MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

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Karan M
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by Karan M »

hnair wrote:Bala Vignesh, are you trying to do the job of pakis by casting aspersions about sensationalism on the most detailed narration yet of the events from open source ?

Why? Why do we have to suddenly go all Roger Ebert on a good narration that is for a change, more understandable for a common man than a transcript? In every recent conflict with China or Pakis, we start becoming self-critical of our folks’ official narrative, much before the pakis or Chinese open their mouths after the beat downs. Balakote(where is the damage and why are pakis saying we missed?) and Galwan (where is the confirmation of dead from chinese ?) come to mind. Net result is it becomes a divisive political issue when it should not be.

No more on this film critic mode here. Enjoy the juicy details and move on
To be honest, the issue has always been the services lack of an IW and PR culture. Hopefully things will change going forward. I am not going to post more on the clash itself and this account (why do the Pakis job for them as you said) because hopefully more details will emerge from the desi FP community.

The details on the entire clash have been so heavily sanitized, and that there is no official narrative beyond limited details released, that it becomes easy for Pakis to discount the details released by non official sources which aren't precise, especially when written with dramatic flair. Here the book publishers are to blame, editorial choices can swing the entire tone and tenor of the book.
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by Bala Vignesh »

Thank you Karan ji, for elaborating on the point i was trying to make.
I am in no way commenting on what is written and the research on it that preceded the writing. My comment was merely on the style and flair used in the writing, which appeared a tad dramatized.
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by Karan M »

That's likely the publishers deliberate choice so as to make it more relatable to the average public and push more copies. BRF is a different matter. I've ordered a copy, to get more context as to what the author is describing beyond the pages Parshuram has posted.
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by nachiket »

The style and flair is necessary to make it interesting for the average reader. Not everyone reading it is going to be a Mil Forum BRFite eager to read even a seemingly boring monotonous piece if it contains hitherto unknown details. I would fault the editor though for not doing a better job fixing the language a bit.
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by LakshmanPST »

parshuram wrote:Very Intresting Details shared in Manan Bhatt ‘s Book

Balakot Airstrikes

1 Avenger 1 actually fired shots at F-16, who nearly got his life spared

2 . Detailed account of F-16 downing

3 WINCO Abhi Bison downing and the situation around it

https://imgur.com/a/9f2CTJ1
Two questions...
The books states that Su30s fired gun shots from its cannon at F16s...
When did Su30s and F16s come so close that they're within range of their guns...? I thought they're at BVR ranges...
If they had come so close, why didn't Su30s fire R77 or even R73...?
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by sidp »

LakshmanPST wrote:
Two questions...
The books states that Su30s fired gun shots from its cannon at F16s...
When did Su30s and F16s come so close that they're within range of their guns...? I thought they're at BVR ranges...
If they had come so close, why didn't Su30s fire R77 or even R73...?
I had the exact same thoughts. This specific point made the whole narration look like a fiction story.
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by Karan M »

Let's read the book before jumping to a conclusion, there may be missing context. Fingers crossed.
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by parshuram »

Very same question was also asked by me to Author . And here is his response from my personal interaction with him

Thank you <withholding my real name as i am not allowed to do so> bhai for your kind complements.
Yes the question you have asked is a very valid one and has hunted every defence lover.
The answer lies in ACM Dhanoa Sir's statement when he said, 'Rafale would have made a huge difference."

It is open to BRFites learned interpretations

[Added Later] :: Book also has reference to PAF F-16’s Radars used on Feb 27 Air Raid being AESA …
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by nachiket »

If I understand what he means, it might explain why no R-77's were fired but it wouldn't explain why no R-73 was fired if the aircraft were in gun range.
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by chetak »

Karan M wrote:
hnair wrote:Bala Vignesh, are you trying to do the job of pakis by casting aspersions about sensationalism on the most detailed narration yet of the events from open source ?

Why? Why do we have to suddenly go all Roger Ebert on a good narration that is for a change, more understandable for a common man than a transcript? In every recent conflict with China or Pakis, we start becoming self-critical of our folks’ official narrative, much before the pakis or Chinese open their mouths after the beat downs. Balakote(where is the damage and why are pakis saying we missed?) and Galwan (where is the confirmation of dead from chinese ?) come to mind. Net result is it becomes a divisive political issue when it should not be.

