MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

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Aditya_V
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by Aditya_V »

They had to abandon thier entry, the air marshal is very clear, they dropped the LGB but had to turn back when the Bisons crossed the pir panjals, the F16s could no longer lase the Targets and the bombs lost their target designation.

The F16 came right at the LoC, they need to be 10km from the target to lase the targets. This has all been documented.
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by Aditya_V »

Looking at the various videos and Air Marshal SBP Sinha explanations,Explanations at that time IAF presentation. Tufail's revelations about the PAF loving capture Indian aircraft and Pilot's, I think this is what happened before Wing Commander Abhinandan shoot down.

the 3 F-16 came to release LGB's at BHQ Rajouri at relatively high altitude, with 1 F-16D being positioned at 9000 feet to ambush any IAf aircraft, being below the Pir Panjals and mountains topography in POJK , it may not have been visible to the Mig 21 Bisons on radar till they crossed the Pir Panjals, when the Bisons crossed began crossing the Pir Panjals, the 3 F-16s turned away with the Mig 21's Bisons chasing them away. When the 4th F-16 began to engage the Bisons setting of the RWR's prior to Amraam launch, it was then that Wing Commander using the HMS in the Mig 21 Bison engaged the F-16 with a R-73 missile, since the missile launched with HMS and not through Radar cueing, the F-16 RWR would not sounded an alarm. So the F-16D which went down was most probably the aircraft which shot down the Mig-21 Bison.

Thats why the last transmission by Wing Commander Abhinandan was "R-73" Selected, it was most probably an instant response to being targeted by the F-16 while the other 3 were escaping.

https://www.dnaindia.com/india/photo-ga ... 16-2725942
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by Aditya_V »

Sameer Joshi article in Sep-19

How Pakistan planned to hit India back for Balakot — the mission, the fighters, the tactics
https://theprint.in/defence/how-pakista ... cs/291522/
This riposte by the PAF on 27 Feb 2019, was accorded the official name — OPERATION SWIFT RETORT

The PAF’s Air defence forces had the following tactical objectives for Operation Swift Retort —
1. Achieve local air superiority with Offensive Fighter Sweeps and ensure that the PAF strikes went through unscathed
2. Segregate and block the IAF Defensive Counter Air (DCA) elements — preventing them from interfering with the follow-on PAF strikes
3. Engage and shoot down IAF Defensive Counter Air (DCA) aircraft— ‘engage’ the Sukhoi Su-30MKI, ‘avoid’ the Mirage-2000I/TI’
4. Post action Barrier Combat Air Patrols(BARCAP) in POK to prevent any IAF counter-intrusion into POK
5. De-escalate once mission objectives were achieved.
The ‘deliberate’ decision to shoot down an IAF aircraft — launching air-to-air missiles from own side of Line of Control in violation of existing rules of engagements (ROE)— reflects how far the PAF is willing to go to achieve tactical surprise and psychological dominance over its bête noire and nemesis — the Indian Air Force. The PAF was upping the ante and — the IAF, oblivious to the PAF’s endgame to fire AAMs across the Line of Control — was supposed to walk right into the PAF’s trap.
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by Aditya_V »

Actually looking at the radar pic put by the IAF, one can clearly understand that the Mig -21 Bison could have launched R-77missiles at the 3 retreating F-16's , but they didnt why? We can only speculate but my suspicion MEA/GOI/IAF made 2 very big mistakes which they do not want to admit.

1) They did not want to escalate the situation
2) They completely underestimated how much the PAF and Paki public love the shooting down IAF planes without a care of the consequences where they expect international support to bail them out.

So the Mig 21 Bisons - who I don't think have an LCD screen with a moving digital map just came to scare and make the 3 F-16 retreat did not realize that a twin seater F-16 was waiting for them at a height lower than the Pir Panjals, it was the training and quick reflexes of Wing Commander Abhinandan that he reacted quickly when his RWR rang, selected R-73 missiles and cued it with his HMS at the F-16 while the Amraam was inbound. Being a passive shot , and I dont know if the F-16 had maws, they were probably trying to launch a 2nd Amraam at Squadron leader Vyas Mig 21 when they got hit by the R-73 missile.

