MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya G » 18 Mar 2019 21:42

AdityaM wrote:....

And by firing multiple BVRs, they did attempt to hit us. But we did not hit back. Not even later.
So that’s a bit of muddled messaging.

If our ROE during the PAF raid was not to be the first to fire if Pakis were in their airspace, then our ROE did not change in the subsequent days as well.
In later days they have been flying close to the borders, we didn’t punish them for breaking expected ROE restraints.
So PAF guys would be pretty upbeat given the fact that they attempted run our noses to the ground in their attempt to scalp multiple Su30s.
They didn’t succeed, but they are not particularly worse off for that.
(Leaving aside the F16 loss, which we believe absolutely happened, but we can’t/won’t prove for whatever reasons)
......


I feel we are being unreasonable here.

IAF was set out a focused aim to attack against terror factories - with clear instructions not to harm civil or military targets. This was achieved perfectly:

- We got into PoK or possibly Pakistani airspace
- we got in and out without being intercepted despite PAF being on high alert
- Weapon selection was perfect
- Target objectives destroyed
- Balakot was just one of 3

The next day, when the Pakistanis attempted to retaliate:

- IAF successfully intercepted them
- IAF forced errors on their A2G targetting thus defeating their primary mission
- Bagged a F-16, albeit lost a MiG-21
- Dodged a barrage of AMRAAMS

The days following IAF and GOI would have held back as our pilot was in their custody and we had no more political aims to execute. Should we be sending air force again just to make a 2-1 score and keep jingos happy?

I dont see any reason for PAF to be upbeat. The only take away for them was the face saver that they did mount an attack - and remember that they also confined themselves to a ROE by staying within their side of the LoC - the multiple AMRAAM shots was to protect their package from SUs and once Wingo Abhi committed to a dogfight no ROE mattered.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby AdityaM » 18 Mar 2019 21:57

Lots of downed Mig21 images on the slimy forum

link

Turbine
Image

HUD
Image

Bullets missile
Image

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby SaiK » 18 Mar 2019 21:58

Karan M wrote:
Singha wrote:Yes it was failure of our political rulers to anticipate that all dharmic “rules” would be broken despite giving them a face saver exit route of non military terror target and zero civilian kia

We were lucky to escape with no lives lost and 1:1 exchange ratio fighting with one arm against someone who follows no indic rules

Chalo fool me once shame on you but fool me twice and its shame on me

I hope there is blanket signoff to throw the kitchen sink next time they try a stunt or mass attack including dollowing their retreating ac with a missile barrage on their base timed to arrive with them

One has to adapt to survive with the pakis thats for sure and indic age old rules like do not attack the defenceless have zero meaning


Well said. We have to anticipate and prepare for a proper conflict.

well, all said and done.. those weren't the mission objectives here [did I get this right?]. so, you need to knock off mil offense and dharmic defense thoughts [valid but doesn't apply here]. I am pretty positive, even while Bison got a lock, WingCo was waiting for affirmation (on radio) to press the red button.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Singha » 18 Mar 2019 22:02

the last time pakistan was in this much economic shambles was around 2001 post-kargil and then 9/11 happened.
they leveraged post 9/11 americas need to wipe anti western terror camps from afghanistan into the road transport GOAT baksheesh agreement, and provided a porous border for the talibs to move around, while massa wrung his hands in despair rather than atleast apply the economic screws tighter on pakistan.

so clearly massa had no stomach to face down TSP even to protect its own occupation of afghanistan and the safety of its own troops. time and again talibs caused mayhem in afghanistan then moved back to pakistan, while PA protected the border.

some figureheads like OBL were thrown under the bus when confronted with direct threats, but overall USA had no stomach to broadly confront TSP.

the plot of khan control also unravelled from around a decade ago (start of ombaba 2nd term) when china moved in deeply as the next sugar daddy and saudi support also continued as custodian of the holy nukes against iran.

so clearly pakis have found a tripod to stabilize themselves between saudi, american, chinese interests by providing something of value to each one.

ofcourse while doing this, its per capita gdp has withered away and is now below bangladesh who was very late starter.

the elites have parked their kids and money in london so they dont care
the upper middle class are busy emigrating to anglo countries or work long term in the gulf
the middle middle class may aspire to local jobs
the lower class has farming and if thats not on, then jihadi tanzeems if they show talent at young age

with a 200 mil strong population nobody wants to feed that many refugees so taking it apart to the point of statelessness is not a superb option though psychologically very satisfying

a prolonged economic distress by targeted indian pressure from all angles is probably the best outcome to keep them under control on the way down the tubes and also in parallel protect our economic trajectory

this is likely the decision of the indian state apparatus for the next decade before a revisit.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby SidSoma » 18 Mar 2019 22:05

MeshaVishwas wrote:Last one is just weird.
We kill un uniformed Jehadis, they attempt to kill our Jawans to avenge their cousins (from the same marriage?), We say equal equal, let us de-escalate?!