No more on this film critic mode here. Enjoy the juicy details and move on
To be honest, the issue has always been the services lack of an IW and PR culture. Hopefully things will change going forward. I am not going to post more on the clash itself and this account (why do the Pakis job for them as you said) because hopefully more details will emerge from the desi FP community.

The details on the entire clash have been so heavily sanitized, and that there is no official narrative beyond limited details released, that it becomes easy for Pakis to discount the details released by non official sources which aren't precise, especially when written with dramatic flair. Here the book publishers are to blame, editorial choices can swing the entire tone and tenor of the book.
The forces will never come out with chapter and verse of any operation. They are quite simply not allowed to do so.

and moreover, IW and PR don't exist in the operational details context.

A best, there is only a bare and brief statement of fact, period

the vociferous and public outcries for proof is a well polished ploy to force the govt to come out with operational details, which, obviously, it will not and no govt will.

democracy, the forces, and NATSEC don't ever mix.

The forces and the MOD are under heavy restrictions about when and who they can speak with.

Many fundamental rights of the forces are abrogated and rightfully so.
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by Karan M »

parshuram wrote:Very same question was also asked by me to Author . And here is his response from my personal interaction with him

Thank you <withholding my real name as i am not allowed to do so> bhai for your kind complements.
Yes the question you have asked is a very valid one and has hunted every defence lover.
The answer lies in ACM Dhanoa Sir's statement when he said, 'Rafale would have made a huge difference."

It is open to BRFites learned interpretations

[Added Later] :: Book also has reference to PAF F-16’s Radars used on Feb 27 Air Raid being AESA …
The PAF F-16s don't have any AESA. They have the APG-68 v(9) MSA.
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by Karan M »

chetak wrote:
Karan M wrote:
To be honest, the issue has always been the services lack of an IW and PR culture. Hopefully things will change going forward. I am not going to post more on the clash itself and this account (why do the Pakis job for them as you said) because hopefully more details will emerge from the desi FP community.

The details on the entire clash have been so heavily sanitized, and that there is no official narrative beyond limited details released, that it becomes easy for Pakis to discount the details released by non official sources which aren't precise, especially when written with dramatic flair. Here the book publishers are to blame, editorial choices can swing the entire tone and tenor of the book.
The forces will never come out with chapter and verse of any operation. They are quite simply not allowed to do so.

and moreover, IW and PR don't exist in the operational details context.

A best, there is only a bare and brief statement of fact, period

the vociferous and public outcries for proof is a well polished ploy to force the govt to come out with operational details, which, obviously, it will not and no govt will.

democracy, the forces, and NATSEC don't ever mix.

The forces and the MOD are under heavy restrictions about when and who they can speak with.

Many fundamental rights of the forces are abrogated and rightfully so.
Well then they better learn how to message their operations. There is no point in striking hard yet letting the opponent walk away spreading FUD, claiming victory. Otherwise we could have ensured the opponent was so embarrassed in front of its domestic audience so as to think twice about engaging in such antics again. We can never kill enough jihad short of all out conflict. However destabilising the Paki regime is a whole different ball game. Can't let civilians do IW on behalf of the forces, few will be suited. Better that the services run these ops deciding what to reveal and what not to, with civilians assisting them.
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by Karan M »

nachiket wrote:If I understand what he means, it might explain why no R-77's were fired but it wouldn't explain why no R-73 was fired if the aircraft were in gun range.
I don't buy the first explanation either. Ive heard entirely otherwise and the IAF has shown no urgency in making any corrective procurement if the first hypothesis was true.
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by LakshmanPST »

parshuram wrote:Very same question was also asked by me to Author . And here is his response from my personal interaction with him

Thank you <withholding my real name as i am not allowed to do so> bhai for your kind complements.
Yes the question you have asked is a very valid one and has hunted every defence lover.
The answer lies in ACM Dhanoa Sir's statement when he said, 'Rafale would have made a huge difference."

