MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
RajD
BRFite
Posts: 122
Joined: 29 Mar 2011 16:01

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby RajD » 21 Aug 2019 22:18

Guys, I had requested AvM(Retd.) Sunil Nanodkar sir to share his opinion and comments on the article written by @joe_sameer on the air battle which took place on 27th Feb. 2019. I'm reproducing his comments below in his own words in Toto.

'Sameer has done a great analysis on the facts that are available. In the fog of conflicts some things will remain in the grey. The fact is that we have shot down a F-16 and we have got Abhinandan to be in the cockpit again. We should focus on the lessons learnt through this about whether we could have done better in inflicting more damage to PAF on the 27th. Also, a serious thinking about the unaffordable fratricide. More potent the weapons more rigorous the training and operational efficiency. I am sure the IAF must be brainstorming about it'.

arvin
BRFite
Posts: 240
Joined: 17 Aug 2016 21:26

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby arvin » 21 Aug 2019 22:47

Prasad wrote:So if the Mig-21 had had a RWR, he would have had the chance to evade the incoming amraam and come back unscathed.


His bison should be having one on the tip of tail.
But the amraam must have been guided either by F16 or erieye. And it must locked on after coming close.
Maybe something like britecloud could have saved his plane.Hope DRDO is working on things like that.

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 6942
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby nachiket » 22 Aug 2019 03:27

Prasad wrote:So if the Mig-21 had had a RWR, he would have had the chance to evade the incoming amraam and come back unscathed.

The Mig-21 does have an RWR. You can even see the antenna on the tail fin. But the RWR only warns you when you are painted by a hostile Radar and provides info on classifying the threat perhaps. That by itself cannot help you evade an incoming AMRAAM.

To evade the AMRAAM the pilot would have to perform evasive maneuvers, dump chaff and use the internal SPJ or external jamming pod like the ELTA ELL-8222 if available (which WingCo Abhinandan did not have AFAIK). But as we know he was busy in shooting down another F-16 and had little time for evasive maneuvers. Even if he did, it would be difficult to evade at those ranges. It is likely that the RWR was blaring in the cockpit the entire time but the WingCo chose to stay engaged and shoot down the bogey he was chasing, fully cognizant of the risk to his own life.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18255
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 22 Aug 2019 05:00

Prasad wrote:So if the Mig-21 had had a RWR, he would have had the chance to evade the incoming amraam and come back unscathed.


This is what you are not getting. Abhi had RWR indication. He knew there were Vipers. He chose to go ahead nonetheless. This is what has rattled the Pakis. The presence of a BARCAP alone was meant to do the job, yet we breached right in, and still shot a target down.

Shaping the battlefield can only create possibilities, and that is what Varthaman seized with his aggression. It is assessed that during his pursuit, his Radar Warning Receiver (RWR) would have been buzzing with warnings. He could have broken off from his attack and headed home and no one would have questioned his decision. By choosing to stay in pursuit, he did what many would not have done: bring down an F-16. It is a once in a lifetime experience of claiming a kill in an actual aerial duel in the current times.

https://www.firstpost.com/india/balakot ... 36391.html

SRai, that is the correct interpretation IMHO as even the Controller noted he took out the most threatening aircraft.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18255
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 22 Aug 2019 05:08

Exactly. Which is why I have been repeating throughout, the man had guts of steel. He knew he was literally very close to the NEZ for an AMRAAM shot, his RWR would have been pinging with the search tones of the APG68 v(9). Yet, bash on regardless. There is a hilarious point to this - the TSP guys thought it was their right to come into Indian territory/fire AMRAAMs at us from afar. What they never ever expected was such a "brazen" run at their BARCAP (!!), so much for the barrier, and a Viper downed. While we are taking cogniszance of our errors on that day (too few numbers deployed initially due to HAS issues, comms jamming for the MiGs, ROE challenges etc, fratricide) , fact is the PAF BARCAP suffered a massive coordination issue and flopped. Imagine it wasnt two MiG21s w/4 AAMs each but a Sukhoi or Mirage sortie kept on reserve for this kind of eventuality.

nachiket wrote:
Prasad wrote:So if the Mig-21 had had a RWR, he would have had the chance to evade the incoming amraam and come back unscathed.

