MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 28 Mar 2019 03:08

suryag wrote:Following article is going to UBCN and is free to be copied post permission from KaranM (author). KaranM Sir, tried to string together a story with what you wrote and edited and added fillers.

Good job Surya!

Karan Saar, Spectacular!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 28 Mar 2019 04:05

KaranM, Your rebuttal to Coupta got 1100 impressions in 3 hours. Can be more if people here RT.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 28 Mar 2019 04:20

Wow.

Thanks sir. Hopefully, enough guys see it to understand not to take anything our DDM puts out at face value.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 28 Mar 2019 04:41

I RT'ed it twice. Ramana saar's tweet and another person who had linked it. But I have very few followers having been completely inactive on twitter except for reading what other's are saying. We have a social media thread around somewhere. I'll try to find it and post it there to bring it to people's attention.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 28 Mar 2019 04:44

It is a moment to let Stinker Dupatta feel the heat on his musharraf.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 28 Mar 2019 05:58

ramana wrote:KaranM, Your rebuttal to Coupta got 1100 impressions in 3 hours. Can be more if people here RT.

I just re-tweeted as well.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 28 Mar 2019 06:06

Manu Pubby is at it again!!!

Swedish Awacs in focus again after PAF used it against India
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 590492.cms

The active participation of these aircraft in the air skirmish gave Pakistan an extensive view of the battlefield and Indian air deployment that enabled it to direct fighters to the target zone. While India operates the IL76 `Phalcon’ AWACS as well as the Embraer `Netra’ early warning aircraft, they are outnumbered by the Pakistani air force.

Mihir · Post by **Mihir** » 28 Mar 2019 08:35

Karan M, that was bloody brilliant! Tweeted!

vimal · Post by **vimal** » 28 Mar 2019 09:11

This tweet had me rolling "Was Shekhar Gupta born an imbecile or did he have an accident?"

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 28 Mar 2019 10:15

6 Mig 29's just flew ( i mean 1 hour back) over my residence...real loooow... fantastic... the engine sound was awsuuummm

chetonzz · Post by **chetonzz** » 28 Mar 2019 10:17

karan sir, if bloody Coupta read your piece...he could not even understand half of the article except he gets some help from PAF tech guys over whatsapp group!

pralay · Post by **pralay** » 28 Mar 2019 10:46

IMP IMP another video from Mirpur in this video
in opening frame it shows the smoke-trail of F16 shot down(flying direction from bottom of screen towards top ),
at 1:16.556 seconds you can see the Mig21 going down.
Also we can clearly hear an explosion and people saying "dusra dhamaka hua" and we can see mig21 going down.
The directions are now quiet clear and there are already videos of incident from 4 directions.

mmasand · Post by **mmasand** » 28 Mar 2019 11:34

pralay wrote:IMP IMP another video from Mirpur in this video
in opening frame it shows the smoke-trail of F16 debris shot down,
at 0:13.5secs to 0:14.333secs(when seen in very slow motion) you can see some debris falling down as black dots.(I am making a slow motion video of this part)
at 1:16.556 seconds you can see the Mig21 going down.
Also we can clearly hear an explosion and people saying "dusra dhamaka hua" and we can see mig21 going down.
The directions are now quiet clear and there are already videos of incident from 4 directions.

Consistent with the IAF statement that IA units 'saw' the F-16 go down. There must have been several eye-witnesses on the Indian side, and possibly videos too.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 Mar 2019 12:20

two planes were hit and going down for sure in that video. for a brief time the contrail of abhi going past the point of impact of the f16 can be seen , by that time f16 had fallen quite a bit.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 28 Mar 2019 12:37

KaranM , please put it out to Swarajyamag

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 Mar 2019 12:51

looks from the curving brief contrail, that abhi was in process of turning around to india when hit by the amraam and unfortunately winds kept him in pak after ejection.

it seems despite 3 weeks approved sick leave, he has gone back to his squadron in srinagar to help in any way he can. cant keep the man down.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 Mar 2019 12:55

the black debris imo is not f16...the f16 is really far away, the black debris is probably a bird much closer to the camera which is at max zoom so nearby objects will be blurred.

