MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 19 Sep 2019 16:49

nachiket wrote:There were a grand total of 4 IAF fighters in the air (in the area in question) when the incoming attack (with 24 fighters) was detected. Only after WingCo Abhinandan and his wingman scrambled (thank God for the Mig-21's exceptionally low scramble time) did that total become 6.

Even if IAF was not following the unwritten BVR rules (no BVR attacks across the LoC) the IAF pilots might have been loathe to fire off their BVRAAMs at very long ranges with low kill probability. They were vastly outnumbered and would have had to use their weapons judiciously.


Nailed it. IAF pilots would be conserving every round that matters.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 19 Sep 2019 16:51

manjgu wrote:balakote had strategic implications/ramifications...Feb 27 was a minor tactical action ( in short) ... but the napakis think otherwise !!


They are jumping over themselves because both St Antony's disarmament drive devastated our capabilities and Modi V1.0's cautious funding did not lead to massive recapitalization. So they feel confident and uppity.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby mmasand » 21 Sep 2019 01:10

Grab a bag of popcorn.


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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 21 Sep 2019 01:52

Rahul Kanwals mannerisms...grrrrr...!

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Rakesh » 09 Oct 2019 06:31

https://twitter.com/VishnuNDTV/status/1 ... 1456023553 ----> So Avenger 1 (extreme right aircraft), an IAF Su-30 that Pak insisted was downed a day after Balakot ... makes an appearance on Air Force day, apparently flown by the same pilots who were "shot down.'' The IAF provides transparency, what about Pak and Doosra Banda?

Image

https://twitter.com/joe_sameer/status/1 ... 3530766337 ---> In a sharp rebuttal to PAF's false claim of shooting down an IAF Su-30MKI during Operation Swift Retort - the IAF flew the 'Avenger' formation on its 87th Air Force Day showcasing 3 x No 9 Sqn Mirage 2000s, escorted by 2 x No 15 Sqn Su-30MKIs, YES - the same 'Avenger-1' crew claimed by the PAF.

Image

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Rakesh » 09 Oct 2019 06:34

Drag & Drop this picture into a new window. She is a beauty!

Congratulations to all Air Warriors on occasion of the 87th Air Force Day. Remembering the unsung heroes who stood steadfast in face of challenges & adversities in the finest traditions of the IAF - TouchTheSkyWithGlory!

A Superb Flanker click by Saurav Chordia (https://twitter.com/SauravChordia1).

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 09 Oct 2019 12:09

Its been more than 6 months but I hope we get atleast unofficial details

26 Feb 19 morning

1) What did we hit on Muzaffarabad and Chakoti

27 Feb 19 morning

1) Why did IAF not launch BVR missiles, did it require authorization and in the 10-12 minutes that it took the air engaments were over

Now that 2 Air Chief Marshals have publicly stated that PAF came to hit miltary targets but missed, let us put this theory to rest. Thats after Mirage launched H-4 bombs and Jf-17 launched 83 REK missed, the group 3 F-16's came close/crossed LOC and launched a LGB at Naushera Brigade HQ.

Finally, hopefully we get the details of the Tail No. and the Pilots who died for the PAF. I am sure some of the Pakistani videos later taken down by the Pakistanis, should have been downloaded and digitally enhanced by our intelligence agencies, Plus surely we should got hand of Adbul videos taken during Internet blackout in POK. Plus the US would have the details as they have thier men in Sargodha and would have examined the wreckage for any tampering- we should get these details through unoffical channels by now.

Looking at the Thanamandi and Mirpur videos, the sequence of events looks like,

1) From Thanamandi, you can see a fighter aircraft shot down, forming a Tadpole shape and vapor trail of another aircraft turnign around and moving away- this is probably the F-16 going down


2) From POk Mirpur you see an aircraft going down and another at 15 sec turning away, exactly 1 minute later at 1:15 anther aircraft comes in the same place and launches a Missile. This is probably the Mig 21 going down, no tadpole shape etc. and the F-16 launching an AMRAAM at Abhinandan's Wingman in tail chase scenario which missed.


From IAF radar images Both Abhinandan and his wingman crossed the LOC.

I my 2 paise is this, Abhinandan and his wing man

1) They went after the 3 F-16's which came to launch LGB and using superior momentum and intercept speed to intercept the F-16 with an R-73

2) With thier RWR's ringing they turned towards the Mangla dam F-16's and wanted to take them out as well when an AMRAAM hit Wing COmmanders Abhinandan aircraft, his wingman at point probably based radio orders started to get back towards LOC.