The evidence of this in OSINT can be seen in the 2 videos

1) The Paki Mirpur video where the 1 Mig 21 Bison is going down at 16-22 seconds on can see the an aircraft engaging afterburners and heading North east ( most probably Squadron leader Vyas's Mig 21 Bison). At 1:14 seconds an aircraft releases a missile at almost the same place the earlier aircraft was 1 minute earlier ( indicating another F-16 launching a AMRAAM at the retreating Mig 21 Bison)- IAF presentation also shows both Mig 21 Bisons were at the same spot when the Mig 21 Bison and F-16 when down.

2) In Earth news video which POK deleted footage , once can see while F-16 is falling down there is a missile vapour trail disappearing which shows it was going away from the aircraft.

This is the only scenario which explains the non use of R-77's by the Mig-21 Bisons and ending up in POK when hostile aircraft ready to shoot down were about- no wonder the IAF and In turn GOI- political Leadership has been a bit cagey about the full details of 27-Feb-19 air combat. And also why PAF literally shut down their airspace for 4 months with Lahore to Karachi flights hugging the Afghan border at a huge cost which Pakistan could not afford, while things went on normally on the Indian side. It was a huge show of no confidence in the PAF ability to defend Paki territory along with acceptance that the PAF had broken a lot of accepted Rules.
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by yensoy »

^^^^ Please watch interview here:

Air Marshall Sinha has explained the situation quite clearly, and why IAF didn't fire. You may have your doubts or other theories but his version of the events does make sense.
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by Aditya_V »

Air Marshal is talking about the Su-30 MKI North of Pir panjals not firing back at the other F-16 which had fired Amraam's at the Su-30. While this was happening the Mig-21 Bison engaged the 3 F-16's which had dropped LGB's, he does not explain why the Bisons which were pretty close the 3 F-16's plus 1 waiting for Ambush did not fire their R-77.

I am not contradicting him, apart from a bit of restraint the Mig 21 Bisons could have fired R-77's at retreating F-16 after dropping LGB's- there was hardly a 10KM gap.
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by LakshmanPST »

Actually, I also always had this doubt---> "If Bisons were so close to fire R73 at retreating F16s, why didn't they fire the R77 from a distance first...?"
Your theory makes sense...

Wing Cdr. Abhinandan's Vir Chakra citation stated that both Abhinandan and Vyas did aggresive maneuvering against the F16s which forced the F16s to retreat...
Basically, the Bisons were trying to 'scare' the F16s away rather than taking them down...
This is inline with the ROE of that day, which is basically not to fire unless fired upon...
So, as soon as the RWR rang, he launched the R73...
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by yensoy »

I think firing across the border and bringing down a plane on the Paki side would have been a definite escalation and this might not have been authorized. Remember that the LGB drops by themselves might not have warranted a response without a damage assessment. Regardless all this transpired within minutes, even likely that the opportune moments for the Mig-21 to fire might have been when the LGBs were mid-air. Expecting the Mig-21 pilots to know that LGBs were indeed dropped with intent to hit across the border, and giving the go-ahead to pursue the offenders across the border is a bit much.
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by Aditya_V »

Exactly it was a few minutes back that F16 broke all rules and fired Amraams at the Su30, so the knowledge and authorization to take down PAF aircraft was not probably given, however, the PAF had kept an ambush which meant Wing Commander's firing of the R73 was more of defensive response which completely spoilt a lot of PAF plans.
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by LakshmanPST »

The thing is, most of the PAF jets were on their side of LoC... No one knew whether they were just flying the jets near the border or they're coming to attack...
If they just came near the border and IAF shotdown a jet on their side, it would have been considered as a major escalation by India... So, IAF waited for PAF to fire first...
Had PAF jets atleast crossed the border, IAF would have shot them down... But only few F16s made a shallow ingress before running away...
-
The JF17s didn't fire against the Mirages for them to respond...
The F16s fired AMRAAMs against the Su30s & ran away immediately... The Su30s didn't have a firing solution...
In the other batch of F16s, the F16 fired against MIG21 and was immediately responded by an R73 fire...
-
All in all, the lesson here is, IAF/GOI need to change the ROE for these kind of situations...
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by manjgu »

If a su30 had gone down in indian territory what would be Indian reaction? Didn't the PAF think that would be a major escalation? It looks they were hell bent on bagging a su
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by Aditya_V »

manjgu wrote:If a su30 had gone down in indian territory what would be Indian reaction? Didn't the PAF think that would be a major escalation? It looks they were hell bent on bagging a su
PAF and Pakis thought they can get international intervention and would not show up, that's why they never came near the Loc after that.
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by Roop »

Aditya_V wrote:...my suspicion MEA/GOI/IAF made 2 very big mistakes which they do not want to admit.

