MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

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Karan M
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by Karan M »

Subin - that's an incredible find. Just shows how deeply KT is enmeshed in the Pak establishment. There is no way in heck that he will go against the PAF line and story.
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by manjgu »

manjgu wrote: is that in Feb 2019 they did not expect that IAF will hit back if one of IAF is downed?
I again post this.

The over-arching consideration was the BVR missile capability of IAF fighters which impinged unfavourably on the mission success probability.

In Feb 2019, they clearly felt that with AMRAAM, they had a good chance of mission success probability.

Of course, what happened thereafter must have shaken the senior planners up a bit, bar the rank and file who were fed propaganda of a great win.
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by manjgu »

let me rephrase... is that in 2019 they thought they had more than even chance of handling IAF retaliation in case a IAF plane is downed over indian territory?
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by Karan M »

Three options:

Option A: They didnt think India would retaliate heavily, given they thought India wouldnt even retaliate post Pulwama. COAS (rtd) Dhanoa laughs as he mentions this in an interview "with this GOI, I dont know how they thought it would not retaliate".

Option B: They didn't have an option whether IAF retaliated or not, given they had been humiliated and PA was breathing down their neck.

Option C: They figured a shooting war would be limited given Indian elections and US/WESTERN intervention because "NUCLEAR CONFLICT".

With 75 F-16s, vs approx 262 SU-30s, then 100 odd MiG-29s and Mirages, the PAF's ability to stand up to the IAF is very limited. The IAF seems to consider the JF-17 subpar. So even though they do have 100 plus of them, accounts by fairly accomplished IAF vets (recently rtd) are fairly dismissive of PAFs fighter fleet beyond the F-16s.

Also, the IAF definitely had a plan post any escalation by PAF. COAS (rtd) Dhanoa mentions this as well, "our weight of attack, response would have been in tons".
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by Rakesh »

Karan M wrote:
K Mehta wrote:I have a simple query
Does any source refute that
1. Indian Air force attacked a target in Pakistan.
2. Indian Air force engaged and countered fizzleya fighters that tried to bomb us.
3. Does this not show a doctrinal change?
If yes then it matters much more than any other aspects. This will cover any future engagements.
This simple point is lost on the majority of the perennially argumentative sorts.
Well said. People want at a 0% attrition rate. Thank goodness the IAF did not lose a Mirage 2000 or a Su-30MKI. Folks in here would get an asthma attack. Please look up Exercise Gagan Shakti and see how the IAF factored in attrition losses. Those numbers do not look pretty. But the IAF achieves the objective. This is war. Not strolling through a park for a Sunday afternoon walk.

In a future conflict against China, the IAF will lose combat aircraft (including Rafale). It is the nature of war. Will lose both pilot and platform. But wins are based on objectives met and not aircraft losses. NaPakis on twitter and the PAF think like this. Then again, NaPakis only think tactically and never strategically. Think Smartly.
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by arvin »

Karan M wrote:
This is also likely why Sqd Ldr Sameer Joshi's article also doesn't mention HMCS, but how Abhi would have used a mix of radar and the seeker acquisition itself to get a seeker lock and take the shot.
Ok thinking about it a bit, there is a possibility the SURA K may not have been used and the lock was due to favourable alignment between target and the missile.
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by nachiket »

Rakesh wrote:
Karan M wrote: This simple point is lost on the majority of the perennially argumentative sorts.
Well said. People want at a 0% attrition rate. Thank goodness the IAF did not lose a Mirage 2000 or a Su-30MKI. Folks in here would get an asthma attack.
When people were hyperventilating here and elsewhere about one Mig-21 being shot down (with pilot safe but pow), I always wondered what would have happened to them if they had been alive on 1st September 1965. 3 Pilots KIA on first day of action and the entire Vampire fleet of 130 aircraft withdrawn from frontline combat right at the start of the war because of obsolescence. Plus the ground war wasn't going too well either. They would have had a heart attack.

