MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby sum » 16 Sep 2019 15:27

Absolutely no doubt in my mind that it was a "shot across the bow" as mentioned by Nikhil ( and the video seems to indicate the same) . No way will 4 H-4 PGM miss their targets however bad/antiquated we may say they are

IIRC< they didn't dare do the actual attack since they knew that the thappad would be severe but had to show something to their awaam ( which they are doing now). Mostly, they had gamed that a "near miss" would be forgiven in the fog of war since it was India which was trying to de-escalate after the strikes to avoid further escalation ( and calling it non-military strikes etc)

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Bart S » 16 Sep 2019 16:13

sum wrote:Absolutely no doubt in my mind that it was a "shot across the bow" as mentioned by Nikhil ( and the video seems to indicate the same) . No way will 4 H-4 PGM miss their targets however bad/antiquated we may say they are

IIRC< they didn't dare do the actual attack since they knew that the thappad would be severe but had to show something to their awaam ( which they are doing now). Mostly, they had gamed that a "near miss" would be forgiven in the fog of war since it was India which was trying to de-escalate after the strikes to avoid further escalation ( and calling it non-military strikes etc)


It is quite likely that the PGM needed to have target designated till the end, which the Pakis could not do.

The Raptor II system flies autonomously to the target and is then designated on the intended point of impact by the operator.


If that was the case and the Paki jets panicked and fled when Indian jets were scrambled, what difference does it make if there were 1 or 4?

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Khalsa » 16 Sep 2019 16:21

Okay separate a few things in this thread please.

Q: Did IAF hit its targets ?
A: Yes

Q: Did IAF strike kill someone ? Human beings that were involved in activities that are considered terrorists like.
A: Yes

Q: Is PAF going to respond to the strike on terrorist and therefore become defender of terrorists especially on world stage and prove our point ?
A: No

Q: Is PAF going to respond to the direct aggression of their country's airspace ?
A: Yes

Q: Is PAF and Pak going to admit terrorists were killed by IAF ?
A: No

Then what are they going to hit in retribution ?

IAF was employed to hit and kill suspected terrorists linked to Pulwama
PAF cannot be employed to kill Indian Army Soldiers and Officers in lieu of terrorists or pine trees.

Because if a single soldier of IA is killed then they escalated and lost the escalation control methods at the same time.
Now escalation control sits with India. Now IAF and IA can go tit for tatting.

The pressure on Pak Armed forces was not someone was killed in Balakot.
The pressure on Pak Armed forces was they can no longer maintain integrity of the borders.
They just wanted to prove ... we can breach your border integrity as well and say to their populace that we can fly across borders as well.

Modi got them right where he wanted. << I can walk across to slap you anytime you are not behaving >>

Game changed forever

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby ArjunPandit » 16 Sep 2019 17:11

^^we didnt answer it then..but then when time come, special love would be showered on these units or bases for sure...it was a political decision...best left there only...

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Luxtor » 16 Sep 2019 17:19

Next time something like this whole episode happens, we need to have our surveillance apparatus such as Falcon AWACS as well as ground based radars fully ready expecting them to react. As a matter of fact our surveillance should be stepped up many folds and be on continuous alert from this time forward, even during "peace time". During battle we should also target their Swedish AEW&C Erieye, with long range high speed anti-radiation missiles (HARM) which should be possible because Erieye would be blazing brightly with strong radar signals coming off of it. We also need to use our space based assets to monitor all of their aircraft's current locations & movements on a 24/7 basis. Sorta like NORAD of the U.S./Canadian air forces, 24/7 - always alert with our aircraft ready to scramble in minutes and AA missiles of various variety on the constant ready status.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby yensoy » 16 Sep 2019 18:20

Their public posture was that nobody was killed, just a few trees and crows down. Literally that.

Regardless of public posture, their armed forces had to communicate their displeasure to our armed forces, and their intent & ability to hit back.

