MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 03 Mar 2019 07:25

Austin wrote:The current shoot down by Bison of F-16 by WVR missile once again proves the point we need MAWS on all the aircraft.
I could be wrong but neither the Mirage Upgrade or Mig-29 upgrade carries MAWS , BArring Tejas Mk2 I dont see MAWS on any type today.

Not sure why the IAF cant take this as priority and incorporate MAWS fleet wide on all fighters , transport fleet and helicopters. MANPADS and IR WVR missile are greater threat than any SAM or BVR missile.


MAWs is slated for the Su-30 MKI fleet en masse, using a pylon based deployment below the wings and then near the canards as I recall (6x units in all) of a jt Indo-Israeli design. Took a lot of work to figure out a deployment that did not adversely mess up the Su-30s avionics.

MiG-29 and Mirage upgrades don't have MAWS - which can do an automatic trigger of chaff & flares, but they have state of the art EW SP fits in the RF domain. Soon so will Jaguar (D-Jag suite) & Su-30 MKI. Mirage 2000, I wouldnt be surprised, if it has the most comprehensive suite of all based on certain historical reasons.

Once the Su-30 fit happens, we might see podded MAWS versions for Mirage, MiG etc as well.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Philip » 03 Mar 2019 07:29

With due respect to Tejas, it hasn't the speed of the 21.That's its current problem, underpowered.It should have (Mk-2) a TVC engine either the one on the MIG-35 or the EJ200- also with a TVC variant, which I've been advocating for long.

From the reports available so far, it is most likely that the 24 strong PAF air armada was bounced quite early in their mission and could not ingress into our air space substantially, forcing them to abort the mission.The Paki formation was led by their best bet, their F-16s, who would in their estimation sweep aside our Bisons our first line of defence.That having been achieved, it would be easier for their lesser birds like the Mirages and JFs carrying major ordnance to follow on and attack their designated targets with another echelon of F-16s providing top cover.

The entire plan fell apart most likely because our AEW systems ( Phalcon/ Netra) picked them up while forming in Paki airspace and alerted the Bison interceptors who responded very quickly.Once the F-16s were engaged and faced the stick, they bolted, one was pasted and the remaining aircraft also panicked seeing the extra MKI threat did not cross the LOC, or if they did cross it it was insignificant. I don't think that "hot pursuit" of the PAF orders have as yet been given to the IAF , as all along the govt. has explicitly made a distinction between attacking terrorist targets in Pak and not anything else.

This would explain why we did not shoot down more aircraft using our BVR AAMs as the PAF birds would've been in their own airspace.Had a wider war been in existence, things would've been different.I however don't think that we will be so restrained the next time round ,
and we will see some BVR action.This round also emphasises the huge importance of WVR combat once
the BVR envelope becomes WVR.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 03 Mar 2019 07:34

The reason the EL/L-8222 works so well with the Bison, is simply, its size. The EL/L-8222 was designed for F-15 class aircraft by the Israelis and they use it on their F-15s. Now, we went and put it on our MiG-21s. You can imagine how well it would work then!
The MiG-27 UPG will be retired in a few years time. I hope the IAF finds a way to keep them around. Their EL/L-8222 + Tarang RWR integration works well & on top of it, their avionics integration via DRDO/HAL is also top-class. Which is why the LCA MK1 can also be brought to the same level. It too has Tarang & there are enough EL/L-8222 pods in the AF inventory to try a quick integration.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby sudeepj » 03 Mar 2019 07:41

Karan M wrote:The reason the EL/L-8222 works so well with the Bison, is simply, its size. The EL/L-8222 was designed for F-15 class aircraft by the Israelis and they use it on their F-15s. Now, we went and put it on our MiG-21s. You can imagine how well it would work then!
The MiG-27 UPG will be retired in a few years time. I hope the IAF finds a way to keep them around. Their EL/L-8222 + Tarang RWR integration works well & on top of it, their avionics integration via DRDO/HAL is also top-class. Which is why the LCA MK1 can also be brought to the same level. It too has Tarang & there are enough EL/L-8222 pods in the AF inventory to try a quick integration.


