MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

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VikramS
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby VikramS » 24 Mar 2019 00:52

BTW on f-16.net Tom Cooper is giving it to the TSPAF fan-boys.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby saip » 24 Mar 2019 01:11

What will be the rank of a ground controller? Will he above a Wg Cdr? Just curious.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Bishwa » 24 Mar 2019 01:56

What will be the rank of a ground controller? Will he above a Wg Cdr? Just curious.


In the battle of boyra, the GC was by Flt Lt KB Bagchi. He got a Vayu Sena Medal for his contribution.

ACM PC Lals book says it was Bagchi who gave the order "shoot" at 1459 hours. The pilots were Flt Lt Ganapathy, Flt Lt Massey, Flg Offr Lazarus, Flg Offr Suarez

He later became a Wing Co : http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Database/9987

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby UlanBatori » 24 Mar 2019 02:58

These are interesting points. OT from the long-beaten-2-death theme of this thread (pun intended).

Back in the 1980s the story was that Soviet/Warsaw Pact doctrine called for many platforms under ground control, whereas US/NATO depended on far fewer platforms with much greater autonomy under general ROE and mission orders. The latter I believe, grew from WW2 experience where many missions were long-range and conducted in radio silence: carrier-based raids at Midway, and bombing raids over Japan and Germany; whereas Indian (and Soviet) experience was mostly in interceptor/local area defence modes. About the only exceptions to the latter were the raids over Peshawar etc in 1965 and 71.

Doctrine I am sure impacts system design, so many of the Russian-derived craft may still be suited to those. But what about integrating these super(expensive) platforms such as Rafale into the picture - and perhaps re-thinking the use of Su-30s?

One wonders what would have happened if all the Indian "interceptors" were simply tasked to fire at will, kill Pakis. This time I ***DO NOT** believe the notion that people were waiting for New Delhi Babus to give the Shoot! orders because no less than the PM had ordered right after Pulwama that the MILITARY was to decide when and where, and execute.

I assume that IAF pilots are sort-of aware of the need to keep enemy planes from dropping bombs inside India, and to keep them from shooting at other Indian planes?

Perhaps this is a shock to long-drilled doctrine? Perhaps military leaders have not adjusted to the realities of "Freedom"?

OTOH, (let me see if I can provoke Shri Brar) I see US Doctrine moving more and more into Net-Centric Warfare. But even there, the Net-Centric is to enhance Situational Awareness of individual pilots, which is a localized function (a flight of several manned craft and UAVs with a couple of Flying Cellphone Towers aka F-35s to coordinate them). Also to coordinate weapon effectiveness. Done in a ground-fixed region, I suppose these are the functions of the Ground Controllers of WW2.

Isn't it time to hand those off to the squadron-leaders and their computers?

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Cain Marko » 24 Mar 2019 03:03

Not sure how this works but wouldn't IAF AEW have recording of what happened in terms of flight tracks? Would the release of such information compromise opsec?

I guess we'll have to wait for another Kaiser Tufail to acknowledgement in the future

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby UlanBatori » 24 Mar 2019 03:31

One more to Hariji's post:
- It is here I have a major grouse - on our side there were only selective leaks to 'studio journos/generals' of the aerial engagement, some of which were very obviously contradictory and some which verged on the hyberbole.


IMO your point here is spot-on, but the problem is with the govt and military bureaucracy and their British Colonial attitudes. Let me give two examples.

1) Back circa 2000, GOI came out with an extensive Report on Terrorism. Claimed to name names of organizations etc. In those days "we" were fighting a very tough war to inform ppl around the world through our only outlet - the web - about the facts and realities of the "indiapakistan" "Kashmir Problem". You may laugh now, but in May 1999 if you did a web survey (and we did) there was EXACTLY ONE site that gave anything close to the Indian pov on "Kashmir": the Indian Embassy site at Washington DC aka "Dupli-City".

