MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

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Aditya_V
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 27 Feb 2020 11:54

That some of the strike information with a pinch of salt, IAF is still not talking about what was hit in Muzaffrabad and Chakoti. Obviously some of those 12 launched something there, cloud cover would have been uniform across the whole area.

Anyways 1 year has passed now

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby naird » 27 Feb 2020 20:50

Indranil wrote:This is not new! The Crystal Maze was not launched because target lock was not achieved due to inclement weather. This has been known for a few months now. ew-ACM Dhanoa said this in a previous interview. There are two regrets that he has. One is that he does not have video of the attack, thanks to not being able to launch the Crystal Maze. And 2) they did not use a warhead that demolishes the structures.


The fact that Crystal Maze was not launched is not the new data point. The new data point is the fact that 12 ships intruded into paki territory - six of them carrying Spice 2K and the other six having Crystal Maze.

We werent able to launch any Crystal Mazes due to inclement weather - which apparently based on articles has been rectified by tweaking :roll: firing protocols ! Whatever that means .

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby SidSoma » 27 Feb 2020 20:51

Latest confirmation of 3 Targets from N.K Sood. Although he goes on to Say they were additional terrorist camps



10:04

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby jandash00 » 27 Feb 2020 21:08

https://twitter.com/IAF_MCC/status/1233014678629937155?s=20

Can someone please make out the R/T audio ??

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby fanne » 27 Feb 2020 22:10

yes some one please

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 28 Feb 2020 00:21

SidSoma wrote:Latest confirmation of 3 Targets from N.K Sood. Although he goes on to Say they were additional terrorist camps



10:04


There is no link.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Cain Marko » 28 Feb 2020 09:49

naird wrote:
Indranil wrote:This is not new! The Crystal Maze was not launched because target lock was not achieved due to inclement weather. This has been known for a few months now. ew-ACM Dhanoa said this in a previous interview. There are two regrets that he has. One is that he does not have video of the attack, thanks to not being able to launch the Crystal Maze. And 2) they did not use a warhead that demolishes the structures.


The fact that Crystal Maze was not launched is not the new data point. The new data point is the fact that 12 ships intruded into paki territory - six of them carrying Spice 2K and the other six having Crystal Maze.
.

Not 12 ships saar, 15 altogether! Basically there were more IAF birds in TSP airspace than what TSPAF can muster on a bright day :)

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Cain Marko » 28 Feb 2020 09:54

naird wrote:
LakshmanPST wrote:https://indianexpress.com/article/india/air-chief-marshal-rks-bhadauria-balakot-strike-redefined-use-of-air-power-towards-meeting-national-objective-6286787/



Something tells me that ASTRA has been inducted in secrecy ! We have heard news about R27 - i think thats just a cover story.

My guess is that the enhanced BVR mijjiles are either - R77SD or R27ER (active variants). I-Derby is another remote possibility. Astra is being inducted - no news there but it is unlikely to give much more advantage than say, the R77. IIRC IAF bought 1000 russki missiles in 2019, post Balakot. 300 R73 + 300 R27 + 400 R77.

So much for a lack of confidence in its missile inventory!

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby fanne » 28 Feb 2020 10:17

long range BVR can be anything...Astra (enhanced) has already been inducted, per news not 50 but 250 (is that per year - total amraam for TSPAF is 500).
Astra enhanced per news is way better ranged than r-77 and equal or better than what the neighbor has. I hope we got some of those hush hush rusky missile that are BIG and ranged in 400 KM. I would however think that these are just different versions of e-27/77/73 ETC. (The range within these family and versions vary quite a lot).

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 28 Feb 2020 11:19



Some Interesting aspects of the article quoting former IAF Air Marshal C Hari Kumar, who headed the IAF's Western Command.

"It's not that we did not have adequate CAP. We had two sets of Su-30 CAPs next to Srinagar, two Mirage upgrade aircraft close to Udhampur and we had Operational Readiness Platforms (ORPs) all along. The moment it hit, two (MiG-21) bisons scrambled from Srinagar, MiG-29UPG scrambled from Udhampur, we had scrambles all along," he said.