It is open to BRFites learned interpretations
The only explanation here is that Su30's PESA radars would have been jammed which I doubt would have happened...
Even if we assume that PAF jammed our Su30 radars, still R73s would have been fired atleast...
[Added Later] :: Book also has reference to PAF F-16’s Radars used on Feb 27 Air Raid being AESA …
AFAIK, PAF F16s do not have an AESA radar, unless US secretly upgraded their jets...
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by Karan M »

LakshmanPST wrote:
parshuram wrote:Very same question was also asked by me to Author . And here is his response from my personal interaction with him

Thank you <withholding my real name as i am not allowed to do so> bhai for your kind complements.
Yes the question you have asked is a very valid one and has hunted every defence lover.
The answer lies in ACM Dhanoa Sir's statement when he said, 'Rafale would have made a huge difference."

It is open to BRFites learned interpretations
The only explanation here is that Su30's PESA radars would have been jammed which I doubt would have happened...
Even if we assume that PAF jammed our Su30 radars, still R73s would have been fired atleast...
[Added Later] :: Book also has reference to PAF F-16’s Radars used on Feb 27 Air Raid being AESA …
AFAIK, PAF F16s do not have an AESA radar, unless US secretly upgraded their jets...
At the range a gun is used, good luck jamming a monster like Bars. Let's just say the radar wasn't the issue at least per a very credible authority. What was, is being fixed.

Anyhow I have a copy underway, let me read it and check what the context is.
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by nachiket »

Karan M wrote: I don't buy the first explanation either. Ive heard entirely otherwise and the IAF has shown no urgency in making any corrective procurement if the first hypothesis was true.
I didn't buy it either but giving benefit of the doubt and assuming it is true even then it doesn't answer the second question.
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by Karan M »

Yes, precisely.
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by parshuram »

Karan M wrote:
parshuram wrote:
[Added Later] :: Book also has reference to PAF F-16’s Radars used on Feb 27 Air Raid being AESA …
The PAF F-16s don't have any AESA. They have the APG-68 v(9) MSA.
Yep, That is what I knew as well , till I read the book . Author did put a disclaimer about book being act of fiction only :wink: .

There is another IAF Mig29 veteran I raised this point about PAF F-16 using AESA. His reply was we live in same world where Americans and Turks do ….

I am just putting words out here , Not saying they are true or …mere
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by YashG »

Karan M wrote:At the range a gun is used, good luck jamming a monster like Bars. Let's just say the radar wasn't the issue at least per a very credible authority. What was, is being fixed.
Is that SDRs being fixed? SDR procurement was blamed but only for abhi afaik.

Also unlikely that paf f16 will get an aesa upgrade clandestinely. Turkey operates c/d version. Aesa versions are operated by rocaf. Giving paf f16s access to apg aesa versions is like giving china access to it. Not good for both rocaf and usaf even.
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by Karan M »

parshuram wrote:
Karan M wrote:
The PAF F-16s don't have any AESA. They have the APG-68 v(9) MSA.
Yep, That is what I knew as well , till I read the book . Author did put a disclaimer about book being act of fiction only :wink: .

There is another IAF Mig29 veteran I raised this point about PAF F-16 using AESA. His reply was we live in same world where Americans and Turks do ….

I am just putting words out here , Not saying they are true or …mere
What the..fiction?

Turks dont have AESA fighter radars yet afaik.

US restricts the sale to close allies after undertaking a detailed analysis of geopol interests, and tech leakage. PAF is using MSA fighter radars, is scouting for AESA for JF-17. Erieye is AESA though but a surveillance radar.
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by nachiket »

Even USAF F-16's don't have AESA radars. Only UAE's Block 60's have the APG-80 AESA. Quite fitting since they financed the development of the Block-60 along with the radar itself.
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by YashG »

nachiket wrote:Even USAF F-16's don't have AESA radars. Only UAE's Block 60's have the APG-80 AESA. Quite fitting since they financed the development of the Block-60 along with the radar itself.
Some us f16s will have or have same aesa as the rocaf f16s. This an-apg 83. UAE has an-apg 80 or 81 iirc.
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by chetak »

Karan M wrote:
chetak wrote:
The forces will never come out with chapter and verse of any operation. They are quite simply not allowed to do so.

and moreover, IW and PR don't exist in the operational details context.

A best, there is only a bare and brief statement of fact, period

the vociferous and public outcries for proof is a well polished ploy to force the govt to come out with operational details, which, obviously, it will not and no govt will.

democracy, the forces, and NATSEC don't ever mix.