We were thrilled that such a report was "released". But it never came out in public. It was only given (a few paper copies) to Senior Media Persons.
All of whom, as I have come to believe since, are in the pay or under the thumb of anti-India interests.

We tried asking some of the media persons, very respectfully. The one or two who responded were rude.

2) Back in early January 2005 (or maybe since it was early 2006) the Indian Navy "released" a report on the Indian Navy's operations during and after the Dec. 2004 tsunami. I was thrilled: I wanted to write about the absolutely awesome work done by the Navy and tell the world about it, with accurate facts. For the first time in my memory, India was the First-Responder Rescuer, who operated with no need for the Heroic Western Military Bwanas landing to bring food and water to the starving natives (such as happened even after the East Pakistan Cyclone of 1969: British Marines are said to have heroically ignored the lack of permission from Paki authorities to go ashore on marooned islands to bring food and water to the dying survivors there, after waiting for a week or two offshore).

I wrote a nice full-disclosure letter to the Appropriate Channels at the Navy (in Kochi) requesting a copy. I offered to go get it myself from their office.
To their credit, they did respond: they said NO.
I was only an Indian citjen.

I bet I could have found that report if I had searched through, say, foreign media or foreign intel services. Or if I had pretended to be a papparazzo, preferably Phoren. (I actually have such credentials of UBCN.. :twisted: ) But I was pretty disgusted and got diverted to other things. Someone needs to write that history (IN in and after the tsunami).

Bottom line:
Indian Babus are STILL used to treating INDIAN TAXPAYERS like sh1t. And bowing and scraping before Phoren/Gora anti-India interlocutors, inviting them to be presented with copies of the taxpayer-funded reports. See "Pakiness" above.

The Poojya PMji calls himself the First Servant, but the Babus have most certainly not "got" that message. If Modiji sends a few of these, say, on Phakt-Phinding Mijjuns to Siachen in winter or Nicobar in summer like George Fernandes did, I will celebrate.

You and the AM(Retd) have my sincere blessings to go kick some of these asses, in the above respect, but please focus your target info well.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby UlanBatori » 24 Mar 2019 03:33

The corollary to the above is that I scanned those "official reports as Revealed To Top Media" as they came out in the Blow-By-Blow Accounts. Clearly
(a) the IAF had given them blank sheets
or
(b) the IAF gave military reports in military jargon which these idiots had no clue how to read
or
(c) they tossed the reports and did what they usually do: ape some "western expert" (all those are Pakis) from Twitter.
There was nothing there that was new or surprising, and much was nonsense.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby UlanBatori » 24 Mar 2019 03:40

Corollary 2: Why I say that "western experts" are mostly if not all, Pakis:

Because I know, from detailed investigations and cross-correlation of IPs and email addresses back in the late 90s/early 2000s. Used to be an authoritative expert on these, in the days when
(a) The Lashkar-e-Toiba openly collected funds in the USA, directing donors to banks located in (as I recall) Maryland, Ohio and Colorado. The organizations were located at Ohio State University, Colorado State or U. Colorado, and Maryland /DC are infested with Pakis.
(b) Those who claimed to be "US Air Force U-2 Pilots" who knew all about the Cold War 1960s, turned out to be (Paki) students at California colleges.

Some of our tactics included threatening to report one or two to the Anti-Blasphemy Investigating Teams of the L-e-T in Lahore for posting on the web at noon Friday, instead of braying. That got them to expose themselves as Pakis in California :rotfl:

Like I said, the Internet is a jungle. Welcome to it, your combat skills are needed, but the enemy here is also vicious and cunning and persistent, and go to extraordinary lengths. (But so are we..) :mrgreen:

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Lalmohan » 24 Mar 2019 05:34

one thing to remember is that 'balakot++' is a war like situation and NOT a war situation. the escalation ladder had not been proven, it was being tested. the idea was that there should be a calibrated escalation such that there was no run away condition leading to an out of control shooting match with nukes being lobbed. therefore it is expected that there would have been tighter ROE and possibly clearance to shoot orders, etc. this means that the IAF the next morning would have been at pains to be defensive. go back to the start of this thread, you will see (pre speculation) that the F16 that was shot down came over the LOC to raid Indian territory and was involved in the dropping of munitions... under these criteria, it is easy to imagine that varthaman was cleared to engage (or pre-cleared)

we just don't know

but what we do know now is that the Indian System (from PMO down to Varthaman's thumb on the red button) was operating under control and it has successfully called the pakistani's bluff

that's all we need to know for now until the official version comes out

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Bishwa » 24 Mar 2019 05:50

saip wrote:What will be the rank of a ground controller? Will he above a Wg Cdr? Just curious.


In the case of the Breguet Atlantique, The GC was Wing Co V.S. Sharma and the pilot who fired was Sq Ldr PK Bundela. It was Wing Co Sharma who vectored Sq Bundela in and gave the order to shoot

Reference : http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/ent ... e_Incident

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby SaiK » 24 Mar 2019 06:39

this is an old show of ndtv good times with then Flt. Lt. Abhinandhan. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7g_GkN-kk0 for your pleasure onree

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby tandav » 24 Mar 2019 15:28

Bishwa wrote:
saip wrote:What will be the rank of a ground controller? Will he above a Wg Cdr? Just curious.


In the case of the Breguet Atlantique, The GC was Wing Co V.S. Sharma and the pilot who fired was Sq Ldr PK Bundela. It was Wing Co Sharma who vectored Sq Bundela in and gave the order to shoot

Reference : http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/ent ... e_Incident


Post the 1999 shootdown SqLr PK Bundela ejected from his Mig 21 in a air crash in april 2002 and died Aug 2002. The aircrash was attributed to technical fault. Some reports pointing to his plane being sabotaged and there was chatter in the interweb that the technical fault was orchestrated by enemy action.

https://www.honourpoint.in/profile/squadron-leader-prashant-kumar-bundela/

Its one of the reasons I feel that Armed forces who have participated in combat should remain unnamed and incognito.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby yensoy » 24 Mar 2019 16:18

Rakesh wrote:...Official reports state that 4 - 5 AMRAAMs were launched at our 8 aircraft CAP team. None of those AMRAAMs found their mark, due to Elta jamming pods on the MiG-21 and the Su-30MKI. Upon seeing the ineffectiveness of their AMRAAMs, 23 of the aircraft turned back to Pakistan. One F-16 tried to ingress and dropped bombs near the Brigade HQ in Naushera. But even that failed. Wing Commander Varthaman quite possibly gave chase to that particular F-16 and shot it down. Unfortunately his own aircraft was lost in the process...


If some of those AMRAAMs had downed a couple of Indian fighters on our side of the LOC doing CAP, it would have been seriously escalatory, and would have made their entire air force a target for BVR retaliation. I don't think that was the Paki intent. They wanted to come into our garden, pee like dogs to leave their mark, do a face-saving equal-equal and head back. I think the payloads they dropped were duds by design rather than incompetence.

Now if they did launch multiple AMRAAMs, it's probably because the actions didn't go as scripted. Did we get a radar lock on them, forcing them to panic? Did we actually launch missiles before they did? Is that number of 4-5 accurate? How many F-16s launched missiles? Could the 4-5 actually be only 4, and launched from that lone F-16 which was taken down? Could that pilot have gone rogue?

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Lalmohan » 24 Mar 2019 16:35

the F16 that was shot down was part of the strike package. its job would have been to designate targets for the others in the strike package. they were being covered by the 4 F16 CAP over Mangla. look at the map, these are not large distances. the idea would have been to distract the IAF long enough to let the strike package sneak in and do an ==
the bandars and mirage_roses didn't find an opportunity to ingress so they were not committed to the attack (and brown salwars)
the f16's (maybe due to superior nav/attack capabilities) did find an ingress opportunity and went in quick and hoped to do a dump and run. the bison(s) intercepted them our side of the LOC, but the aircraft came down on their side. that tells you how shallow the PAF raid was
nobody went rogue - everyone executed their mission. then its down to the roll of the dice and the 'fortune that smiles like a rebel's whore'*