This was not discussed before on BRF and 1 was unaware of it we now have an operational AFB at Kotli Bala in Udhampur, along with Pathankot, these 2 are probabaly our the most crucial AFB's since its right next to Sialkot/Shakargarh area

"It is just that they had used the time frame and moved in with large numbers. They never crossed IB nor the LoC. We could tackle them well. They dropped 11 bombs but none of them hit the target," he said.

11 Bombs with 4 H-4 Cruise Missiles- these I think we jammed thier guidance that day

hey did not succeed in hitting anything but they dropped so many weapons. They had the AMRAAMs. At that moment, he had the advantage of the first shot," he said


The one mistake, if we had modified ROE and fired our BVR when those F-16's were coming in at High speed and before they launched their missiles things would have been very different. But then again our action was so different on 26-Feb-19, we were in completely new territory and did not want to escalate easily.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby anishns » 28 Feb 2020 11:56

So if the crystal maze(popeye) bombs were used, there would have been a video feed like at 1:40 in the video. However, would this also have penetrated the structure like the SPICE?


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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Subin » 28 Feb 2020 12:54

I wonder why Wing Commander Yasir Shafique Malik (CO of PAF No 9 Squadron) and Squadron Leader Ahmad Sami (Winner of their last CCS trophy and also from No 9 Squadron) were not among the Op Swift Retort awardees. We know that the F16 shot down by Abhinandan was from No 9 Squadron and they had their best pilots flying them. Perhaps, it is because one or both of these pilots were flying the PAF F16 that was downed. Find out the location of these 2 pilots and you may end up busting Pakistan’s lies and finding out who was the Doosra Banda who died after being shot down.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 28 Feb 2020 13:03

Pakis will go to the extent of putting actors to fake their dead pilot, the fact they are making actors in episodes to Mock Abhinandan shows that they did not release him voluntarily but did it out of fear.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby SidSoma » 28 Feb 2020 22:24

Karan M wrote:
SidSoma wrote:Latest confirmation of 3 Targets from N.K Sood. Although he goes on to Say they were additional terrorist camps



10:04


There is no link.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePxeHVKLDGM



Woooopsie

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby samsher » 29 Feb 2020 10:21

Just saw this. Take it FWIW!

Pakistan Army Jawan Told The Facts About Abhinandan

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZ1YX9LqQ8w&t=226s


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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Barath » 29 Feb 2020 13:58

Pakistani video.

https://youtu.be/VaIr3JlYU88?t=1715

Shows mig21 wreckage. Claims to show elta , rwr and drop tanks on it

[Drop tanks on AB ?!]

For background, prasun sengupta (trishul/trident in apr 2019) talked about 50 elta spj for mig 21 bisons and small additional purchase nixed on grounds of low remaining airframe life

http://trishul-trident.blogspot.com/201 ... f.html?m=1

Air marshal masand had also asked about if ew was on the mig 21
http://www.indiandefencereview.com/news ... n-answers/


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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby chetonzz » 29 Feb 2020 18:23

Barath wrote:Pakistani video.

https://youtu.be/VaIr3JlYU88?t=1715

Shows mig21 wreckage. Claims to show elta , rwr and drop tanks on it

[Drop tanks on AB ?!]

For background, prasun sengupta (trishul/trident in apr 2019) talked about 50 elta spj for mig 21 bisons and small additional purchase nixed on grounds of low remaining airframe life

http://trishul-trident.blogspot.com/201 ... f.html?m=1

Air marshal masand had also asked about if ew was on the mig 21
http://www.indiandefencereview.com/news ... n-answers/


Self goal by PAF, in order to refute all objections by indian twitterati and experts like mr. joshi they have included drop tank from f16 in mig 21 wreckage...that thing was hurriedly taken away in truck and is no way similer to drop tanks used by mig21s all around the world during CAP...

https://youtu.be/NCaEcFWYvXw

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby AdityaM » 29 Feb 2020 22:24

Could this be the first video of 2 aircraft's falling from the sky

https://twitter.com/ridhamvyas3/status/ ... 60482?s=21


However the first object doesn't look like a plane shape.
The voices have no fear or shock. Just very normal sounding tone.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 01 Mar 2020 01:32

Cain Marko wrote: Astra is being inducted - no news there but it is unlikely to give much more advantage than say, the R77.