This would explain the position and initial reports of Wing COmmander said he just lock tone. They shot 1 F-16 and wanted to go after others when an AMRAAM hit when he about to launch the 2nd R-73 at his aggressor.
Last edited by Aditya_V on 09 Oct 2019 12:32, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 09 Oct 2019 12:23

1. There were no other strikes.
2. The IAF trains its pilots well, when outnumbered, they had 20-24 missiles amongst the two Su-30s vs 48 missiles on the 8 Vipers (assuming 6 missiles each). It is extremely important then, to not waste your AAM unless you have proper launch authorization & that authorization relates to a high Pk shot.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 09 Oct 2019 12:37

That sounds reasonable., and that is one area where IAF has few Airbases while PAF has many.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 09 Oct 2019 18:32

To add to it, the AMRAAM recovered was from Chassana Tehsil in Reasi District, it was most probably the AMRAAM fired at Wing Commander wingman, from the Video there seems to around 1 minute and few seconds, the Mig 21 on afterburner would have been 20Km ahead of the F-16 who probably wanted to launch and turn before the LOC.

http://www.uniindia.com/j-k-police-rewards-cops-others-for-quick-action-on-amraam-remnants/north/news/1515850.html

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby manjgu » 09 Oct 2019 19:39

KaranM ... 1) i am working on point 1 !! hopefully soon will get it from horses mouth. 2) Does the map display in the cockpit tell the pilot if LOC has been crossed?? i mean does a shallow ingress of 1 to 5 km inside enemy airspace show up on the map display inside the cockpit or a 3rd party tells?? just curious.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby rohitvats » 09 Oct 2019 19:45

Aditya_V wrote:That sounds reasonable., and that is one area where IAF has few Airbases while PAF has many.


On the contrary, that is one sector where IAF has bases while Pakistan Air Force has none! Except for the airfield in Skardu.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 09 Oct 2019 20:03

manjgu wrote:KaranM ... 1) i am working on point 1 !! hopefully soon will get it from horses mouth. 2) Does the map display in the cockpit tell the pilot if LOC has been crossed?? i mean does a shallow ingress of 1 to 5 km inside enemy airspace show up on the map display inside the cockpit or a 3rd party tells?? just curious.


It most definitely should, if the aircraft has a digital map generator which is interfaced with a mission system, with proper navigation set. However, I can't find a depiction of the Bison having a Digital Map Generator or a Moving Map display.

The upgrade consists of Phazotron NIIR's Kopyo multimode X-band pulse Doppler radar, New nosecone, new canopy, single-piece windshield and new canopy made of stressed acrylic composites, Sextant's TOTEM RLG-INS with NSS-100P GPS embedded GPS receivers, El-Op HUD Sextant MFD-55 LCD display, Autopilot, DRDO's Tarang radar warning receivers (RWR), digital flight data recorder, new liquid air cooling system, HOTAS controls, a SURA helmet mounted sight, stores management system, digital air data computer system, short range radio navigation system, new HF/VHF/UHF radios, twin conformal Vympel flare dispensers (26mm, 120 rounds) and a new electric power supply system. Reportedly the new RWR to be fitted, is an indigenous system developed by DRDO and goes by the name Tarang. A modified version of this RWR will be used aboard the Su-30MKI.


https://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/airc ... ig-21.html

[Edit]I did find some references that it has a DMG, but not confirmed.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 09 Oct 2019 20:19

rohitvats wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:That sounds reasonable., and that is one area where IAF has few Airbases while PAF has many.


On the contrary, that is one sector where IAF has bases while Pakistan Air Force has none! Except for the airfield in Skardu.


This is Pir Panjal, southern J&K, In our side it is Srinagar, Awatipura, Pathankot and Adampur AFB. The Paf has Murid, Sargodha, PAC Kamra, Chaklala, Mianwali, Risalpur. This is because of geography and PAF has made sure its main bases cover Rawalpindi, Isloo area

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby fanne » 10 Oct 2019 21:44

Yes in jk and chicken neck iaf has only few bases while paf has many

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby sajaym » 11 Oct 2019 15:02

fanne wrote:Yes in jk and chicken neck iaf has only few bases while paf has many


If this is the case, then IAF needs to activate some road mobile fighter detachments in these areas. Such a road mobile detachment should have 2 fighter jets stationed at the nearest Indian Army base (can also be 2 Hawk-i jets, operated by the Indian Army Aviation). These 2 jets can then be launched from the nearest road, when required. This whole Bison incident shows how much of a difference 2 jets can make if they appear quickly where required.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 11 Oct 2019 15:08

Not possible or practical, what IAF can do is use convert Airports like Gaggal Airport in HP into Miltary cum civilian airposts to house 8-10 aircraft with proper concerete shelters, this can address the shortfall in the area

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby fanne » 11 Oct 2019 16:28

Geography makes it harder. If you take jammu latitude. On India side Himalayas have already started. The ground on average is at 3k to 4K elevation, while on tsp side, it is still plane, almost at sea level.it is so for another 50-100 kilometer north and west.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 11 Oct 2019 18:37

Unless someone with first hand info chips in, a casual survey of all the stuff printed shows no presence of a DMG for the MiG-21 Bison.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 11 Oct 2019 21:42

I guess that's where lack of SDR / DMG and PAF radio jamming played a role in Wing Commander parachuting around 3-4 km accross the LOC.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby nam » 11 Oct 2019 23:15

Based on the location & direction of WC Abhi's Mig21, it was clear he was flying back. He obviously had an inkling that he was across the LC.

He may not have map generator, but obviously he knew how far the LC was from Srinagar AFB. He was going straight to interception, not flying around in CAP.