Karan ji, I need to show you something. How to do it.. apparently, I am not authorized to send private messages.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 03 Mar 2019 07:53

Philip wrote:With due respect to Tejas, it hasn't the speed of the 21.That's its current problem, underpowered.It should have (Mk-2) a TVC engine either the one on the MIG-35 or the EJ200- also with a TVC variant, which I've been advocating for long.


Philip, this is quite frankly rubbish. You have no idea of whether the Tejas is underpowered or not, whereas IAF pilots in service quite clearly note it can hold its own in the A2A domain quite well.

You have a tendency to cook up theories based on your well-known bias vs indigenous gear, and its no longer tolerable.

Lets hear from the man who headed the Bison program as the Indian TP.

Air Commodore Harish Nayani, MiG-21 Bison pilot, flew MiG-29s as well, deputed to LCA Test Flying wrote:..on the Tejas when it had just cracked 20 Alpha,

"There is absolutely no doubt that the Mk1, even if limited to 20 Alpha, would be many magnitudes better than the venerable Bison on all fronts. Notably, handling, safety, pilot comfort and performance in the subsonic & transonic regimes


The dogfight between the Bison & the F-16 was at subsonic speeds.

Here is what he noted in another video about the LCA vs MiG-21. Might want to see what he says about the scientists at ADA and HAL plus other DRDO labs whom you so frequently express contempt for. Direct words from the man who worked with these scientific personnel, to develop the LCA.
https://youtu.be/lKxqQMZ1eXs?t=306

Any more crackpot theories after this in order to run down the LCA or any program will attract warnings.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby UlanBatori » 03 Mar 2019 07:53

I think converting MiG21s into soosai UCAVs, the pilot and ejection seat replaced with 120kg RDX, is a wonderful idea. Mach 2.45 dive from a final climb to 100,000 feet, say into Sargodha, dispensing a rack of individually guided missiles to take out the whole base.
An aside question: Why did they call a Mach 2 elegant plane, called The Pencil in Poland, a BISON? Who came up with that name? It is 90 percent of the bad press that this terrific plane gets from ungrateful Indians (I mean the public/media).

Maybe do a 350kmph landing on the main road leading to ISI HQ in Islamagood and give them a taste of what they did at the Pentagon in 2001.
Last edited by UlanBatori on 03 Mar 2019 08:13, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby vasu raya » 03 Mar 2019 07:54

BVRs fired into TSP airspace don't have the issue of targeting civilian airliners in own airspace, they fired one or more BVRs anyways, when AMRAAMs were sold/gifted some congressmen mentioned that in case of Indo-Pak hostilities this deal only prolongs the war by a week and here you had 8 f-16s close to LOC

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 03 Mar 2019 08:15

UlanBatori wrote:I think converting MiG21s into soosai UCAVs, the pilot and ejection seat replaced with 120kg RDX, is a wonderful idea. Mach 2.45 dive from a final climb to 100,000 feet, say into Sargodha, dispensing a rack of individually guided missiles to take out the whole base.


I agree. Converting old airframes into useful 1 shot UCAVs would be a good use, as versus gate guardians in front of some base or the other.

An aside question: Why did they call a Mach 2 elegant plane, called The Pencil in Poland, a BISON? Who came up with that name? It is 90 percent of the bad press that this terrific plane gets from ungrateful Indians (I mean the public/media).
Maybe do a 350kmph landing on the main road leading to ISI HQ in Islamagood and give them a taste of what they did at the Pentagon in 2001.


The Bison in India, aka the Gaur, is a very powerful beast.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... y-cat.html

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby anishns » 03 Mar 2019 08:16

Singha wrote:perhaps the case of mistaken id was because IAF and PAF have a eeriely similar dress....