So they had zero justification to invade into our territory and take out any military target or any human - military or civilian. The situation certainly gave them probable cause to calibrate their device for a miss; whether that's what transpired is another story, but it also shows our vulnerability and outdated RoE. Maybe we were reconciled to taking a hit before hitting back, so as to not be the first to escalate...

I watched Pravin Sawhney's youtube video praising the Pakfauj for being professional and well prepared. There is some merit to what he is saying; however I think he has totally missed the point of the Doval doctorine of offensive defence, which is exactly what we are wreaking on the Pakis to equalize their subconventional warfare capabilities. Keeping the LoC hot, using big guns on the LoC & actively hitting their posts, isolating them diplomatically (to the extent of our abilities), weeding out their agents from our soil, disabling their networks - monetary/communication etc, and the multiple limited offensive engagements have swung the pendulum back in our favour.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Manish_Sharma » 16 Sep 2019 20:21

sum wrote:Absolutely no doubt in my mind that it was a "shot across the bow" as mentioned by Nikhil ( and the video seems to indicate the same) . No way will 4 H-4 PGM miss their targets however bad/antiquated we may say they are ...



You are soooooo wrong, these bloodthirsty sickos will never miss deliberately, they panicked and there delivery platforms are inadequate:


tsarkar wrote:
Manish_Sharma wrote:This tweet shows evidence of Pakistan trying to hide F-16 loss...

https://twitter.com/krishnajaga/status/ ... 6450050048 ---> The table with Roll of honours released in June mentioned F-16B. The same table in August has transformed it into an F-16A!! See both and draw your inferences.

More interesting is the H-4 Mirage combination. Two Mirages carried H-4 missiles and two Mirages carried guidance pods.

It seems the Mirage cant carry the H-4 missile and guidance pod together. Both are carried on separate aircraft.
Even more interesting is that one pod cannot guide two missiles. They require a separate pod for each missile. Although two pods could have been used to provide redundancy.

The pod carriers are ex Libyan aircraft and the missile carriers direct purchase aircraft from 70's & 80's.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7699&start=3120#p2374391

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Nikhil T » 17 Sep 2019 04:51

+1 to Khalsa's post.

To summarize my thoughts on the previous page, PAF did retaliate to IAF's incursion. They had to or else they would have lost their country's confidence in being able to maintain's their borders.

However, they couldn't really hit one of IA or IAF bases, because that would basically be an act of war, which they can't have with their broke economy and India's conventional edge.

So, they resorted to doing an action across the LoC to show that they too can do the same to India. Except that, they had a short timeframe to redeem themselves during which IAF would be on full 24x7 CAP alert and they couldn't risk being shot down.

So, they ended up dropping expensive PGMs near to our base (aka "shooting across the bow" in naval terms).

My point was that this video of them using PGMs need not be contested by us, because we know our enemy's capabilities. It was a harmless action to us and our original message (that your terror rats aren't safe from our actions at our time of choosing) has been received. We don't need to be butt hurt at the video and claim that its fake (unless we know it is), because we expected this action from them.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 17 Sep 2019 11:14

I am not sure of the Pakis thought we will escalate, cause they had thier Amraam's ready and felt they could deal with any escalation. In Fact by causing Indian casualties they would have put egg on the Indian leadership face.

They would have felt International efforts would have cut India like in 2002 and 2008 where they got away with brazen attacks with a complaint Indian Media.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Khalsa » 17 Sep 2019 15:27

This certainly is thread that just keeps on giving. Perhaps one of the more robust discussion threads after tejas for me.
:-)

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 17 Sep 2019 16:04

It is a once in 48 year Dogfight, offcourse it will be discussed till the truth comes out

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 17 Sep 2019 16:16

Both sides dusted off pre-prepped plans and launched them. Both sides gave away Ops Methods & tactics.