No Equal Equal. We are ahead and in the interest of our elections we considered a de-esculation. Please do the body count and H&D count. We are 300+2 and what do they have to show for this. A downed pilot who they had to return in a day without any bargain.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby MeshaVishwas » 18 Mar 2019 22:16

SidSoma wrote:
MeshaVishwas wrote:Last one is just weird.
We kill un uniformed Jehadis, they attempt to kill our Jawans to avenge their cousins (from the same marriage?), We say equal equal, let us de-escalate?!


No Equal Equal. We are ahead and in the interest of our elections we considered a de-esculation. Please do the body count and H&D count. We are 300+2 and what do they have to show for this. A downed pilot who they had to return in a day without any bargain.

I don't care about their(Paki) body count.
Their entire 220m population is not equal to my left testicle.
But this was an act of Military aggression.Nothing less.
We will attack you "If"....
This self imposed *Conditions Apply will prove costly.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby SaiK » 18 Mar 2019 22:37

Singha wrote:..
a prolonged economic distress by targeted indian pressure from all angles is probably the best outcome to keep them under control on the way down the tubes and also in parallel protect our economic trajectory

this is likely the decision of the indian state apparatus for the next decade before a revisit.


a revisit may not be required if the engagement is all about self-destruction [administrative]. it is strenuous, but long-term and least problematic for our internal affairs, as the mission objective would be all "liberation"! surgical strike to biopsy or some open heart ones.

all it takes is invalidating few historical/constitutional statements to begin this mission.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Vikas » 18 Mar 2019 22:49

Posters here do realise that as much strong IA is, Paki Military is no sitting duck after having being fed on liberal US military grants and Chinese handouts in last few years. Indian Political and Military leadership understands the perils of escalation beyond a point where it stops serving any purpose. As much painful it is but Soldiers will keep getting killed in J&K for next few years and terrorism will not subside by few air attacks or Surgical strikes. Its not a battle or skirmish of few decades but a war initiated centuries ago.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 18 Mar 2019 23:03

MeshaVishwas wrote:
SidSoma wrote:
No Equal Equal. We are ahead and in the interest of our elections we considered a de-esculation. Please do the body count and H&D count. We are 300+2 and what do they have to show for this. A downed pilot who they had to return in a day without any bargain.

I don't care about their(Paki) body count.
Their entire 220m population is not equal to my left testicle.
But this was an act of Military aggression.Nothing less.
We will attack you "If"....
This self imposed *Conditions Apply will prove costly.


We fight on our own terms and when the game is loaded in our favor. We are ahead in kill counts and economic damage inflicted on Pakistan. Relax.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 18 Mar 2019 23:04

Vikas wrote:Posters here do realise that as much strong IA is, Paki Military is no sitting duck after having being fed on liberal US military grants and Chinese handouts in last few years. Indian Political and Military leadership understands the perils of escalation beyond a point where it stops serving any purpose. As much painful it is but Soldiers will keep getting killed in J&K for next few years and terrorism will not subside by few air attacks or Surgical strikes. Its not a battle or skirmish of few decades but a war initiated centuries ago.


They may not be a sitting duck but we are in the process of our own RMA. Think IAF between 65 and 71.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby ramana » 18 Mar 2019 23:09

Vikas, The gloves are off with in reason.
Jihad-e-fistula seriously doubts FizzileYa capability.
They don't trust the PN anyway.
Very soon the vaunted ISI will also be denuded.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Raveen » 18 Mar 2019 23:15

At the end of the day, all we need to do it keep them on their toes while we continue to grow fast.
We're pretty close (say about 5 - 7 years if the right party is back in power) to the tipping point where they dare not screw with us because it'll be akin to a gorilla going against a chihuahua.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Anujan » 18 Mar 2019 23:32

I dont know what all this hand-wringing about ROE is. I have always trusted the armed forces, but I have begun to trust and appreciate our babus.

Take the statement after Balakot attack for example. Foreign Secretary said it was a "Non military Preemptive operation". Nowhere did he claim that it was retaliation for CRPF attack. Does that mean that the threat of retaliation got muddled? Does it mean that we never meant it as a Jhappad on their TFTAs? We never said "retaliation" did we? But for the people who matter (their Brownpants and Netas) the message is clear.