The forces and the MOD are under heavy restrictions about when and who they can speak with.

Many fundamental rights of the forces are abrogated and rightfully so.
Well then they better learn how to message their operations. There is no point in striking hard yet letting the opponent walk away spreading FUD, claiming victory. Otherwise we could have ensured the opponent was so embarrassed in front of its domestic audience so as to think twice about engaging in such antics again. We can never kill enough jihad short of all out conflict. However destabilising the Paki regime is a whole different ball game. Can't let civilians do IW on behalf of the forces, few will be suited. Better that the services run these ops deciding what to reveal and what not to, with civilians assisting them.
this is a pointless discussion.

the messaging by the forces is unmistakable and explicit when the mission is completed, per the orders received from the civilians. Thereafter, the civilians manage the show, IW or PR or whatever. There are global strategic and diplomatic implications that the forces are not a party to. Only the civilians have the big picture.

this is the standard and almost worldwide policy of most of the armed forces and they have to answer to their superior civilian authorities.

ops details are politically and diplomatically sifted and allowed to be revealed by the civilians and thereafter, only the approved text is parroted by the uniformed.

That is always how it has been and there has never been an exception. India will certainly not be the exception

Had the whole truth of the 1962 debacle come out would neverwho have won any more elections. The ops details are still classified by order of the civilians, and almost 60 years have passed. That rascal menon, among many others, including neverwho, deserved to be hanged from the lamp post, and BTW, some of the guilty would have looked resplendent in their uniforms

ditto for the shimla agreement. All is quiet on the western front: by civilian order

or do you think that every minute detail of these clusterf(ks are not known to the forces

or after 26/11, which bunch of slimy civilians stopped an already detailed attack that was planned, primed, and ready to go. Did anyone hear a peep out of the forces then.

why was there no IW and PR at the time ('62 and 26/11) or was a dangled nobel simply too attractive and so desperately coveted.

while bye-den and his commie pals are gumming up the works and making the shady deals with the taliban, don't we all know that their forces have a very different story to tell.

why are they all quiet.

And the one marine officer who publicly pointed out the responsibility and criminal culpability of joe bye-den and his incompetent gang that got so many amerikis needlessly killed, wasn't he fired.....
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/drapr007/status/145 ... 42155?s=20 ---> Hero of Post Balakot airstrikes operations, Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthman (VC) who shot down PAF F-16 on 27th Of February 2019 with his MiG-21 Bison promoted as Group Captain.

Image
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by arvin »

No doubt success at Balakot would have also played a role here. LM and Rafael have signed an agreement to jointly develop, market, manufacture and support the SPICE 250 weapon system for sale in US.

https://www.aerotechnews.com/blog/2021/ ... -military/
Rafael’s SPICE (Smart, Precise Impact and Cost-Effective) is a family of stand-off, autonomous, air-to-surface weapon systems that provide affordable precision in a GPS-denied environment.
This is the first time SPICE 250 has been available for sale to the U.S. military.
The addition of SPICE 250 builds on a 2019 teaming agreement, where Lockheed Martin and Rafael agreed to jointly market SPICE 1000 and SPICE 2000 guidance kits for U.S. sale.
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by brar_w »

Lockheed's primary competitors all have operational weapons in this class (SDB-I for Boeing, and SDB-II for Raytheon) so this is a natural thing for Lockheed to market as the US buys a lot of munitions in this class and since there are two competitors the US services aren't going to pay LM to develop something from scratch. Same for some of the larger form factors where its competitors already have operational systems that Lockheed would want to offer an alternative to and compete. They have a commercial teaming arrangement with Rafael and have been marketing Spice at AFA events for a while now so this is just expanding the product list to cover other elements in the family. So far there are no requirements to compete and the Spice 250 does not fit into the SDB-II all-weather, GPS denied requirement for the USAF which mandated a tri-mode seeker (part of the reason LM wasn't in the original competition).
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by KiranM »

Not sure if haram here, but uploaded a week back and interesting to visualise the sequence of events.
https://youtu.be/cvoPWZIZmOc
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by Aditya_V »