Interesting:
    *AWACS on both sides, IAF used terrain masking + deception to pull off an audacious strike on 26th
    *PAF tried the same, but with less success on Feb 27th, were able to funnel enough fighters to create local dominance but unable/unwilling to risk casualties by closing in on IAFs DCA efforts
    *IAF was willing to risk casualties both via large Su-30 package sent to border + Mirage fleet sent to strike into Pak
    *On Feb 27th, IAF on defense had enough radar coverage + IACCS to feel confident in not having AWACS on theater
    * + for IAF
    Training (BVR, WVR), tactics
    Weapons, sensors (R73E, Su-30 sensors, Mirage 2000 radar + weapons package)
    Netra used in wartime on Feb 26th, as was SPICE
    Aggression (Avenger 1, Abhi)
    *- for IAF
    Force disposition (too few a/c in air, due to HAS unavailability, dependence on QRA)
    PAFs savvy planning by relying on Mirage 3 and JF-17s as PGM carriers has blunted IAF's numbers edge, while IAF kept asking for gold plated MMRCA and ignored the LCA program. BRF et al were pointing this out for ages, but hey, when the opponent does it, its all well. If there was ever a facepalm moment it was this (seeing Mirages launch REKs past an outnumbered IAF CAP which was swarmed by less capable but far more aircraft)
    AWACS unavailability (not really critical, as GBAD+IACCS compensated as planned) would be an issue for OCA deep into Pak, again an issue which has to be fixed
    CIWS unavailability (for IA targets), while Akash can protect IAF Air Fields etc, IA needs to test/validate SkyCapture/Flycatcher/L-70 combo against such targets
    Much discussed comms issue (SDR etc); only partly resolved as current orders are sufficient only for part of the IAF fleet
    Strategic inability to "read" PAF intent and use it to ambush PAF

Biggest change has been Modi's decision to use IAF to hit into Pak. That's the real redline that's been crossed. We killed 250 odd Pakistanis including Maulana Yousuf Raza, and the Pakistanis couldn't do squat.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby yensoy » 17 Sep 2019 18:40

^^^^ Let's not forget the friendly fire helo downing in Srinagar that day in the '-' list :cry:

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby naird » 17 Sep 2019 18:58

Karan M wrote:PAFs savvy planning by relying on Mirage 3 and JF-17s as PGM carriers has blunted IAF's numbers edge, while IAF kept asking for gold plated MMRCA and ignored the LCA program. BRF et al were pointing this out for ages, but hey, when the opponent does it, its all well. If there was ever a facepalm moment it was this (seeing Mirages launch REKs past an outnumbered IAF CAP which was swarmed by less capable but far more aircraft)


+1 - This to me was the most important outcome out of this conflict. I hope light bulbs would have turned on in senior IAF brass. LCA is an extremely capable aircraft - and ever since AM Nambiars endorsement of LCA performance during Gaganshakti - there should be no doubt about its capability !

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby ArjunPandit » 17 Sep 2019 19:24

didnt abhibhushanji mentioned that daggers will be used when needed ...

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby nachiket » 18 Sep 2019 02:22

Karan M wrote:Both sides dusted off pre-prepped plans and launched them. Both sides gave away Ops Methods & tactics.

....
Force disposition (too few a/c in air, due to HAS unavailability, dependence on QRA)
PAFs savvy planning by relying on Mirage 3 and JF-17s as PGM carriers has blunted IAF's numbers edge, while IAF kept asking for gold plated MMRCA and ignored the LCA program. BRF et al were pointing this out for ages, but hey, when the opponent does it, its all well. If there was ever a facepalm moment it was this (seeing Mirages launch REKs past an outnumbered IAF CAP which was swarmed by less capable but far more aircraft)
...

Excellent post as usual Karan saar.

Thank you for mentioning the force-disposition issue. There has been a lot of wailing and furious discussions about R-77 vs AMRAAM and Mig-21 vs F-16 and how IAF desperately needs Meteors to blunt PAF's BVR edge since the Feb 27 engagement. But very little discussion on the far more significant force disposition issue which we face there.