Astra makes the R77 look like an antique.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby chetonzz » 01 Mar 2020 07:31

AdityaM wrote:Could this be the first video of 2 aircraft's falling from the sky

https://twitter.com/ridhamvyas3/status/ ... 60482?s=21


However the first object doesn't look like a plane shape.
The voices have no fear or shock. Just very normal sounding tone.


Mr. Sameer Joshi has replied that 3 pieces are from Mig only on twitter...since the locations of two crashes are not that close as per video suggests...we should wait for future video “leaks” like this...i am sure some abdul has been hiding it on his phone or laptop fearing TSPA

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Cain Marko » 01 Mar 2020 07:55

Karan M wrote:
Cain Marko wrote: Astra is being inducted - no news there but it is unlikely to give much more advantage than say, the R77.


Astra makes the R77 look like an antique.

In range too? And even the newer variants purchased last year?

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby fanne » 01 Mar 2020 08:47

We keep on rehashing the same, and it is because we are ( at least I am) disappointed that the air battle did not yield at least 4 to 5 TSPAF downed plane for 0 loss of IAF planes. In my mind that is how strong the IAF is. And the reality is in a true air to air battle as in a full fledged war, it will be like this.
So if we IAF is way stronger than TSPAF, why did not Feb 27, 2019 battle had an outcome in line with that reality? And then to justify that IAF is still stronger than TSPAF, we start finding scapegoats or other reasons - 1) ROE 2)R-77 bad 3)Here is the proof we shot F-16 yada yada etc. etc. The alternative that TSPAF is stronger or par with IAF is something that we don't want to believe (and in reality it isn't, IAF is at least 4-5 times stronger than TSPAF).
A smaller force, or enemy can and will in a surprise move, attack first and can inflict damages on a much stronger adversary. Some 12-18 rag tag terrorists did that in nauegarah, against the mightiest force in the world, with 2 million serving personnel, 18 trillion economy and the biggest spying agency that was alert and looking for enemy (just like IAF was on 27 Feb). In AFG that happens whenever western forces get killed, a pre planned well laid ambush can do that. That does not make western army any less strong or capable.
On 27 Feb, TSPAF planned and at that time (it was less than 10 minute battle), it had numerical superiority and had a very good entry and exit plan (or fate would have it that way). For our own reason, we did not make that engagement bigger and prolonged (as we had achieved the goal, that is evident after an year of that engagement).
At the time of engagement we had 2 30MKI and 2 M2k on Patrol with some 8-10 BVR and 8-24 WVR missiles between them. TSPAF on other hand would have come with 64 BVR missile (4 per F-16, 16 of them, then some more on JF-17) AND 70-80 BVR. We had many planes on ORP and per report some 6 MIg 21 took to air in time (as did M29) and at least 2 made it to the area of engagement in time to stop TSPAF achieving any goal - all their dozen a to g weapon missed (as the targeting/designating plane were kept far by m2k or had to break designation as done by m21).
In spite of 24 to 4 numerical superiority at that time, TSPAF does not have much to show for it. There plan was always to shoot AIM 120, which they did and all were evaded. The only AIM (or whatever missile downed Abhi mig 21) was successful, but by that time, Abhi had maneuvered hard, downed a F - soolah was low on energy, easy for any plane to pick it up, if you are 7-8 in the area and opposing side is only 1 or 2.
R-77 was not unsuccessful (else we not fools to order $1 billion worth of these missile subsequent to it). The planes were never in range to either shoot R-77 or AIM 120 c, TSPAF had at least 6-7 times the number of BVR missile that time and decided to fire some of them(even to make MKI to maneuver hard, thus forcing it to take defensive instead of offensive maneuver). We were preserving our BVR missile for a real shot that never came about (Abhi shot a R-73 when he got an opportunity bringing down f-soolah). This does not make R-77 bad.
Neither IAF performed bad that day. All TSPAF ground offensive failed, because the 4 IAF planes held their ground, forced the enemy to be far away (so designation was inadequate), forced them to break designation (when IAF planes took offensive measures and M21 showed up), they lost one F-16 (agreed we do not have a smoking gun on that but enough 'other' evidence) to our one m21.
Only history can judge who was the winner that day. A year since that event let's see -
1. No major terrorist attack in JK or in Indian heartland. Remember that was matter of normal course since 1990 till 2016. An attack would have been very bad for NAMO and his party, yet that did not happen either to the run up of GE 2019 or there after
2.TSPAF locked it's air space for 6 months (don't know why, ostensibly to conserve aviation fuel and other related resources)
3.India orders more R-77, R-73 and R-27 (missiles that supposedly failed) and TSPAF gets the newer version of their A to G weapon from South Africa which according to them must have succeeded as they intentionally missed the targets.
4. There has been air skirmish since then, both sides scrambling planes, BUT, IAF has shot down some drones that crossed (TSPAF none) and there is rumor of attack on (of some kind) on a TSPAF base
5. Most importantly at Border, a war like situation has prevailed, IA has been performing slami slicing and punishing TSPA in a ratio of 20:1 in our favor. Biggest change has been preemptive strike on terrorist launching pad, intrusion into TSP territory, deeper targeting through artillery (reported as deep as 30 KM). This is not symptoms of a force that just lost an air battle and is vulnerable. We have destroyed TSP bunkers, forced them to abandone it and refusing them to come and reoccupy it. Brave and winning TSPAF is not seen to support TSPA.
6. TSP is still in dog house, Bharat is going places (not a symptom of a loosing side, just the opposite). The political objective of 26/27 feb 2019 has been achieved by India
7. TSP is trying to get back to us, now in different way (NE Delhi). That shall also be defeated. It cannot now defeat us in JK, or through terrorist attack (as all of these will have consequences, next time in similar air war, they could loose 5-6 planes), a newer way has been found. We should deport all TSpians staying through extended visas (given by samjhauta express chidambram and madam ji). These are nothing but EYEESEYE operatives, all of them without doubt. But 26/27 Feb, there was only 1 winner, we were!!