GD look for a videocon between Abhijit Iyer Mitra & PG Guru.
Abhijit claims that the F16 got disintegrated at a much higher altitude and the pilot had burn injuries. Perhaps his uniform was also burnt thus unrecognizable and therefore the PoJK mob lynched him....

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby manjgu » 03 Mar 2019 08:18

1) Gurus...in the image of tracks provided by chopseyturvy... it seems there 4 F 16 on cap over Mangla Dam? i found this interesting. Did they provide 24*7 cover to the dam? or was it only for the duration of the Pak ingress mission? are they expecting we will have a crack at the dam?? 2) I think Modi can rub it into Paki by saying 'we told Pak Govt to return Wgco else there is a bigger danda on the way'. I think all talk of Nobel Prize for Immy will vanish and PA and govt will find it hard to hide their faces.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 03 Mar 2019 08:19

anishns wrote:
Singha wrote:perhaps the case of mistaken id was because IAF and PAF have a eeriely similar dress....


GD look for a videocon between Abhijit Iyer Mitra & PG Guru.
Abhijit claims that the F16 got disintegrated at a much higher altitude and the pilot had burn injuries. Perhaps his uniform was also burnt thus unrecognizable and therefore the PoJK mob lynched him....


What are Abhijit Iyer Mitra's sources?

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby manjgu » 03 Mar 2019 08:21

also i think the F 16 were sure they will encounter Migs as they knew the positions of other IAF planes and didnt want to tangle with SU or M2K. So they knew the northern ingress will be met by Migs from Srinagar.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 03 Mar 2019 08:25

manjgu wrote:1) Gurus...in the image of tracks provided by chopseyturvy... it seems there 4 F 16 on cap over Mangla Dam? i found this interesting. Did they provide 24*7 cover to the dam? or was it only for the duration of the Pak ingress mission? are they expecting we will have a crack at the dam?? 2) I think Modi can rub it into Paki by saying 'we told Pak Govt to return Wgco else there is a bigger danda on the way'. I think all talk of Nobel Prize for Immy will vanish and PA and govt will find it hard to hide their faces.


Mosharraf Zaidi was claiming on twitter or someplace that Imran noted to the Pak Govt that India threatened missile strikes unless Abhi was released. He was outraged. Modi is a pyschopath. He raved. I think it just proved Modi is a leader worth supporting!

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby manjgu » 03 Mar 2019 08:28

KaranM..i think modi should say something as i suggested to start a slugfest in Pakistan. Whats ur take on the dam question??

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby brvarsh » 03 Mar 2019 08:31

MiG-21 have been exemplary mainstay of IAF and it is always painful to see a winning captain go with a bad rep. With this strike MiG-21 has redeemed itself to an extent. At least this aircraft's service will end with an honorable farewall.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby anishns » 03 Mar 2019 08:34

Karan M wrote:What are Abhijit Iyer Mitra's sources?


He claims to have deduced from the various videos floating around of the engagement. The fireball was much bigger in the case of the R73 strike. TIFWIW

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby manjgu » 03 Mar 2019 08:35

to an extent !!! come on. Mig 21 has made history for all times to come. I dont think how PAF is going to live with it. Till they can score a SU30 with their Bandars , they will not sleep well.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby chetak » 03 Mar 2019 08:38

UlanBatori wrote:I think converting MiG21s into soosai UCAVs, the pilot and ejection seat replaced with 120kg RDX, is a wonderful idea. Mach 2.45 dive from a final climb to 100,000 feet, say into Sargodha, dispensing a rack of individually guided missiles to take out the whole base.
An aside question: Why did they call a Mach 2 elegant plane, called The Pencil in Poland, a BISON? Who came up with that name? It is 90 percent of the bad press that this terrific plane gets from ungrateful Indians (I mean the public/media).

