MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

[arshyam]

Confirmation of the famous kill-switch. What can be done to them, can be done to us. Never buy Yank fighters.

Talk about a coincidence

Only yesterday, I was reading a scenario written by Dileep saar (link), and there is this part where an IAF C130J has trouble picking up certain "friendly" assets via RWR*. They figure out a way eventually, but for a moment I was wondering that was hidden in that RWR unit. And next day what do I see on BRF - a real world instance of a similar capability...

Dileep chetta, if you are reading, take a bow. That sequence in The Cyst was prescient.

* Trying to avoid giving spoilers. Please read the story, fully engrossing.

[ramana]

This assurance from US is similar to the many assurances they gave since 1952 when they started equipping TSPA with advances weaponry that it wont be used against India.

Why does TSPA need JDAM and AMRAAM to hit Taliban when that job is being done by the USAF in Afghanistan?

Duplicity is the name name.

[Dileep]

What 'panchabhujam' actually does is to advice the resident Yuck Chager of the day to go and pull some plugs from the EffSolahs under his watch. Networking over the good old trusty "sneakernet" onlee. All these satellite GPS thingamagic are good for fiction.

I do not believe the AMRAAMs are geo fenced. What happened is the Pakis fired them from afar to make a statement. Most probably their seekers got blinded by our ECM and they lost their way.

Thanks arshayam. I would say unkil is a fool if he doesn't do these things to protect his and allies assets.

[manjgu]

only as a arm chair warrior.... reading AM Masand article... i think there were enough IAF numbers in the air ... the onlee thing was that probably we didnt expect them breaking the ROE and launching missiles... if Abhi had decided not to go after the F 16, the PAF effort would look like a mickey mouse attempt. with his Mig going down and PAF being able to hide their F16 wreckage, they could claim victory over IAF for their domestic consumption.

[UlanBatori]

And apparently, phoren consumption as the "ejjikated well-inphorumed Injun SCIENTIFIC opinion" vs. the unwashed scientifically illiterate aam yindoo jingos such as moiself. Read too many Nadkarni horror stories in REDIFF 1990s. Made Hosy Hoseph look unbiased in comparison.

[Karan M]

Even before we saw them coming Unkil would have seen and detected them mobilising the F-16s , selling your own wares gives one some distinct advantage and leverage .

How? Unless there is SATCOM in these F-16s how would the US know?

AM Masand's point about we not mobilising in enough numbers is something which I subscribe to as well but that's perhaps not palatable to folks who only like bojitive vibes.

We had 10 mins advance warning, that was enough to run 4x Su-30 MKIs, 2x Mirage 2000s and 2x MiG-21 Bisons (perhaps 4?).
Point made by a fighter pilot was that you don't launch all assets, so that you conserve fuel status. You wait & see how the situation develops. There could have been a misreading of the situation in that we did'nt realize the gravity of the situation and the PAF would surge assets.

[parshuram]

https://twitter.com/schaheid/status/1108668495888293888

A Pakistani handle claiming 4 missiles from WINCO Abhi downed Bison . Can gurus comment

[Karan M]

https://twitter.com/schaheid/status/1108668495888293888

A Pakistani handle claiming 4 missiles from WINCO Abhi downed Bison . Can gurus comment

They have taken the 3rd missile and broken it into two groups and attempting to pass it off as 4x missiles.

Trying too hard.

Why can't they just fly all their F-16s? Now I am cent per cent sure Abhi downed a F-16.

Oh wait, heres what they will do. Ask a Turkish 2 seater to join their formation and take a pic. Or ask Erdogan to lend one for pics. No games too small for ISI. While our MOD goofs sit and play oh so moral games and who knows what.

[banrjeer]

The LCA depends on certain engines. Since India is not fully self-sufficient It has to keep all parties engaged Europe, US and Russia and buy from all so none gets absolute leverage. This automatically means keeping Unkil actively engaged as well.

[Hari Nair]

Given all these, I found the AM's article to be a bit like reading the tweets from Pakistan, except written in pukka Angreji, sorry. Deja vu of Admiral "Golf" Nadkarni's articles demanding that the LCA project be cancelled.