The Mig-21 does have an RWR. You can even see the antenna on the tail fin. But the RWR only warns you when you are painted by a hostile Radar and provides info on classifying the threat perhaps. That by itself cannot help you evade an incoming AMRAAM.

To evade the AMRAAM the pilot would have to perform evasive maneuvers, dump chaff and use the internal SPJ or external jamming pod like the ELTA ELL-8222 if available (which WingCo Abhinandan did not have AFAIK). But as we know he was busy in shooting down another F-16 and had little time for evasive maneuvers. Even if he did, it would be difficult to evade at those ranges. It is likely that the RWR was blaring in the cockpit the entire time but the WingCo chose to stay engaged and shoot down the bogey he was chasing, fully cognizant of the risk to his own life.

fanne
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2989
Joined: 11 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby fanne » 22 Aug 2019 05:22

Btw tsp official statement has shifted from one f-16 being 2 seater now to 1 seater. It has the tail number as well. I bet they have tried to erase all pictures on net that tail is 2 seater, I bet a cunning indu can still find it out. Why? Because if it is 1 seater, you do not have to talk about the second dead pilot.

yensoy
BRFite
Posts: 1438
Joined: 29 May 2002 11:31
Location: USA

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby yensoy » 22 Aug 2019 07:05

PAF never came into our territory. They fired AMRAAMs from their side of the LoC. Our Migs (Abhi and wingman) were well into PoK to push them back.

Next time around, when a formation of F-16s flies close to the LoC, we can only assume that they will fire A2A or A2G weapons, and we will take them down before they encroach into our space. Pakis unwittingly changed the rules of the game.

Jay
BRFite
Posts: 146
Joined: 24 Feb 2005 18:24
Location: Gods Country
Contact:

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Jay » 22 Aug 2019 07:13

yensoy wrote:PAF never came into our territory. They fired AMRAAMs from their side of the LoC. Our Migs (Abhi and wingman) were well into PoK to push them back.

Next time around, when a formation of F-16s flies close to the LoC, we can only assume that they will fire A2A or A2G weapons, and we will take them down before they encroach into our space. Pakis unwittingly changed the rules of the game.


This is what I feel Pakis lost that day. They may pat their backs that they bagged a MIG and it's Pilot while hiding their loss, but they handed the advantage and lost the depth which was helping them in their defense until now. Now every time a Paki plane comes within 40 miles of LOC, they literally have to gamble on our response and if we play our cards right, we can reap the benefits many times over.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18255
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 22 Aug 2019 09:51

yensoy wrote:PAF never came into our territory. They fired AMRAAMs from their side of the LoC. Our Migs (Abhi and wingman) were well into PoK to push them back.


Their weapons sure came into our territory! That's the point. They assumed it was their right to dominate the escalation ladder as they saw fit and do a tit for tat vis a vis our strike on Balakote and target our Su-30s (a clear escalation) and also attack our *military targets* as versus our strike on their jihadis (or they had severe military casualties too as some reports noted). Sameer Joshi will be publishing an updated account (vis a vis his original one, which we discussed on BR!) so we should wait for that, but AM Subramaniam had a point about the F-16 package briefly crossing the LC for a strike and prevented from having a steady run at their targets. Link

All their claims about ensuring no Indian casualties is just self-serving BS, because the fragmentation effects of LGBs/REK-bombs are enough that they need to be far away from any folks, if only a "demo" was intended vis a vis intent.

Next time around, when a formation of F-16s flies close to the LoC, we can only assume that they will fire A2A or A2G weapons, and we will take them down before they encroach into our space. Pakis unwittingly changed the rules of the game.


Yes, but again this depends on a political clearance as well. With this GOI I am reasonably sure the forces have a free hand to defend themselves by taking pre-emptive action.

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11039
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 22 Aug 2019 10:08

Another loss is on 27 Feb we only targetted 1 Viper, we did not attack thier JF-17 and Mirages, if that had happened it would have been carnage for the PAF.

