MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby fanne » 03 Mar 2020 07:55

The moot point then and even now is, "whether iaf has the political go ahead for such action"? If the answer is no, then we have learnt nothing from this engagement with advesary who is hell bent on our destruction.


That is a very wrong conclusion at best and a blatantly mischievous one at worst

Let's see what steps GOI and IAF (and others) have taken so far (Since Feb 27)-
1. Every military leader present or retired had said that when and if there is another attack, air action will be repeated- guaranteed.
2.The political leadership has said the same thing repeatedly
3. That intent at least have been in display at LOC and IB. It has been hot and where we dominate (all of Neelam valley), we have blasted the Forward post and not let them be reoccupied. Additionally, preemptive strike on Terrorists and their launching pads are happening at regular interval. Short of actual war, this has been the hottest 1 year at LOC in the last 70 years. Heavy artillery have been used, up to ranges of 30 KM inside POK. Army has a totally free hand (they have themselves saying that ad nauseum ). This action has also been backed by frequent IAF caps.
4.370 has been removed, Two new entities created POJK and POL; for further action
5.$1 Billion worth of AA missile ordered and some/all delivered - We are primed for action right now
6. Political leadership/IAF firmly demanded that Rafale without Meteor in May 2020 is not acceptable, it has to come with that
7.SDR ordered (perhaps deliveries have also started)
8.Astra mk2 tested, inducted and order of 250 given (against token 50 earlier).
9.Brahmos induction into IAF concluded (all involved were taking their own sweet time, political leadership forced the issue)
10. Many other things that are out there and many that we do not know.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Philip » 04 Mar 2020 09:00

To carry on from Fanne's post ,here are some stats.

300 Ru AAMs have been ordered, R-27 R1/ ER1 and R-27 E1/ET1.
These Med.to LR AAMs have a range from 75km upto 100km.
The T1/ET1s have a range from 500M to 80km.
Meanwhile an order for 200 Astra is expected/ in the pipeline for the MKIs first.Later on they will be added to the list of other IAF combat aircraft.A 300km version is also planned.

Astra's given range is 100km head on and 20km in a tail chase.
This factor is often forgotten when ranges for AAMs,esp. BVR ones are discussed.In the post- Balakot air battle.PAF F-16s apparently launched their AMRAAMs at max range and then turned tail and scooted.
We are not aware of combat rules issued at that time for IAF fighters,whether it was OK to launch AAMs at PAF aircraft within their own airspace on contact when they were approaching IAF fighters, barring the aircraft that carried out the Balakot raid.My guess is that the GOI wanted Balakot to be the stern message and not escalate the raid into a wider conflict. Therefore, IAF AAMs,first taking measures to avoid the AMRAAMs, had fired at retreating Paki F- 16s,etc., would have encountered vastly reduced ranges of their BVR AAMs to around 25km only in a tail chase.

In any future air clash with the PAF ,Paki tactics to " shoot and scoot", may not save them as the order to carry on the battle in Paki airspace may be the order of the day.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Gagan » 05 Mar 2020 11:56

Philip ji
One major nitpick in your post above.
The Paqistani F-16s did not launch the AMRAAMs at max range. They were quite close and just outside the no escape zones of these missiles.
Yet they were unable to shoot down even one IAF plane, all thanks to the tactics, maneuvers employed by the Su-30 pilots, ably guided by their controller.

What makes this feat of the IAF pilots even more impressive is listed below:
At the point of launch, it is unlikely that an enemy aircraft is aware that the missiles has been launched, often only when it switches on its radar at terminal guidance is the target aircraft aware.


WgCo Varthaman being shot down is the only success they had that day, but they paid a huge price in the form of a modern plane and a pilot lost in the bargain, while WgCo Varthaman, sipped tea, saw them fawning over him - those bloody kammis that they are, and came back home, rejoined service, and will be again ready to swat a few more of them if there is another chance :lol:

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Prem » 05 Mar 2020 12:09

There is twitter rumor of Syrian Su 24 today escaped AMRAAM launched by by Turkish F-16 .