I would not know about Adm Nadkarni in any manner,
But having worked in a nearby Directorate, when Air Mshl Harish Masand was working as he said he was (and his background) , I would advise reading his article in a perhaps, more clinical and dispassionate manner. Your comments appear as if we are missing the Woods for the Trees.
The second point is that I may be ruffling some feathers here:
Having operated very closely for a while with our "friends" of the PAF across in the MiddleEast in a somewhat neutral location, there may be a few nasty surprises:
- They appear to be close mirror images of us - which need not be surprising since we all were from the same stock. There are, however, differences that are emerging due to our diverging backgrounds and environments. Those chaps are thinking individuals some of them as razor sharp as any of us; and as I could understand, are hampered more than us due to some terrific shortage of resources. They really are on a thin razor's edge. They make up for that in bombast, chest-beating and perception management.
- Request do NOT underestimate our adversary by underestimating his intelligence.
- Its nice to think of and attribute cartoonish foolishness or buffoonery to our adversary as I have read in several posts in our forums- however, I am not so sure that it is anywhere near the truth.

[saip]

Few days ago they displayed TWO missiles and now they have four. Obviously thoes two mated and produced these extra missiles. Pathetic.

[Hari Nair]

I read AM Masand's article with interest. A couple of points:

Also, if the MiG-21 was shot down immediately after the F-16, surely the F-16 wreckage should also be close to where the MiG-21 came down just a few kilometers across the LoC. If that be so, why is it that we have not been able to acquire the imagery of that crash site/wreckage? Also, why didn’t Abhinandan launch the longer range R-77 missile instead of choosing to chase the F-16 for an R-73 CCM launch, as has been reported.

Given all these, I found the AM's article to be a bit like reading the tweets from Pakistan, except written in pukka Angreji, sorry. Deja vu of Admiral "Golf" Nadkarni's articles demanding that the LCA project be cancelled.

Of course it is commendable that the AM suggests more introspection in the IAF about what stores to carry etc.

I would not know about Adm Nadkarni in any manner,
But having worked in a nearby Directorate, when Air Mshl Harish Masand was working as he said he was (and his background) , I would advise reading his article in a perhaps, more clinical and dispassionate manner. Your comments appear as if we are missing the Woods for the Trees.
The second point is that I may be ruffling some feathers here:
Having operated very closely for a while with our "friends" of the PAF across in the MiddleEast in a somewhat neutral location, there may be a few nasty surprises:
- They appear to be close mirror images of us - which need not be surprising since we all were from the same stock. There are, however, differences that are emerging due to our diverging backgrounds and environments. Those chaps are thinking individuals some of them as razor sharp as any of us; and as I could understand, are hampered more than us due to some terrific shortage of resources. They really are on a thin razor's edge. They make up for that in bombast, chest-beating and perception management.
- Request do NOT underestimate our adversary by underestimating his intelligence.
- Its nice to think of and attribute cartoonish foolishness or buffoonery to our adversary as I have read in several posts in our forums- however, I am not so sure that it is anywhere near the truth.

[sudeepj]

https://twitter.com/schaheid/status/1108668495888293888

A Pakistani handle claiming 4 missiles from WINCO Abhi downed Bison . Can gurus comment

R73 schematic


The warhead is in the middle, and the fourth missile from the left is exactly what would remain if that warhead blows up. Its possible that even the R77 was fired, as for that also, the warhead section is missing. The warheads are made of inert explosives and likely wont explode in a crash or a fire. (They can 'burn up' though).

This actually explains why Abhinandana was shot down. If he was carrying 4 missiles and a tank on the centerline, there was no room for the jammer pod. This also makes it clear what a great defensive aid the Israeli jammer pods are. Even if AMRAAM versions with the PAF are fired at a plane carrying that jammer, most likely, that missile will miss.

Finally, your air force chief, your defense minister has said that the F16 was shot down. Pakis are engaging you in a game of 'one upmanship', where in this one little skirmish, they claim to have proven their equipment, and that their fizzle ya pilots are better than the IAF. Nothing could be further from the truth.

An air war, even more than a ground war, is one system going against another. If there was a real war going on, every Pakistani airbase that these planes took off from would have been under sustained attack by Brahmos, Spice, Kab1500, Popeye, even long range pinaka ... In case of war, rest assured that the IAF plans to destroy most PAF planes on the ground. Even if some PAF planes escape, their POL supplies will be under attack too.. and they may not have the fuel to mount sorties.