1) They did not want to escalate the situation
2) They completely underestimated how much the PAF and Paki public love the shooting down IAF planes without a care of the consequences where they expect international support to bail them out.
FWIW, I agree with both your suspicions, in fact I will go out on a limb and say they are obviously true.
LakshmanPST wrote:All in all, the lesson here is, IAF/GOI need to change the ROE for these kind of situations...
The lesson here is what you said, but a lot more: IAF desperately needed/needs a better BVR AAM than the R77. As proof that the IAF themselves realized that, see how quickly they went shopping in Russia for a longer-ranged missile, and the stress they laid on getting the Meteor from France and advanced variants of Astra from DRDO.
manjgu wrote:If a su30 had gone down in indian territory what would be Indian reaction? Didn't the PAF think that would be a major escalation? It looks they were hell bent on bagging a su
It's hard to know exactly what Pakis think of at any given time, but if we've learned anything at all from their past behaviour, it is this: (1) they are incredibly reckless, and (2) they always expect international opinion to support them (just look at Aditya_V's two suspicions).
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by yensoy »

^^^^ Spot on about Paki thought process (or lack thereof). 1965, 1971, Kargil, we know how they plan things out. It's all about bravado, punching the enemy regardless of whether that means the enemy will pummel you in return. If they had brought down one Su-30 and we ended up taking out Karachi harbour, they would still have glorified the first shot.
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by Karan M »

Aditya_V wrote:Air Marshal is talking about the Su-30 MKI North of Pir panjals not firing back at the other F-16 which had fired Amraam's at the Su-30. While this was happening the Mig-21 Bison engaged the 3 F-16's which had dropped LGB's, he does not explain why the Bisons which were pretty close the 3 F-16's plus 1 waiting for Ambush did not fire their R-77.

I am not contradicting him, apart from a bit of restraint the Mig 21 Bisons could have fired R-77's at retreating F-16 after dropping LGB's- there was hardly a 10KM gap.
We have been over this many times. You don't fire a R77 without radar data. And doing so alerts your opponent especially as at that close range the R77 seeker would be in constant acquisition, and the opponents RWR would be a christmas tree allowing him to scramble and avoid. Its the pilots choice which situation appropriate weapon he chooses. Abhinandan chose a weapon that allowed him near complete surprise, which was the R73E. He used the R73E seeker, saw it had a tone, launched. If he had waited and then tried to do the multi-target thing with R77s, that's a far more complex exercise and he might not even had the time to do so.
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by Karan M »

LakshmanPST wrote:The thing is, most of the PAF jets were on their side of LoC... No one knew whether they were just flying the jets near the border or they're coming to attack...
If they just came near the border and IAF shotdown a jet on their side, it would have been considered as a major escalation by India... So, IAF waited for PAF to fire first...
Had PAF jets atleast crossed the border, IAF would have shot them down... But only few F16s made a shallow ingress before running away...
-
The JF17s didn't fire against the Mirages for them to respond...
The F16s fired AMRAAMs against the Su30s & ran away immediately... The Su30s didn't have a firing solution...
In the other batch of F16s, the F16 fired against MIG21 and was immediately responded by an R73 fire...
-
All in all, the lesson here is, IAF/GOI need to change the ROE for these kind of situations...
This is an incorrect assessment of the air battle.
The JF17s and Mirages were in a game of locks so to speak. The Mirages merely conserved scarce ammo as they wanted high Pk shots. Neither side could get an overwhelming tactical advantage, to the Mirages benefit actually considering how outnumbered they were.
The F16s didn't run away. They stayed and fired multiple AMRAAMs, at least one of the Su-30s broke through the defensive screen - the missiles, and approached close enough to disrupt the F-16 formation, making one formation break and forcing the other to engage (despite how close the Su-30s and other F-16s were).
The MiG21 didnt respond to the AMRAAM fire. There is little chance Abhi would have known his wingman was fired upon, he saw the opportunity himself to take a shot, and took it.
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by Karan M »

manjgu wrote:If a su30 had gone down in indian territory what would be Indian reaction? Didn't the PAF think that would be a major escalation? It looks they were hell bent on bagging a su
That and they wanted to suppress the Su-30s so the F-16s could approach and LGB without inteference. The Su-30s would be, in the meanwhile, dodging and jinking, with zero to nil situational awareness. However, thanks to training and IACCS/GCI both, the Su-30s turned offensive and that messed up the PAF's plans. If the PAF wanted a Su-30 kill at all costs, they would have to close in, and they just didn't want to do that. They wanted opportunistic kills not one where their propaganda plan was affected with own losses.
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by Karan M »

Aditya_V wrote:Actually looking at the radar pic put by the IAF, one can clearly understand that the Mig -21 Bison could have launched R-77missiles at the 3 retreating F-16's , but they didnt why? We can only speculate but my suspicion MEA/GOI/IAF made 2 very big mistakes which they do not want to admit.