There are simply not enough air bases close enough and the ones which are present do not have enough HAS as you have mentioned to have permanently stationed squadrons which can react rapidly to an evolving situation. And there are no easy solutions to this problem. Even if the Su-30's were carrying Meteors instead of R-77's it would not change the fact that there were only 2 of them in the air and since IAF had to patrol a large area 24x7 that may be the limit of what we can do currently. This is a huge problem. Far more than capability shortfalls in the R-77 missiles.

The "superior" AMRAAMs eventually failed to hit the Su-30's. If the Su-30's had been toting an equally capable missile (and assuming the F-16's did not have a height advantage which they did) and had fired at the same range they would have probably missed too. If the Pakis had pressed the attack and got into a merge it would be 2 Su-30's against 4 F-16's (with 4 more close by if I remember the picture correctly). What happens then? If it had been Rafales instead of Su-30's the situation would be equally problematic.

Considering the siutation, losing just one Mig-21 in exchange for an F-16 should be considered a hugely successful outcome.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 18 Sep 2019 04:46

yensoy wrote:^^^^ Let's not forget the friendly fire helo downing in Srinagar that day in the '-' list :cry:


Yes, true - I was completely focused on the air battle and prior days strike. But you are correct, we lost far too much in that downing, a SOP issue apparently.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 18 Sep 2019 05:08

Thanks Nachiket. I think if both IAF and GOI have to face up to the threat PAF poses, let alone a 2 front war, Modi has to open up the purse strings, period & IAF has also got to wake up and start looking beyond the MRCA. I doubt there is anywhere near the budget required for them to buy 114 MMRCA. Perhaps another 36 Rafale, and the rest have to be LCAs and additional Su-30/MiGs whatever, with upgrade programs kicked off.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 18 Sep 2019 11:41

I have been saying this for some time, we need more capable light fighters, places like Gaggal airport having 6-8 fighters for CAP will be very useful.

The biggest mistake that day is we did not predict the Paf game plan and were stuck with ROE, even if 1 SU30MKI and had come fast and High and launch r-77 or we have something like RVV-BD that day, the call sign "vigil" would have fallen off the sky and PAF fighters would be bleeding badly, but then Hindsight is good thing for 5 minute window of action. Thats where I think WIng Commander Abhinandan had to act fast without waiting for approvals.

It was our lack of Airfields North and PAF concentration being in that area along with tactics that spoil us. Sargodha, Murid, Miawali, Kohat, Peshawar, Kamra, Chaklala and even Rafiqui- all in the ring around Rawalpindi and Isloo. Only 3 airbases in the south, Masroor-Faisal , Minhas and Bholari basically covering Karachi Rajastan.

The PAF will always be able to throw a hell of a lot of fighters at Jammu Poonch section.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Cain Marko » 18 Sep 2019 12:12

There had to be some way to procure more Netra, this is beyond stupid at this point..

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby tandav » 18 Sep 2019 13:12

yensoy wrote:^^^^ Let's not forget the friendly fire helo downing in Srinagar that day in the '-' list :cry:


More than anything it is this loss that rankles me most... shows lack of professionalism and heads have rolled from what I know. But this again leads me to question on the ability of Indian Armed forces to work as a cohesive unit. Shockingly the helicopter captain turned off IFF during time of high threat, it shows that the wartime SOPs employed were piss poor or SOPs were not employed or decision making of the Helicopter pilot/Air commandant Srinagar shows headless chicken syndrome.

It brings back bad memories of IA deployments during Operation Parakram 2001-2002 where we had many IA casualties due to mishandling mines or walking into IA minefields. Now we have IAF copters being brought down due to IAF point defence missiles in 2019.

http://www.indiandefencereview.com/spotlights/lost-opportunities-in-operation-parakram/

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Luxtor » 18 Sep 2019 13:37

Aditya_V wrote:I have been saying this for some time, we need more capable light fighters, places like Gaggal airport having 6-8 fighters for CAP will be very useful.