Trust your air force chief when he says your airforce can beat them.

[UlanBatori]

I am awaiting proof from Pakistan Twitter, that PN Ghazi actually sank the INS Vikrant in 1971. Any day now. Confirmed immediately and unquestioningly by retired Indian Service Chiefs since Bheshtern Teetar writers with Real Expart-Sounding Bheshtern names, (born in Faisalabad)using bad language have also said the same thing...

I wonder why the rest of us should even waste our time. Hang our sdre heads in shame and hide in dark corners and dhoti-shiver?

So let's see: the pilot came out unharmed except for PainInDaButt from the ejection seat deployment and landing in Pakistan, the missiles were recovered, some even in more complete condition than on takeoff, the fuselage landed in pretty-much the same place, breaking up only on impact... what sort of mijjile was Pakistan using to shoot down the MiG I wonder? The Gravitational Attraction Field of Mohterma Hasina AtimBum?

[Trikaal]

This missile display has to be the biggest self-goal by Pakis in recent times

[habal]

This actually explains why Abhinandan was shot down.

you too brutus ??
can you examine any MiG-21 engine failure/bird hit wreckage in India and compare with the MiG-21 wreckage site @ horan kotla. Is there any difference ??

& why is F16 wreckage spread out as drop tank somewhere, missile somewhere else, rest of debris scattered all around.

[parshuram]

@sudeepj and all Thanks

PS : There is no where a doubt on IAF kill of F-16 . My question was to understand the fakery of Pakistanis .

[saip]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D14kFXFWsAACqjg.jpg:small

This is the link to TWO missiles posted on 17th. In four days ther bred two more? Breeding like rabbits, sorry being pakis i should have said pigs.

[Karan M]

Great stuff Sudeep, and Singha in the other thread.

[Singha]

The other two took time to sort out from the f16 debris

[saip]

Just curious. I know Abhinandan might be carrying a centerline tank while on CAP. But would he still be carrying it when he switched to interception mode? It impedes speed a lot and he went into high speed pursuit. I would think he would have jettisoned it and it would have fallen away from the wreckage.

[Karan M]

Nair sir, agree completely that they aren't to be underestimated. The AMRAAM usage for instance & our reliance on ROEs that put us at a disadvantage. Sometimes on seeing our guys I do get the impression that we are still playing to some Marquis of Queensberry's rules on how gentlemen should play a boxing match (ironically, the man himself took down Oscar Wilde in a vicious, no holds barred yet carefully planned ambush), whereas the other side follows no rules at all, and is out to score a perception gain somehow or the other. And I STILL cant understand for what reason the MOD is sitting on the evidence IAF has submitted to it.

[Karan M]

I dont understand why Masand sir is so worried about EW failing on the Bison, for one as he remarks, its most likely it didn't carry a pod. 4x missiles & a centerline tank. No space for a pod.

[ramana]

KaranM a greater goal was attained. So all this is water.

[nachiket]

Even if the Mig-21 was carrying a jamming pod, it is not foolproof. The AMRAAM and R-77 are able to home in on the source of the jamming.

Our guys were starting with a huge handicap in that engagement since they weren't cleared to engage unless fired upon as long as the pakis were on their side of the LoC. (at least that is how I've understood it). Hopefully the RoE's were changed quickly after that.

[nam]

From my limited knowledge on BVR tactics.

I would assume you fly higher than your target to get a look down and guide the BVR to target. Closer to the kill zone, the better

When the distance is large like 50KM, it gives time for the target to just turn tail and escape. The BVR in tail chase(i presume powered flight) giving a range of 20-30KM.

this would apply to target which flies vertical on a BVR launch. The BVR now needs to fly higher in a powered flight and potentially cannot keep pace with the target after 20KM. And after that it just drops down.

So making the BVR chase you is the obvious tactic, i can think of to evade a BVR. A Ramjet powered will have better chance with all up powered flight.

Then i guess are the jammers and towed decoys, if the BVR manages to come closer.

[UlanBatori]

The other two took time to sort out from the f16 debris

I was wondering that too: The one where the nose cone is mangled may be from inside the F-16. All of this reinforces the certainty that the Paki Herrow pilots jumped out as soon as they knew the MiG had a lock that they could not shake. Wise. But unfortunate that they landed among their own terrorist brethren.