* Macbeth (paraphrased) - describing the battle (against the Norweyan raiders if my memory serves me well)

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Rahul M » 24 Mar 2019 17:12

VikramS wrote:BTW on f-16.net Tom Cooper is giving it to the TSPAF fan-boys.

ow, he has really taken them to the cleaners ! :lol:
thx vikram.

btw, this shows that the reality is quite apparent to a serious researcher like Cooper. unlike the click baity hushkit or whatever.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Cooper_(author)

here's his version. It is not clear from this snippet but he is clearly leaning to the view that a PAF plane went down.
There was no 'dogfight' on 27 February.
The PAF was 'orbiting' on one side of the LOC, the IAF on the other. Then the PAF found an opportune moment: Su-30MKIs were heading in opposite direction (one can't orbit in direction of the opponent all the time), and it appeared to the Pakistanis that nobody is airborne over Srinagar. So, they sent 4 F-16s 'in'.

As these 4 F-16s moved in, the Su-30MKIs turned to intercept, in turn prompting the other 4 F-16s to engage them. That's how it happened few AIM-120C-5s 'migrated to India'. But, since AMRAAMs were fired from 30km+ away, all missed (about 10+ years ago, when some really well-informed people were still finding it worth to frequent places like this forum, one could still read why: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6302&p=75873&hilit=Looks+like+I%27ve+yanked+your+chain#p75873).

Furthermore, the problem is there's a mountain chain with 4,000m (that's about 13,000ft) high peaks in between the LOC and Srinagar. Thus, the PAF AWACS missed the IAF scrambling several MiG-21s from Awantipora FOB and Srinagar AB in response to ingressing F-16s. Yes, ladies and gentlemen: contrary to video games, in reality radars can't see through mountains. First surprise here, I guess.

So, when the MiGs climbed over that mountain chain... 'surprise, surprise': they found themselves at 15,000ft+ - high above F-16s that were ingressing at about 7,000ft. The lead MiG dove, ignoring the fact he's crossing the LOC while doing so, one of F-16s came up towards the MiG. What happened next is unclear.

...that is: until the moments captured on several cell-phones, showing that MiG going down in flames.

Where have I got this? Call it a 'rumour'.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby yensoy » 24 Mar 2019 19:24

What is the probability that a Paki F-16 makes it to anywhere near Srinagar? Wouldn't it get shot down by SAM somewhere on the way?

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Rajiv Lather » 24 Mar 2019 19:39

Sorry I forgot - the team that planned and executed the air strike are heroes too. My fault.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Kashi » 24 Mar 2019 19:40

Who wrote the above fictional piece?

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby UlanBatori » 24 Mar 2019 20:04

deleted, many thanks.
Rahulji: Consider that Pak Mission Planners are not exactly unaware of the geography, and whether they can see what is rising from the Srinagar air base?? And that there **ARE** planes assigned to protect Srinagar since at least 1965?
Last edited by UlanBatori on 24 Mar 2019 20:22, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 24 Mar 2019 20:06

UBCN, the garbage has been cleaned up. Any attempt to repeat it will not be tolerated either.

Dont waste your time on it.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby manjgu » 24 Mar 2019 21:15

yensoy..things are not so b/w as u think... mountains and the short distances mean anything can happen.... SAM's are not like God..always up..working. able to see everywhere...

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Rakesh » 24 Mar 2019 21:55

yensoy wrote:What is the probability that a Paki F-16 makes it to anywhere near Srinagar? Wouldn't it get shot down by SAM somewhere on the way?

Very minimal. Would be detected even prior to crossing the LoC. Once crossed, our fighters or SAMs would intercept and shoot it down.

An innovative use of tatics and terrain can delay detection, but only up to a point. Eventually you will show up on radar...that is if you are trying to make it all the way to Srinagar.