The biggest mistake that day is we did not predict the Paf game plan and were stuck with ROE, even if 1 SU30MKI and had come fast and High and launch r-77 or we have something like RVV-BD that day, the call sign "vigil" would have fallen off the sky and PAF fighters would be bleeding badly, but then Hindsight is good thing for 5 minute window of action. Thats where I think WIng Commander Abhinandan had to act fast without waiting for approvals.

It was our lack of Airfields North and PAF concentration being in that area along with tactics that spoil us. Sargodha, Murid, Miawali, Kohat, Peshawar, Kamra, Chaklala and even Rafiqui- all in the ring around Rawalpindi and Isloo. Only 3 airbases in the south, Masroor-Faisal , Minhas and Bholari basically covering Karachi Rajastan.

The PAF will always be able to throw a hell of a lot of fighters at Jammu Poonch section.


♤♤♤
That is the big question, how was it that we weren't prepared? Just the previous day we attacked them and we couldn't predict that they will react and change our RoE accordingly to be more vigilant and dynamic? Increase our CAP and bring in the Falcon AWACS to the area so we can see them coming from a long distance away? Remind and order our forces to be prepared? This is a failure of leadership in the chain of command going all the way up the CoAS.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 18 Sep 2019 14:10

May be we hit them very hard on 26 Feb and probably thought they would deny like surgical strikes, while hindsight is easy, I still think many in India dont understand Pakistaniyat.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Kashi » 18 Sep 2019 19:14

Aditya_V wrote:May be we hit them very hard on 26 Feb and probably thought they would deny like surgical strikes, while hindsight is easy, I still think many in India dont understand Pakistaniyat.


It beggars belief that the armed forces did not or do not understand Pakistaniyat.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby manjgu » 18 Sep 2019 22:37

Aditya_V..everyone is wiser in hindsight. I think Balakot had strategic ramifications..the Feb 27 was a minor tactical action. Creme de la creme of PAF turned out on Feb27 and they could not do a diddly squat. If Abhinandan had decided to return like his no2 , I dont know where would PAF be hiding? PAF turned out to be 1 trick pony. IAF learned its lessons as well... we should wait for round 2.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby nam » 18 Sep 2019 23:09

One thing I am not able to get an answer, is why were the Mirage/JF17 which were firing PGM not targeted with BVR?

The H4 has to be guided by the Mirage until impact and this means they have to be at station during the entire period. Why were they not hit as soon as the PGM were released?

The question that comes to my mind is can we detect PGM launches? If not, we have a major handicap. If yes, why did the Mirages escape unhurt?

Even a bigger question, why were IAF strike packages not pound Pak Army positions on LoC, as soon as the PAF stuck on IA camps?

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Nikhil T » 19 Sep 2019 00:22

nam wrote:One thing I am not able to get an answer, is why were the Mirage/JF17 which were firing PGM not targeted with BVR?

The H4 has to be guided by the Mirage until impact and this means they have to be at station during the entire period. Why were they not hit as soon as the PGM were released?

The question that comes to my mind is can we detect PGM launches? If not, we have a major handicap. If yes, why did the Mirages escape unhurt?

Even a bigger question, why were IAF strike packages not pound Pak Army positions on LoC, as soon as the PAF stuck on IA camps?


This is the billion dollar question. I was also disappointed that PAF was the air force that fired the last shots, not IAF. I can only hypothesize that Modi-Doval duo did not want to trigger full scale war by high profile IAF retaliation and instead chose to retaliate through IA Bofors.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Rudradev » 19 Sep 2019 01:02

Nikhil T wrote:
nam wrote:One thing I am not able to get an answer, is why were the Mirage/JF17 which were firing PGM not targeted with BVR?

The H4 has to be guided by the Mirage until impact and this means they have to be at station during the entire period. Why were they not hit as soon as the PGM were released?

The question that comes to my mind is can we detect PGM launches? If not, we have a major handicap. If yes, why did the Mirages escape unhurt?