He knew he shot the F16 in PoK and he was flying back. So it is nonsense to believe, he went across PoK, because he was flying blind.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby nachiket » 11 Oct 2019 23:51

Aditya_V wrote:Not possible or practical, what IAF can do is use convert Airports like Gaggal Airport in HP into Miltary cum civilian airposts to house 8-10 aircraft with proper concerete shelters, this can address the shortfall in the area

One thing to note is that in a hot war, IAF will probably move additional assets to the forward airbases and would have many more aircraft available for mounting CAP's than there were on Feb 27.

They could not do that before the Balakot strikes in order to maintain the element of surprise. That was one reason the PAF responded immediately the next day because even a few days between the events might mean there are additional IAF assets available in the sector to counter them.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 11 Oct 2019 23:55

It was not a question of surprise IMHO. It was prudence. They did not have HAS to station other assets like Su-30s. That meant if they stationed these assets within the envelope of PAF's REKs and PA's Nasr type munitions, they were at risk. Once we get S-400, Barak-8, Akash in number plus sufficient HAS, this problem will be tackled. Even otherwise, in a hot war, IAF will surge assets to these areas, use the forward airbases to stage, and then withdraw the heavier assets deeper into India. The AD bubble provided by the SAM network will compensate for any perceived weakness in CAP for most AFB, bar those where terrain is an issue for SAMs.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby nachiket » 12 Oct 2019 00:12

Even if they had the HAS and adequate SAM's available, any increase in IAF activity, especially significant number of additional aircraft being surged forward cannot go unnoticed. The Feb 26 strikes may have gone differently if the PAF hadn't been caught off guard.

The intention was a cross-border strike without triggering war. If it had been an opening gambit of an all-out war, the IAF would be less concerned about achieving surprise and accepted a few losses in the strike package with more focus on outnumbering and outgunning the PAF.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 12 Oct 2019 00:16

What I am saying is the IAF can always surge aircraft forward once it has assets available to protect them. Till they dont have those assets, its very risky for them to station aircraft there for CAP. The Feb 26th strikes did not succeed merely because IAF landed up unannounced. They also succeeded because a large package of Su30s played spoiler and deliberately triggered the entire PAF AD network. Once that happened, the Mirages went ahead with their attack. Even otherwise, the IAF will seek to station as many aircraft as possible, deeper in India and then stage them ahead only for short periods.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby sudeepj » 12 Oct 2019 03:49

We are soon going to have a proliferation of SDB type weapons that can pass clean through a solid meter or two of concrete. Are HAS still relevant in this threat environment or they are like the forts on maginot line? I personally am not sure. May be the 'next gen' HAS are hard enough to stop even 1000lbers or 2000lbers.. If not, how to deny weapons launched from standoff ranges, guided by civil positioning signals and/or optical matching.. ?

Physical stationing of assets deep inside outside the range of attack can help. Another thing that may help is land based kashtan or phalanx to shoot out sdb/jdam types.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby srai » 12 Oct 2019 04:21

^^^
DRDO NG HAS can withstand direct hit by a 2000lb bomb.

IAF to get Next Generation Hardened Aircraft Shelters
The IAF now has a thumbs up to build 108 present day shelters to house fighter aircrfats in forward territories on India's northern outskirts when China has increase movement in the Tibet Autonomous Region, which neglects Arunachal Pradesh, Himachal Pradesh, Uttarakhand, Sikkim and Ladakh.

The Union Cabinet had recently allocated about Rs 5,500 crore for the project to build the Next Generation Hardened Aircraft Shelters (NGHAS)

NGHAS are specialised structures comprising layers of reinforced concrete, sand and steel. They can protect aircraft from direct hits by a 2,000-pound bomb.

Majority of these solidified safe houses will be intended to house the Russian made Su-30 MKi – the backbone of IAF's warriors.

Earlier IAF did not had defensive shelters to keep the Su-30Mki. NGHAS are not accessible for even the restricted quantities of aircraft that is available with the Service,"

IAF bases in the western sector have “blast pens”, which are supposed to protect aircraft from the effects of blasts in case of an attack. However, they can't give the protection as that of NGHAS

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 12 Oct 2019 10:48

I wish they hadnt mentioned the blast protection levels. Complete lack of understanding about Opsec from our babus. :|

Anyhow, there will be a layered defence around these bases. Akash can take out PGMs, but the true cost effective answer is a CIWS.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Mollick.R » 12 Oct 2019 16:24

srai wrote:^^^
DRDO NG HAS can withstand direct hit by a 2000lb bomb..................


the same news article is floating around from Jan 2019.

Link

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/eye-on-chinese-army-iaf-gets-nod-for-fighter-jets-shelters-on-border/story-ekjOLm2294wqpxirzSzlsK.html

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby srai » 12 Oct 2019 21:25

Karan M wrote:I wish they hadnt mentioned the blast protection levels. Complete lack of understanding about Opsec from our babus. :|

Anyhow, there will be a layered defence around these bases. Akash can take out PGMs, but the true cost effective answer is a CIWS.


That 2000lb is mentioned in the DRDO documentation as well.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 12 Oct 2019 22:28

Before that elsewhere as well. Can only hope disinfo, edited link.


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