Again no focus why JF-17 was mere distraction that day and did not do A2A or A2G- that is the PAF biggest weakness.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18255
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 22 Aug 2019 10:17

Aditya_V wrote:Another loss is on 27 Feb we only targetted 1 Viper, we did not attack thier JF-17 and Mirages, if that had happened it would have been carnage for the PAF.

Again no focus why JF-17 was mere distraction that day and did not do A2A or A2G- that is the PAF biggest weakness.


It was clearly a political decision not to have an all-out war, because them launching weapons into our territory was = war. As was our strike into Pak proper (beyond POK).

JF-17s had issues with Mirage 2000s.

https://swarajyamag.com/defence/iafs-fo ... 7-february
“The JF-17 vs Mirage 2000 engagement took place North of J&K as the JF-17s tried to 'push' the M2000s in a 'Red on Red'. The JF-17's NRIET KLJ-7 PD radar did not do well against the M2000s. The JF-17s main job was to keep the M2000s tied up and not move south,” the former Mirage-2000 pilot notes.

“The PAF communication intercepted on the ERIEYE showed that the PAF was vary of the upgraded M2000s moving south,” he adds.


https://www.firstpost.com/india/balakot ... 36391.html

Armed with beyond-visual-range (BVR) missile MICA missiles and likely to have been the upgraded Mirage 2000s, they would have locked on first to the JF-17s, duelling with them at long distances and conversing among themselves as the battle progressed ‘going hot’ and ‘going cold’, or ‘extending’ and ‘exiting’—all of it typical fighter pilot jargon across the world that indicates different stages of BVR combat. Frustrated at being unable to clear the Mirage 5s to proceed towards their intended target, the PAF formation would have turned back—not something unheard of or unprofessional—living to fight another day is a wise strategy in tough times. One deduction from this engagement if the forces painted are right is the clear superiority of the upgraded Mirage 2000 over the JF-17!


Two independent accounts, both reiterating the same thing. The PAF was super frustrated with this leaking out - you can imagine their angst as they have an export push for the JF-17 and have sold the aircraft as being superior to the Viper to their citizens. Hence, after this: PAF CAS interview promptly to AFM bragging about how great the JF-17 was vs the IAF on Feb 27th, Kaiser Tufail sold a fake bill of goods on how both radars on the IAF Mirage 2000s conked out and they exited the battle (note how the story of what the PAF did is sought to be projected onto the IAF. They cant sell the fact the JF-17 gear was superior to the French kit to a skeptical WW audience so they spun the story as IAF planes had their radars conk out), and then a bragging interview to a gullible hushkit who reprinted their claims of JF-17 superiority, greatness verbatim.

Looks like they monitor BR and the internet insanely. Image is all. :lol:

yensoy
BRFite
Posts: 1438
Joined: 29 May 2002 11:31
Location: USA

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby yensoy » 22 Aug 2019 10:25

Let's go back to 27 Feb. We had escalated. We intruded well into enemy controlled airspace and lobbed bombs into their terror factories. That was our mission and we accomplished it. What was the top thing on our minds? To not let the situation escalate any further. We delivered a punch, we had made our point, and we wanted the Pakis to grudgingly accept the punishment and not take it to all-out war.

With that in mind, I think our posture would have been very reactive. We knew they would do something for their H&D. But we could not take any action against their military unless and until they did something stupid. Remember, our initial action was pitched as against "non-military targets". We could not afford to be painted as the aggressor here.

Which is why I believe we let loose only after they dropped their "packages". Otherwise we could have absolutely picked off their JF17s like cherries. Once the offender was identified and locked by Wingco, he had to be brought down, and time not wasted on swatting flies.

The rules of engagement have presumably changed since then, which is one reason they closed their airspace even for their own civilian aircraft. Next time around, we won't wait for them to cross the LoC or discharge their loads, or so I hope.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18255
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 22 Aug 2019 10:32

Yes, exactly. An all-out war was not what the GOI wanted. We made a point about retaliation, overcoming decades of mental programming about Paki deterrence and what not, that was enough.

Interestingly enough, who can guess what the GOI will do next time around. So many options. :mrgreen:

Our military has teeth, and is being used. But there are other options too.