Even a bigger question, why were IAF strike packages not pound Pak Army positions on LoC, as soon as the PAF stuck on IA camps?


This is the billion dollar question. I was also disappointed that PAF was the air force that fired the last shots, not IAF. I can only hypothesize that Modi-Doval duo did not want to trigger full scale war by high profile IAF retaliation and instead chose to retaliate through IA Bofors.


Everything becomes clear if you look at how India conducted Balakot and its aftermath in terms of MAD's overarching strategic goals.

A fine line had to be straddled.

1) We had to convince the international community that the "nuclear flashpoint" blackmail that Pakistan had all along been using to support terrorism was bogus.

Therefore: we had to demonstrate that
(a) we can and will respond with a high profile military strike against Pakistan in response to a terrorist attack.
(b) we have absolute control over the escalation ladder; we will choose when to strike, how to strike, and then apply the brakes on the cycle of repercussions as and when we want. This clearly shows that there's no question of "hostilities spiraling out of control between nuclear-armed states" etc.

2) We had to convince the Pakis that any terrorist attack by them will from now on be met with a devastating military riposte, and that we ARE ready for any type of war they may seek to impose upon us in response.

These are two slightly conflicting messages for two different audiences, but both had to be clearly received at the same time.

Given this I don't see how we could have handled Feb 26-28 any better.

It was very well finessed. I would not be surprised if Pigeon himself was directing ops in real time on Feb 27 morning.

Balakot airstrike plus Su-30s, M2Ks, MiG-29s following the ROE on Feb 27th (playing strictly defense) delivered Message #1. Would not have worked if we had made shammi kabab of all their Bandars, Mirages etc. that morning.

Balakot airstrike plus Abhinandan taking down one F-16, naval deployments on 27th night, and border infantry/artillery/SF ops since that time have delivered Message #2.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby ArjunPandit » 19 Sep 2019 03:04

^^RDji, I think one point you didnt highlight enough is that India is making this hitting process BAU..this is slow warming of water with crab/frogs in it. the world didnt react and in future there will be a precedent both for indian govt and foreign IPAs (International Peace Ayatollahs) that for indian response to terrorist attack keep your mouth shut. This combined with control of escalation ladder and the messaging parts that you highlighted, puts pakis .. this will be very useful when a sort of a reverse thucidydes trap will be in place for pakis..when they will be so poor and india would be much better that they would think dying in blowing endians is a better option for them...and in the second half of this govt they will face this dillema much more than now..

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 19 Sep 2019 03:10

Because our Su-30s and Mirages were being suppressed by their opponents. They were engaged in a BVR battle vs the escorts. That's what happens when you are outnumbered.

nam wrote:One thing I am not able to get an answer, is why were the Mirage/JF17 which were firing PGM not targeted with BVR?

The H4 has to be guided by the Mirage until impact and this means they have to be at station during the entire period. Why were they not hit as soon as the PGM were released?

The question that comes to my mind is can we detect PGM launches? If not, we have a major handicap. If yes, why did the Mirages escape unhurt?

Even a bigger question, why were IAF strike packages not pound Pak Army positions on LoC, as soon as the PAF stuck on IA camps?

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby nachiket » 19 Sep 2019 05:32

There were a grand total of 4 IAF fighters in the air (in the area in question) when the incoming attack (with 24 fighters) was detected. Only after WingCo Abhinandan and his wingman scrambled (thank God for the Mig-21's exceptionally low scramble time) did that total become 6.

Even if IAF was not following the unwritten BVR rules (no BVR attacks across the LoC) the IAF pilots might have been loathe to fire off their BVRAAMs at very long ranges with low kill probability. They were vastly outnumbered and would have had to use their weapons judiciously.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby yensoy » 19 Sep 2019 07:31

The attacker has the luxury of concentrating or focusing their forces at the point of attack.

The defender must scatter resources all over the defended area. By definition, the defender cannot match the attacker 1:1.