The Air Marshal also disses the story that the pilot was a Paki Air Marshal's son. Where is this conclusively debunked? Has the herrow in question appeared in public?

[Sanju]

I am with the Yakherder, re the AM's article.

Also, what I find interesting is this particular para:

Lastly, the training in the IAF had also taught us that a good fighter pilot never leaves behind a formation member and even stays with the downed teammate till he is rescued, if fuel and other conditions permit. So, did his formation members stay with him at least till his MiG-21 was shot at and couldn’t they together threaten the attacking aircraft?

Which take us to another point in that article, the questioning of the use of R73 and not the R77. The point being that he was very close to his adversary when he fired the R73. As reported by UBCN, his engine ingested the F-16 debris and he bailed and the plane crashed.

In addition, Pakis being Pakis, they have claimed that it was shot down by their Bandar. They have displayed so many missiles even going as far as showing the R-73 in a mix & match setting.

Does anyone recall the existence or instance of the Pakis showning the missile that shot down the Bison?
Coz it doesn't exist.

[Aditya G]

For all we know the extra R-73 pieces could be from one of the drones which Su-30s shot down.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D14kFXFWsAACqjg.jpg:small

This is the link to TWO missiles posted on 17th. In four days ther bred two more? Breeding like rabbits, sorry being pakis i should have said pigs.

[sudeepj]

This actually explains why Abhinandan was shot down.

you too brutus ??
can you examine any MiG-21 engine failure/bird hit wreckage in India and compare with the MiG-21 wreckage site @ horan kotla. Is there any difference ??

& why is F16 wreckage spread out as drop tank somewhere, missile somewhere else, rest of debris scattered all around.

Didnt the chief say our plane was shot down? I was under the impression he said that..

If he hasnt said that, I take it back and will edit my post accordingly.

[UlanBatori]

I have serious doubts whether an AM(Retd) ACTUALLY WROTE that article - or did some papparazzoo paki "interview" him and add their own garbage to a bar discussion? Note that the website at Indian Defence etc IS called "Interview". Not Opinion, not Essay, not True Confessions. Interview. In a bar?
The one point which seems to be the Raisin Dieter (* c BRF lex-e-con) of the article is

"I TOLD them to carry the ecm pod inside so they wouldn't forget to take it with them but did they listen? Hain? Hain? Nooooooooo!!!"

(swig, swig!)
The rest seems to be mangled, garbled paki-ized garbage from a paki, given the citing of garbage "western" paki twits, sada paki twits etc.
The part about
Did joo hang around at least until your buddy was shot down and try to engage his killers

The whole thing is so confused. He claims it was all one melee, not any one-on-one. Then those videos of contrails with puffs of smoke, and the parachutes, must be all garbage because there are no other contrails to be seen in the whole sky. VikramS claimed that a missile contrail could be seen going and hitting the MiG but I saw none.

is a dead giveaway of utterly nasty pakiness and Nadkarniitis.

Apologies to Nairgolis but we on the wide windswept steppes of Mongolia, inhaling the invigorating fragrance of yak dung, call it as v hallucinate.
Psst: Isn't IDR a shoo - klaw rag? He seemed to have some giant ego burr up his (never mind) about this whole thing all along? THAT would explain a lot of things. Maybe time 4 Gloves-Off?

[UlanBatori]

Didnt the chief say our plane was shot down? I was under the impression he said that.. If he hasnt said that, I take it back and will edit my post accordingly.

AFAIK, he and all GOIites and the WCdr himself have left that point totally blank. "plane went down" is undisputed. NOBODY except pakis and their panthankarayas (Sinhalese term of immense respect..) with the bheshtern naams, and the RaGa crowd have claimed "shot down".

We OTOH at UBCN have filled in that blank by sheer reason and fact. Carefully assembling all known facts like little pieces of an F-16.

[nachiket]

Apologies to Nairgolis but we on the wide windswept steppes of Mongolia, inhaling the invigorating fragrance of yak dung, call it as v hallucinate.

UB, Hari Nair is NOT "hnair" who we call nairgolis. He is Gp.Capt (Retd) Hari Nair of the IAF.

[UlanBatori]

Oops! Thx, nachiketji.