Sridhar K · Post by **Sridhar K** » 28 Mar 2019 12:58

Team bhp thread on Indian aircraft has BR members/lurkers calling out Couptas agenda and asking people to visit BRF. I added the link to Karan s post shared in Twitter by Ramana Garu

pralay · Post by **pralay** » 28 Mar 2019 13:08

Singha wrote:the black debris imo is not f16...the f16 is really far away, the black debris is probably a bird much closer to the camera which is at max

Good observation Singh ji. you are right.
but the video still confirms two explosions, two planes went down, even the onlookers in background also confirm hearing two explosions and out of the two, the Mig21 explosion is clearly heard. in the video.
All vindicating IAF stand.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 28 Mar 2019 14:04

quite a long gap between the f16 being hit and the 2nd explosion

Sridhar K · Post by **Sridhar K** » 28 Mar 2019 14:28

Neela wrote:KaranM , please put it out to Swarajyamag

Amar from Swarajya is interested. Is there a way he can contact Karan?

Added later
Karan Saar
Can you pls contact amar@swarajyamag.com

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 28 Mar 2019 15:32

re debris - one of the abdulcam pics showed a two part tubular item on the ground and we debated colour of vegetation. Some suggested it was an H4. It is also possible that it is an F16 jammer pod (looks similar) or some other designation pod. it would be large enough to be seen as falling debris from this distance

Sridhar K · Post by **Sridhar K** » 28 Mar 2019 17:08

Karan M wrote:Wow. Thanks sir. Hopefully, enough guys see it to understand not to take anything our DDM puts out at face value.

Saar, Amar from Swarajya is interested. Is there a way he can contact you or you can reach him at amar@swarajyamag.com

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 28 Mar 2019 17:43

KaranM

10135 impressions in 16 hours.

Congrats.

There is thirst for info.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 28 Mar 2019 18:14

Excellent stat info Ramana-ji,

Karan, contact Swarajya Mag ASAP. Get it out and formalize it. Hit a Sixer!!!

pralay · Post by **pralay** » 28 Mar 2019 18:52

Lalmohan wrote:quite a long gap between the f16 being hit and the 2nd explosion

Yes, at least 50 seconds gap in between, considering F16 was hit at least 8-10 seconds before the video based on the length of smoke trail. and length of clear sky above top end of the smoke trail in the opening frame of the video.
I am sure some abdul must be having video of the earlier 10-20 seconds as well.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 28 Mar 2019 18:58

Karan M wrote:https://www.firstpost.com/world/balakot ... 36391.html

The PAF package is likely to have comprised eight F-16s (four carrying laser-guided bombs [LGBs] and the rest in the air defence sweep role). This formed the northern and more potent element of the force and was most probably headed for military targets in the Naushera sector.

This is not factually correct. No LGB's were used by PAF. LGB's require Line of Sight laser designation and the Pakistanis never came that close, nor did they want to come close to line of sight. Indian installations are heavily guarded by Igla and when fighters slow down to lase targets and drop bombs, they're vulnerable to Igla. No fighter can lase targets at high speeds.

The missile used was the H-4 series missile based on Denel Raptor-2. The Denel Raptor family has been used to develop the H2, H4 and Ra'ad missiles.

It works only with Mirage 3/5 that also flew with SAAF as the Atlas Cheetah. The manufacturer's datasheet too does not mention JF-17 or F-16 or for that matter any US or Chinese aircraft.

http://www.deneldynamics.co.za/products ... /raptor-ii

Raptor has been integrated on the Mirage III/V, Mirage F1, Cheetah and SU-24. The system can also be integrated with other suitable aircraft, e.g.MiG-29, SU-27/30, Mirage 2000, and Tornado.

The Su-24 integration is for Algeria, that is another large user for South African arms, including a Mi-35 upgrade.

The MiG-29, SU-27/30, Mirage 2000 was proposed for India but we went ahead with more accurate Israeli Crystal Maze post which Denel sold to Pakistan.

Variety of seekers:

GNSS/INS
LLTV
IIR (with ATR)

The Raptor II system flies autonomously to the target and is then designated on the intended point of impact by the operator.

The Communications Pod is mounted on the launch aircraft or on a second aircraft, which allows for the control of the weapon over a separation distance of up to 200 km. A set of cockpit display symbology indicates weapon and mission status.

The weapon allows for two methods of operation, depending on the Seeker used:

The weapon will fly autonomously to the target. The operator designates the precise point of impact by means of an advanced auto-tracker.
Fire-and-forget GNSS/INS aided navigation.

From my understanding H2 range is 60 km, H4 range is 120 km & Raad range is 200-300 km.

In this case, because the aircraft with Communications Pod was forced to turn back, the missiles did not receive mid course updates and went off course from their intended targets.