There is a Babudom reason why they said "preemptive operation". It means that
1. We can do it, without provocation, in future, if large number of soosai abduls gather at one place
2. It is illegal to bomb another country's territory without formally declaring war. We are law-abiding country onlee.

We can go all :(( :(( on why it was not called retaliation. It doesnt matter. Trust the babus.

The same thing about RoE.

How do we know there was an RoE vis-a-vis BVRs? Was there an RoE against crossing the LoC again? If so, did it not go out through the window when WgCmdr chased one and sent a missile up its musharraf? Armed forces are taught to be aggressive and seize the initiative (I vaguely remember General Bikram Singh saying something to this effect "I expect all of my commanders to be aggressive and seize the initiative"). They are not sitting around reading a rulebook seeing what they can and cannot do. If they did not take a BVR shot, it was probably because they were afraid of civilian aircraft on their side (some of which could be coming/going from India). Imagine the ruckus if Pakis had intruded, we had fired and hit a commercial airliner?

Let us assume they took out 4 SU-30 with BVR shots and we did nothing, afraid of collateral damage. Do you think the exchange would end there? We'd have bombed the air-bases their aircrafts came from. So lets stop :(( :(( about assumed RoEs.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Rakesh » 18 Mar 2019 23:41

Anujan, their strike package had to cross the LOC and enter Indian air space. Otherwise, the Porkis could argue that we are being too mean and not allowing the PAF to maintain their H&D even in Pakistan! :)

Shooting down their strike package - in Pakistani airspace - would result in mayhem. The PAF would retaliate, which will cause an escalation. It is not the escalation that worries the IAF. It is what some over-zealous PAF pilot would do against a civilian target flying in the area. Shoot down an airliner and then the gloves would have come off. An un-necessary over escalation. Now one can argue that the PAF pilot would know that he is able to discern the difference between a civilian airliner and a fighter plane. But in the fog of war, anything could happen.

The PAF crossed the LOC, they got raped and then ran back to the safety of their air bases. They had no intention of striking anything in India. Their only goal was to draw out the IAF into Pakistani airspace and hopefully score a few kills inside Pakistan. What has (and still is) worried them though, is their much vaunted AMRAAM missiles all falling prey to the IAF Su-30s and MiG-21 Bisons armed with the Elta pod. Wing Commander Varthaman gave chase (because that is what he was trained to do!) to the F-16. Being aggressive is important for a fighter pilot and the Wing Commander did exactly that.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 19 Mar 2019 00:02

AdityaM wrote:Not really.
If they hit us BIG, then we may hit back.
That is the new normal.


You are completely mistaken. Please read up.
https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/cove ... 2018-02-15

From the clouds of gunsmoke and the debris of collapsed border posts has emerged a new unnamed Indian army strategy to counter this proxy war, the coercive end of the Modi government's 'talks and terror can't go hand in hand' hard line with Pakistan. The 'proactive strategy', as one general calls it, is different from the earlier 'reactive strategy'-to retaliate only to specific incidents of fire. "Earlier, it was bullet for bullet," says a general in the Northern Command. "Now, it is a hundred rounds for every round he fires."

There is possibly some truth in his statement. Last December, a Pakistani foreign office spokesperson accused the Indian army of over 1,300 ceasefire violations, over 60 per cent more violations than India blames Pakistan for. India lost 19 soldiers and BSF troopers along the LoC and international boundary in 2017 and 12 personnel at the same locations this year. Pakistan has not supplied figures for its troop losses. The army claims to have inflicted more losses across the border. "They have suffered three or four times more than us," army chief General Bipin Rawat told the media on January 12 this year.
..............................

The army says the post-2016 proactive strategy is different. Not only have the curbs over trans-LoC operations been lifted, the volume of firepower too has gone up. There are now increasing fire assaults-light artillery and mortars designed to destroy posts along the Pakistan side. Alpha Company's secret weapon is an I-tank or Infantry-tank, a retired T-55 battle tank driven up to the LoC and used as a mobile pillbox, its 100 mm gun providing devastating direct fire.


Net, there is no "big event" necessary for retaliation. We see any emerging threat, as at Balakot we have the wherewithal and policy to attack.

Note what was said about Balakote. It was a pre-emptive attack to take out suicide bombers. What this means is if the threat is not localized to the LOC or IB, we have the choice to hit deep into Pakistan and we will.

