MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 10 Mar 2019 08:20

That hand-drawn MiG-21 and Trishul are awesome!

Yes, its like the Sura HMS, which with the R-73 is a nasty fellow as the poor F-16 found out.

A rare photograph of a Helmet Mounted R-73 Sight worn by a MiG-29 pilot. The Russian designed Shchel-3UM HMD design is fit to the ZSh-5 series helmet. Photo Courtesy: Indian Air Force

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Galle ... t.jpg.html

This is the Sura.

http://www.arsenalcdb.com.ua/index.php/ ... on-systems

A simulator showing how it works.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcxGWz7gq3U

What your eyes see, the missile tracks. However, obviously if you take off bore shots at real extreme angles, the chances of a hit are lower. Which is why Abhinandan maneuvered for the best possible Pk, got a lock & then fired!!

krishna_krishna · Post by **krishna_krishna** » 10 Mar 2019 09:19

Karan M wrote:That hand-drawn MiG-21 and Trishul are awesome!

Good info KaranM, unfortunately this is shown as war trophy and will be paraded at some museum in karachi so would detest from showing those pics.

Unless we have some credible evidence coming out in open on downed F-16 (Not any time soon), till that point this will be psyops match that porkis won. I have no doubt that truth will come out in next 1- 3yrs however till that point this will not be much of use.

The government of the day took decision to alter status quo and to call Porki bluff on new clear bum to target the terrorist shielded within porkistan
We did launch attack and in the bargain took some hit, unless we cause more damage this will be seen by porkis as credible deterrent enforced by their fizzaliya to protect their thousand cuts policy unabated. We can hit you but you cannot respond.
Till we do something that rubs porkis nose to ground this will not get closed from at least Indian sacrifices. We lost so many brave men in recent months they need to be avenged.
Looks like government has given up on this till the election time. We had a small window and unfortunately for us this did not give us what we wanted.
Lets wait till the next round. I pray to mahakaal that our enemies end will be as bad as it can be.

Bishwa · Post by **Bishwa** » 10 Mar 2019 09:20

This is from twitter... the text says "Seeker of a R-73 missile found next to Wg Cdr Abhinandan's MiG-21 wreck."

From https://twitter.com/Aditya_G_Social/sta ... 6435372037

This video of the crash site has a white object like in this picture near the node cone
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQEiD0PrsKg

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 10 Mar 2019 09:23

Must be an unused one on one of the pylon

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 10 Mar 2019 10:13

krishna_krishna wrote:Good info KaranM, unfortunately this is shown as war trophy and will be paraded at some museum in karachi so would detest from showing those pics.

I posted that image and not Karan Saar. He responded because I know he would know more about the helmet. And I asked him to.

Let them display. Why is that causing takleef? The IAF’s job was to hit JeM camps and protect Indian airspace from potential counter strikes, which the PAF did.

In the words of former Air Chief, Raha Sir (commenting about the strikes), “Such things happen during operations. One side can’t expect to throw all the punches without receiving a few.”

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 10 Mar 2019 10:24

What exactly is to be ashamed to be of having the helmet being paraded by Pakis? Abhi valiantly fought and made a kill. There is no shame being captured and returned. All well known and above the table.

The AMRAAM relic we got, on the other hand, should be a concern for pakis, because they deny use of F16 and AMRAAM.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 10 Mar 2019 10:34

Krishna Krishna - that helmet is worth its weight in gold for us, symbolically. I say OWN the pic. Put up blogs etc all showing that VERY PIC saying here is IAF Pilots helmet with which he shot down PAF F-16D. This is how it works!

Whatever the pysops angle etc thrown around by Pakistan here, are the facts:

1.A huge Pakistani strike package was held off by a much smaller IAF interceptor force
2. Pakistan's silver bullet force of AMRAAMs failed against IAF Su-30s, so did their precious PGMs which couldn't be guided to target
3. Pakistan lost a F-16 out of its tightly rationed fleet, to a MiG-21 Bison R73E heat seeking missile, which worked just as intended. Its now scrambling to justify the use of AMRAAMs and F-16s to the US
4. An IAF Wing Commander in a MiG-21 outfought a F-16, a testimony to IAF pilot skills
5. Pakistan for all its bluster had to return the IAF pilot ASAP
6. The IAF despite a prepared PAF, went into Pakistani territory and successfully bombed its chosen target causing JeM casualties
7. IAF continues to troll the PAF by posting cheeky poems on Twitter noting they did what they had to & the PAF knows it

Now, think about this rationally. Screw the Pakistani inbreds and their backslapping about the PAF. Think from the PAFs point of view. Its a rational AF and despite its propaganda, what it has seen is that most of its silver bullets have failed. And it lost its prized asset to one of the IAF's oldest. What does that do for deterrence?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 10 Mar 2019 10:51

An old interview with Abhinandan when he used to fly the Su-30 at age 26 !