Maybe do a 350kmph landing on the main road leading to ISI HQ in Islamagood and give them a taste of what they did at the Pentagon in 2001.


the russkies have already converted, many years ago, some of their older airframes into something like air launched cruise missiles.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby chetak » 03 Mar 2019 08:40

anishns wrote:
Karan M wrote:What are Abhijit Iyer Mitra's sources?


He claims to have deduced from the various videos floating around of the engagement. The fireball was much bigger in the case of the R73 strike. TIFWIW


this guy has recently come out of the closet.

However, he seems to have left most of his brains behind.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Y I Patel » 03 Mar 2019 08:47

Going by the image, this is the first aerial engagement in history where both sides fielded AWACS!

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby neeraj » 03 Mar 2019 08:50


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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby chetak » 03 Mar 2019 09:05

the smelly worms are crawling out of the rotten woodwork

Salman Khurshid Verified account @salman7khurshid

Many kudos for Wing Commander abhi Varthaman the face of India’s resistance to enemy aggression. Great poise and confidence in face of adversity. We are proud that he received his wings in 2004 and matured as fighter pilot during UPA

6:45 am - 2 Mar 2019

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby arshyam » 03 Mar 2019 09:11

chetak wrote:the smelly worms are crawling out of the rotten woodwork

Salman Khurshid Verified account @salman7khurshid

Many kudos for Wing Commander abhi Varthaman the face of India’s resistance to enemy aggression. Great poise and confidence in face of adversity. We are proud that he received his wings in 2004 and matured as fighter pilot during UPA

6:45 am - 2 Mar 2019
^^ Cringe worthy, but not unexpected coming from such worthies. We can expect more such shite in the coming months.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby arshyam » 03 Mar 2019 09:12

Philip wrote:xxxxxx.

Compare a "light" fighter to a "medium" weight fighter and piss on the light fighter. Well done sir!

..................

Quote edited by Karan M. Lets not give this gentleman more publicity.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby chetak » 03 Mar 2019 09:22

watch the video


twitter

Oh yeah, the lifecycle of a Liberal...

https://twitter.com/NaIna0806/status/1101875443639218177

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 03 Mar 2019 09:31

manjgu wrote:KaranM..i think modi should say something as i suggested to start a slugfest in Pakistan. Whats ur take on the dam question??


I am completely unsure of the antecedents of the pic in question, who made it, who released it. Some IAF rtd pilots think it makes sense.. but that could be because a pilot made it with his own guess-estimations but its still not accurate vis a vis what really happened (they "made it" accurate).

About Mangla dam, I don't think TSP would think we would strike it. If they have a CAP there, its because there is something else there or they had it there as a general basis (could be reinforced easily/could get to border quick/move to other regions fast etc etc).

Too much confusion basically. Some reports note 24 birds, others 12.

I think 12 makes more sense because if it was 24, we would have thrown more aircraft into the fight as well.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Austin » 03 Mar 2019 09:34

Karan M wrote:MAWs is slated for the Su-30 MKI fleet en masse, using a pylon based deployment below the wings and then near the canards as I recall (6x units in all) of a jt Indo-Israeli design. Took a lot of work to figure out a deployment that did not adversely mess up the Su-30s avionics.

MiG-29 and Mirage upgrades don't have MAWS - which can do an automatic trigger of chaff & flares, but they have state of the art EW SP fits in the RF domain. Soon so will Jaguar (D-Jag suite) & Su-30 MKI. Mirage 2000, I wouldnt be surprised, if it has the most comprehensive suite of all based on certain historical reasons.

Once the Su-30 fit happens, we might see podded MAWS versions for Mirage, MiG etc as well.


Karan , The need for MAWS is very acute in MANPADS and WVR environment , IAF should have initiated this post Kargil when it lost atleast 1 Mig-21 and 1-2 Mi-17 not due to any sophisticated SAM but due to MANPADS.

