in PAF squadrons and it getting worse, take the case of the Pilot who crashed the F-16 in Mar 20. I bet the reason he probably was transferred from a JF-17 squadron a few months ago. He probably was not used to handling a FBW aircraft - i.e the JF-17 never completes a loop in any airshow, something which even a MIG 21 does.