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 10 Mar 2019 10:56

This was one air battle. One! What are folks expecting? That the IAF will not lose any aircraft? Please study up on Gagan Shakti.

If this was a full blown out war, some of you would get a brain clot and die from a stroke when attrition reports start coming in.

This is how war is conducted. You will lose personnel and equipment. Stop expecting perfection. And we have an enemy whose entire nationhood is based on lies, falsehoods and propaganda.

Learn to separate the wheat from the chaff. Look at the larger picture - the thappad that Pakistan got and the fallout from it. The response to Uri could be considered a one off, if the Balakot air strikes did not take place.

India will now consistently respond - through various means - to future terrorist attacks. Helmet, no F-16 wreckage, Wing Commander Varthaman captive in Pakistan, etc is not the issue.

Stop focusing on the empty hole in the doughnut, but focus on the doughnut itself.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 10 Mar 2019 11:05

Exactly! A response dynamic has been established! This from a country that did nothing but fume in response to the Parliament attack, the Mumbai attack ......!

Narendra Modi must be given credit for setting a cost to Pakistan and to terrorists that try attacking India.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 10 Mar 2019 11:07

Modi called it a pilot project.. in short, a testbed to see how Pakistan responds. Now we know.. and we will hit back someplace else. Did Pakistan declare war on us? Nope. Its deterrence and sovereignty have been set significantly back. They can fume, propagandize all they want, but we have started on the path of imposing costs on Pakistan.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 10 Mar 2019 11:29

The biggest thing this strike has done is break down all the psyops about how poor, unprepared, underequipped, blah blah India cannot really go to war etc or do something escalatory. We have done it 3x the past few years and each time, its just set the schedule for modernising our forces etc but we have gone ahead even so. In the meantime, what has Pakistan done despite all its saber rattling? Nothing.
We are proving the point their nukes dont count for much at the sub-conventional threshold and we are defining that threshold.

nam · Post by **nam** » 10 Mar 2019 13:42

Bishwa wrote:Ah.. the old man said "Horran Kotla" not "Udan Kotla". Horran is the place where the India Today team video was on.

So we may be able to locate the place where the other two PAF parachutes landed. The old man gives some clues. Additionally the India Today team says WC Abhinandan landed 300 meters from where the Mig crashed.

Laam likely refers to Lam which is a town east of Jhangar in Naushera area. And so the area west of that all the way to POK is called Lam Valley.

Yes, I think he says Horan Kotla. Assuming the drop tank was found around the same place and the man say he saw 3 parachute, the F16 must have fallen somewhere nearby.

WC Abhi fell 300 mts near the debris and ran off towards a stream. So there must be a stream nearby. It should help us pinpoint the Mig21 impact point.

It might be a hard search, but there must be another impact point of F16 within 5-10KM radius. Based on the shadows, the Mig 21 nose is probably point towards North.

The photos of Mig21 debris were taken by 10.45 AM Pak time. The fight happened at 9.30-9.45 AM Pak time. So within 1 hour, the debris collection was started.

nam · Post by **nam** » 10 Mar 2019 13:44

Even if the F16 debris are removed, our satellites should be able to get the latest images and using WC Abhi's debrief able to come up with a impact point. Some guys in GoI hopefully should be able to figure this out.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 10 Mar 2019 13:48

Its clear why we aren't using our stuff.
- Sat pics give away our classified capability
- Having Abhi appear on TV right now and humiliate Pakistan runs the risk of ISI summarily executing our pilots in the future. They give 2 hoots about us doing the same to theirs, or count on us being humane while murdering our people to save H&D
Both sides will be re-arming and re-equipping for round 3. I hope MOF mandarins understand that having some low deficit numbers on a PPT slide may impress "economists" but need of the hour is to ramp up capabilities fast.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 10 Mar 2019 14:11

Vivek K wrote:Exactly! A response dynamic has been established! This from a country that did nothing but fume in response to the Parliament attack, the Mumbai attack ......!