Combat always includes the possibility of losses unfortunately. We have been losing men on the border because of terrorist attacks and artillery duels the entire time. For the first time we took the battle deep within paki territory, surprised them and changed the rules of the game. Their response was an utter failure as far as the strike mission went. The loss of 1 Mig-21 is not the end of the world when the payoff is that, even if you are one of those people who refuse to believe that the pakis lost an F-16 as well.
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by nam »

PAF attacked across LC to keep any Indian response limited to PoK. Meanwhile, we had attacked proper Pak, not PoK.

The idea was to keep the conflict limited to PoK & J&K and hope for the big boys weighing in to stop any escalation.

Limiting the fight to PoK and using standoff weapons, PAF could show IAF losses within it's territory, when we ingress. This is exactly what happened with WC Abhi. It was ultimately about PR, not fighting us.

It is our stupidity to worry about collateral damages for which we went US, Israeli style high precision "hole in the roof". We should have flatten the entire Balakot camp.
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by nam »

In defence of IAF using Spice penetrators, they had no choice, as GoI is whiter than white. Even if a Pak goat was killed accidentally, GoI will permanently refuse any future approvals for air strikes.
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by Aditya_V »

A lot of stuff is gone on here, regarding Kargil it was PAF was only restricted by lack of BVR and F16 spare parts. An IAF MIg 29 - I think C version which we acquired in 1995 even locked on 2 PAF F16;s in Kargil and scared them away- BVR locking on 2 targets simultaneously was a big deal in 1999.

Regarding Balakot and Swift Retreat- Kudos to IAF for performing well on both days, GOI for approving the strike. The US had men in Sargodha and probably knew very quickly that a F-16 went down that day, imagine the leverage that given them over Pakistan, and what has Pakistan traded for it?

I still stick by that Squadron leader Vyas crossed over the LOC and was there with Wing Commander Abhinandan and tuned around only after Wing Commander was shot down

My OSINT basis

1) IAF presentation, you can clearly 2 blue triangles in the 1 pic and in the pic where the F16 track is vanishing if Wing Commander Abhinandan is in the center of the circle with the green Sigma sign, what is other aircraft represented in the blue triangle at the edge of the circle

Image

Image

2) Plus in the POK Mirpur video in 16 Secs to 22 secs you can see an aircraft turning with Jet contrails- when jet shot down is already coming down. 1 minute later the phone camera pans left and you can see another aircraft launching a missile at a target in the North East direction

[/quote]
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by Karan M »

Aditya_V wrote:I still stick by that Squadron leader Vyas crossed over the LOC and was there with Wing Commander Abhinandan and tuned around only after Wing Commander was shot down

My OSINT basis

1) IAF presentation, you can clearly 2 blue triangles in the 1 pic and in the pic where the F16 track is vanishing if Wing Commander Abhinandan is in the center of the circle with the green Sigma sign, what is other aircraft represented in the blue triangle at the edge of the circle

Image

Image
Not sure what those images are meant to support. Its well acknowledged that both aircraft went together across, but soon thereafter one broke off and went back into India (the wingman). So depending on when you take the radar snapshot, it will show them both together.

In the second pic. The sigmas represent the aircraft. So the blurry picture you are presenting, is insufficient. Go back and see the high rez one linked in the prior page. It shows nothing but the sigma and the rest are icons which have been sanitized for release but usually used by the AWACS display for specific data. Its full of little white triangles which don't match the hypothesis you have advanced.

The whole wingman thing is anyways of little relevance anyhow to the events that unfolded.

Regarding the second video, the team led by Joshi et al already factored that into their analysis.
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by Karan M »

nam wrote:In defence of IAF using Spice penetrators, they had no choice, as GoI is whiter than white. Even if a Pak goat was killed accidentally, GoI will permanently refuse any future approvals for air strikes.
Can you guys stop blaming GOI for everything. It becomes weird after a while. If IAF had engaged in collateral damage, the whole world would be after them and India. Just look at the mobilization over CAA, and the farmers protests. There is a huge clique, within and outside India that is against a nationalist Govt, and hence it makes ample sense to be careful and not hand the other side a propaganda victory. It was the IAFs decision to use SPICE and they openly acknowledge they didnt take the Info war aspect into consideration. Stuff happens.