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby SidSoma » 01 Mar 2020 10:19

NaPAK has made 27th Feb a festival..... for us its just another day with only the media analysing the events of that day and listing the 'Lessons'. Ever heard any of the PAF talk anything about lessons?. We need an essay to prove to ppl that the victory was ours. I lament our mentality as a nation. This situation should have highlighted gaps in our AD, AWACS and we are scramming for Aircraft Carrier No 3. Where is Tejas, LCH, Arjun, Danush, Netra, ATAGS, LUH etc. NaPAK have embraced JF-17 what ever the reason.26th Feb we walked all over PAF. 27th Feb that day we were on par with a PAF but as a country hind sight has made it clear that we are winners

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Vivek K » 01 Mar 2020 10:40

We’ve not heard about what the two M2ks were doing while the MKIs were handling the AMRAAMs. But Feb 27 highlighted that the MKIs with their larger radar signature need to operate with missiles/radars that can detect and take out the enemy at longer ranges. The LCA with its smaller RCS would have caused the F16s to come in closer enabling the MKIs to engage.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby milindc » 01 Mar 2020 14:01

Don't know the veracity and also it is from Dalal Gupta's ThePrint. Apologies if posted earlier.

https://theprint.in/defence/not-much-ha ... an/371821/

From limitations of the Su 30 MKI radar to pick up enemy fighters properly to the technical issue faced by the Mirage 2000 aircraft over firing their Mica air-to-air missile, the list of the shortcomings that the IAF experienced is long.


The second Sukhoi too took tactical action keeping in mind that they were told by the Barnala-based Integrated Air Command and Control System (IACCS) that AMRAAMs were being fired.