And by firing multiple BVRs, they did attempt to hit us. But we did not hit back. Not even later.
So that’s a bit of muddled messaging.


Abhinandan chased the Paki F-16 into their airspace and took it down with a R-73E, hardly muddled messaging. We didnt hit back because we wanted to hit them & not have a full blown war. That's to our advantage. We pressurise them, minimize asset loss & economic risk, by making them bleed. The idiots fell for it. Besides, we were smart enough (rather the IAF GCI/AWACS guys were) not to have our escorts go deeper into TSP. Traps galore were a possibility.

As to why not a full blown war, multiple reasons. Apart from the obvious risks etc of the escalation angle, there is also the fact we are in the middle of a slow yet steady recapitalization process which had been muddled up by a decade of the UPA. We are steadily moving to the armed forces we require as versus "we will fight with what we have". Its to India's advantage that we have a conflict that we are at our maximum & PAF at their minimum or normal. We have multiple SAM, weapons, aircraft procurement programs ordered, but deliveries yet to commence. The Pakistanis know it & their counter-orders from PRC can't hope to match what we are getting. Its to our benefit to keep the situation at a boil. Neither overt war, nor peace with periodic strikes into Pakistan or on the LOC, while keeping the economic pressure ongoing. The constant pressure is what they have not had thanks to MMS & his craven cowardice, and which policy has now clearly changed.

If our ROE during the PAF raid was not to be the first to fire if Pakis were in their airspace, then our ROE did not change in the subsequent days as well.


Says who? If they aggressively come up with a threatening profile against Indian assets, then theres every chance we will defend ourselves.

In later days they have been flying close to the borders, we didn’t punish them for breaking expected ROE restraints.


Because they would have broken off the mission profiles very quickly before we lock onto them. They will protect their scarce assets.

So PAF guys would be pretty upbeat given the fact that they attempted run our noses to the ground in their attempt to scalp multiple Su30s.
They didn’t succeed, but they are not particularly worse off for that.


They lost a premier airframe to an obsolete fighter which is due retirement. Their 24 aircraft strike package resulted in no kills. Their premier silver bullet AMRAAM gave them no kills, in all likelihood Abhi's loss was due to a flame out..do you really think they aren't worse off?

(Leaving aside the F16 loss, which we believe absolutely happened, but we can’t/won’t prove for whatever reasons)


Why should we just look at the F-16 loss. Multiple AMRAAMs launched, their Raptors launched...results zero. Speaks poorly of both their combat capability, persistence in the fight & their over reliance on items which didn;t work out for them. Our SPICEs worked out for us. So did our upgraded Bisons.

By the way Jagan, the old man of BRF is less gung-ho sounding in his livefist interview than most of us here.
Why does he not post here


Jagan is welcome to his views. But he has a telling point, why is the PAF not displaying all its F-16s? That itself shows the reality. As matter of fact like I noted earlier, they will wait till they can get more airframes and then put on a dog & pony show. Their silence speaks volumes though, till then.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby SaiK » 19 Mar 2019 00:27

When push comes to shove for numbers, they will cargo (air show and joint deep exercise) in a solah from their midwest neighbors (UAE?), line them up now, and produce a photo-op-shot to give us the counts. It appears that is what they are likely to do, as it has become soc media and media-warfare. Get ready with canons! ;-)

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 19 Mar 2019 00:31

In fact, more than what they do, it's what Pakistan doesn't do which shows the reality.

They aren't allowing anyone into Balakote. Why? Because no matter how the building looks from outside, inside its likely a shrapnel pitted disaster zone with huge craters within.

They didn't show a full flyby of all their F-16s. Speaks volumes.

They didn't admit their F-16s were involved, only to have AMRAAM fragments puncture their claims.

Long track record of lying through their teeth and how long will it last.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 19 Mar 2019 00:33

SaiK wrote:When push comes to shove for numbers, they will cargo (air show and joint deep exercise) in a solah from their midwest neighbors (UAE?), line them up now, and produce a photo-op-shot to give us the counts. It appears that is what they are likely to do, as it has become soc media and media-warfare. Get ready with canons! ;-)


That will be the plan. I bet PAF is desparately begging the Turks, Jordanians - anyone from their usual ummah friends - to lend them a few F-16s "off the record" so they can repaint them and pretend all iz well.
Which is why the MOD should release the F-16 shootdown info, asap.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby SaiK » 19 Mar 2019 00:47

MOD should also the time the release, such that it kills many pakistaniyats homegrown as well. :)

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby ramana » 19 Mar 2019 01:00

Lalmohan wrote:pull the strands together... PA wants conflict, but when faced with an escalation they backed down, or were urged to back down. they realised that if the elephant starts to thrash around then they will be trampled. so comes back to the PA-State being a rent seeker and running a protection racket with anyone they can. its not about ghazwa-e-hind for the brass, but that is a nice slogan for the cannon fodder
and now the cannon fodder know it too...
things must be pretty scary for the jarnails right now...