1) They did not want to escalate the situation
This is no mistake. It was by intent. India wanted to hit Pakistan and also not have a war. We wanted our cake and to eat it too. A war meant risk of escalation to the n-threshold. While prepared for it, we wanted to avoid it. So we knew a response would come, and the relative lack of its success meant we could also walk away without retaliating. If their strike had been even more mismanaged and caused casualties we would have hit back with far more force.
2) They completely underestimated how much the PAF and Paki public love the shooting down IAF planes without a care of the consequences where they expect international support to bail them out.
GOI knows this and cares two bits for the Paki awaams love for PAF. The real message they wanted to deliver to Pak and the Tanzeems was that India hit them and Pak could do nothing to prevent it from repeating it in the future.
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by Aditya_V »

I agree to Disagree with Karan M, if the Bisons wanted they could have fired their R-77;s at the retreating F-16's, Wing Commander responded to the risk, thats why no other F-16 fired an Amraam at Squadron leader Vyas until about ~ 1 minute 30 seconds by which time he had crossed back overthe Pir Panjals and the Amraam fell in Reasi district of J&K, the SU 30 was North of the Pir Panjals all Amraams fired at it probably fell north of the Pir Panjals

If the Mig 21 Bison's had released their R-77 like the Trigger happy PAF, multiple F-16's would have been down thier, the Bison's tried to scare off the attacking F-16's and the one at low altitude tried to take advantage and started targeting the Mig 21 Bisons with a Amraam, that is why the R-73 close combat missile was selected and fired.
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by Aditya_V »

Regarding the R-77 AE, the IAF had known its shortcomings was looking to replace it since 2005. But the govt of the day slept and didnt even protest sale of Amraam 120-C version to Pakis.

Auditor Slams Navy’s Selection Of R-77 Missile
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by srai »

Karan M wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:Air Marshal is talking about the Su-30 MKI North of Pir panjals not firing back at the other F-16 which had fired Amraam's at the Su-30. While this was happening the Mig-21 Bison engaged the 3 F-16's which had dropped LGB's, he does not explain why the Bisons which were pretty close the 3 F-16's plus 1 waiting for Ambush did not fire their R-77.

I am not contradicting him, apart from a bit of restraint the Mig 21 Bisons could have fired R-77's at retreating F-16 after dropping LGB's- there was hardly a 10KM gap.
We have been over this many times. You don't fire a R77 without radar data. And doing so alerts your opponent especially as at that close range the R77 seeker would be in constant acquisition, and the opponents RWR would be a christmas tree allowing him to scramble and avoid. Its the pilots choice which situation appropriate weapon he chooses. Abhinandan chose a weapon that allowed him near complete surprise, which was the R73E. He used the R73E seeker, saw it had a tone, launched. If he had waited and then tried to do the multi-target thing with R77s, that's a far more complex exercise and he might not even had the time to do so.
+1

IMO, the exact same reason why the AMRAAMs missed. Using F-16 radar plus RF seeker missile (and firing from long ranges in lock-on after launch mode), Su-30MKI’s RWR would have provided sufficient warning on when it was locked-on and when those radar lock broke from its maneuvering.

WC Abhi’s MiG-21 was well within R-73E envelope when he fired against an unsuspecting F-16, which was shot down at a distance of around 18-km.
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by Aditya_V »

Fact: Squadron leader Vyas was the wingman along with Wing Commander Abhinandan, both crossed the LOC, no F-16 targeted Squadron leader Vyas for a good ~1minute 30 secs after Wing Commander shootdown, Squandron leader Vyas did not fire any missile at any F-16 before turning back.

All this plus many other evidence indicates it was the F-16 which went down fired the Amraam at Wing Commander aircraft, so it was not unsuspecting F-16. IAF radar images clearly show 3 more F-16's really close to the Mig 21 Bisons apart from the 1 which went down, we know that 3 F-16 came and released LGB's BHQ near Rajouri before that had stop lasing thier targets and had to turn back.