The second Sukhoi had also failed to properly pick up the enemy fighters through its radars.

On the northern side of the Pir Panjal, the upgraded Mirages on CAP duty were outnumbered completely. They had also faced a technical glitch because of which they could not engage Pakistan Air Force (PAF) with the MICA air-to-air missiles that have a better range than the ones used by PAF in that sector.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby vishvak » 01 Mar 2020 14:42

Tech glitch etc doesn't do justice to the job done earlier by Mirage and Sukhoi 30s a say earlier or Russian jet + missile that hit on interception mission. More like given the results the preparations were more likely adequate than otherwise. Hopefully concerned people don't take bait and give out unnecessary info as reaction to anything.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby V_Raman » 01 Mar 2020 15:22

are the F16s that super duper airplanes? Then we should just get them IMO!

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 01 Mar 2020 15:41

milindc wrote:Don't know the veracity and also it is from Dalal Gupta's ThePrint. Apologies if posted earlier.

https://theprint.in/defence/not-much-ha ... an/371821/

From limitations of the Su 30 MKI radar to pick up enemy fighters properly to the technical issue faced by the Mirage 2000 aircraft over firing their Mica air-to-air missile, the list of the shortcomings that the IAF experienced is long.


The second Sukhoi too took tactical action keeping in mind that they were told by the Barnala-based Integrated Air Command and Control System (IACCS) that AMRAAMs were being fired.

The second Sukhoi had also failed to properly pick up the enemy fighters through its radars.

On the northern side of the Pir Panjal, the upgraded Mirages on CAP duty were outnumbered completely. They had also faced a technical glitch because of which they could not engage Pakistan Air Force (PAF) with the MICA air-to-air missiles that have a better range than the ones used by PAF in that sector.


This is not in agreement with what IAF personal present and former have said .This looks more like a MRCA 2 sales pitch.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 01 Mar 2020 17:28

Cain Marko wrote:
Karan M wrote:
Astra makes the R77 look like an antique.

In range too? And even the newer variants purchased last year?


Particularly in range. We have very little info on the variants purchased last year, whether they were new/old. If original, Astra outperforms them.
If new, likely matches them.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 01 Mar 2020 17:30

The 2nd Su-30 suffered an avionics outage, note radars are high voltage units, with the TWT being a single point of failure, which could be a reason. Stuff happens. The first Su-30 was still able to pick up the F16s and attempt to fire on them, albeit it couldn't because its missiles were outranged. This is the reason why the first Su-30 was considered so heavily - he stayed in the fight and repeatedly got so close to the Vipers that they broke off, the risk vs reward was dropping considerably. The Mirage 2000 issue seems plain wrong, copied from PAFs claims of the event. Its more likely the Mirages were conserving their shots vs a larger formation of JF/Mirages. Their EW was sufficient to force the JF/Mirage formation from closing in to launch their AAMs.


milindc wrote:Don't know the veracity and also it is from Dalal Gupta's ThePrint. Apologies if posted earlier.

https://theprint.in/defence/not-much-ha ... an/371821/

From limitations of the Su 30 MKI radar to pick up enemy fighters properly to the technical issue faced by the Mirage 2000 aircraft over firing their Mica air-to-air missile, the list of the shortcomings that the IAF experienced is long.


The second Sukhoi too took tactical action keeping in mind that they were told by the Barnala-based Integrated Air Command and Control System (IACCS) that AMRAAMs were being fired.

The second Sukhoi had also failed to properly pick up the enemy fighters through its radars.

On the northern side of the Pir Panjal, the upgraded Mirages on CAP duty were outnumbered completely. They had also faced a technical glitch because of which they could not engage Pakistan Air Force (PAF) with the MICA air-to-air missiles that have a better range than the ones used by PAF in that sector.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Bharadwaj » 01 Mar 2020 17:58

Karan M wrote:The 2nd Su-30 suffered an avionics outage, note radars are high voltage units, with the TWT being a single point of failure, which could be a reason. Stuff happens. The first Su-30 was still able to pick up the F16s and attempt to fire on them, albeit it couldn't because its missiles were outranged. This is the reason why the first Su-30 was considered so heavily - he stayed in the fight and repeatedly got so close to the Vipers that they broke off, the risk vs reward was dropping considerably. The Mirage 2000 issue seems plain wrong, copied from PAFs claims of the event. Its more likely the Mirages were conserving their shots vs a larger formation of JF/Mirages. Their EW was sufficient to force the JF/Mirage formation from closing in to launch their AAMs.