In the meantime, regarding the strike itself, regular line pilots are informed after a training flight that within a few hours they will go into combat, and they will get a briefing at short notice. And the pilots pull the strike off with elan. Does anyone realize what this represents about the training and also combat readiness of the IAF crews.

The next day regular line pilots go up against PAFs creme de la creme and still fight them to a draw despite being heavily outnumbered, irrespective of the lies a propagandist like Tufail puts out.

So I dont see why we should self-flagellate so much over these events.

This GOI has overturned a decades long policy ever since Pak got nuclear weapons, of letting Pak do whatever it wished and not touching them. We went into Pak proper, as a deliberate message and did not use Brahmos on Su-30, in part, deliberately because GOI and IAF wanted to send Pak a message ki "ghus kar marenge" (COAS rtd Dhanoa's exact words, and he also indicated Brahmos option was already available at the time of Balakote), and instead of acknowledging this incredibly forthright GOI policy decision you want to accuse them of being "whiter than white" - which to be honest, will come across as a breathtaking joke to anyone who knows what this GOI has been doing.
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by Rakesh »

Karan M wrote:The next day regular line pilots go up against PAFs creme de la creme and still fight them to a draw despite being heavily outnumbered, irrespective of the lies a propagandist like Tufail puts out.

So I dont see why we should self-flagellate so much over these events.
Because for some folks, the "perception" was not this outcome. Thus the self-flagellation, ROE interpretation, etc, etc, etc.

ImageImage

What nachiket said was bang-on correct....thank goodness these guys were not around during the 1965 Indo-Pak Air War.
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by Karan M »

Sadly you are correct. I remember another forum veteran ranting about the IAF post this event and completely acting unhinged, stating that why did the IAF buy the Su-30s, why did we discuss its subsystems etc blah blah and how the IAF let down the GOI. Just nuts.
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by sajaym »

Rakesh wrote: Because for some folks, the "perception" was not this outcome. Thus the self-flagellation, ROE interpretation, etc, etc, etc.

.
Hilarious and true!

What folks are not getting is that even if we pinned PAF (figuratively) to the ground and pulled down their collective chaddis in broad day light in full view, their DGISPR would still appear the next day in a press conference and deny anything ever happened.

Both our enemies will lie, deny, cheat & ...repeat until the narrative matches their view of things. The Feb 2019 F-16 shoot down denial by Pakistan...then the June 2020 casualty figure denial by China...is proof that they both will NEVER, EVER reveal the truth. So move on guys!!

But I would advocate that we dish back the same to them... gag our media clowns and deny casualty figures and pretend things turned out well for us. Then see the fun!
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by ArjunPandit »

sajaym, dont count on the need of that...the prawn is boing slowly boiled...at some point sledgehammer will come in picture...sledgehammer a/c to me is
1. brahmos/other missiles
2. Naval forces
I getting to feel that paxtan will become a bigger version of palestine
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by manjgu »

Rakesh wrote:Great find Subin. Like the nation itself, the PAF is built on lies, myths and bedtime fantasy stories.

Folks in here are getting takleef over R-77, R-73, ROEs and are losing the bigger picture. Great replies by KaranM.
nobody is losing the big picture rakesh. i am sure all of us here are trying to find out .. what how things happened. all of us agree that Balakot was a game changer in indo pak relations just as revocation of art 370, 35 was. while loss of a Mig 21, Mi 17 was tragic but we know its war. all of us here are convinced we shot down a F16 . folks are only trying to understand the times sequence of events thats all. Why are u getting takleef about that.
I have lived thru 1971 , kargil so relax.
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by manjgu »

AND i could be possibly the only BR member who has heard ( not seen) PAF bombers screaming overhead and dropping bombs..
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by Rakesh »