Prasad
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7313
Joined: 16 Nov 2007 00:53
Location: Chennai

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Prasad » 22 Aug 2019 11:32

My fault. So despite having an rwr most likely he pursued his prey. Guts only.

We've had a long-standing agreement of not approaching the loc upto a certain distance keeping it a no-man's land. I presume that is gone now?

Rishi
Forum Moderator
Posts: 740
Joined: 29 Sep 2002 11:31
Location: Maximum City

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Rishi » 22 Aug 2019 11:54

Does anyone have timelines of

1. SoW launch from Mirages
2. Amraam launch at Sukhois from F16s?
3. Time of scramble of Mig21s (2 /4 / 7?)

We do know that time of shoot down of F16 and Bison was 1022 hrs

Kashi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3475
Joined: 06 May 2011 13:53

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Kashi » 22 Aug 2019 12:46

Karan M wrote:It was clearly a political decision not to have an all-out war, because them launching weapons into our territory was = war. As was our strike into Pak proper (beyond POK).


Did we actually have enough assets in the area to take on multiple bandits?

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11039
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 22 Aug 2019 13:35

Kashi wrote:
Karan M wrote:It was clearly a political decision not to have an all-out war, because them launching weapons into our territory was = war. As was our strike into Pak proper (beyond POK).


Did we actually have enough assets in the area to take on multiple bandits?


In half an hour 1 hour we could had enough assets and gone after Pakistani military targets which would have been bought the Bandits out for inevtiable pasting.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18255
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 22 Aug 2019 21:35

Kashi wrote:
Karan M wrote:It was clearly a political decision not to have an all-out war, because them launching weapons into our territory was = war. As was our strike into Pak proper (beyond POK).


Did we actually have enough assets in the area to take on multiple bandits?


We didn't have to retaliate the very moment or attack-in-theater only. Immediately as the attack unfolded we sent additional Su-30s and MiG-29s to the theater, but the PAF would have surged those 24 aircraft from deeper in Pakistan. If we had to retaliate, all could have been on the table. We just chose to not to escalate. All said & done, from the risk-reward perspective (ignoring the PR/Hybrid war stuff) - we actually came out ahead.

We broke the N-deterrence angle for the very first time (Air Power is >>> escalatory than a shallow SF raid) and the Pakis swallowed their bile and tried an equal-equal but couldn't quite pull it off, and didn't follow it through either.

The decision makers, would be ok with what we got, vs what we "spent". Make no mistake, this was not easy for the GOI, hence the highly restrictive civilian messaging about non military target etc. We clearly wanted to escalate and de-escalate on our terms, but we were prepared for round 2, Gen.Rawat and the IA were chomping at the bit per reports, with $1Bn of ammunition delivered to boost WWR.

The next incident, if there is one due to Pakistani idiocy and sheer bloody mindedness.. all bets are off on who will do the retaliation, and how. But that would be the 4th or 5th time I am guessing. The Uri raid, another cross border action thereafter to take out BATs, then this Balakote strike...I am reasonably sure 2-3 more events would have occurred in the meantime. But a high profile attack into India will invite retaliation now. That's the good part!

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 6942
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby nachiket » 23 Aug 2019 01:10

Karan M wrote:The next incident, if there is one due to Pakistani idiocy and sheer bloody mindedness.. all bets are off on who will do the retaliation, and how. But that would be the 4th or 5th time I am guessing. The Uri raid, another cross border action thereafter to take out BATs, then this Balakote strike...I am reasonably sure 2-3 more events would have occurred in the meantime. But a high profile attack into India will invite retaliation now. That's the good part!

This is the most important takeaway from the whole incident. More important than Feb 27 engagement which has gotten the most screentime (and twittertime..).

After Uri, the Pakis were expecting "Kadi Ninda!" as usual and instead got surprised by the surgical strikes.

After Pulwama, they were possibly expecting another Surgical strike and alerted their troops to watch out for it. Instead they got surprised by an air strike, inside KPK!