That is the great advantage the mki has in BVR despite the large rcs. The fuel fraction permits turning hot and cold at will till the smaller fighter has to head back home. If that mki had broken discipline and pressed the case when the vipers turned tail, there would have been a theesraa, chautha, panchva bandaa as well. That print article is well... less said the better.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 01 Mar 2020 18:00

Exactly. Note he was in the fight for almost half an hour at supersonic. Few other fighters can match that.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby MeshaVishwas » 01 Mar 2020 20:29

Just for WIW:
Here is "honest" 2Fail from the Fizzleya who many(incl. Dhoti shivering desis) consider to be an expert,talk about the Bison.
FF to 2:30 for the masterclass.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby fanne » 01 Mar 2020 20:59

BTw the above site looks like loaded with viruses that a 'normal' software will not catch.

I did not know that our Mig 21 supported ELTA radar and missiles (we got kopyos and r-73/r77). Was he talking about Romanian upgrades or has he taken to some good afgani stuff?

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby srai » 02 Mar 2020 16:50

IAF Su-30MKI pilots had plenty of practice against F-16s in friendly exercises. They knew how to break BVR lock. The PAF would have lost more F-16s had they not retreated.

Flying & fighting in the Sukhoi Su-30 ‘Flanker’: A pilot interview
“Another mission that stand out is a group combat mission that was pitching a Su-30 & one MiG-21 BISON against three F-16 . As luck would have it, the BISON did not get airborne and now the game was one Su-30 vs three F-16 in a BVR scenario. Again, we pushed the envelope, manoeuvred between 3000 ft to 32000 ft, pulling up to 8 g, turning, tumbling, firing and escaping missiles in a simulated engagement. The crew co-ord between us in the cockpit and the fighter controller on the ground was the best that I have ever seen! The results in a mock combat are always contentious but with ACMI, they are more reliable. End score one F-16 claimed without loss. When we got out of the cockpit we were thoroughly drenched in sweat and tired from the continuous high G manoeuvring but all smiles for the ecstasy that we had just experienced.”


Mock combat data turned out to be accurate! Very similar to what transpired in real life. Combo tactics with MiG-21 Bisons worked. They got in real close to be able to launch a CCM.

Karan M wrote:The 2nd Su-30 suffered an avionics outage, note radars are high voltage units, with the TWT being a single point of failure, which could be a reason. Stuff happens. The first Su-30 was still able to pick up the F16s and attempt to fire on them, albeit it couldn't because its missiles were outranged. This is the reason why the first Su-30 was considered so heavily - he stayed in the fight and repeatedly got so close to the Vipers that they broke off, the risk vs reward was dropping considerably. The Mirage 2000 issue seems plain wrong, copied from PAFs claims of the event. Its more likely the Mirages were conserving their shots vs a larger formation of JF/Mirages. Their EW was sufficient to force the JF/Mirage formation from closing in to launch their AAMs.


milindc wrote:Don't know the veracity and also it is from Dalal Gupta's ThePrint. Apologies if posted earlier.

https://theprint.in/defence/not-much-ha ... an/371821/




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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby ritesh » 02 Mar 2020 19:31

Vivek K wrote:We’ve not heard about what the two M2ks were doing while the MKIs were handling the AMRAAMs. But Feb 27 highlighted that the MKIs with their larger radar signature need to operate with missiles/radars that can detect and take out the enemy at longer ranges. The LCA with its smaller RCS would have caused the F16s to come in closer enabling the MKIs to engage.