If you lived through Kargil, then you would know that this statement of yours is completely untrue.
manjgu wrote:\... a few times apparently PAF was able to go up but did not shoot as IAF planes were eggressing and a potential downing of IAF ac would result in IAF plane crashing inside indian territory ... roe prevented them from trying to shoot.
How could they shoot at IAF aircraft, if they did not have a missile which outranged the R-27 of the IAF? ROE does not even arise, because they never had the advantage to begin with. At Balakot, the IAF advantage was overcome with the AIM-120C5 which they had in their inventory. At that point, they never followed any ROE. And still they came up short. You are highlighting some ROE story from a pilot who once served in the PAF. And it has been advised that the PAF - like the nation she supposedly protects - is built on LIES and MYTH. They will say and do anything, if that gives them the tactical (immediate) advantage.

Just because their radar could possibly detect IAF aircraft at Kargil in 1999, does not mean that they could shoot at IAF aircraft. Before they could have launched their AIM-9s against IAF combat aircraft, they would have been shot down by IAF MiG-29 escorts. This is a simple fact, which you are just refusing to comprehend. That is exactly what Flt Lt Gaurav Chibber did in his MiG-29 against a PAF F-16 that decided to stray too close. After the recent MiG-29 upgrade, there was an IAF MiG-29 pilot who was interviewed and he clearly said, that in Kargil....the PAF could not come anywhere close to IAF strike aircraft, because of the presence of the MiG-29. So how can you claim that ROE prevented them from shooting? These guys do not follow any rules.

We are now at 100+ pages in this thread. These issues that you, Aditya_V and others are bringing up have been discussed over and over in this thread. What is the point of rehashing the same story? Read through 100+ pages and you will have your answer. If you do not want to understand, then that is your problem.
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by Rakesh »

sajaym wrote:Hilarious and true!

So move on guys!!
Some cannot move on. The loss of a MiG-21 is too much to bear for them.

This is why reasoning like, "GOI said not to use R-77...." are put forth in this thread. I would be surprised if any member of any political party in India could point out R-77 in a line up.

Field Marshal Manekshaw put it best...

Image
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by Aditya_V »

This topic has been discussed to death but got curious reading Wing Commander Abhinandan citation.

It was commonly thought

1) PAF fired 5 Amraams at the SU-30
2) PAF fired 1 Amraam at Wing Commander Abhinandan and got him
3) PAF Fired 1 Amraam at retreatign Squadron Leader Vyas which was found in Reasi District of J&K

but reading wing Commander Abhinandan citation

https://www.livefistdefence.com/reveale ... -citation/
On 27 Feb 2019, Wing Commander Varthaman Abhinandan was on Operational Readiness Platform duty at Air Force Station Srinagar. At 0955h, a large force of Pakistan Air Force fighter aircraft (ac), consisting of advanced fourth generation F-16 and JF-17, were detected heading towards the LoC. The enemy ac were armed with beyond visual range (BVR) air to air missiles and advanced high calibre air to ground stand-off weapons. The enemy ac were under seamless airborne radar cover and control. At about 1000h, Wing Commander Varthaman Abhinandan was scrambled to intercept this package. Despite the enemy’s immense numerical and technological superiority, he proceeded to courageously engage the enemy ac package with utter disregard to his personal safety. On the intercept leg, he was provided with updates on likely air threats flying at very high altitudes. Displaying exceptional air combat acumen and knowledge of the enemy’s tactics, Wing Commander Varthaman Abhinandan scanned the low altitude airspace with his airborne intercept radar and picked up an enemy aircraft that was flying low to ambush the Indian fighter interceptor ac.

Wing Commander Varthaman Abhinandan alerted the other formation pilots towards this surprise threat. He then consolidated the riposte, but gathering his wingman in an offensive formation against the hostile Pakistani ac now dropping weapons on Indian Army positions. This audacious and aggressive maneouver forced the enemy ac into tactical chaos. All the enemy ac thereafter turned back including the rear echelon ac who were yet to launch their air to ground weapons.