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Philip » 05 Mar 2020 18:01

Tx. Gagan.No,I did not give any distance at which they launched their missiles,but it most probably have been within their own airspace otherwise our aircraft would've attacked an intruderIs there any open source into about ghe engagement ranges of the battle?

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby John » 05 Mar 2020 19:08

Prem wrote:There is twitter rumor of Syrian Su 24 today escaped AMRAAM launched by by Turkish F-16 .

They lost one yesterday to F-16 AMRAAM right?

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 05 Mar 2020 19:11

The PAF guys took advantage of the ROE and positioned themselves in a manner they had the height, speed advantage, and fired from behind the LoC. Peacetime ROE were in place. We couldn't open fire until they crossed the LoC. They had no such qualms.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Rsatchi » 05 Mar 2020 19:26

Karan M wrote:The PAF guys took advantage of the ROE and positioned themselves in a manner they had the height, speed advantage, and fired from behind the LoC. Peacetime ROE were in place. We couldn't open fire until they crossed the LoC. They had no such qualms.

But Karanji
What I fail to understand is this peacetime ROE!! :roll:
We have crossed the border(international) not LOC and hit three locations(yet not talk of the two other sites) and yet follow 'Rajdharma' :eek:

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby habal » 05 Mar 2020 19:32

John wrote:
Prem wrote:There is twitter rumor of Syrian Su 24 today escaped AMRAAM launched by by Turkish F-16 .

They lost one yesterday to F-16 AMRAAM right?

that was an L-39aero.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Manish_P » 05 Mar 2020 19:38

Philip wrote:..In any future air clash with the PAF ,Paki tactics to " shoot and scoot", may not save them as the order to carry on the battle in Paki airspace may be the order of the day.


I might have misread or misunderstood it, but i seem to recollect there were some enigmatic posts on twitter by ex IAF guys, soon after the engagement, that the IAF powers had noted and tweaked the SOPs, since they fully expect such occurrences (our strikes on the terrorists and the PAF H&D response) in the future. I think Karan ji had mentioned it on this thread also.

In the twitter exchange, the ex IAF guys had mentioned that even after any such tweaking of the ROE, the IAF being a very professional & disciplined force would take extra care, since they expect that the uniformed jihadis might well try their next response close to and in the presence of International flights. One ex IAF pilot had also mentioned that PAF might also fly their transport aircraft or even order PA aircraft in the AO skies, in the hope that the IAF will not take the risk.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby banrjeer » 06 Mar 2020 00:02

AdityaM wrote:Could this be the first video of 2 aircraft's falling from the sky

https://twitter.com/ridhamvyas3/status/ ... 60482?s=21


However the first object doesn't look like a plane shape.
The voices have no fear or shock. Just very normal sounding tone.


Trying to localize the dialect.
One guys keeps asking kithey tithey? (where there?) ? Is the this the norm in panjabi? In Hindi the order is opposite pretty strict... wahan kahan? (there where?). In Bengali the ordering is less strict but similar to Hindi. It's reversed when expressing incredulity but not often.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 06 Mar 2020 02:20

Rsatchi wrote:
Karan M wrote:The PAF guys took advantage of the ROE and positioned themselves in a manner they had the height, speed advantage, and fired from behind the LoC. Peacetime ROE were in place. We couldn't open fire until they crossed the LoC. They had no such qualms.

But Karanji
What I fail to understand is this peacetime ROE!! :roll:
We have crossed the border(international) not LOC and hit three locations(yet not talk of the two other sites) and yet follow 'Rajdharma' :eek:


This was the first time after 1971, the IAF crossed the border. Also, the first time, after Pak went nuclear. Understand the gravity of the situation.
We escalated and then wanted a de-escalation, on our terms, but at the same time, not spark off a full-scale war. Hence, IAF ROEs were still under the earlier clause. Once we saw the Pakis broke them, we changed.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 06 Mar 2020 02:29

naird wrote:


Fantastic article - some of the information was known before from interview of AM Hari Kumar.