Narendra Modi must be given credit for setting a cost to Pakistan and to terrorists that try attacking India.

Do you know how the morale has got boosted?
You should listen to the retired folk.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 10 Mar 2019 14:15

Sachin, that's cryptic. Can you be more specific.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 10 Mar 2019 14:28

Rakesh wrote:... If this was a full blown out war, some of you would get a brain clot and die from a stroke when attrition reports start coming in.

This is how war is conducted. You will lose personnel and equipment. Stop expecting perfection. And we have an enemy whose entire nationhood is based on lies, falsehoods and propaganda.

Learn to separate the wheat from the chaff. Look at the larger picture - the thappad that Pakistan got and the fallout from it. The response to Uri could be considered a one off, if the Balakot air strikes did not take place.

India will now consistently respond - through various means - to future terrorist attacks. Helmet, no F-16 wreckage, Wing Commander Varthaman captive in Pakistan, etc is not the issue.

Stop focusing on the empty hole in the doughnut, but focus on the doughnut itself.

Very well put.

In Surgical Strikes and Balakot, planning was fully in our hands. Imagine the 1999 Kandahar situation - where the circumstances were much more adverse. We as a nation need to execute these Balakot like pilot projects - so we can all man up and be ready when the next adverse situation comes.

nam · Post by **nam** » 10 Mar 2019 14:35

We have formally asked US to investigate violation of end user agreement. If we were not confident, we would not ask so publicly. With Aim120 debris, US cannot easily save it's munna. There is also "tiny problem" of India not buying US arms, if it tried to play smart.

So US will do the answering for us.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 10 Mar 2019 15:33

ramana wrote:Rakesh, We are failing again and again.
First was that damn database.
Now we allow scurrilous remarks on the same pilot
May I ask why YKanan and SidSoma are still on Forum?

Why blame the parrots? Blame the guy who started it! Vishnu Som's video started it. These are the real paid-media in our midst who first cast the aspersions even while he was in Pak custody.

manju · Post by **manju** » 10 Mar 2019 17:26

Karan M wrote:Get this.

.....From Kargil, 1999.

Check Squadron Leader John's comment about typical CAP missions.
https://youtu.be/Zu5gzo_wXko?t=87

This reminded of my high school buddy who dropped a few bombs on pakiland... He dies testing Saras in 2009

https://www.business-standard.com/artic ... 685_1.html

..... On March 6, 2009, two Indian Air Force test pilots, Wg Cdr Praveen Kotekoppa and Wg Cdr Dipesh Shah, with a test engineer, Sqdn Ldr Ilayaraja, were killed when the second prototype Saras craft crashed and caught fire in a field near Bidadi, about 30 km from here........

In his memory the best NCC cadet award in the school... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0AvNtws_Iw

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 10 Mar 2019 17:50

Knowledgeable people, just trying to understand if it is common for pilots to move from Su-30 to Mig-21 when many aircraft are still being inducted? Wouldn't there be a shortage of qualified pilots on Su-30? Do pilots stay current on multiple aircraft?

SidSoma · Post by **SidSoma** » 10 Mar 2019 18:25

Interesting video on R-73.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgipQ0iaKVA

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 10 Mar 2019 19:16

nam wrote:Even if the F16 debris are removed, our satellites should be able to get the latest images and using WC Abhi's debrief able to come up with a impact point. Some guys in GoI hopefully should be able to figure this out.

As indicated broadly b4, we do not need satellites to take pics of details in Pakistan. From above. They can't do diddly about Indian or US or Maldivian ability to operate fast high-flying airplanes. PAF can sit at Sargodha and "keep switching Phyirr Kontrol Radar On and Off in Anger" (exact quote from Pakis..

Neither they nor their TFTA mijjiles can go Mach 3 @120K feet.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 10 Mar 2019 19:27

ks_sachin wrote: Do you know how the morale has got boosted?
You should listen to the retired folk.

Tell us about it please.

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 10 Mar 2019 19:46

manju wrote:
This reminded of my high school buddy who dropped a few bombs on pakiland... He dies testing Saras in 2009

I feel sadness. It reminds me of such loss. One of our close friend - brother of one of my physics professor- took part in both 1965 and 1971, got MVC but died later as a test pilot.