If the Bisons fired at unsuspecting F-16's they had multiple targets at close range and both aircraft would have fired missiles.

It all points to the fact that the Mig 21 Bisons came just to scare of the F-16's when 1 PAF aircraft which was waiting for Ambush decided to target them, this is where as a defensive measure using the HMS in the Mig 21 Bison, the wide boresight capability of the R-73 missile.

If the Mig 21 Bisons knew they were in war like situation and went deliberately for the kill, with 4 F-16s and another 2 F-16 over Mangla and 2 more JF 17 already there in the general area, irrespective of RWR's they would have fired of their R-77's. They would have known that somewhere they were near the LOC and could be crossing it with multiple hostile aircraft. In such a situation definately they would have fired their missiles as they were close to their targets( unlike M-2000 I and SU 30 MKI avenger), there were 4 more Mig 21 Bison's, Su-30's From Adampur Mig 29's from Udhampur all coming in. So they were not really conserving their missiles also.

The only scenario that makes sense is they wanted to chase the F-16's off, spoil the attack and let it be when the F-16D decided to ambush them and as a quick response using the HMS, selecting the R-73 missile, Wing Commander brought down the F-16D. If any other F-16 other than the one which was brought down had fired the Amraam at wing Commander Abhinandan, they would have quickly targeted Squadron leader Vyas and he too would have has to fire to fire a missile at the aircraft which had fired at his leader. But none this happened,(as evident from the Mirpur video), Squadron leader Vyas turned engaging afterburners and another F-16 at about 1min 22 secs in the video (~ 1 min 30 secs after wing Commander aircraft was hit) fires a Amraam near the LOC and turns back, that means the F-16 that targeted Squadron leader Vyas took 1 minute 30 secs and fired his Amraam at pretty hopeless Tail chase scenario ( Mig 21 Bison with afterburner at Mach 2 would have travelled atleast 20+ Km). That F-16 never got a better launch situation against the Mig 21 Bison.

It does not make sense when there are multiple -6 F-16's plus 2 JF 17 in the area that 2 Mig 21 Bisons close in for just 1 of those fire only one of their R-73 missiles.

The other scenario where the Mig 21 Bisons are say closing in for the passive lock on R73 ignoring the LOC, they are seeing on radar and GCI warning them that another F-16 is targeting the leader, in such a scenario surely the F-16 would have fired an Amraam at Squadron leader Vyas aircraft also and he took would have fired his R77/ R73 missile just to put off that F-16, wing Commander also would have broken lock and tried to evade and let the traget go, the Mig 21 Bisons were not on a sucide mission. Their action of jointly firing only 1 R-73 missile and 1 Mig 21 Bison able to get back leaving its leader makes the scenario very unbelievable.
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by RajaRudra »

Aditya_V wrote:the Bison's tried to scare off the attacking F-16's
There is nothing called "scare off" in a hot war like situation. Only thing cared about will be Rules of Engagement and the rules of that will gets updated/changed as and when the situation arises that needs change.

Many years(I think it was in 2008-09) before there was a video of PN vessel closing in and ramming a bit on one of our navy ship ( on an anti piracy mission near). In their ship deck many uniformed jihadis can be seen shouting Ola uber. In our deck there where few person and coolly looking it with a smile. That smile comes based on ROE and confidence in the ability.

May be we are following ROE to the last page, last full stop. We can only speculate until the books come out written by pilots after may years from now :wink:
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by Aditya_V »

Scare off here is to Force the F-16's to abort mission i.e mission kill
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by RajaRudra »

ok, But the individual IAF pilots(even higherups) will not be knowing the exact mission until its execution. Every bogey coming near the line (border) will get considered as coming for its mission and a tactical response by pilots in the air along with mission control people in the operations will pitch in.

Individual Pilots Instinct and training will be tested to the last second if the order to fire first is not forth coming. ROE could have prevented making the first shot. May be during shallow hostilities (No War, No Peace) ROE should be changed to fire at will depending on situation at the disposal of pilots and Foreign affairs ministry should be beefed up to take on the fall back in case of false hits.
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by Aditya_V »

Exactly what we have been saying, IAF I am sure would have learned some lessons and made changes, but I think we did not update ROE fast enough, but then again we were on the back foot after Pulwama while the Pakis had months to plan in close coordination with the the Pulwama Terrorists.
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by Cain Marko »

Aditya_V wrote:Actually looking at the radar pic put by the IAF, one can clearly understand that the Mig -21 Bison could have launched R-77missiles at the 3 retreating F-16's , but they didnt why? We can only speculate but my suspicion MEA/GOI/IAF made 2 very big mistakes which they do not want to admit.
One reason for not firing an r77 could be that the viper was a retreating target and effective range and nez of any ARH missile degrades considerably in tail chase. An IR guided missile otoh would home in quite nicely on the engines of retreating targets. .