What exactly does he mean by "Crystal Maze could not be fired due to procedural issues" ? Not understanding this statement. I am interpreting it as M2K was not able to fire since some parameters were not met ! Wasnt this tested before and doesnt the manufacturer come with a set of instructions or best practices ?


They didn't have a clear LOS to the target. Cloud cover. The procedure likely asks for a clear LOS. Having said that, the Popeye has always been a troubled system in the past, supplanted by Delilah, the SPICE is heavily used by IDFAF. We also had issues with CM and had them resolved by the Israelis. Point being its not an easy system to deploy.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby naird » 06 Mar 2020 03:46

Karan M wrote:
naird wrote:
Fantastic article - some of the information was known before from interview of AM Hari Kumar.

What exactly does he mean by "Crystal Maze could not be fired due to procedural issues" ? Not understanding this statement. I am interpreting it as M2K was not able to fire since some parameters were not met ! Wasnt this tested before and doesnt the manufacturer come with a set of instructions or best practices ?


They didn't have a clear LOS to the target. Cloud cover. The procedure likely asks for a clear LOS. Having said that, the Popeye has always been a troubled system in the past, supplanted by Delilah, the SPICE is heavily used by IDFAF. We also had issues with CM and had them resolved by the Israelis. Point being its not an easy system to deploy.


Thanks Karan. If its LOS based , then theoretically if fighters were to go further into Paki heartland and dipped below the clouds then they should have been able to release this weapon ! Am i right ? Assuming in that case LOS could have been 30 KM rather than the mission profile of LOS = 60 KM.
Ofcourse it compromises the mission - so practically not doable.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 06 Mar 2020 04:28

You can't do that if the clouds are right above the target.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Philip » 06 Mar 2020 07:07

That is what we often forget ( Karan's point), that the Paki's care a damn about the Geneva Convention, peacetime protocols, diplomatic etiquette,et al.

Unabashed terrorism,attacking the Indian parliament,Bombay terror, butchering millions in E.Pak,especially unspeakable atrocities against Hindu women, beating up diplomats,fake currency printers,hiding Osama-you name it they do it, is the true DNA of a Paki.That's why we should NOT play the game against Pak by the international rules.Expect the unexpected from them and dish out the same a thousand times more ruthlessly.
It is only when the backsides of the Paki army roast in the flames and they feel the excruciating pain do they plead for mercy. The next time round we should exercise many more Balakoots across the length and breadth of Pak.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Rakesh » 06 Mar 2020 09:57

https://twitter.com/sidspin/status/1235 ... 10048?s=20 ---> During Kargil, IAF had BVR advantage. Why was it let go? Why nobody paid heed to it? Su-30, with all its might, was outranged by PAF's AMRAAMs.

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/12356 ... 91936?s=20 ---> There are enough uneducated debates doing the rounds on this-versus-that subject. As should be expected, IAF tactics adequately cater to long range, medium range & short range missiles on adversarial aircraft. Book figures don't govern victory or defeat in combat. Tactics do.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Rakesh » 06 Mar 2020 10:01

Something clearly evident at Balakot....

https://twitter.com/a473629/status/1235 ... 99840?s=20 ---> I know that Astra is one of the best in our inventory. But our adversary has AIM 120 . We need to outgun them. That's my point.

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/12356 ... 49856?s=20 ---> No! This is completely misunderstood. Abstract Ex - think about it. police gun range = 100 meters, but thief's gun range = 120 meters. Will this be reason enough for the thief to be allowed to escape? No. There's all kinds tactics. For policing, as also, for air combat.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby MeshaVishwas » 06 Mar 2020 10:31

Very good watch. ACM's sense of humour and comic timing is PERFECT!


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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 06 Mar 2020 10:51

rohitvats wrote:Has this been posted before?

https://www.theweek.in/theweek/specials/2020/02/28/hit-and-run.amp.html?__twitter_impression=true

E

[

The PAF ensured that they did not cross the International Boundary or the Line of Actual Control. Two MiG-21 Bisons, flown by Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman and Squadron Leader Vyas, were scrambled from Srinagar at 10:03am for the package on the Poonch axis. On reaching the sector, Abhinandan spotted enemy aircraft at low level, and the radar informed him that all aircraft to his west were hostile. He went for the target in contact on close combat mode with R-75 missiles.