Now the next time they do something outrageous, they have no way of knowing what the response will be. There are no unofficial rules anymore. From pakis being the unpredictable ones always and us merely reacting, we have become the unpredictable ones now. And that is a hugely important and necessary change. Putting doubt and uncertainty in the mind of your adversary is always useful.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7618
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Rakesh » 23 Aug 2019 09:22

In the long run, this state of uncertainty is un-sustainable for the elite in Pakistan. Their nuclear bluff has been called. Pak Gernails are too much in love with their lifestyle, to see their loot (from their own citizenry) being lost.

Manish_Sharma
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4149
Joined: 07 Sep 2009 16:17

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Manish_Sharma » 23 Aug 2019 13:46

This tweet shows evidence of Pakistan trying to hide F-16 loss...

https://twitter.com/krishnajaga/status/ ... 6450050048 ---> The table with Roll of honours released in June mentioned F-16B. The same table in August has transformed it into an F-16A!! See both and draw your inferences.

June

Image

August

Image

pankajs
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11633
Joined: 13 Aug 2009 20:56

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby pankajs » 23 Aug 2019 14:08

Rakesh wrote:In the long run, this state of uncertainty is un-sustainable for the elite in Pakistan. Their nuclear bluff has been called. Pak Gernails are too much in love with their lifestyle, to see their loot (from their own citizenry) being lost.

More uncertainty injected by our very own ninda turtle by creating "uncertainty" on our NFU and stressing the POK being the only subject on the negotiating table.

pankajs
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11633
Joined: 13 Aug 2009 20:56

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby pankajs » 23 Aug 2019 14:12

nachiket wrote:From pakis being the unpredictable ones always and us merely reacting, we have become the unpredictable ones now. And that is a hugely important and necessary change. Putting doubt and uncertainty in the mind of your adversary is always useful.

That was the vilest of the CON crimes. They allowed a piddi to set the terms. It is usually the weaker party that want's Law & Order (Certainty) to protect against the stronger. CON allowed the bakis to reverse the equations!

UlanBatori
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12054
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby UlanBatori » 23 Aug 2019 16:49

IBTL. I see that the AAMram and AAAM-sita and AAM-ravana have re-incarnated, suddenly hitting the MiG from the side at the tail etc.
Laziness and Ignorance trump science and basic logic, as Trump will confirm. :roll:

The only curious thing to occur over the past 3 months in this, was the statement attributed to the "Abhinandan's Squadron Leader". Read it with great interest, and asked the basic question: Why now? Why she? What EXACTLY did she say or not say?
Assume that every word she said is true, but of course it is not the WHOLE truth: she is a smart military officer.

The answers confirm what really happened. Close the thread. The F-16 was shot down. The two Pak pilots were killed by friendly PORKis. Abhinandan's plane *****GLIDED******* down and hit the ground flat, left a train chopping down trees. Nose section intact except for vertical-plane crushing from low-vertical-speed ground impact. Wings hitting trees stopped the wreckage.

That is by far enough evidence to confirm the UBCN analysis, also confirmed by relevant articles on the thread. A leettil bit of aerodynamics/static stability/flight mechanics thought and a leettil bit of gray cells would close the case in the minds of any unbiased but thought-permeable person with attention span greater than that of an aging gecko.
Close the thread. If you want a new IAF-PAF thread, start that and continue the Pride&Prejudice Jane Austen Fan Forum type stuff there.
Last edited by UlanBatori on 23 Aug 2019 23:05, edited 1 time in total.

tsarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2746
Joined: 08 May 2006 13:44
Location: mumbai

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby tsarkar » 23 Aug 2019 18:05

Manish_Sharma wrote:This tweet shows evidence of Pakistan trying to hide F-16 loss...

https://twitter.com/krishnajaga/status/ ... 6450050048 ---> The table with Roll of honours released in June mentioned F-16B. The same table in August has transformed it into an F-16A!! See both and draw your inferences.

More interesting is the H-4 Mirage combination. Two Mirages carried H-4 missiles and two Mirages carried guidance pods.

It seems the Mirage cant carry the H-4 missile and guidance pod together. Both are carried on separate aircraft. Even more interesting is that one pod cannot guide two missiles. They require a separate pod for each missile. Although two pods could have been used to provide redundancy.