Even a one way trip (suicide mission) would be challenging.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby UlanBatori » 24 Mar 2019 22:20

And there is the small question: Suppose one DID get through to Srinagar: where will Muzzarabad, Sialkot, laHore, Pindi and Islamagood hide?

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Austin » 24 Mar 2019 22:39

The Terrain of Kashmir should favour both the side to penetrate deep before they get detected specially if the attacker has the initative and it involves well coordinated mission planning.

Compared to Plain of Punjab or Rajasthan , PAF flight over Kashmir or IAF flights of POK would represent a challenge for both the sides as Radars would have blind zones

I am sure PAF might be burning mid night oil to figure out how best they can penetrate deep inside Indian Airspace and would have ran many ELINT mission during the high alert much like IAF did and would have learnt a thing or two from it.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby habal » 24 Mar 2019 22:43

penetrate deep inside and then ??

no home to go back

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby yensoy » 24 Mar 2019 23:07

Exactly, friends. An F-16 would have zero hope of making it across to Srinagar without being intercepted by CAP or hit by SAM on the way in, and if not, most certainly on the way out.

Which is why I think the following is hogwash:
Tom Cooper wrote:Then the PAF found an opportune moment: Su-30MKIs were heading in opposite direction (one can't orbit in direction of the opponent all the time), and it appeared to the Pakistanis that nobody is airborne over Srinagar. So, they sent 4 F-16s 'in'.


As I said earlier, their goal would have been to pee in our yard, not to enter our drawing room.

The AMRAAMs being fired from beyond their target ranges might have been a panic reaction to being locked by our radar, and not a deliberate action to hit our air assets. Does that make sense?

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby habal » 24 Mar 2019 23:14

btw a PLAAF air marshal has blurted out something which proves why the chinese armed forces replace battle experience with quakery. No wonder then why the chinese armed forces do not want to be caught within 100 miles of any battlefield.

he royally uvacha, 'MiG-21 was not bought down by F16 but by a JF17 thundaar aam which didn't explode."

so right from horse mouth jf17 aam doesnt explode, it merely hits.
https://m.hindustantimes.com/india-news ... P_amp.html

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Austin » 24 Mar 2019 23:43

habal wrote:penetrate deep inside and then ??

no home to go back


Why not , Pilots train day in and out for such thing.

It would be an illusion on our part to think that any one can create some kind of water tight AD where nothing can come in and if they do they cant go out. Specially in a hilly mountain terrain where there would be many blind zone which enemy can exploit

Didnt we read that PAF pilots came few km deep in before they were driven out inspite of IAF being on highest alert and a day light mission by them and how a 21 shot an F-16 , The pilots didnt run away just because he saw a superior aircraft but used his strong point training and tactics to fight against the superior one and won the day.

So can PAF fly over Srinagar and may get back sure why not if the initiative is on their side and with good mission planning and bit of luck , Can IAF fly over Islamabad and come back sure why not its just 200 km from Srinagar and the same thing can work for us as well.

But can PAF fly deep inside Punjab or Rajasthan or Mumbai , odds are in our favour.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Rahul M » 25 Mar 2019 00:03

yensoy wrote:Exactly, friends. An F-16 would have zero hope of making it across to Srinagar without being intercepted by CAP or hit by SAM on the way in, and if not, most certainly on the way out.

Which is why I think the following is hogwash:
Tom Cooper wrote:Then the PAF found an opportune moment: Su-30MKIs were heading in opposite direction (one can't orbit in direction of the opponent all the time), and it appeared to the Pakistanis that nobody is airborne over Srinagar. So, they sent 4 F-16s 'in'.


As I said earlier, their goal would have been to pee in our yard, not to enter our drawing room.