Group Captain Abhinandan awarded Vir Chakra today

One can here the events on why he is being awarded, if you hear the narration, which is similair to his citation, it seems there was an F-16 in AMbush position waiting to fire more Amraams at Avenger -1 and other IAF Aircraft, he not dispersed PAf attack formations but also one of the F-16's waiting for the Ambush, after that 1 BVR missile hit his aircraft

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by SinghS »

Did the PAF deploy any dedicated jammer during 27th Feb encounter?
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by Aditya_V »

They claim to but Group Captain Abhinandan citation and Vir Chakra ceremony clearly state he communicated to other IAF fighters and GCR regarding PAF ambush positions. PAF had to state the total jamming story as they could not say he came there and took down a F16
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by ShivS »

Would it be fair to say that the Su30’s defensive suite performed better than expected while the offensive component disappointed?
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by Aditya_V »

Please see the PIB Release on his citation, we dont know ROE That day, I suspect it gave PAF to Fire their Amraams as the IAF could fire if they crossed the LOC or fired first- a peacetime ROE since we were not officially at war- this gave PAF the advantage for 5 mins after which they did a SWIFT RETREAT and if GOI, IAF wanted the Pakistani Army was at thier mercy, I believe the Pakistani Army believed the PAF had done some damage and retreated, thats thier T-80 tanks started to mingle with civilian traffic.

https://static.pib.gov.in/WriteReadData ... 112211.pdf

Read page 8

Summary would be

1) IAF detected a formation of JF-17 and F-16s heading towards the LOC
2) Group Captain and Wingman on ORP readiness were some of the IAF aircraft for response
3) Using Air intercept radar he detected a F-16 in ambush position- not detected by IAF Ground radars or IAF AEW or AWACS because of the way the intervening Mountain ranges occur. And warned other IAF pilots to this threat(Clearly he was not jammed at this point). I think this was a surprise for Avenger -1, probably the Siddiqui chap or 2 seater F-16 which went down not clear? My personal gut feeling is that this was the Siddiqui guy who fired the a surprise Amraam at SU-30 Avenger-1, when 2 SU-30's were engaging another formation of 4 F-16's
4) As the other 3 F-16's no drop LGB close to LOC, Group Captain and his wingman decide to cross the LOC and engage all the offensive formations of the PAF- this throws PAF attacking aircraft in chaos- with Mirage III/V and JF-17 dropping their H-4 Bombs and 83REK drops prematurely making sure they miss their targets and the F-16 who dropped their LGB's retreat instead of providing the Laser guidance till the target - Naushera BHQ was hit.
5) Then he perused a F-16 and got it with a R-73 Missile, but one F-16's fired MULTIPLE Amraams- a very important point- this Multiple BVR missiles from 1 F-16, notice the exact words in the citation and Vir chakra, this to me indicates none of the F-16's were in a real position to target Abhinandan or his wingman, the PAF pilot took a gamble outside the ideal parameters - possibly boresight limit of Amraams and fired the loadout in the general direction of the 2 Bison aircraft , and 1 missile hit.

After which PAF retreated, after using up 4 H-4 Bombs, 3 LGB's and 4 83REK bombs, Firing 4 Amraams at Su-30, Multiple Amraams and MIg 21 Bisons and then running away for a 1 Bison kill and 1 F-16 loss when they chose to attack.

by Logic it means they were badly hit on 26-Feb-19 morning and some ISI honchos perished in the Balakot pigsty and something was hit in Muzafarabad and Chakoti, PAF wanted to hit back badly and came up short.

Jammu -Srinagar flights flew normally, whereas from after 27-Feb-19 for 4 months Karachi Lahore flights all went to circutus routes to the Afghan border protected by USAF. That itself tells what happened, and people who remember in Kargil will know Group Captain Abhinandan would have been released in 2 days unless Pakis desperately needed to ski Downhill.

and you can see Pakistani Tanks hiding behind a Civilian houses near Sialkot



This one is completely destroying the roads, no attempt to segregate from Civilians, which means they expected that the PAF would have caused IA casualties and they now know the PAF has retreated and they are exposed.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by SinghS »

ShivS wrote:Would it be fair to say that the Su30’s defensive suite performed better than expected while the offensive component disappointed?
I suspect the AHQ never gamed that Pakis would respond in this manner. If they had gamed it, the outcome could have been different. It was a brilliant planning, courage and audacity on part of Pakis and complacency on our part which allowed them to go unmauled.