The moot point then and even now is, "whether iaf has the political go ahead for such action"? If the answer is no, then we have learnt nothing from this engagement with advesary who is hell bent on our destruction.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby rohitvats » 02 Mar 2020 20:51

Has this been posted before?

https://www.theweek.in/theweek/specials/2020/02/28/hit-and-run.amp.html?__twitter_impression=true

Excerpts:

The exact date was left to the political leadership. February 26 was tentatively picked, though we knew we could get better weather two days later. The weather was marginal, with five western disturbances rolling in one after the other. Those who remember the National War Memorial inauguration on the evening of February 25 would recollect the thunder showers over Delhi after the event. The weather affected satellite imagery, which was needed to check on enemy deployment and defences.


Twenty Mirages were to be armed with multiple weapons; the upgraded Mirages carried six MICA missiles each. Six Mirages were armed with SPICE bombs and six with Crystal Maze surface-to-air missiles


Yet, we were certain that Pakistan would retaliate quickly. The next day, February 27, saw action from their side. Our air defence was on full alert; the AWACS was on station northeast of Adampur in the morning and so were the aircraft on combat air patrol. At 9:42am, the Integrated Air Command and Control Station warned of an increase in air activity over Pakistan. Fighters were launched from Kamra, Murid, Chander, Sargodha, Rafiqui and Jacobabad. They were at medium altitude, and some had their friend-or-foe identification on initially. That was a decoy—they were showing themselves on our radar to make it seem like routine activity; some aircraft tried to hide at low altitude. Some of these airfields are close to the border and fighters are routinely airborne for training. Unless hostile intent is seen, taking action would require a lot of effort.


Soon, PAF fighters regrouped and turned east for the attack. The first enemy package crossed the border in the Line of Control sector at 9:58am on the Akhnoor axis, and approached the LoC around 10:06am. Another package approached the Poonch axis, staggered by five to seven minutes. A third package was opposite Anupgarh sector.


Anupgarh mentioned above is most likely in Rajasthan. So, 3rd package was a decoy package.

Each package had eight to ten aircraft, supported by multiple combat air patrols, Saab 2000s and Dassault Falcon 20s for electronic support. On our side there were two upgraded Mirages on combat air patrol east of Udhampur, and two Su-30s near Srinagar. Two MiG-21 Bisons were scrambled in two lots (10:01am and 10:03am) from Srinagar, two Bisons from Awantipur, two MiG-29s from Adampur and two Su-30s each from Halwara, Bathinda and Jodhpur.


Launching Su-30 MKI from Halwara, Bhatinda and Jodhpur makes sense only if the aim was to intercept the 3rd package along Anupgarh axis.

This also shows that in any future shooting match with Pakistan, the PAF strike packages will be against a mix force of Mig-21 Bison/Tejas backed by Su-30 MKI.

The PAF ensured that they did not cross the International Boundary or the Line of Actual Control. Two MiG-21 Bisons, flown by Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman and Squadron Leader Vyas, were scrambled from Srinagar at 10:03am for the package on the Poonch axis. On reaching the sector, Abhinandan spotted enemy aircraft at low level, and the radar informed him that all aircraft to his west were hostile. He went for the target in contact on close combat mode with R-75 missiles.

The radar had asked the formation to turn back because of the threat developing on them. Vyas heard the call and turned around. Jammers prevented Abhinandan from getting the call. In the melee, it is presumed that the Bison shot down an F-16D, while breaking off from the attack.

The enemy dropped 11 weapons—two each at Kishan Ghati, Bhimber Gali (Hamirpur), Kesbowl and Tackundi Bowl, and one each at the 251 Ammunition Point in Rajouri and Bharat Gala—but could not cause any damage. The debris indicated use of H4 bombs (range 120km) and range extension kits (60km) on Mk-83 bombs.

Why did the weapons not cause damage? I see two reasons. One, the enemy was forced to turn back by IAF interceptors before weapon release. Or, they were not allowed effective follow-through. Five AMRAAM missiles were fired by the F-16. Debris of AMRAAM AIM-120C5 were picked up and shown on national TV at 7:30pm on February 28.