No offence, Gp.Capji. Based on your assessment of the AM, I have to convey concern about the genesis and content of that article. Wonder if someone could discreetly point the AM's attention to the article: he may not be aware of what came out of the interview. Interesting reaction may ensue. But in any event, we simply call these things as we see them, absolutely no reflection on the postors/sources, just on the logic and facts cited. We do try to scan and absorb all available facts and remember a good bit - of course with total absence of bias But regardless of who says what, if it don't make sense, we say so. Even if it means going in the face of esteemed and feared Moderator/Predator Mullahs such as Mullah Nairgolis.

Take away the bit about the ECM pod being outside vs. inside (which is quasi-technical and the sole reason for ascribing "authenticity", and compare the rest of the article to the narrative from Pakistan / certain desperate Indian political parties /discredited "expert commentators". Ppl can see what we mean.

BTW, to answer the pooch about Official Announcement of the cause of the MiG crash - one "Fellow Pilot" etc came on early and gave a detailed account of the dogfight with terms such as "WingOver..." . The gist was that he claimed that an expert pilot, having seen his missile hit home, was in such fear of going another 500 m into Pakistan that he then pulled up so hard that he stalled his inlet and engine!!!!! And could not figure out how to recover from that despite some 15K feet altitude.

And then concluded by blaming that on ancient engines and aircraft due to (certain political parties) and wondered about the happy state if that had been an Imported Rafale instead (also delayed by same political party).

We dismissed that too: Using combat occurrences to push cheap political points immediately discredited that Twit. But we do point to the fact that (s)he too accepted the narrative that no missile hit the MiG.

[nachiket]

Also, what I find interesting is this particular para:

Lastly, the training in the IAF had also taught us that a good fighter pilot never leaves behind a formation member and even stays with the downed teammate till he is rescued, if fuel and other conditions permit. So, did his formation members stay with him at least till his MiG-21 was shot at and couldn’t they together threaten the attacking aircraft?

While the AM makes some good points, I did not understand this part at all. Maybe I;m misunderstanding what he is saying here but from what I've read here and elsewhere there were only 2 Mig-21's on CAP which got involved in the engagement. The other 2 IAF formations (M2ks and Su-30's) were some distance away and busy dodging AMRAAMs.

WingCo Abhinandan is the only one who we know for sure got within visual range of the pakis and he was over the LoC (or very close to it) when he went down. If his wingman was with him how was he alone supposed to challenge superior numbers of F-16's in enemy airspace? That would be a surefire way to get shot down. And being across the LoC the chances of WingCo Abhinandan getting rescued by Indian forces were practically zero.

[UlanBatori]

I think the helo tried.

[Atmavik]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4maPRqArQk8

well balanced perspective by Air Marshal Mr. K K Nohwar on the mig 21 vs f16 dog fight.

Its a must watch for all the ACMs (Arm Chair Marshals)

[Bishwa]

I would not know about Adm Nadkarni in any manner,
But having worked in a nearby Directorate, when Air Mshl Harish Masand was working as he said he was (and his background) , I would advise reading his article in a perhaps, more clinical and dispassionate manner. Your comments appear as if we are missing the Woods for the Trees. .

Air Marshal Harish Masand is a Vir Chakra winner from 1971

"On the 4th December, 1971, Flying Officer Harish Masand was No. 3 in a 3 aircraft strike mission for attacking an enemy airfield. Just short of the target, the formation was intercepted by two Pakistan Air Force Sabre aircraft. In the ensuing dog fight, he shot down one Sabre aircraft. He also undertook a number of Fighter Reconnaissance missions in the enemy territory and completed the task assigned to him."

[Bishwa]

..and how will that work ? The IFF circuit linkage is understood as it is designed with intent to avoid fratricide. But weapon guidance ?? You will need physical access to the aeroplane for that. Using the Link 16 as a backdoor is an option - but then the aeroplane needs to be equipped with Satnav, rather than LOS links.

Hari, AMRAAMs use GPS potentially? Would it not be possible to use that to control where it will work and where it will not?

[VikramS]

The Pakis have confirmed what happened.

Very likely WC Abhinandan fired the longer range missile and while the F-16 was busy evading it, closed in to finish the deal with the R73.

The missile remains confirm that the explosive charge triggered which can only happen with the proximity fuse is engaged.

So the Pakis have confirmed that the missile from Mig21 did engage a target.

Tactically brilliant