Su-30 wont get a MAWS before they go through their comprehensive upgrade in Super MKI and it would be tragic if Mig-29 and 2000 UPG dont have MAWS , Jags too , not to mention lesser souls like Bison. EW SP RF based is good and is absolutely needed but so it MAWS atleast and if possible DIRCM

Conflict with Pak can arise any time like it happened last week and we need MAWS across fleet wide now not just limited to Fighters , The pilot in the aircraft or chopper has no idea he is under attack from IR based MANPADS or post launch of CCM till its too late. MAWS will give him crucial seconds to understand the vector of attack and do the right manouver and dont just pull standards G's will give him fighting chance to survive.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Austin » 03 Mar 2019 09:37

Karan M wrote:
Austin wrote:Does EL 8222 have ability to jam modern AMRAAM C-5 class missile , I suppose AMRAAM will have LOJ feature built in ......is this a DRFM type jammer

Karan ?


Band coverage yes (X, Ku), techniques (classified for sure) but will employ deception, specific techniques not noise for HOJ to work...but basic issue is this, antenna are forward and aft so flank attacks by BVR missiles would still work and that's why BVR combat is all about position, position! And why internal SPJs wih 360 coverage are so prized.


Ok , We are not sure if the Bison shotdown was actually carrying the jammer suite 8222

The 2nd Wing Man managed to avoid the AMRAAM any idea of the Wingman was another Bison or MKI

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby UlanBatori » 03 Mar 2019 09:39

The fireball was much bigger in the case of the R73 strike. TIFWIW


Two problems: (based on an earlier "What Really Happened" sequence from someone posted here.
1. The MiG was reported to be at a higher altitude at start of engagement: the other was down maybe to shine the laser properly.
2. When they (2-seater) detected the the MiG they had a brown pants event, broke off the laser painting and zoomed to 26K feet. Not clear if MiG was higher or lower than 26K.
3. Then the F-16 tried diving. Not clear how low.
4. MiG stayed on tail, got right behind tail and fired the heat-seeker missile (R73 is IR, not radar or optical, hain?)
5. If the F-16 was also higher at that point, then it makes perfect sense that the big Boom caused fragments that hit the oncoming MiG.
6 MiG tried evading, but was already hit. It was neither "ground fire" (how would they decide whom to shoot at, during a dogfight? Are Paki AA gunners THAT imbecile - or genius? ) nor was it a PAF missile. NOR, as someone tried to sneak in a low blow, a flameout because the WCDr tried an exotic maneuever (he is too good for that).
7. The recovered AIM merely crashed, so it didn't really go anywhere. It was a wild shot.

Simple misfortune that the WCDR flew into the expanding explosion. Too good a missile hit!
The idea that the Pakis were beaten to death because their uniforms could **NOT** be recognized, is not sustainable. They could speak Urdu, hain? I think they were beaten to death, but PRECISELY BECAUSE THEY WERE IDENTIFIED AS PAF.

Why do you think POJK villagers (if indeed they were that) love Pakjabi hotshot jocks? Find one alone and relatively defenceless, lynch!
The Indian, once identified, was merely restrained until the Polis came. Nothing serious. CLEARLY he was treated with far more respect than the Pakis were treated.
Last edited by UlanBatori on 03 Mar 2019 09:45, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Austin » 03 Mar 2019 09:41

Zynda wrote:I think BEL manufactured MAWS for Mi-17-V5 contract was signed around 2013 & integration should be WIP. Here is the excerpt from DRDO book the same.
EW Self-Protection suite, developed and integrated on Mi-17 helicopter is an integrated Radar Warning Receiver (RWR) and Missile Approach Warning System (MAWS) with BDL-CMDS. RWR can intercept and identify airborne and ground-based acquisition, target tracking and missile guidance
radars in the 1-18 GHz frequency band. Missile approach warning system is a UV- based passive warner system for protecting aircraft against heat- seeking missiles by providing warning to the air crew. CMDS, an airborne defensive system, provides self-protection by passive ECM against radar,
radar-guided and IR seeking, air-and ground-launched missiles and radar-guided anti-aircraft missiles.