Wing Commander Varthaman Abhinandan then pursued a retreating enemy fighter bomber aircraft, and in the ensuing aerial combat, shot down an F-16 ac with his on-board missile. However, in the melee, one of the enemy aircraft fired multiple advanced BVR missiles, one of which hit his aircraft forcing him to eject in enemy territory.
Points to be noted in the citation
1) It was not Jamming which got Wing Commander across the LOC (PAF propaganda down) he went there to take down enemy aircraft which were trying to hit Indian Army positions
2) PAF aircraft aldready had begun to drop A2g ordinance( referring for F16 dropping LGB), - Rear echelon aircraft i.e PAF Mirages with H-4 Bombs and JF-17 aircraft Mk-83 REK bombs were dropped in a hurry- this was probably a mission kill and PAF deliberate Miss theory is again seems doubtful

3) When Wing Commander Abhinandan was shot down by 1 F-16 releasing multiple Amraams which got him- note the words in the citation "b] one of the enemy aircraft fired multiple advanced BVR missiles, one of which hit his aircraft forcing him to eject in enemy territory.[/b]"

The citation also states Wing Commander Abhinandan gathered his wingman, i.e Squadron leader Vyas for the Riposte- so both of them participated in the Mission kill.

And while they were engaging the group of 4 F-16's- as can be seen from the IAF presentation and fired a R-73 at one of them- one of F-16's fired multiple Amraams and 1 of those missiles hit Wing Commander Abhinandan. So PAF not had 5 misses with Amraam on Avenger-1, 1 F-16(specifically mentioned in the Citation) fired multiple (can mean anywhere between 2 to 6 ) Amraams at Wing Commander Abhinandan- this probably exhausted the loadout of that F-16's Amraams, so Squadron leader Vyas could turn back and took only 1 minute later another F1-6 fired an Amraam at Squadron leader Vyas which also missed.

No wonder the Paki leadership released Wing Commander ABhinandan in no time, PA T80 tanks with browne pants started smashing up civilian roads near Sialkot.

With a numerical superiority for a few minutes of 28 to 6 (2 Su-30, 2 M2000 I and 2 Mig 21 Bison) and having fired 8-12 Amraams (internationally known as the Slammer) they had 1 Mig 21 Bison kill for the loss 1 F-16 D.

Today with LCA with iDerby ER, Rafale with Meteor, SU30 with Astra-1 and R-77M-1, things have gotten even worse for the PAF.

I think what the PAF and the Americans probably more than just the F-16 loss do not want the talk around so many Amraam C-5 misses, many F-16 and Amraam clients if this was widely known will start asking uncomfortable questions.
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by Rakesh »

This much takleef over Gafoor's Doosra Banda remark. Wow! :roll: :lol:

See from 19:25 to 24:30 in the video. And this video was streamed on 02 June 2021, just two months back.

Wing Commander Varthaman received his Vir Chakra for the shooting down of the F-16, but for Dr Christine Fair...Gafoor's Doosra Banda remark has not gone down well. And she is still harping on the idea that the F-16 was not shot down.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by Aditya_V »

IAF has stated it was an F-16D variant, a Block 52 taken down by a Mig 21 variant in spite of having superior numbers would be chilling to the Superiority ego of the Americans- hence the takleef.

If only we can give the flanker a missile which can match the range of the Bars radar- that was the only 1 advantage Pakis could use that day- the short legs of R-77 AE variant.

Tejas Mk1 with I Derby ER with Lock on after launch would have also messed Paki plans that day as the interceptors could have fired missiles at the entire 6 F-16 plus 2 JF 17 group just after crossing the Pir Panjals and then assigned them the targets, Pakis would had no time to react.
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by Rishirishi »

Today with LCA with iDerby ER, Rafale with Meteor, SU30 with Astra-1 and R-77M-1, things have gotten even worse for the PAF.
PAF was at an advantage with the AMRAM.