Su30's situation was that of a lone lion caught among a pack of wild hounds. Abhinandan, was the surprise package for the Pakis. It was Nirmal jit Singh Sekhon moment, with the difference that Abhinandan's actions allowed Su30s to bounce back.

Overall lack of preparation & situation gaming by the top brass. This also is evident in the way the Mi-17 was killed in friendly fire.

This is my personal armchair assessment with my limited knowledge.
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by ShivS »

Yes, whatever happened between the Su30s, Bisons and F16s is not clear with many details not public, however it does seem that our response was lacking that day.

Worse the PAF seems to have had an ability to guess our responses and SOPs - that’s equally scary. They knew when the AWACS would leave station, they knew there would be be a gap before coverage resumed.

CAP was just 4 aircraft. It was Sq Ldr Agarwal’s initiative to scramble the Bisons that added some more cover for the Su30, but the response seems to have been too judgement dependent. It should have been far more rules based.
shaun
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by shaun »

Discussed n times !! PAF is not a rav tag force . They can bring local air superiority for a very short period of time but in the process achieving zero ground hits with multi dollar munitions and also losing one of their best AC . No fly zone over a period of 4 months with economic implication is another aspect.

That local air superiority some what negated with s400 coming online.
uddu
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by uddu »

Please make it a habit to post news from official sources and links and don't give traffic to third party.
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by Rony »

uddu wrote:Please make it a habit to post news from official sources and links and don't give traffic to third party.
The lady's voice and use of shudh sanskritized Hindi instead of b@stardized Hindi-Urdu is very pleasant to hear. sorry for the OT
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by Karan M »

ShivS wrote:Would it be fair to say that the Su30’s defensive suite performed better than expected while the offensive component disappointed?
There is too much confusion on this forum despite tons of info posted. Abhis citation was posted earlier as well.

A simple version. Two Flankers were on CAP. One arrived earlier than the other and was low on fuel and had to return earlier than the other. Even so while they were both on station, they were fired upon by 4 Vipers (total of 8, four in lead formation and four behind) who took advantage of SOP of arriving close to the border and not engaging in aggressive acts. By having built up speed, and being at greater height, and having weapons 20% longer ranged they had the virtue of forcing the Flankers on the defensive. The first four launched first. The Flankers could not stay in place or even retaliate as if they did so, they would be bracketed by AAMs. Some three AMRAAMs were launched on them. The Flankers defeated all three. Meanwhile the Mirages up north were also engaged in a similar BVR battle with the JF-17 escort accompanying the Mirage strike package, but the JF-+17s couldn't or wouldn't get close enough to launch on them.

So Avenger 1 despite the odds decided staying defensive was not an option, and undertook a terrific attack on the Vipers. He went to afterburner and raced towards the Vipers to get within a fire and forget missile attack on them. That way he could launch and yet go cold immediately. By doing so, he breached the AMRAAMs minimum abort range, ie he entered its NEZ. His charge unnerved the leading formation of Vipers who went cold. Another Viper from the second formation launched on him, he defeated that and raced out of danger - one can imagine the skill and aggression of the crew, balanced by a literal real time appreciation of the different weapon kinematics and doing exactly what was required.

By this time the IACCS had picked up the second bunch of low flying Vipers and the strike element they were protecting and per SOP and vectored Abhi into the fight, plus other Bisons, other scrambles were underway at airbases further afar. Abhi and his Wingman and the others arrive and their low alt flight was masked by the terrain, throwing the Vipers and AEW&CS into a tizzy. A Viper had actually briefly crossed /approached the LoC to either pick up BDA data on the LGB/H2-H4 strikes (the Flankers had disrupted the whole process and it had all gone haywire) or ambush Avenger formation. Abhi detected the lower flying Vipers with his AI, and we all know what happened thereafter.

Instead of breaking off as the Viper and its accompanying formation went back into PoK, he chased it across informing the IACCS that he was doing so, and confirming the Vipers attempt to come in low. The intermittent communication jamming meant he didn't hear instructions he was crossing the LoC and to break off. The Bison doesn't have a moving map display either, for him to take a quick look and figure out his location. He didn't have the time to do the manual correlation bit either. He was focused on using his AI radar to detect a target, and use his missile armament in passive mode to get a surprise launch.