Protection is achieved by deceiving the missiles through the dispersal of chaff and/or flare. The systems were individually flight-evaluated for verification of their respective functional parameters and also evaluated in the integrated mode. After trials, the system has been recommended for the entire fleet of
Mi-17 helicopters.

But yes, lack of MAWS for other air borne platforms is concerning.


Hope they integrate it with Chopper and Transport aircraft.

UV based MAWS are better resistance to atmospheric nuances compared to IR based but difficult to code it

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Raveen » 03 Mar 2019 09:42

Austin wrote:
Karan M wrote:
Band coverage yes (X, Ku), techniques (classified for sure) but will employ deception, specific techniques not noise for HOJ to work...but basic issue is this, antenna are forward and aft so flank attacks by BVR missiles would still work and that's why BVR combat is all about position, position! And why internal SPJs wih 360 coverage are so prized.


Ok , We are not sure if the Bison shotdown was actually carrying the jammer suite 8222

The 2nd Wing Man managed to avoid the AMRAAM any idea of the Wingman was another Bison or MKI


Mig 21

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Raveen » 03 Mar 2019 09:44

UlanBatori wrote:
The fireball was much bigger in the case of the R73 strike. TIFWIW


Two problems: (based on an earlier "What Really Happened" sequence from someone posted here.
1. The MiG was reported to be at a higher altitude at start of engagement: the other was down maybe to shine the laser properly.
2. When they (2-seater) detected the the MiG they had a brown pants event, broke off the laser painting and zoomed to 26K feet. Not clear if MiG was higher or lower than 26K.
3. Then the F-16 tried diving. Not clear how low.
4. MiG stayed on tail, got right behind tail and fired the heat-seeker missile (R73 is IR, not radar or optical, hain?)
5. If the F-16 was also higher at that point, then it makes perfect sense that the big Boom caused fragments that hit the oncoming MiG.
6 MiG tried evading, but was already hit. It was neither ground fire (how would they decide whom to shoot at, during a dogfight? Are Paki AA gunners THAT imbecile - or genius? ) nor was it a PAF missile. NOR, as someone tried to sneak in a low blow, a flameout because the WCDr tried an exotic maneuever (he is too good for that).
7. The recovered AIM merely crashed, so it didn't really go anywhere. It was a wild shot.

Simple misfortune that the WCDR flew into the expanding explosion. Too good a missile hit!
The idea that the Pakis were beaten to death because their uniforms could **NOT** be recognized, is not sustainable. They could speak Urdu, hain? I think they were beaten to death, but PRECISELY BECAUSE THEY WERE IDENTIFIED AS PAF.

Why do you think POJK villagers (if indeed they were that) love Pakjabi hotshot jocks? Find one alone and relatively defenceless, lynch!
The Indian, once identified, was merely restrained until the Polis came. Nothing serious. CLEARLY he was treated with far more respect than the Pakis were treated.


There's twitter videos of abhinandan being assaulted

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby UlanBatori » 03 Mar 2019 09:45

Yeah, but that's not a lynching. In POK that is a greeting. Like Wild West: a fist fight is a gentle introduction.
Why are there no videos of what happened to the two Pakis?
Last edited by UlanBatori on 03 Mar 2019 09:52, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 03 Mar 2019 09:49

Austin,

Multiple points.

1.IAF was well aware of the need for MAWS, most of the OTS solutions are crap for fighters. High false alarm rates and low sensitivity. Hence DRDO was tasked to work with Elbit (Elisra) for a dual colors MAWS

2. I dont know who spread this rumor about a Super 30 upgrade necessary for MAWS & why you think they will wait till this. To recap: "MAWs is slated for the Su-30 MKI fleet en masse, using a pylon based deployment below the wings and then near the canards as I recall (6x units in all) of a jt Indo-Israeli design." If you visited this AI, you might have seen this pylon based approach, it was apparently on display. The MAWS units have been available for a while now, but the Israeli partners couldnt quite live up to their promise and delivered a unit, which was larger & heavier than planned. So it could not be fitted directly on the airframe like the Su-30 MKM solution (which the IAF rejected as sub-optimal as its sensors were not up to IAF needs) & also, there would be considerable aerodynamic penalty, metal cutting would be necessary which IAF rejected. Net net, MAWS deployment on Su-30s will commence soon enough post the validation of the current approach. If that approach works, no reason why a similar one can't be done for MiG29S and Mirages (they dont have the canard blanking issue either).