Meteor is supposed to be better, but only found on a handfull of Rafaels, Astra is unproven and has a russian seeker, IDerby ER may be a match for the Amram. Don't think India has the comfortable edge we wish.
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by basant »

How is Astra unproven and I-Derby ER not?
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by Karan M »

Rishirishi wrote:
Today with LCA with iDerby ER, Rafale with Meteor, SU30 with Astra-1 and R-77M-1, things have gotten even worse for the PAF.
PAF was at an advantage with the AMRAM.

Meteor is supposed to be better, but only found on a handfull of Rafaels, Astra is unproven and has a russian seeker, IDerby ER may be a match for the Amram. Don't think India has the comfortable edge we wish.
Astra has an Indian seeker as well, vwhich replaces the Russian one. And do you seriously think IAF and DRDO need you to tell them about seeker effectiveness?
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by Aditya_V »

I think we are forgetting some events on 26-Feb-19 and 27-Feb-19

1) IAF sucessfully hit targets and PAF failed inspite of prior warning
2) PAF fired multiple Amraams and failed to get Avenger 1 Su-30 MKI
3) PAF fired multiple Amraams at the citiation Wing Commander Abhinandan- not one Amraam scoring a hit. quote "one of the enemy aircraft fired multiple advanced BVR missiles, one of which hit his aircraft forcing him to eject in enemy territory."
4) All PAF ordinance missed- we can belive they used their limited most expensive ordinance to miss instead of Dumb bombs
5) PAF still lost an advanced F-16D to Mig 21 Bison when the Bison was outnumbered
6) After those few minutes PAF completely retreated and Wing Commander was announced to be released within a day, which was dragged out for 3 days after announcement- clearly indicating it was done out of fear and not will.
7) while Indian airspace was open , Paki airspace was severly restricted for 4 months with Isloo to Karachi flights, lahore to Karachi flights all went to hug the Afgan border and return in circuitous flights.
8] PA tanks on 28-Feb-19 in Sialkot were heavily intermingling in Civilian areas indicating they knew the PAf could not protect them
9) Visits of IAF aircraft to the border in Mar-19 went unanswered.

All this suggests PAF was shocked, multiple Amraam misses were unheard off, this was before , Rafale with Meteor, DerbyER, Python V 5 on Tejas, Astra 1 Induction on Su-30 plus 400 more R-77 (what version M-1 or AE open to debate) and 300 more R73E. Ideally Astra-2 and SFDR in numbers will be better.

But for PAF the results on 26-Feb-19 and 27-Feb-19 were bad now it got worse. Imagine an Su-30 launching R-77 AE at Mach 2(forget the more modern missiles) from high Altitude would cause a lot of problems for the PAF- which had the ideal situation for a few minutes on 27-Feb-19.
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by Rakesh »

Rishirishi wrote:PAF was at an advantage with the AMRAM.
Not true and has been refuted a number of times on this very thread.
Rishirishi wrote:Meteor is supposed to be better, but only found on a handfull of Rafaels...
Again not true. The Meteor is better, primarily thanks to its ramjet engine. There are other areas of superiority as well over the AIM-120C5.

And it is Rafale, not Rafael. The latter is an Israeli defence company.
Rishirishi wrote:Astra is unproven and has a russian seeker, IDerby ER may be a match for the Amram. Don't think India has the comfortable edge we wish.
If Astra is unproven, then so would be the Meteor and the Derby ER. But that is not the way it works. KaranM has also raised an excellent point.

Please think about this (and I have mentioned this before) - if the PAF had the advantage of a longer range missile (AIM-120C5) how did Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman come that close to a PAF F-16 that he could visually sight the plane, then confirm that fact to his fighter controller, locked a R-73 close combat missile onto that F-16 and then successfully shoot it down? None of this should have ever occurred and the Wing Commander should have been shot well before he came even close to that F-16.