The AMRAAMs being fired from beyond their target ranges might have been a panic reaction to being locked by our radar, and not a deliberate action to hit our air assets. Does that make sense?

who said anything about 'making it to srinagar' ? certainly not the thing you have quoted.

rajdhani express leaving howrah, headed towards delhi. does it mean it is in delhi ?? :eek:

in some ways, tom cooper's story (at this point, barring official confirmation it is just that) makes sense.

if I understand what he is saying,
1. Su-30's on CAP above J&K,
2. As the Su's reach a point in their circuit where they head away from the LoC, the Paki erieye notes that and vectors unknown number of F-16/JF-17's as a strike pkg towards 'some target' in J&K. TO avoid detection this pkg would fly in at a relatively low altitude. There might have been a PAF CAP behind and above this pkg, possibly F-16, since that's the one they trust.
3. The pakis may not have picked up the Netra or might have decided to move in regardless. While
4. The Netra picks up the movement and immediately vectors the Bisons towards the strike pkg
5. Srinagar is less than 50 km from the nearest point of LoC, Netra would have alerted the fighters as soon as a large paki formation approached the 10 km line from LoC. That is less than 5 min of flying time for a fast subsonic aircraft.
6. The bisons would have reacted quickly and got airborne, the Su's would also have immediately turned back towards the LoC from their racetrack pattern.
7. As the bisons climbed over the mountains, the heavily laden JF-17's would have been shocked at being bounced by them and with the Su-30's approaching fast towards them, abandoned the mission, jettisioning ordinance as they fled back. Including, one must remember, guided weapons inside their territory . Very few reconstructions of the event explain why the PAF withdrew in a hurry, the mountain theory does explain this.
8. During this merge as the pakis were running helter skelter WC Abhinandan's fired a R77 at a F16, which would have forced it to take evasive action by diving down into the valleys and hoping the R77 lost lock. This would explain why this aircraft could not flee unlike other pakis, allowing the Bison to enter a dogfight scenario and eventually shoot it down with a R73.
===============

again, as I wrote earlier he is not discounting IAF's version at all. In fact he makes it clear time and again that GoI & IAF are believable while GoP or PAF is not. He even brought in the 5 min alam story to make his point. this is not apparent from the quoted piece but is amply clear from the rest of his posts.

But as a serious researcher he can only go by what's confirmed by inconvertible evidence, just like Jagan did.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Bishwa » 25 Mar 2019 00:38

If we assume the Saab AEW was flying at 25000 feet above Islamabad during this encounter, this is the view one would get of the battle zone.

This is going to Tom Coopers point that the AEW may have been blind to the Mig21 joining the fight till it was too late. The pir panjal range would come in between.

Made this using Google Earth. 25000 feet is listed as service ceiling for Saab 340 AEW


Image

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby UlanBatori » 25 Mar 2019 01:24

x
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby VikramS » 25 Mar 2019 01:27

One thing to keep in mind is that A/D is a layered effort. Not every inch can be protected by a CAP cover and that is why the Ground based SAMs are important in providing cover to vital installations.

Another big takeaway is that numbers matter.

The PAF could not engage with the M2Ks going to Balakot because their initial CAPs were decoyed by other IAF formations, and there were just too many M2Ks in the air for them to launch another pair to engage with them.

When the PAF attacked, IAF has enough assets in the air to challenge them.

And if the IAF had more assets on standby they could have even engaged the PAF planes which launched the AAMRAMs, or not even allow the strike package to drop their bombs in the Brigade HQ.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby SidSoma » 25 Mar 2019 01:27

Rahul M wrote:2. As the Su's reach a point in their circuit where they head away from the LoC, the Paki erieye notes that and vectors unknown number of F-16/JF-17's as a strike pkg towards 'some target' in J&K. TO avoid detection this pkg would fly in at a relatively low altitude. There might have been a PAF CAP behind and above this pkg, possibly F-16, since that's the one they trust.


Turning around would not take too much time. The timing would be best when the MKIs are very close to their turn around point farthest away from the LoC. As AM Chopra had put it, the MKIs were closer to Jammu and would have been vectored to the main strike pkg coming in from Sialkot side.