Even with missiles with GPS refreshed INS, mid course updates are required to compensate for loss of GPS signals due to terrain, cloud cover, precipitation, atmospheric conditions etc.

Because of Raptor fragments found, India is complaining to South Africa.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 28 Mar 2019 19:11

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 312209.cms

This is the most accurate reconstruction of events of that day.

tandav · Post by **tandav** » 28 Mar 2019 20:19

AdityaM wrote:This looks like the source video from which the flaming plane pic must have been sourced which was being used by Pakis to show that its a Su30

Doesn’t look like it’s related to mig21-F16 encounter

https://twitter.com/sayareakd/status/11 ... 98497?s=21

This is not a SU24 if you pause this video exactly at 15s the planform is clearly an F16 planform with characteristic wing to nose body strake that defines an F16. Other posters mention this is the Turkish Su24 shoot down but the SU24 is twin engine swingwing plane which does not match above profile

anishns · Post by **anishns** » 28 Mar 2019 20:32

Even supposedly knowledge able folks have RT'ed Coupta's article verbatim. Surely, people like Vishnu Som, Sushant Sareen should know better than fall for the garbage piece authored by Coupta.

I guess they are birds of the same feather...

ramana wrote:Here you go:

https://twitter.com/ramana_brf/status/1 ... 00736?s=19

Rebuttal of Shekhar Gupta's "What the IAF-PAF dogfight reveals" article in Print.
https://t.co/aKMknuNl8p
Please RT

@rhinohistorian

gaurav.p · Post by **gaurav.p** » 28 Mar 2019 20:34

tandav wrote: This is not a SU24 if you pause this video exactly at 15s the planform is clearly an F16 planform with characteristic wing to nose body strake that defines an F16. Other posters mention this is the Turkish Su24 shoot down but the SU24 is twin engine swingwing plane which does not match above profile

has been posted previously in the forum, posting again

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 28 Mar 2019 20:40

it is definitely an F16, question is which one?
options
1. PAF in Nowshera - seems unlikely due to terrain/vegetation
2. Jordanian AF in Syria
3. Israeli over Lebanon/N Israel - paint job doesnt match, nor time of day (from recent loss that i am aware of)
4. Turkish - don't know
5. NATO - Syria or Iraq (older) - but Singha heard urdu/pashto
6. Other PAF

the aircraft is burning at the wing root and not the tail - but that is possible also depending on where the R73 went off

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 28 Mar 2019 20:48

tsarkar wrote:https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 312209.cms

This is the most accurate reconstruction of events of that day.

The last line in the article is wrong. IAF does allows Sikh pilots to have beard.

I have seen Sikh pilots with beard in IAF. Dilbag Singh, Arjun Singh and PVC Nirmaljeet Singh Sekhon.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 28 Mar 2019 20:52

Thanks guys, got very busy at work. Sridhar K will definitely reach out to Amar once some important stuff gets done. Thank you again for your kind support (you and R sir both).

Tsarkar thanks for the additional info. Pls add any other useful bits you find as well.

I do think it wasn't just Raptors but a mix of LGBs and Raptors both, but I guess we'll see when more info. emerges.

In my initial posts on the topic, I had surmised the PAF threw their entire armory at the IAF. And for all of the posturing, a handful of Su-30s and Mirages (2 of each, more or less) held off a huge group of F-16s, Mirages, JF-17s. And this is apparently "outranged and outgunned". Foolish to the max. If anything, this backs up the IAF assertion that in air warfare, they need to retain the tech. & training edge as it pays substantial dividends, as it just did.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 28 Mar 2019 21:17

Before I log off - here's a quick thought. You have 24 aircraft in the air, apparently most being JF-17s and F-16s, with most of them (supposedly) having BVR capability. Lets even load the dice on strike. 11 Raptors launched per ANI, assuming 1 didn't launch, and 2x per Mirage, that's 6x Mirages. Now, that leaves 18 aircraft unaccounted for, trying to get firing solutions onto our 2x Su-30s and 2x Mirages. Going by AVM's original note about 2x Su-30s being "swing role" (likely tankers) and not being in the fight. We are talking of anywhere between 4 vs 1 odds here. 18 fighters vs the initial 4 Su30/Mirage 2000 fleet and then later 6x MiG-21s join the fray. Point being these are heavy odds, and exactly the kind of odds the F-16s should have scored kills on, yet what information do we have? They were not able to sustain locks on our fighters. As Aroor noted & which is also backed up by AVM Subramaniam's account:

As the stand-off strikes took place, an air-to-air battle commenced with the two Indian Su-30s reporting (in their debrief) repeated radar locks from what they say were Pakistani F-16s beyond visual range, and manoeuvering in the air to turn ‘cold’ on the weapon locks. IAF sources indicated to Livefist that the said F-16s were looking specifically to shoot down a Su-30 — something that would have been a major loss for the IAF. The Su-30s (and later, three of the MiG-21s) are said to have flown patterns to remain ‘kinematically safe’ against the repeated AMRAAM locks even as the distance between the Indian and Pakistani jets loosely closed over the Line of Control. The hot-cold radar lock sequence continued for several minutes, with the said PAF F-16s repeatedly attempting to sustain locks on the Su-30 MKIs long enough for meaningful shots. Sources say the three AMRAAMs were launched in DMAX-1, the dynamic attack zone where the missile is unleashed at the limits of its range. On all three occasions, the Su-30s used countermeasures to dodge the incoming weapons.

The answer is fairly clear for anyone with an iota of understanding of the topic. The Su-30s & Mirages despite being heavily outnumbered fought off a multi-axis BVR attack, where they were outnumbered. Forget the term lock for a second. It meant the Su-30s were hearing the tone of a F-16 radar scanning them.

This is the toughest scenario. Due to the opponent having more numbers, they can vary formations, altitudes, mixes, try to flank the targets. You are in effect getting "painted" from multiple directions.

Yet despite all this... they remained in the fight & frustrated the F-16/JF-17 attempt to get a shoot down. Speaks volumes about all the training our pilots have (note all 3 sets did this, Sukhoi, Mirage & MiG) and the quality of their tactics, apart from the airframes and countermeasures.

The Su-30s and Mirage 2000s basically "held the line", till the MiG-21 Bison force got into the fray. Far from being outranged or outgunned, the IAF would be very happy their SOP & equipment performed as they thought it should.

On the PAF side - hold a thought. If ANI is correct, 11 Raptors were launched. None hit. Their AMRAAM heavy tactics didn't work either. In short, they would have received a harsh wake up call, even if Abhinandan had not pulled that rabbit out of the hat, by downing a F-16.

Gupta's scare mongering aside, we have 200 odd Su-30s in our fleet. On 27th Feb., a mere 2 of them, a mere 2 upgraded Mirages held off a PAF formation 6 times larger than them, packed with the elite of their fleet. I can bet it would have CCS Sargodha & other guys as well. If anything this should reiterate our confidence in the kind of training & equipment the air warriors have. Yes there are always grounds to improve, especially equipment, and I am sure that is a renewed focus even as we speak. But there is no grounds for the kind of flawed defeatism, that was there in the Print article.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 28 Mar 2019 21:31

KaranM, Before finalizing the article for press do also look at Nitin Gokhale's article about the lady ground controller. There is valuable data about what she saw and vectored to the air battle.
Three PAF planes crossed the LOC. Rest (24-3 = 21 planes) stayed on the their side.
I think 4 planes (Su-30MKI + M2K) were already in the air on our side of LOC. And she sent 2 Mig-21 Bison on ORP to take off.
So total six planes to combat 3 intruders.

I tend to agree with tsarkar's explanation of why the Fizzleya dudded the H-4 SOWs.
Made them into pigs.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 28 Mar 2019 21:37

Also I think Guptaji was fed some ox manure by retired jocks past their prime as to how they would have fought and he printed without checking.
The last para about the SDR being held up by a middle level MoD babu is typical fact free grouse and not from himself.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 28 Mar 2019 21:39

Looks like MEA protested to Sweden, South Africa and US that their weapons were used for aggression on India.
I know it looks like futile bleating

but in diplomatic terms it s big deal.
next these countries could be banned from arms orders from India.
No longer tolerate selling weapons to both countries.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 28 Mar 2019 21:47

SBajwa wrote:
tsarkar wrote:https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 312209.cms

This is the most accurate reconstruction of events of that day.
The last line in the article is wrong. IAF does allows Sikh pilots to have beard.

I have seen Sikh pilots with beard in IAF. Dilbag Singh, Arjun Singh and PVC Nirmaljeet Singh Sekhon.

And Air Chief Marshal Birender Singh Dhanoa

habal · Post by **habal** » 28 Mar 2019 22:04

PAF said their entire air farce was airborne on feb 27. It is their statement, again missed by coupta. Do we know how many PAF fleet was really airborne at that time apart from the 24, it will reveal the flight fitness level of their inventory.