3. MAWS is already being deployed in a phased manner on all the rest of the IAF/IA chopper fleet. There is a weight penalty but the pay-off is deemed worth it.

4. Again, any and every improvement (domestic) on the Su-30 is being added as is available, not waiting for the comprehensive Super 30 upgrade. In fact, I'd wager within the next couple of years engines apart, pretty much everything can be done in India for the Super-30 standard including a domestic Su-30 sized AESA radar.

5. Current improvements to the Su-30 in plan include a host of desi munitions, EW improvements & avionics upgrades, again not waiting for a Super 30 program etc. Improvements are now drop-in.

ramana
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby ramana » 03 Mar 2019 09:50

UB, HAL Lucknow used to make K13 AAM. Once more capable missiles came it fell by wayside. Rajiv Gandhi era saw Magic, and later the R 73 came.
Now IN has Python. It had integrarion issues with Tejas.
Also in recent Vayu Shakti 2019 the R 73 fired by Tejas was called near miss on the small target. Real life target would be bigger it was said. And sure enough it worked.

In Machine Dynamics and Vibration lab in IITM, in old days they used to have missile structures being shook up to determine response.
Could be the Milan ATGM.

I am wondering what Col John Boyd and Pierre Sprey are thinking about the F16 shot down by the Mig 21?
They were the Fighter Mafia emerging from Vietnam war who drove Figgter design in the 1970s.
F16 was designed to trump the Mig 21. The unstable design was to give it greater turning capability.
Both pilots in the fight were experienced and equal rank of Wing Commander.
I am sure USAF fighter commanders are busy doing after action reports.

Same with the AMRAAM. Who did it fail?
Did Indian ECM defeat it?
It's a double blow to US made aircraft and weaponry.
Also what were the LGBs? Were these also US made Paveway II?

Karan M
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 03 Mar 2019 10:05

MAWS is nothing compared to the other gaps we have in our weapons & systems profile. We are fixing them though. There were two breakthroughs recently.

1.Shukla's misleading headline apart (https://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2018/12 ... tejas.html),
The IAF, delighted with the outcome of Project D-29, is about to accord it final acceptance. Bharat Electronics Ltd (BEL) will manufacture the indigenous EW systems for upgrading the MiG-29 fleet.
This is a big deal because this is the baseline design/capability for 4 programs (D-29, D-JAG, SPJ on Su-30, RWJ for LCA variants).

2. Tarang is fixed on LCA Mk1, MiG27 UPG. The RWR fundamentally works. Given a variant is on SU-30, this is positive.

ramana
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby ramana » 03 Mar 2019 10:22

Guys we are on 5 th page.
Do we have an actual account of what happened?

I am see the BRF penchant of being all over the place.
Tell me what hss MAWS got to do with this shoot down?

Please focus and don't snipe on each other.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Kakarat » 03 Mar 2019 10:25

why do you think the POK population killed the pak pilot thinking him to be Indian? They could have known that he is a pak pilot and killed him and did not kill the Indian pilot because he is Indian

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 03 Mar 2019 10:31

ramana wrote:Tell me what hss MAWS got to do with this shoot down?


MAWS being a Missile Approach Warning System - supposition of some members is that a MAWS on the Bison would have alerted Abhinandan enough to avoid/escape the missile shot.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 03 Mar 2019 10:33

Sudeepj vivgir at the rate of yahoo dot com


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