OTOH, if the attacker does succeed in penetrating the defence, then the defender can take on an offensive position elsewhere, at a location and time of the defender's choosing, and the cycle goes on.

We defended successfully, so there was no retribution or escalation needed once Abhi was returned.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby arshyam » 19 Sep 2019 07:42

Regarding the lack of BVR usage, wasn't civilian air traffic also a concern on our side? Maybe we didn't want to escalate for that reason?

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby manjgu » 19 Sep 2019 10:10

2) whatever ordanance fired by Mirages had IMHO 80 to 120 km range on them...so they can be safely in their air space and take aim and fire without any fear of interference...so where is the question of IAF firing missiles at them?? this simple thing is being ignored by all.... maybe they did not fire their weapons from their extreme ranges but closer so as to act as a bait for IAF fighters but still from well within their air space. why will IAF fire their missiles if PAF is within its air space...Did PAF cross into indian airspace at any time?? PAF had the initiative and surprise... just as we had in Balakote. neither we nor them can get equal or more no of fighters to a surprise intrusion / move. Both sides didnt want to escalate... thats why we said balakote was non mil target and they avoided hitting army depots etc. 3) its not that in a full blown war Pakis will not hit indian targets be it ammo dump etc. war is not clean and both sides get hit. thats the nature of the beast. issue is who can inflict more damage and prevail over the other. Pakis hit the ammo dump in kargil but did it stop IA from launching ops?? if a war is coming, ammo dumps such as the one in the PAF vid will be emptied out and not be at their full capacity. 3) the fact that we station our top fighters a little behind is a boon as well. the PAF airfields being closer to the border does give it a certain advantage but also make them more vulnerable...

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 19 Sep 2019 10:42

But one more things become very clear, Paki uniformed and non uniformed Jihadis operate under a Nuclear and PAF umbrella, reduce thier reliabilty on these and thier Jihadi activities go elsewhere. It is imperative for these reasons that GOI should understand the importance local industry based dominance of IAF is required.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Singha » 19 Sep 2019 10:56

the pakis got their idea about extreme range amraam shots from here


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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 19 Sep 2019 11:31

Guys what at 0:10 to 0:45 and 2:20 of this video. Clear mention of "Doosara Banda" and the Paki Army guys saying "Hosh Hosh" shut up- since the guy is PAF, I pretty sure Haider Ali was also brought to the location, only the 2nd pilot in the F-16 whose Parachute got caught and died at CMH is a mystery.

Can someone download and keept his file for archive, I have downloaded in phone youttube app, dont know what to do with it.


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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Manish_P » 19 Sep 2019 11:32

Rudradev wrote:Everything becomes clear if you look at how India conducted Balakot and its aftermath in terms of MAD's overarching strategic goals.

A fine line had to be straddled.

1) We had to convince the international community that the "nuclear flashpoint" blackmail that Pakistan had all along been using to support terrorism was bogus.

Therefore: we had to demonstrate that
(a) we can and will respond with a high profile military strike against Pakistan in response to a terrorist attack.
(b) we have absolute control over the escalation ladder; we will choose when to strike, how to strike, and then apply the brakes on the cycle of repercussions as and when we want. This clearly shows that there's no question of "hostilities spiraling out of control between nuclear-armed states" etc.

2) We had to convince the Pakis that any terrorist attack by them will from now on be met with a devastating military riposte, and that we ARE ready for any type of war they may seek to impose upon us in response.

These are two slightly conflicting messages for two different audiences, but both had to be clearly received at the same time.


+1 Brilliant post

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby manjgu » 19 Sep 2019 12:21

balakote had strategic implications/ramifications...Feb 27 was a minor tactical action ( in short) ... but the napakis think otherwise !!

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 19 Sep 2019 13:58

Yes 27 Feb and Abhinandan capture along with F-16 denial has been a boost to Pakistaniyat and BIF- a.k.a Pakistaniyat allies H&D, even if reality is different.


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