Jmtp.
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by nachiket »

Aditya_V wrote:Regarding the R-77 AE, the IAF had known its shortcomings was looking to replace it since 2005. But the govt of the day slept and didnt even protest sale of Amraam 120-C version to Pakis.

Auditor Slams Navy’s Selection Of R-77 Missile
No doubt the bean counters at CAG felt nice after criticizing the Navy, but what choice did the Navy really have? The Radar and MC on the 29K are both Russian. The R-77 is the only ARH missile integrated on it. Which other missile should they have bought? Does the all knowing CAG have a recommendation?

Also, if IAF was looking for a replacement since 2005, did they find one? Doesn't seem to be the case since they were using the same missiles in 2019. So how would the Navy magically find an alternative? Bear in mind that the IAF has far more control and freedom on what missile they can integrate on the MKI than the Navy does with their Migs.
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by S_Madhukar »

R73 was the preferred option even in the exercises with the USAF so the mig21 ops were as expected ... but I hope going forward they change the RoE ala Israel style, no point in letting PAF get too close to the border... the air border should be as per our definition not as per the land one ...
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by srai »

S_Madhukar wrote:R73 was the preferred option even in the exercises with the USAF so the mig21 ops were as expected ...
Yes, Su-30MKI + MiG-21Bison combo tried and tested tactic. Validated with successful outcomes in friendly exercises.
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by John »

nachiket wrote:Bear in mind that the IAF has far more control and freedom on what missile they can integrate on the MKI than the Navy does with their Migs.
Not sure what makes you say that? Navy is working on integrating Derby with Mig-29k.
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by srai »

^^^
In Su-30MKI, the mission computer is Indian. Also, the whole plane can be built in India from raw materials. Likewise with overhauling. MLU aka “Super Sukhoi” enhancement will be mostly Indian affair.

You can see how many DRDO weapons (HSLD, Astra, Brahmos, SAAW, Gaurav, Gauthum, PG-HSLD etc) and foreign (Litening, Griffin-3 LGB etc) are being integrated in-house with very little help from Russian OEM.
Last edited by srai on 03 Apr 2021 05:57, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by Rishirishi »

The PAF pilots must have known that the Su-30mki's will probably manage to doge the missiles, that were fired from such a range. They may have fired them with the intention to keep them MKI's away.

I am sorry to say, but we have to admit the short-comings of IAF. IAF has a budget several times the PAF, so it is natural to expect some kind of superiority. But the battle showed India was behind in top end missiles, Awacs and even radio link and integration. One starts to wonder what would happen if a war broke out.
I think it all boils down to decisions around hardware purchase. There are too many people in the decision making ( a lot of them probably not the most competent). Perhaps the GOI should let the armed forces decide how to spend the money. They certainly can't do a worse job, compared to the way things are run now.

India has relied on Russian air to air missiles. I am struggling to find a SINGLE fighter shot down with Russian missiels V western missiles.

PAF had 80 F-16's and over 500 AIM 120-c in their arsenal during the conflict.
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by srai »

...

Perhaps the GOI should let the armed forces decide how to spend the money. They certainly can't do a worse job, compared to the way things are run now.
The whole defense procurement structure works together in conjunction with the IA/IAF/IN/CG and MoD/MoF/GoI and various committees. End users define what they require (and the quantities) and the GoI elements make it happen within the defined budget allocations. Due to expensive choices, financial constraints, corruption, red-tape and babudom, every major procurement is set up for passing through lengthy bureaucratic hurdles. The whole process is not efficient by any means.
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by Aditya_V »

Rishirishi wrote:The PAF pilots must have known that the Su-30mki's will probably manage to doge the missiles, that were fired from such a range. They may have fired them with the intention to keep them MKI's away.