LM, You will understand hence replying to you.
Once very senior ex J-e-F said there are mainly three groups in the officers: careerists who like soldiering, mercantilists who run Fouji Foundation types, and jihadi fundoos. The numbers are not 1/3 each but in flux and all have repreentatives in the command structures. The jihadi fundoo control the maal unlike all that cover of SPD etc. Massa was fooling. The third types feel very insecure now. The cannon fodder are all jihadis.

My take:
So most likely there will be a regime change. On the outcome will depend the future viability of TSP. If GOI keeps the pressure it will implode.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby syam » 19 Mar 2019 01:04

Karan ji, Let me clarify my earlier rants. It's nothing to do with proof or F-16. My issue is with the way things gone and how it goes in 2-front scenario. I expected something else. Our whole decision making process is very rigid. Not dynamic enough.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Rakesh » 19 Mar 2019 01:05

syam wrote:Karan ji, Let me clarify my earlier rants. It's nothing to do with proof or F-16. My issue is with the way things gone and how it goes in 2-front scenario. I expected something else. Our whole decision making process is very rigid. Not dynamic enough.

Can you please advise what you were expecting?

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby ramana » 19 Mar 2019 01:08

Rakesh, We are not a therapy place. I don't want whines and second guessing in time of war.
In Kargil we shut the forum down to erase nonsense.

That's all I have to say.
syam If you reply you are out.
Our Forum, Our Rules.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Shameek » 19 Mar 2019 01:09

Karan M wrote:That will be the plan. I bet PAF is desparately begging the Turks, Jordanians - anyone from their usual ummah friends - to lend them a few F-16s "off the record" so they can repaint them and pretend all iz well.
Which is why the MOD should release the F-16 shootdown info, asap.


Turkey is participating in their parade. Maybe forget to take one F-16 back! With the missile pictures they are back to claiming 2 or even 3 IAF aircraft shot down. What a sad state of existence to have to live off imaginary glories due to the lack of real ones.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby disha » 19 Mar 2019 01:37

Any country loaning their F-16 to Bakistan *will* definitely ask something tangible in return. And they also know that such an attempt will not go down well with India.

Assume that Jordan/Turkey (most likely to loan F-16) to Bakistan has jihadists in control (and in uniform) and want to help out the jihadis in uniform in Bakistan, then what do they get?

For the remaining, what does Bakistan provide? A launchpad against Iran? What is the quid-pro-quid? And Bakistan is now the international pariah. Who would want to associate one with an international pariah!

I doubt if anything from Jordan/Turkey will show up in Bakistan. Though Bakistan will surely try.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby sudeepj » 19 Mar 2019 01:45

When your airforce chief is telling you, that your pilot shot down an enemy aircraft, whats the point in not believing? Pakis didnt even accept their 600+ dead in Kargil, whats one plane and one pilot? Finally, what is the nature of this itch in your mind that you are trying to scratch using the outcome of this skirmish? Let the Pakis believe what they want.. We have a govt. that is far more honest and I would rather believe our guys.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Katare » 19 Mar 2019 02:18

It isn’t going to satisfy the doubters, so whats the point. It’ll only cause more bickering aka Rafale, SC and CAG reports made no difference to congoons and their supporters,did it?

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby gpurewal » 19 Mar 2019 02:26

Katare wrote:It isn’t going to satisfy the doubters, so whats the point. It’ll only cause more bickering aka Rafale, SC and CAG reports made no difference to congoons and their supporters,did it?


Same breed as flat-earthers and antivaxxers. Head deep in the sand when presented with facts/figures.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 19 Mar 2019 03:03

Pakistani military is just one giant potemkin village.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potemkin_village

They want to keep the facade going. But how long can they succeed?

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Bishwa » 19 Mar 2019 04:54

A couple of aviation SMEs (incl Angad Singh) have stated that the drop tank is a PTB-800. It is a 800 Litre Centerline Drop Tank.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Rakesh » 19 Mar 2019 05:06

Bishwa wrote:A couple of aviation SMEs (incl Angad Singh) have stated that the drop tank is a PTB-800. It is a 800 Litre Centerline Drop Tank.