Rahul M wrote:7. As the bisons climbed over the mountains, the heavily laden JF-17's would have been shocked at being bounced by them and with the Su-30's approaching fast towards them, abandoned the mission, jettisioning ordinance as they fled back. Including, one must remember, guided weapons inside their territory . Very few reconstructions of the event explain why the PAF withdrew in a hurry, the mountain theory does explain this.
8. During this merge as the pakis were running helter skelter WC Abhinandan's fired a R77 at a F16, which would have forced it to take evasive action by diving down into the valleys and hoping the R77 lost lock. This would explain why this aircraft could not flee unlike other pakis, allowing the Bison to enter a dogfight scenario and eventually shoot it down with a R73.
===============


By viewing the images of the missiles displayed by Paki, it seems like the R-77 was NOT fired. The motor section seems to have burned off, the fuze and the warhead seem to be in place. I suspect that if the warhead had blown off, the fuze section would have blown off too. Tom cooper stated that both sides had signed a treaty (he was also not able to spot it) that no BVR missiles would be shot over the LoC and this kind of explains the RoE. Once the PAF breached the treaty, IAF decided to take the gloves off (but only after the entire op was completed). This seems to be the reason, Abhi took the fight to WVR. I am a big FAN of UBCN's theory that the MiG was not shot down, but now it appears that the MiG in question may not have been carrying the Jammer. So were no AMRAAMs fired at it ?. May be. No one said it was. So what could have happened is . The F16 was busy lasing the target. Mig-21 pops up from below the montain, The F-16s is now in WVR with Abhi and runs, no time for AMRAAM shots at Abhi. Abhi chases and catches up with the faster jet. Evasive maneuvering, R73 Fired, Hits and Mig ingests the F-16 parts and goes down. The F-16 CAP at Mangla are busy watching the Rambha dance.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby UlanBatori » 25 Mar 2019 01:37

Please read the "serious researcher's" leading sentence and closing sentence. Where does he deviate from the Pakscript?
Oh, yess!!! Because his name is Tom Cooper not Tamam Khubaib, yindoos like the Chicago Consul who gave vija to Dawood Gilani David Headley decide he is a "serious researcher"?
He must go by "factual evidence" and listen to the resonance in the cavity between his ears.

Einsteinullahs, what Paki AEW or AIYYOOO controller gives directions to their combat units ignoring what is going on at air defence bases just over the mountain range? U don't think they have the odd agint within a stone's throw of the runway end with a cellphone patched to his coujin grazing (never mind) sheep on the mountain range?
Rice is out of favor in BRFee diet, hain?
Karanji, this is now getting to be like the Pride&Prejudice Fan Forum with sheer inanity of "discussions".

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby disha » 25 Mar 2019 01:41

Rajiv Lather wrote:PM Modi's tweet "I extend my greetings and best wishes to the people of Pakistan on the National Day of Pakistan. It is time that ppl of Sub-continent work together for a democratic, peaceful, progressive & prosperous region, in an atmosphere free of terror and violence"

We seem to be in a hurry ? What about 44 dead in Pulwama ? Love letter anyone ?


Interesting that we believe selective leaks of ImDim in a hurry and not our own PM.*

Best outcome would be we continuously slap Bakistan via pre-emptive anti-terror strikes and they smilingly say thank you onleee. Our fight is never with people of Bakistan. Our fight is with the terrorists in the havens they have created. And we have been urging them to stop creating terrorist havens and they did promise that Bakistani soil will not be used to create and sustain terror activities against India**. Call it love-letter or whatever, the fact remains that GOI carried out Uri and Balakot.

Above statement should be taken for the context of India wishing best to the people of Pakistan.

Fact is we went in undetected and bomb'ed the hell out of Balakot, Muzzafarabad and Chakote.

Fact is that their strike back failed utterly.

Fact is that F-16 was downed by Mig-21 and Mig-21 crash landed. I doubt the theory that it even had a "debris ingestion". I am more of the opinion that Mig-21 had a 'smoke inhalation' causing it to cough up. And Bakistanis sent back our hero.

We came on tops. End of round one.

