Aditya_V wrote:Karan_M .This is quite unnecessary,
What is quite unnecessary? My posting actual, factual sources to show that literally everything you have claimed so far is incorrect, merely to prevent folks from making incorrect assumptions about what occurred?
Lets recap.
1. You claimed that some ROE existed which prevented the R77 from being used, and this was a GOI/MEA issue.
Status: False. No such thing. Only a fly 10 km away from the border rule which Pakis violated.
2. You claimed that R77 would have a high Pk solution vs receding F-16s, which were likely flying supersonic.
Status: False. The R77 and any MRAAM would struggle against such targets when its range against receding, non maneuvering targets is a fourth of the regular one.
3. You claimed that Abhi knew that Sq Ldr Vyas was targeted so Abhi engaged the F16s as a defensive measure.
Status: False, there is no confirmation of this or mention of this. He engaged the targets which were available via his radar scope, and missile seeker lock. He didn't even know Sq Ldr Vyas had broken off. Both of them were targeted and there is no mention Abhi even spoke to Vyas about taking on a F-16 which had targeted him and not Abhi.
4. You claimed Sq Ldr Vyas was there all along and left only when he saw Abhinandan shot down.
Status: False. He had already broken off since he got the warning from GCI (Sq Ldr Agarwal) about crossing the LOC and that F-16s had turned hot.
5. You claimed comms jamming was a PAF myth
Status: False. Multiple sources corroborate communications jamming occurred and was likely why Abhi didnt hear the message.
6. You claimed the IAF presentation video shows Abhi and Vyas together
Status: False. It only shows one MiG-21 vs the F-16s. Clearly indicating the wingman had left by then.
Can you show me Sq Ldr Vyas in this picture? If you claim its the orange icon at the bottom, guess what it's receding even further away in the 2nd frame indicating he has turned and is leaving. There is no icon next to Abhinandan. Your claim is incorrect.
Now yet another claim emerges:
I have been saying from the beginning that the F16 was shot down with with HMCS cued shot, the F16 pick as a "suprise" in the IAF citation was by Wing Commander using his Radar in Ambush position.
Again, more mixing up of the terms you are even using. This is the RWR issue all over again.
Do you understand that the HMCS is used for targets in the visual domain which the pilot can already see? That a pilot has to *see a target*, lock the HMCS on it, and then that slews the seeker and missile accordingly for a shot! There is no mention of this.
He went for a seeker activated shot! All he did was uncage the seeker and let it "growl" indicating that it had a target, and let it loose.
Abhi did not see the target he was attacking, so why would he use the HMCS and against which target?
Sameer Joshi writes:
As Abhinandan was looking for targets in CC mode, he got a missile seeker head lock. Important to note, it was not a radar assisted Lock, but a missile head Lock — which picked up a heat emitting target out to 30 km within its 30 deg field of view.
Its actually +/- 75 degrees with +/- 45 degrees slewability off boresight, so what does that mean? It means he did not slew the seeker off bore, which means he relied on the +/- 30 degrees which is intrinsic to the seeker.
roe.ru wrote: Off-boresight/seeker deflection angle, deg ±45/±75
Sameer Joshi wrote: Abhinandan launched a R-73 missile on a heading of 280–290 degrees at 20,000 feet after the missile head locked onto a target in frontal quarters. Since the radar was in close combat (CC) search mode at that time, the aircraft being tracked by the R-73 would not have got any Lock ON chirp on its radar warning receiver (RWR). Neither does the R-73 missile give any approach warning while using passive guidance. The PAF aircraft, targeted by the IAF MiG-21, was NOT aware that a R-73 missile had been fired against it.
The R-73 seeker could have locked on to two PAF jets, one at north edge and the other at the bottom edge of the Mangla reservoir. The blip at the north edge, which subsequently vanished from the scope was flying at Mach 1+ at 32,000 feet.
An R-73 missile can intercept a 12G manoeuvring target at 0.3–30 km. The F-16 was placed around 22 km (trajectory inclusive) from the missile. The F-16 was well within the kinematic performance range available to the R-73 missile to shoot down the F-16.
What does this tell you? That the targets were purely locked on by the seeker. There was no single target in front of the pilots eyes, which he could have locked the HMCS on to.
AM Hari Kumar writes:
He went for the target in contact on close combat mode with R-75 missiles.
Can you explain of what use is a HMCS in this situation?
"Radar in ambush position"
What is this ambush position? He was using the radar in search mode and then moved it into Close Combat mode. How is either an "Ambush position"? The F-16s and Erieyes would have known his radar being active.
One day when we get the official information from the relevant memoirs we will know whether no R77 shot by Mig 21 Bison was due to pure technical parameters or the ROE in place. I have put view. You have another view, until the real world people in the know put out the truth I guess I am leaving it at this.
No, many real people with high grade access like AM Hari Kumar (former head WAC), AM Subramanian (recently retd Mirage 2000 pilot), Sameer Joshi et al have already posted informed views, which directly contradict *your speculation*.
You can't just post risible claims blaming the GOI, with no evidence and say "ah I have put my view one day, something will emerge and that will ensure my view wil be ok" when that view is proven to be false based on multiple credible sources, is not logical and also you don't post any evidence to support it.
That's not how this functions. You put a view, you back it up with evidence, not with idle speculation changing the story as you go along, and blaming the GOI for no darn reason.
I said both Mig 21 Bisons were targeted by the F16 in ambush position after they crossed LOC, realizing the danger Wing Commander selected R73 missile cued it with HMS and got the kill. Squadron leader Vyas was with him at this point and turned only after Wing Commander Abhinandan was shot down. My previous posts have exactly state this.
You are wrong
again.
Sq Leader Vyas had already turned by this time, as GCI had warned him to not cross the LoC and that there were F-16s which had turned hot. Read what credible sources say, just don't make up your own story and embellish it for whatever reason.
This is how crazy claims start.
Oh I read on BRF that if GOI had changed ROE we would have shot down 3 F-16s with multi-target on Kopyo with R-77.
Yeah sure. Only that no such evidence exists.