The radar had asked the formation to turn back because of the threat developing on them[b]. Vyas heard the call and turned around. Jammers prevented Abhinandan from getting the call[/b]. In the melee, it is presumed that the Bison shot down an F-16D, while breaking off from the attack.

.




I have a small difference of opinion here. below is Wing Commander Abhinandan shoot down video from Mirpur Pakistan



You can see Squadron Leader Vyas has turned around his Bison at 18 secs thats a good 25 seconds after Abhinandan shoot down and and 1:16 sec you can see an Amraam Launch by a F-16 at Squadran leader Vyas who was retreating with Full afterburner. why did not the F-16 which fired at Abhinandan fire at Squadron Leader Vyas? I think the Block 30/50/52 F-16's all have the ability to guide 2 AMraam at 2 targets at a time.

The radar images put out by IAF also show both Mig 21 Bisions together?

Now look at the video of the F-16 shot down from Thanamandi in J&K, you can see a missile going away from it.



Incredible as it seems, is it Possible that the last act of the F-16 which was shot down was to Launch the Amraam at Wing Commander Abhinandan after they were hit by the R-73, that could possibly why the Wing Commander got hit.

There were reports and videos of a Mid Air dogfight where the F-16 was climbing( was on republic world TV), so basically while 2 F-16's were escaping the one of them decided to to do a dog fight got shot down but took down Wing Commander Abhinandan?

Squadron Leader Vyas is asked to turn back and then another F-16 comes with full afterburners and this Amraam is found in Reasi district J&K

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 06 Mar 2020 11:01

Here is one of the mobile dogfight videos



Its looks more like the F-16 which went down let the Amraam before the pilots bailing out on the Wing Commanders Mig 21 Bison which was not anticipated.

which means that a lucky shot from F-16 going down is what saved the H&D for Pakistan that day?

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby vishvak » 06 Mar 2020 11:14

Strange how to define luck in warfare. All the signal jamming meant that MiG 21 didn't get message to turn back and ended up in dogfight bringing down F-16.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 06 Mar 2020 11:17

Look this Signal Jamming might be IAF ruse to finally get the funding for Sotware defined radios which were put on the back burner. But that Pakistani Pilot probably lost his life cause he delayed bailing out till he fired his AMRAAM, a brave act for a cowardly nation- which neither acknowledges his sacrifice or his Kill.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby srai » 06 Mar 2020 12:05

^^^

That F-16 was shooting at the second MiG-21. He got surprised by the R-73 from Abhi’s MiG-21. That shot probably saved the second MiG-21.

Image

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Prasad » 06 Mar 2020 12:31

Aditya_V wrote:Look this Signal Jamming might be IAF ruse to finally get the funding for Sotware defined radios which were put on the back burner. But that Pakistani Pilot probably lost his life cause he delayed bailing out till he fired his AMRAAM, a brave act for a cowardly nation- which neither acknowledges his sacrifice or his Kill.

Too many varied sources within IAF who confirm comm-jamming to not take it seriously anymore though. Besides SDR has been on the IAF plans for eons and is moving glacier-like.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 06 Mar 2020 12:45

Rakesh wrote:Something clearly evident at Balakot....

https://twitter.com/a473629/status/1235 ... 99840?s=20 ---> I know that Astra is one of the best in our inventory. But our adversary has AIM 120 . We need to outgun them. That's my point.

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/12356 ... 49856?s=20 ---> No! This is completely misunderstood. Abstract Ex - think about it. police gun range = 100 meters, but thief's gun range = 120 meters. Will this be reason enough for the thief to be allowed to escape? No. There's all kinds tactics. For policing, as also, for air combat.