This is what a search in google chacha came up with. Regardless, that means nothing.

Image

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Bishwa » 19 Mar 2019 05:14

Even the JF17 uses a 800 liter central line drop tank. Not sure if they use the PTB-800

Image


And if we see some of the plots worked out by OSINT
Image

The Mirage+JF17 was shown over the same area around Naushera

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Rishi » 19 Mar 2019 07:56

Bishwa wrote:Even the JF17 uses a 800 liter central line drop tank. Not sure if they use the PTB-800

[img]...[/img]

And if we see some of the plots worked out by OSINT
[img]...[/img]

The Mirage+JF17 was shown over the same area around Naushera


The OSINT locations of the shootsdowns seem wrong

From page 31:

Image

Left is where the MiG debris fell in Horran. Right is approx location of Khamba/Sehr Makri at Naushera on the LoC (near Laam Valley). So the Indian villagers did not see the MiG go down (40 km away).

However, how was the MiG so far west of the F-16 it hit?

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Bishwa » 19 Mar 2019 08:20

The OSINT map is not exactly accurate for sure

The location of Naushera is wrong... so is the site of the 2 plane crashes

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby SaiK » 19 Mar 2019 09:24

tsarkar wrote:Not a single Indian aircraft, including Abhinandan, worked out a BVR firing solution as that would have violated the RoE. Instead Abhinandan chose to close in. And enter Pakistani territory. Super Brave of him.

The older peacetime RoE has since then been changed.


People in Horran village threw stones at the pilot, who fired several warning shots, eyewitnesses told the BBC.


from google map:

Image

#justsaying It must give a good big picture what happened.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 19 Mar 2019 17:29

I just hope GOI has been able to obtain some videos of locals taking Mobile videos of Paki Pilot and F-16 debris, these hopefully will be realeased in good time.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby YashG » 19 Mar 2019 22:27

Aditya_V wrote:I just hope GOI has been able to obtain some videos of locals taking Mobile videos of Paki Pilot and F-16 debris, these hopefully will be realeased in good time.


IRNSS has 0.1 m resolution over the subcontinent. They should have some images ( f16 was shot, then its debris shud have scattered over a large area? Hard for a sat pic)

Also I went through Shiv's video on youtube - there is a video still where two parachutes are visible. Does anyone have a link of a higher res video or other video links of two parachutes flying down.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby sudeepj » 19 Mar 2019 22:30

YashG wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:I just hope GOI has been able to obtain some videos of locals taking Mobile videos of Paki Pilot and F-16 debris, these hopefully will be realeased in good time.


IRNSS has 0.1 m resolution over the subcontinent. They should have some images ( f16 was shot, then its debris shud have scattered over a large area? Hard for a sat pic)

Also I went through Shiv's video on youtube - there is a video still where two parachutes are visible. Does anyone have a link of a higher res video or other video links of two parachutes flying down.


IRNSS is a constellation providing PVT service, not an imagery constellation. Cartosats, and numerous other vaguely named satellites can provide imint over Pak, but so far, the weights of the satellites indicate a resolution just about a meter or so.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Manish_Sharma » 19 Mar 2019 22:35

Karan M wrote: we are in the process of our own RMA. Think IAF between 65 and 71.

What is RMA?

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby UlanBatori » 19 Mar 2019 23:32

But he has a telling point, why is the PAF not displaying all its F-16s? That itself shows the reality.

Jaganji knows the answer :rotfl:
Of 40+ F-16s supplied by US, fewer than 10 are were operational. The rest are donkey-carts.
Also, I am tired of hearing this "their Premier Combat Aircraft was defeated by Our Old Rust-Bucket" etc.
Someone should please check into the actual age since last update, of the Paki Blockhead 1986-delivered F-16s vs. the MiG-21 BIS that WCdr Abhi flew.
My point is that the current fleet of 600 "aged" Indian-made, BIS-upgraded MiG-21s are each far superior to PAF's Blockhead-1986 F-16s. All 87 of them.

Look what happened in classic, one-on-one close-in dogfight, where the F-16's Made4Maneuver capabilities proved no match for the MiG and they ended up with the MiG right up their tail (classic end-of-dogfight, ever since Baron Ludwig Von Richthofen the Red Baron's Focke-Wulf.

PAF F-16s are properly renamed F-A-16s (Focked-Ass 16s.)
Now bring in those Tejas squadrons to complete the massacre...


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