I am sorry to say, but we have to admit the short-comings of IAF. IAF has a budget several times the PAF, so it is natural to expect some kind of superiority. But the battle showed India was behind in top end missiles, Awacs and even radio link and integration. One starts to wonder what would happen if a war broke out.
I think it all boils down to decisions around hardware purchase. There are too many people in the decision making ( a lot of them probably not the most competent). Perhaps the GOI should let the armed forces decide how to spend the money. They certainly can't do a worse job, compared to the way things are run now.

India has relied on Russian air to air missiles. I am struggling to find a SINGLE fighter shot down with Russian missiels V western missiles.

PAF had 80 F-16's and over 500 AIM 120-c in their arsenal during the conflict.
Has it occurred that PAF cannot even buy 8 F-16's without US aid- Pakis said know to a full commercial Purchase for 8 aircraft, the rest of the F-16 fleet was bought with money paid by the US tax payer, so this statement is not correct.
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by Karan M »

Rishirishi wrote:The PAF pilots must have known that the Su-30mki's will probably manage to doge the missiles, that were fired from such a range. They may have fired them with the intention to keep them MKI's away.

I am sorry to say, but we have to admit the short-comings of IAF. IAF has a budget several times the PAF, so it is natural to expect some kind of superiority. But the battle showed India was behind in top end missiles, Awacs and even radio link and integration. One starts to wonder what would happen if a war broke out.
I think it all boils down to decisions around hardware purchase. There are too many people in the decision making ( a lot of them probably not the most competent). Perhaps the GOI should let the armed forces decide how to spend the money. They certainly can't do a worse job, compared to the way things are run now.

India has relied on Russian air to air missiles. I am struggling to find a SINGLE fighter shot down with Russian missiels V western missiles.

PAF had 80 F-16's and over 500 AIM 120-c in their arsenal during the conflict.
You are cooking up claims now. The IAF knew the shortcoming of the R77s RMax vs AMRAAM way back and hence Meteor came with the Rafale. There were no AWACS shortcomings. India shot down a F16 with a R73E.

Take your bias and poorly researched posts elsewhere. Not the thread to post risible propaganda.
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by Karan M »

Aditya_V wrote:I agree to Disagree with Karan M, if the Bisons wanted they could have fired their R-77;s at the retreating F-16's, Wing Commander responded to the risk, thats why no other F-16 fired an Amraam at Squadron leader Vyas until about ~ 1 minute 30 seconds by which time he had crossed back overthe Pir Panjals and the Amraam fell in Reasi district of J&K, the SU 30 was North of the Pir Panjals all Amraams fired at it probably fell north of the Pir Panjals

If the Mig 21 Bison's had released their R-77 like the Trigger happy PAF, multiple F-16's would have been down thier, the Bison's tried to scare off the attacking F-16's and the one at low altitude tried to take advantage and started targeting the Mig 21 Bisons with a Amraam, that is why the R-73 close combat missile was selected and fired.
The theory you propose has multiple loopholes, and that's the basic issue. There is no point in firing R77s against retreating fighters at supersonic unless there is a high chance of success, their firing envelope decreases drastically. The RMax against non manuevering targets, rear profile targets is 1/4th that of the head on range!

You are making multiple assumptions here about who chose to fire what as if all guys know who is targeting whom, and they know which specific fighter has done so and so forth. This is not how it happens in real life (at least not until we get mega-datalinks) unless both pilots are regularly conversing and operating as a team. The RWRs arent networked. So how would Abhi know who targeted Sq Ldr Vyas who by several accounts had already listened to the GCI input and had broken off? Abhi was jammed.

Furthermore, there is no mention in the IAF VrC commendation of all this.
“Displaying exceptional air combat acumen and knowledge of the enemy’s tactics, Abhinandan scanned the low altitude airspace with his airborne intercept (AI) radar and picked up an enemy aircraft that was flying low to ambush the Indian fighter interceptor aircraft… Abhinandan alerted the other formation pilots towards this surprise threat,” the citation said.

“He then consolidated the riposte, by gathering his wingman in an offensive formation against the hostile Pakistani aircraft now dropping weapons on Indian Army positions. This audacious and aggressive maneuver forced the enemy aircraft into tactical chaos,” it further said.