His Wingman did get the message, and started a maneuver to break away back across the border, assuming Abhi would too, in the process, defeating an AMRAAM launched at him. Its very possible he saw his RWR spike and knew he didn't have an option either.

However, Abhi got tone on his missile armament, having used his radar to detect where the targets were, and to cue his seeker, launched, took down a Viper and got hit by an AMRAAM soon thereafter. Even as he was on afterburner racing back. His missile took out a high flying two seater Viper which literally disintegrated at altitude, forming a debris cloud visible from the ground and the two pilots, one likely wounded by the R-73, ejected. Their parachute colors were very similsr to that of the Indian tricolor and on landing they were likely attacked by their own people and taken to CMH. ISPR started it's cover up.

To add:

Credit for digging out all this goes to sources like BRF member Sqdn Ldr Sameer Joshi, AM Hari Nair, AVM Arjun Subramaniam and CAS rtd Dhanoa and our very own Deejay. I am just pulling together the information to give a big picture view. The real credit belongs to these folks for doing the hard spade work.
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by SinghS »

Karan M wrote:
Instead of breaking off as the Viper and its accompanying formation went back into PoK, he chased it across informing the IACCS that he was doing so, and confirming the Vipers attempt to come in low. The intermittent communication jamming meant he didn't hear instructions he was crossing the LoC and to break off.
I am curious to know, which asset did PAF deploy; that caused the intermittent communication jamming?

We all know that SDR was ordered in the aftermath. Future war is going to be dictated by the levels of information fusion and secure data links with more than enough bandwidth. It will also be dictated by early intelligence and breaking the communication chain.

If we look at the course of events, following stands out: the air-warriors, battle managers and controllers were simply the best. The planners were lethargic. The MOD- less said, the better. Dharmics have a tradition of saving the day by individual brilliance, whereas higher management is always caught pants down. We lacked enough surveillance of paki landmass, advance intelligence and planning for aftermath, once we bombed Pakis.

What is bothering me are: did we not know in advance that they have something with which they could jam us? Why did we not take countermeasures? Why did we not get advance information of such a massed attack taking place with the help of AWACS & jammers; when we were sure that they would now react?

If a country with a begging bowl and no tech base can do this to IAF, even when the IAF knew that a retaliation is coming and was on a war alert; surely China can give us much much more trouble.

What stood out is that the top brass and MOD is still in fortress war mindset. Pakis were almost about to wipe one such fortress with their LGB. S-400 and radar networks are not going to bring us anything, if we don't back them up with early information, continuous surveillance and extra long range strike inside enemy landmass and on their data network. With fortress warfare, once a breach is opened by the enemy, all other strategies are going to fall like a pack of cards.
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by SidSoma »

SinghS wrote:
I am curious to know, which asset did PAF deploy; that caused the intermittent communication jamming?
........
We lacked enough surveillance of paki landmass, advance intelligence and planning for aftermath, once we bombed Pakis.

What is bothering me are: did we not know in advance that they have something with which they could jam us? Why did we not take countermeasures? Why did we not get advance information of such a massed attack taking place with the help of AWACS & jammers; when we were sure that they would now react?

If a country with a begging bowl and no tech base can do this to IAF, even when the IAF knew that a retaliation is coming and was on a war alert; surely China can give us much much more trouble.

What stood out is that the top brass and MOD is still in fortress war mindset. Pakis were almost about to wipe one such fortress with their LGB. S-400 and radar networks are not going to bring us anything, if we don't back them up with early information, continuous surveillance and extra long range strike inside enemy landmass and on their data network.
In Addition to this : This strategy of achieving local superiority is an intutive one for a weaker opponent to use on stronger opponent. In fact it is shown in this very famous war game of the US (https://www.wearethemighty.com/mighty-t ... y-and-won/). How was this scenerio missed?

There also seems to be intelligence failure wherein PAK war games and exercises are not observed. With this many aircraft involved, surely this sort of maneuvering has to be practiced. For E.g. one IAF war game was conducted to show how our forces can be quickly shifted from Eastern Theater to Western Theater (open source announcement in media by CAS)

Question for Gurus: in absence of S-400 and Meteor. How can such a situation be countered (please discuss as armchair marshalls only)
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