I would suggest you study up on how BVR combat is conducted. Range alone, means nothing. A lot of variables and tactics at play.
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by Aditya_V »

chetonzz wrote:i have something very interesting...from an old youtube video

https://youtu.be/6EEI07q2JYY?list=FL8Vp ... gvoQ&t=148

the IAF MiG-21 Bison upgrade which was based on Russian MiG-21-93...is showcased here with IRST sensor also...basically this upgrade was supposed to be borrowing a lot of stuff from MiG-29s into MiG-21 (bubble cockpit, KOPYO radar, HMS etc.)
Very Interesting

This along with HMCS probably shocked the Pakis, with 4 F-16's being engaged by Mig 21 Bisons and multiple Amraams fired on 27-Feb-19, it was 1 Bison for 1 F16, if only that 1 Amraam also missed on 27-Feb-19, the Propoganda fig leaf would also have been blown.
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by Rakesh »

The Print article by Shekhar Gupta on air battle after Balakot airstrikes peddles faulty analysis, half truths and whole lies
https://theperspective.co.in/the-print- ... hole-lies/
By Rohit Vats, 26 August 2021
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by YashG »

Rakesh wrote:The Print article by Shekhar Gupta on air battle after Balakot airstrikes peddles faulty analysis, half truths and whole lies
https://theperspective.co.in/the-print- ... hole-lies/
By Rohit Vats, 26 August 2021
Very nicely written article.
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by parshuram »

Very Intresting Details shared in Manan Bhatt ‘s Book

Balakot Airstrikes

1 Avenger 1 actually fired shots at F-16, who nearly got his life spared

2 . Detailed account of F-16 downing

3 WINCO Abhi Bison downing and the situation around it

https://imgur.com/a/9f2CTJ1
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by Vivek K »

Thanks for posting. Great narrative of the action. I wonder why Abhi's Mig-21 lost airspeed at a critical point - just for my knowledge.
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by Rakesh »

What a beautiful sequence of events. Well written.
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by hnair »

Indeed very detailed stuff. Thank you parshuram!
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by Bala Vignesh »

Is it just me or does the writing lean heavily towards the kind of dramatization and language usage scene in poor Hollywood\Bollywood recreations?

No denying it provides interesting glimpses into what was probably happening in that quick and brutal melee but i somehow feel there is a lot of masala and tadka added to the narration here.
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by hnair »

Bala Vignesh, are you trying to do the job of pakis by casting aspersions about sensationalism on the most detailed narration yet of the events from open source ?

Why? Why do we have to suddenly go all Roger Ebert on a good narration that is for a change, more understandable for a common man than a transcript? In every recent conflict with China or Pakis, we start becoming self-critical of our folks’ official narrative, much before the pakis or Chinese open their mouths after the beat downs. Balakote(where is the damage and why are pakis saying we missed?) and Galwan (where is the confirmation of dead from chinese ?) come to mind. Net result is it becomes a divisive political issue when it should not be.

No more on this film critic mode here. Enjoy the juicy details and move on
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by parshuram »

Bala Vignesh wrote:Is it just me or does the writing lean heavily towards the kind of dramatization and language usage scene in poor Hollywood\Bollywood recreations?

No denying it provides interesting glimpses into what was probably happening in that quick and brutal melee but i somehow feel there is a lot of masala and tadka added to the narration here.
That is actually disrespectful to the author who himself is a decorated IN veteran . Book is well researched and cover details which atleast to me were not available publicly

PAF Order of Battle
https://imgur.com/a/znpC9VI

How WINCO Abhi was subjected to physical and mental torture

https://imgur.com/a/IL1QImZ

These are immaculate details , One can’t dramatise such precise pointers
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by Jayram »

Ordered the book to my parents address in India. Looking forward to reading it in time.
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by Karan M »

Bala Vignesh wrote:Is it just me or does the writing lean heavily towards the kind of dramatization and language usage scene in poor Hollywood\Bollywood recreations?

No denying it provides interesting glimpses into what was probably happening in that quick and brutal melee but i somehow feel there is a lot of masala and tadka added to the narration here.
I suspect that us because has tried his best to elaborate on the data given to him in a dramatic fashion and the editorial control should have been more precise.

It's OK if you want to wait for more details too.
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