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 10 Mar 2019 19:47

From Indian Air Force, Verified account (@IAF_MCC)
Tribute to Abhinandan - The one "who hunted the hunter"

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 10 Mar 2019 19:48

All the streets inside Edwards AFB in Yankeenadu are named after test pilots. Who died testing planes. And there are MANY streets there. A tough profession.

krishna_krishna · Post by **krishna_krishna** » 10 Mar 2019 19:54

Rakesh wrote:This was one air battle. One! What are folks expecting? That the IAF will not lose any aircraft? Please study up on Gagan Shakti.

This is my last on this, Rakesh please read my post I never said that we expect not to lose any aircraft or not have any action (response) from enemy. The fact is that when dust settles for this match at the most looks (perception to outside world (not just prokis) to have equal=equal . I am saying from larger picture perspective, we did something huge that porkies never expected however that message to drill into psyche of world that this is normal and porkis can do zilch with their chotu atum bums for Indian response to a terrorist strike would have been complete when porkis get bloody nose openly (no more conspiracy theory and false narrative). i.e JEM chief killed in airstrike and video released by @adgpi or even after loosing one aircraft air operations continued to strike (preventive measures) against other camps or missile attacks on specific targets.

Let see how much AIM-120C protects them, there will be more attacks on India after afghan theater heats up after massa departure. We need to demonstrate that now. Porkis will retaliate but are not match to what we can do to them.

As Clausewitz noted, “War is the realm of uncertainty; three quarters of the factors on which action in war is based are wrapped in a fog of greater or lesser uncertainty.”

If we separate wheat from the chaff.The ground reality is things have cooled, world powers have intervened and till elections or porkis do something stupid we are back to fire assaults and sniping operations duel at the moment.That status quo is not in our interest and we continue bleeding from thousand cut policy. Why we responded this way was exactly the reason that current status quo needs to be altered.

Right now India could not coerce Pakistan militarily at this moment, if the growth differential between Pakistan and India continues to grow, the technological asymmetry will increase to the point where strategies of coercion could kick into play. That scenario could see very different results on the ground. For instance, India will possess the anti-access, area-denial (A2/AD) S-400 system by 2020. That system is not just defensive but can also be employed in a preemptive offensive role. Typically, A2/AD systems ensure that they can deny a mission to incoming hostiles (anti-access) and ensure safety of their own area against any hostile action (area denial mode). If things do not change through engagement, we could see India use the S-400 in any future round. That would be an entirely different ballgame altogether.

This whole premise that there is a band below new clear threshold when India can punish porkis, porkis believe or try to keep things to a level where there is no band of conventional response below the threshold where our superiority can alter that balance. Till that point is demonstrated in real world multiple times this is all.....

.

chola · Post by **chola** » 10 Mar 2019 20:38

Austin wrote:An old interview with Abhinandan when he used to fly the Su-30 at age 26 !

To be perfectly honest, this video was first posted by Pakis shortly after the 27th as proof their JF-17 shot down a MKI. I blasted the Puke posting it as attempting to use another IAF pilot named Abhinandan. I did all I could to discredit the view that it was the same person.

Bishwa · Post by **Bishwa** » 10 Mar 2019 21:15

nam wrote:Yes, I think he says Horan Kotla. Assuming the drop tank was found around the same place and the man say he saw 3 parachute, the F16 must have fallen somewhere nearby.

WC Abhi fell 300 mts near the debris and ran off towards a stream. So there must be a stream nearby. It should help us pinpoint the Mig21 impact point.

The exact spot where the Mig 21 came down is known : 33°13’28.9 “N 73°57’53.3 “E.

Source : https://www.bellingcat.com/resources/ca ... n-kashmir/

Posted this here by NRao

The old man says where the 2nd and 3rd parachute came down. The 2nd he mentions a place sounding like "gede" or "gele". Can someone decipher what he said?

https://www.samaa.tv/video/2019/02/watc ... bhinandan/

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 10 Mar 2019 21:39

JTull wrote:Knowledgeable people, just trying to understand if it is common for pilots to move from Su-30 to Mig-21 when many aircraft are still being inducted? Wouldn't there be a shortage of qualified pilots on Su-30? Do pilots stay current on multiple aircraft?

All I know that it is common for Pilots to move between types as they are promoted , From that video that i posted of 2010 Abhi was a Fl Lt and on Bison he is a Wing Cdr thats 2 Rank up. He would be commanding a squadron as Winco or couple of squadrons and doing administrative roles

Most of our Chief including the Current CAS has spent most of his carrer on a Mig-21 and has the highest flying hours on the type and other top posting.