The citation said the wing commander then pursued a retreating enemy fighter bomber aircraft and in the ensuing aerial combat, shot down an F-16. “However, in the melee, one of the enemy aircraft fired multiple advanced BVR missiles, one of which hit his aircraft forcing him to eject in enemy territory.”
1. Ambush the fighter interceptor craft - likely the Su-30s or other Bison themselves. Alerted them, ergo that was dealt with.
2. Wingman and him both, moved towards the F-16s engaged in the LGB attacks. Disrupted their attack, and they ran.
3. Pursued the retreating aircraft and shot down a F-16 (not necessarily the one that threatened the wingman or the one they were chasing either). Got shot down in turn. Note there is no mention of any HMS usage etc in WVR either. This was likely driven completely by the tone in the headset from the R73E seeker.

Where in all this, is some attempt to save his wingman and/or engage the rest of the PAF aircraft? There were BARCAPs established in PAF territory. One of them went for Abhinandan as he went for a target.

Ergo, all this conjecture is just unproven.

How about we acknowledge the true expert was the guy in the cockpit and he decided to choose the right weapon for his task, which functioned as intended. That's all we can say for sure.

What we can understand from the above.

Abhi was the lead, he was using his radar, at least intermittently - providing the info outwards (voice comms) and focused on his task, decided to chase after the broken F-16 strike, didn't hear the instructions to break off (which Sq Ldr Vyas did and broke off), and on his radar saw a potential target of oppty (likely closing in), activated his R73E, got tone, launched, and then cut and run. All this while his RWR would have been buzzing non stop with F-16 tones and that of the AEW&CS. So he knew the risk, and took it. As he was cutting and running, an AMRAAM hit his aircraft, either from the F-16 he had targeted or another one. As Vyas was racing back, he too took an AMRAAM shot either from the same F-16 Abhi hit or another one and outran the missile.

That's all the information we have so far. So if Abhi had sought to protect Vyas by targeting the F-16 attacking it in turn, why would IAF not release it. So clearly, Abhi has no claimed this. Its more likely he saw a F-16 turn hot or come in targeting range, become a threat and took the shot.
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by Karan M »

srai wrote:
Karan M wrote:
We have been over this many times. You don't fire a R77 without radar data. And doing so alerts your opponent especially as at that close range the R77 seeker would be in constant acquisition, and the opponents RWR would be a christmas tree allowing him to scramble and avoid. Its the pilots choice which situation appropriate weapon he chooses. Abhinandan chose a weapon that allowed him near complete surprise, which was the R73E. He used the R73E seeker, saw it had a tone, launched. If he had waited and then tried to do the multi-target thing with R77s, that's a far more complex exercise and he might not even had the time to do so.
+1

IMO, the exact same reason why the AMRAAMs missed. Using F-16 radar plus RF seeker missile (and firing from long ranges in lock-on after launch mode), Su-30MKI’s RWR would have provided sufficient warning on when it was locked-on and when those radar lock broke from its maneuvering.

WC Abhi’s MiG-21 was well within R-73E envelope when he fired against an unsuspecting F-16, which was shot down at a distance of around 18-km.
From what I understand it was the RWR, GCI input and the fact that they observed contrails in the sky that had the Su-30s maneuver and win. The problem is with today's ARH missiles, all can be fired from TWS mode, so the moment one gets painted constantly, all that really matters is whether you are in the launch range of the opponents AAMs (and whether you can fire first). The default assumption has to be that you have been fired on, if you are within launch range.
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by nachiket »

Karan M wrote: From what I understand it was the RWR, GCI input and the fact that they observed contrails in the sky that had the Su-30s maneuver and win. The problem is with today's ARH missiles, all can be fired from TWS mode, so the moment one gets painted constantly, all that really matters is whether you are in the launch range of the opponents AAMs (and whether you can fire first). The default assumption has to be that you have been fired on, if you are within launch range.
This also shows how badly the RoE's can affect you. You do not have authorization to fire BVRAAM's across the LoC unless you're fired upon, but cannot tell if you have been fired upon until the AMRAAM seeker goes active at ~20km range. That is a dangerous situation. On top of that you are heavily outnumbered, at an altitude disadvantage and your main mission is not engaging enemy CAP fighters who are trying to kill you but stopping their strike fighters from succeeding in their mission. Those Su-30 pilots deserve every bit of the accolades they received and then some for what they managed to do with so many things against them.
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Post by Cain Marko »

nachiket wrote:[
This also shows how badly the RoE's can affect you. .
That's my take too. The roe was quite defensive. I don't see why mkis wouldn't have let loose first if roe allowed. With bars and r77 and esp. R27s they surely have first look/shot.

If such a scenario ever repeats, we'll see different results and a lot of f16 debris. Even without raffle.
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