The pod carriers are ex Libyan aircraft and the missile carriers direct purchase aircraft from 70's & 80's.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7618
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Rakesh » 26 Aug 2019 05:17

Manish_Sharma wrote:This tweet shows evidence of Pakistan trying to hide F-16 loss...

https://twitter.com/krishnajaga/status/ ... 6450050048 ---> The table with Roll of honours released in June mentioned F-16B. The same table in August has transformed it into an F-16A!! See both and draw your inferences.

Here is 84606 during her flying days :) In 2010, she flew to Turkey for an upgrade from Block 15 to Block 20.

If the PAF itself is claiming that S/L Hassan Siddiqui was the pilot, then Wing Cdr Hyder Shahbaz Ali was the other pilot in the twin seat F-16 and he is the one who get lynched.

By the way, as per the "invincible" PAF...no F-16s participated in Operation Swift Retort! Why are they then included in the Roll of Honour? :lol:

Image

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11039
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 26 Aug 2019 10:49

Even this is a damage control exercise , the IAF Phalcons would know the difference in radar signatures between Block 20 and Block 52- and Sameer Joshi clearly said F-16D. Loosing 84606 will look much than one of 10801 to 10806.

I suspect they will try and release photos of 84606 publically that is well and sound.

I believe Shahbaz Haider Ali was a WIng Commander and WSO Hassan Siddiqui was a Squadron Leader, Shahbaz Haider Ali probably flew the Block 52- these are most likely the 2 pilots. Thats why it is probably Squadron leader while ejecting his parachute got caught in the Burning F-16 Tail shoot.

Manish_Sharma
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4149
Joined: 07 Sep 2009 16:17

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Manish_Sharma » 26 Aug 2019 11:41

Rakesh wrote:
Manish_Sharma wrote:This tweet shows evidence of Pakistan trying to hide F-16 loss...

https://twitter.com/krishnajaga/status/ ... 6450050048 ---> The table with Roll of honours released in June mentioned F-16B. The same table in August has transformed it into an F-16A!! See both and draw your inferences.

Here is 84606 during her flying days :) In 2010, she flew to Turkey for an upgrade from Block 15 to Block 20.

If the PAF itself is claiming that S/L Hassan Siddiqui was the pilot, then Wing Cdr Hyder Shahbaz Ali was the other pilot in the twin seat F-16 and he is the one who get lynched.

By the way, as per the "invincible" PAF...no F-16s participated in Operation Swift Retort! Why are they then included in the Roll of Honour? :lol:

:rotfl:

I think GOI is waiting to release all this evidence at some more appropriate time.
_____________________
Here I have tweeted your post to my orginal link so evidence gets archived there too
https://twitter.com/ChampakbhumiaE/stat ... 37696?s=20

Khalsa
BRFite
Posts: 1590
Joined: 12 Nov 2000 12:31
Location: NZL

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Khalsa » 26 Aug 2019 15:59

Nailed !!!!!

fanne
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2989
Joined: 11 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby fanne » 26 Aug 2019 17:32

Yup 006 was the one shot down. It turned from 2 seater to 1 in official tsp publication. (For two seater they had to announce the other name - the pilot lynched).
Here are some other possibilities
1. It is some other tail number, they are obviously hyping it and at an appropriate time will show off 606 and puncture the whole narrative
2. paint other plane with 606
3. this could be genuine mistake by tspaf. They could not get all angles covered and this is indeed the plane.

Ashokk
BRFite
Posts: 489
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Ashokk » 26 Aug 2019 17:41

Here's one more shot of 84606

Image

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11039
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 26 Aug 2019 18:07

We will have to see, by given their deliberate description with the name Shahazudin etc, and in the initial days F-16D was mentioned. I dont it is 84606.

We will have to wait for more info on this.

Rishi
Forum Moderator
Posts: 740
Joined: 29 Sep 2002 11:31
Location: Maximum City

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Rishi » 26 Aug 2019 19:13

Aditya_V wrote:We will have to see, by given their deliberate description with the name Shahazudin etc, and in the initial days F-16D was mentioned. I dont it is 84606.