Many pilots prefer to fly Mig-21 even after flying other types in IAF because it challanges them in a good way.....pure flying skills and tested to the limits with little margin of error.

VikasM · Post by **VikasM** » 10 Mar 2019 22:56

Bishwa wrote:
nam wrote:[
Yes, I think he says Horan Kotla. Assuming the drop tank was found around the same place and the man say he saw 3 parachute, the F16 must have fallen somewhere nearby.

WC Abhi fell 300 mts near the debris and ran off towards a stream. So there must be a stream nearby. It should help us pinpoint the Mig21 impact point.

The exact spot where the Mig 21 came down is known : 33°13’28.9 “N 73°57’53.3 “E.

Source : https://www.bellingcat.com/resources/ca ... n-kashmir/

Posted this here by NRao

The old man says where the 2nd and 3rd parachute came down. The 2nd he mentions a place sounding like "gede" or "gele". Can someone decipher what he said?

https://www.samaa.tv/video/2019/02/watc ... bhinandan/

Time frame? I hear darakht and horran kotla. One shekh sahab, identifying pilot as Sikha(Sikh) . Didn't notice another name.

Bishwa · Post by **Bishwa** » 10 Mar 2019 23:05

At 4sec in https://www.samaa.tv/video/2019/02/watc ... bhinandan/

he says something like "chatri hawa me ghoom rahi thi... teen chatri.. ak chali gayi XXX ki tarfa.. ak hamari gau me giri hai..."

What is XXX that he said?

His gau is Horran Kotla

habal · Post by **habal** » 10 Mar 2019 23:06

Some Tokyo-Abudhabi, and frankfurt-dubai-taipei type flights seem determined to criss-cross over kashmir and western sindh come what may. What do they get by putting lives in danger flying into pakistan's eastern corridor.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 10 Mar 2019 23:07

Karan M wrote:Its clear why we aren't using our stuff.
- Sat pics give away our classified capability
- Having Abhi appear on TV right now and humiliate Pakistan runs the risk of ISI summarily executing our pilots in the future. They give 2 hoots about us doing the same to theirs, or count on us being humane while murdering our people to save H&D
Both sides will be re-arming and re-equipping for round 3. I hope MOF mandarins understand that having some low deficit numbers on a PPT slide may impress "economists" but need of the hour is to ramp up capabilities fast.

I think this is a good time for people from services to make noises about dwindling numbers... Public opinion will force the hand of powers that be

mmasand · Post by **mmasand** » 10 Mar 2019 23:18

habal wrote:Some Tokyo-Abudhabi, and frankfurt-dubai-taipei type flights seem determined to criss-cross over kashmir and western sindh come what may. What do they get by putting lives in danger flying into pakistan's eastern corridor.

Explained earlier, circle of flight. When there is no ADS-B radar data avilable, flightradar and other feeder sites will show the natural routing. In the paid version of FR24, you will see it shows estimated. Pak has very poor radar coverage for commercial flights as they won't permit transceivers.

Haridas · Post by **Haridas** » 11 Mar 2019 00:39

Karan M wrote:Sudeep, did that image look like a F16 drop tank, can you cross-compare?
https://youtu.be/3fIccixCTXk?t=27

This is the highest rez image i could find of the Pak (?) drop tank.
https://twitter.com/MdShafiKhatana/stat ... 96/video/1

https://twitter.com/HaridasKukkur/statu ... 13504?s=19

parshuram · Post by **parshuram** » 11 Mar 2019 00:49

https://www.newsnation.in/india-news/br ... 16589.html

Reports says Pakistani Drones tried to drop Ordnance in Rajasthan

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 11 Mar 2019 01:15

Bishwa wrote:At 4sec in https://www.samaa.tv/video/2019/02/watc ... bhinandan/

he says something like "chatri hawa me ghoom rahi thi... teen chatri.. ak chali gayi XXX ki tarfa.. ak hamari gau me giri hai..."

What is XXX that he said?

His gau is Horran Kotla

hawa mein ghum rahi thi teen chatri (three parachutes in the sky)
aek chali gayi gXXXX ki taraf (one went up towards gojra / gulpur / Mora? ..)
aek humaray horran ke gaon me giri hai (and one fell in our village of horran)

Its possible that the F16 wreckage went down in Mangla dam, which is only about 10 miles or so from the place where Abhinandana's Mig21 went down. Thats where the F16s were patrolling. There are a few villages in that general direction that can be the 'gXXXX' that the old man is saying.