Why were such beyond-visual-range missiles ineffective? One theory is that PAF wanted to draw our air defence forces to a planned kill box without crossing the LoC and use their superior AMRAAM to get aerial kills. Since this ploy did not succeed, they launched their missiles at longer ranges. We simply defeated their superior weapons with superior manoeuvring.


There were many tactical lessons for us. One, the PAF’s superior beyond-visual-range missiles give them an advantage of first-shot capability with better kinematic range. Our planned induction of the Meteor missile with Rafale fighter jets would change that. Two, weather and mountains do impose physical limitations on aerial surveillance. Good and real-time intelligence will always be the most critical requirement in any conflict.

Three, communication jamming was a vulnerability. The IAF has been crying hoarse for years for securing communications and progressing the case for operational data link. The case has got traction now. Four, dominance in the electromagnetic spectrum will play a key role in future conflict. Five, clear rules of engagement are important in less-than-war situations. These rules need to be reviewed quickly. Seven, combatants need to be trained to quickly switch from peacetime rules to wartime activities.


The shooting down of our own Mi-17V5 helicopter is unpardonable. It was a combination of many mistakes, including personnel being trigger-happy at the first exposure to a conflict. The conflicts of 1965, 1971 and 1999 have shown that the maximum attrition for any air force is in the first three days of conflict, when we experience the ‘fog of war’. The US air force, which leads in combat experience, realised this over years of iteration. The main objective of the Red Flag exercise in the US is to train personnel in handling the first three days of combat with reduced attrition.


RULES OF ENGAGEMENT - Need modification.

With stand-off ranges increasing, involving air power for sub-conventional operations will open more windows of conflict and conflict resolution. Today’s rule is that military planes should not operate less than 10km from the border. At normal speeds, this distance can be covered in less than a minute. The issue gets compounded with induction of weapon systems which have assured stand-off ranges, like the Meteor missile (which has a range of more than 100km), SCALP (300km) or S-400 (380 km), with AWACS giving cross-border visibility of 450km. Thus, the fight could take place without crossing the border. We need to remember that it works both ways.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby naird » 02 Mar 2020 22:15



Fantastic article - some of the information was known before from interview of AM Hari Kumar.

What exactly does he mean by "Crystal Maze could not be fired due to procedural issues" ? Not understanding this statement. I am interpreting it as M2K was not able to fire since some parameters were not met ! Wasnt this tested before and doesnt the manufacturer come with a set of instructions or best practices ?

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Roop » 03 Mar 2020 06:53



Excellent article.

All things considered, from whatever is available in the public domain of after-action reporting from 27 Feb 2019, a clear pattern has emerged over the last year. My conclusions are these:

  1. Western (i.e. US/European/Israeli) avionics are clearly superior to their Russian counterparts, and vastly superior to their Chinese crap counterparts.
  2. IAF (and very likely the Army and Navy too) have a serious deficiency in secure voice/data communications. This is not some mystery that the military leaders were unaware of -- the article states IAF was screaming itself hoarse for a decade asking for this stuff, but didn't receive it. The implication is that various GoI's said "No, you have to make do with the khadi-gramudyog radios you have now". Why? Who the hell knows! The Indian mantri/babu complex often do the enemy's work for them. Recall how the babus shot-down IAF's efforts to buy 126 new Mirage 2000-5 fighters after the Kargil war.
  3. The RoE on Feb. 27 were totally inadequate for the situation. I don't know who is to blame for this, maybe "blame" is an inappropriate reaction, maybe it was a well-thought-out strategy of the Govt to avoid a general and widespread war. We'll never know.

It seems clear to me that Points 1 and 2 above (especially 1) explain the urgency of acquiring more Western fighters in these various bids (MMRCA, MMRCA ka baap, MMRCA ka beta). No one in his right mind is going to select a Russian platform any more. Indian platforms (Tejas / MWF / AMCA / LCH) will take a while to mature and start deliveries in quantity. Until then, it's either Western maal or start losing battles with Russian stuff.


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