We will have to wait for more info on this.

Tom Cooper's wrote on Day 1 on ACIG that his Pak sources said it was a F16BM that came down.

Seems like none of the crown jewels (Block 52) were used during their op

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11039
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 26 Aug 2019 19:45

I think a lot of the videos available online in the begging of 1 Mar 19 have been pulled down by the Pakis, it would be nice if one can find these online- all of them say 2 aircraft down. If we can see an archive of the 128 videos seen by Shiv and team, it would be nice.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7618
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Rakesh » 26 Aug 2019 19:51

fanne wrote:Yup 006 was the one shot down. It turned from 2 seater to 1 in official tsp publication. (For two seater they had to announce the other name - the pilot lynched).
Here are some other possibilities
1. It is some other tail number, they are obviously hyping it and at an appropriate time will show off 606 and puncture the whole narrative
2. paint other plane with 606
3. this could be genuine mistake by tspaf. They could not get all angles covered and this is indeed the plane.

Possibility 1 has likely already occurred. There is a very good chance that another F-16 has been delivered to the PAF from either the US or Turkey. Shooting down a 4th generation F-16 using a 3rd generation MiG-21 is not good press for Lockheed Martin.

Possibility 2 ties in with Possibility 1.

Luxtor
BRFite
Posts: 190
Joined: 28 Sep 2003 11:31
Location: Earth ... but in a parallel universe

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Luxtor » 27 Aug 2019 06:48

^^^
Agree with the above, the Americans were too quick verify that all Puki F16s were accounted for. They just couldn't believe and take it that their vaunted F16 that had "so many kills without even a single loss to enemy action" was downed by a "lowly" MiG 21. So they had to keep up the legend of the F16 when they are still trying to sell it to so many countries around the world. They were stuck between a rock and a hard place as they were trying to sell F16 to India too but they still chose to go with their myth. They took a chance that India will not choose the F16 anyway so then why jeopardize their chances of continuing to sell it to other countries.

habal
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6636
Joined: 24 Dec 2009 18:46

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby habal » 27 Aug 2019 10:42

MiG-21 deployment in Srinagar was INC idea to prevent escalation. We need a military background def min to cut the facts from clutter SNR to discern which such weak areas exist in our defence and suggest immidiate measures. The edge of the sword would have been kept blunt in multiple places to avoid embarassing pak military.

A civvie def min will never be able to guess the right picture.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18255
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 27 Aug 2019 11:22

Rishi wrote:Tom Cooper's wrote on Day 1 on ACIG that his Pak sources said it was a F16BM that came down.

Seems like none of the crown jewels (Block 52) were used during their op


With AMRAAM, AN/APG-68 V(9) and the same EW capability as the Block 50/52. There really is no practical difference between the two.

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11039
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 27 Aug 2019 12:01

Karan M wrote:
Rishi wrote:Tom Cooper's wrote on Day 1 on ACIG that his Pak sources said it was a F16BM that came down.

Seems like none of the crown jewels (Block 52) were used during their op


With AMRAAM, AN/APG-68 V(9) and the same EW capability as the Block 50/52. There really is no practical difference between the two.


I thought the engines were less powerful affecting the power output to the radar, plus CFT tanks and higher structural strength means the Block 50/52 although less maneuverable are the premium strike aircraft of the PAF.

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11039
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 27 Aug 2019 12:06

habal wrote:MiG-21 deployment in Srinagar was INC idea to prevent escalation. We need a military background def min to cut the facts from clutter SNR to discern which such weak areas exist in our defence and suggest immidiate measures. The edge of the sword would have been kept blunt in multiple places to avoid embarassing pak military.

A civvie def min will never be able to guess the right picture.


I dont agree, these aircraft are relatively small, short range , quick take off. Given the assets in the IAF, these are ideal at Srinagar, Pathankot etc, till Tejas can replace them. We dont have enough M-2000, Mig 29's to put them in front line AFB's. SU-30's require much larger Hangers and probably a lot more uptime to be on ORP.


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: sum and 52 guests