Guys like this Punit chap should do their research. We are lucky HVT is patient enough to answer.
You have the CAS openly stating Astra is equivalent to the Slammer C-5 and AM rtd SP Sinha saying its marginally superior. Yet, HVT gets asked all this.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 06 Mar 2020 13:48

srai wrote:^^^

That F-16 was shooting at the second MiG-21. He got surprised by the R-73 from Abhi’s MiG-21. That shot probably saved the second MiG-21.



But still pulled the trigger on the Amraam before bailing out

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby srai » 06 Mar 2020 14:22

^^^
You got that from a hazy video? For all we know the AMRAAM could have already launched (and what you seeing is just the smoke trail). Although It could be probable that the R-73 hit and the AMRAAM launch happened very close to each other. I doubt the pilot tried to launch after he was hit. Not very probable.

Check out this footage of a AAM hitting a drone. Precious few seconds to punch out if lucky.
Image

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 06 Mar 2020 14:42

The clue is look at Alpha-2 he takes the turn well after Wing Commander Abhinandan aircraft was hit, if another F-16 had hit Wing Commander they would have targeted Squadron leader Vyas immediately, but you can see after the Wingman turns in the North East direction and 1 minute gap anther fighter is firing a missile, thats a good 90 Seconds after Wing Commander has been hit, the other F-16 is launching its Amraam. That means no other F-16 was in a position to hit Squadron Leader Vyas between Wing Commander being hit till about 90 Seconds.

So it looks like the F-16 which went down fired the Amraam which hit Wing Commander. Yes the R-73 has a pretty powerful warhead. 1 Pilot died from burn injuries at ACH Rawalpindi and the curious case of missile moving away from the crashing fighter in the Thanamandi video- which is clearly different aircraft from the crashing aircraft in the Mirpur video. If the F-16 which went down was a twin seater and if as explained in SHiv@bennedose video on twitter the 2nd pilot bailed out late and got caught Aircraft parachute, its possible he was the one firing the Amraam and his split second decision to fire the Amraam and then bail out might have caused him his life.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby srai » 06 Mar 2020 15:02

^^^
You might want to read a very detailed analysis by Sameer Joshi:
8 pieces of clinching evidence that show how IAF’s Abhinandan shot down a Pakistani F-16

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 06 Mar 2020 15:37

Yes I have read that and much what I have learnt has come from Sameer Joshi's inputs , the only point of dispute is when Squadron Leader Vyas turned away- you can see even in the referenced articles radar images both IAF Aircraft are together and across the LOC. Even when the F-16 marked 316Z is going missing the 2 blue triangles seem to be close together. Even in the IAf presentation with Radar images it shows both were together.

The Mirpur Video shows one aircraft from close to Abhinandan engaging afterburners and then turnign away and approximately 1 minute later another aircraft is coming and targeting it with a AMRAAM, what is the distance covered by a Mig 21 Bison on afterburners - 20-22KM? So this was the Amraam which was retrieved from Reasi district.

Out of group 3 F-16's 1 dropped the the LGB on Brigade HQ Nowshera .

Quote from the article

Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman crossed over to PoK sometime after 1020 hours, flying at 0.9 Mach at an altitude of 15,000 feet. He spotted targets on his Kopyo radar in search mode at 30–35 km, higher at 30–35,000 feet. He switched to close combat (CC) mode on course 290 (deg) and sweeped (cover a specified Field of View from the nose) the area ahead to pick anything closer. He was climbing. His approximate position is as shown in the radar picture shared by the Indian Air Force.

As Abhinandan was looking for targets in CC mode, he got a missile seeker head lock. Important to note, it was not a radar assisted Lock, but a missile head Lock — which picked up a heat emitting target out to 30 km within its 30 deg field of view.

Abhinandan fired his missile while on course 280 at 20,000 feet, turning northwards and finally settling down on an eastern heading towards Jhangar in J&K for a getaway.