At this point, there is no reason we should give them to climb the escalatory ladder. Let them seethe and stew in their own juices. In the meantime we have to get our elections underway and prove to world again (and again) that we are the largest democracy on Earth. We are the most diverse democracy on Earth. We are the largest and most diverse democracy human kind has ever seen so far.

Bakis will show their tactical brilliance again, till that time keep the conflict localized and when they show their tactical brilliance again, slap them hard. Repetitive stress injury is more permanent and hurtful than just one straight blow.

PS:

*This forum thread was posting ISI sponsored NatSecJef as gospel truth! And several Baki handles were activated when the balloon went up gaslighting Indian statements

**I know several posters will go :rotfl: on the above statement. I have been associated with this forum since Kargil and I know that a dog's tail can be straightened but not Bakistan's jihadi mindset.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby UlanBatori » 25 Mar 2019 01:45

Right now if we were to apply the ancient 4SPDA several postors would be given nishaan e pakistan. Not naming any names, but I have been watching "Men In Black" and we are sure.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby nachiket » 25 Mar 2019 04:01

yensoy wrote:Exactly, friends. An F-16 would have zero hope of making it across to Srinagar without being intercepted by CAP or hit by SAM on the way in, and if not, most certainly on the way out.

Which is why I think the following is hogwash:
Tom Cooper wrote:Then the PAF found an opportune moment: Su-30MKIs were heading in opposite direction (one can't orbit in direction of the opponent all the time), and it appeared to the Pakistanis that nobody is airborne over Srinagar. So, they sent 4 F-16s 'in'.


As I said earlier, their goal would have been to pee in our yard, not to enter our drawing room.

The AMRAAMs being fired from beyond their target ranges might have been a panic reaction to being locked by our radar, and not a deliberate action to hit our air assets. Does that make sense?

I think you misunderstood. The pakis weren't heading to Srinagar, they just wanted to know if there were any IAF fighters over Srinagar which could intercept them while they are on the way to their target.

Their target could never be Srinagar unless there is a full fledged war already in progress. One of their aircraft actually reaching/bombing Srinagar would be a worse outcome for them than it getting downed by a SAM because then all gloves are off and "aar-paar ki ladai" would immediately start which they are in no position to fight.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby saip » 25 Mar 2019 04:31

But who exactly will they be targetting in Sri Nagar? They can not target any Government offices. They have to target only Indian Army installations and for that they do not have to reach Sri Nagar. Why? Pakistan always says that people living in Kashmir are 'their people' so they do not target them while they accuse India of targetting only civilians on Pakistani side. You see Allah has given Pakistan magic bullets which only hit Indian Army personnel while avoiding civilians, he also cursed Indian bullets so that they only hit civilians on Pakistani side and never their Army personnel.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby dnivas » 25 Mar 2019 04:33

UlanBatori wrote:Right now if we were to apply the ancient 4SPDA several postors would be given nishaan e pakistan. Not naming any names, but I have been watching "Men In Black" and we are sure.


Hah, I remember the good old days of 4 step paki det alg. some of the whines by the ones detected were hilarious. [before they were banned].

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby SidSoma » 25 Mar 2019 05:32

disha wrote:Best outcome would be we continuously slap Bakistan via pre-emptive anti-terror strikes and they smilingly say thank you onleee. Our fight is never with people of Bakistan. Our fight is with the terrorists in the havens they have created. And we have been urging them to stop creating terrorist havens and they did promise that Bakistani soil will not be used to create and sustain terror activities against India**. Call it love-letter or whatever, the fact remains that GOI carried out Uri and Balakot.


Who created the system to generate these terrorists. Who elected the idiots who put these systems in place. Who sends the children to train up in Jihad. Exactly how many protests are held every year against Jihadis.

As said in V for Vendetta. "If you are looking for who is guilty you need to look no further than the mirror." , and that is paki ppl. I am not against the love letter or what ever, but I am tired of hearing that Paki ppl are innocent. I find that hard to digest.


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