Abhinandan launched a R-73 missile on a heading of 280–290 degrees at 20,000 feet after the missile head locked onto a target in frontal quarters. Since the radar was in close combat (CC) search mode at that time, the aircraft being tracked by the R-73 would not have got any Lock ON chirp on its radar warning receiver (RWR). Neither does the R-73 missile give any approach warning while using passive guidance. The PAF aircraft, targeted by the IAF MiG-21, was NOT aware that a R-73 missile had been fired against it.
The R-73 seeker could have locked on to two PAF jets, one at north edge and the other at the bottom edge of the Mangla reservoir. The blip at the north edge, which subsequently vanished from the scope was flying at Mach 1+ at 32,000 feet.


rom Abhi’s last plotted position to the calculated position of the ‘puff’ is a distance of 20 km. The R-73 would have covered this distance + distance required during the proportional navigation ‘lead pursuit’ trajectory. Assuming max 2–3 km deviation for this trajectory from point to point navigation with a non-manoeuvring, supersonic speed F-16 in the R-73’s frontal quarters, passing left to right and descending. So, the R-73 covered approx 22 km to the ‘puff’ location. The F-16’s trajectory actually benefits the R-73 in adjusting a steady (greater) lead ahead and bleeds lesser energy. Reverse calculating, we get time of flight of R-73 to ‘puff’ location at an average speed of 612 m/s at 35 seconds.


About 45–50 seconds after his R-73 launch and about 7 km inside PoK, the MiG-21 was hit by an AMRAAM fired by a PAF F-16.


The report mentions ~45 seconds gap between launch of R-73 missile to the Wing Commander being hit, given a 22KM aerial separation, the R-73 to hit the F-16, Amraam by the F-16 hits the Mig 21-bison is possible. I stand corrected the F-16 probably launched its AMRAAM at Wing Commander while the passively Launched R-73 missile was coming towards it.

The fact that both the aircraft were separated by a gap of around 25Km was the reason why there was no single video of both of them going down together.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby ranjan.rao » 06 Mar 2020 17:00

Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/sidspin/status/1235 ... 10048?s=20 ---> During Kargil, IAF had BVR advantage. Why was it let go? Why nobody paid heed to it? Su-30, with all its might, was outranged by PAF's AMRAAMs.

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/12356 ... 91936?s=20 ---> There are enough uneducated debates doing the rounds on this-versus-that subject. As should be expected, IAF tactics adequately cater to long range, medium range & short range missiles on adversarial aircraft. Book figures don't govern victory or defeat in combat. Tactics do.

rakesh ji i presume you are active on twitter...may i request you to please check if these are recently created accounts pakis have habit of creating such fake a/cs to support their narratives and they prefer to do it by hindu names...quite sometime back they were in habit of Indian army guys with fake profiles..

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Rakesh » 07 Mar 2020 04:01

ranjan, please no ji for me :)

Twitter is filled with fake accounts courtesy of Pakis. The entire Pak state is built on falsehoods and lies. Twitter is just one modern aspect of it. Lying to their people (and to themselves) is something they have mastered even prior to independence.

I reproduced the tweet because HVT Sir responded. The lesson to learn is from HVT Sir's tweet. Question is irrelevant to me, the answer is where the real info is. But I posted the question so that there is a continuity - for readers on BRF - from question to answer.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Rakesh » 07 Mar 2020 04:06

Karan M wrote:
Rakesh wrote:Something clearly evident at Balakot....

https://twitter.com/a473629/status/1235 ... 99840?s=20 ---> I know that Astra is one of the best in our inventory. But our adversary has AIM 120 . We need to outgun them. That's my point.

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/12356 ... 49856?s=20 ---> No! This is completely misunderstood. Abstract Ex - think about it. police gun range = 100 meters, but thief's gun range = 120 meters. Will this be reason enough for the thief to be allowed to escape? No. There's all kinds tactics. For policing, as also, for air combat.


Guys like this Punit chap should do their research. We are lucky HVT is patient enough to answer.
You have the CAS openly stating Astra is equivalent to the Slammer C-5 and AM rtd SP Sinha saying its marginally superior. Yet, HVT gets asked all this.

Karan, well said. What is surprising to me is not what happens on twitter...but rather on BRF.

Now the thing is to get longer range missiles, because the JF-17/PL-15 combo will make the Rafale/Meteor combo null and void :roll: :lol:

The folks who argue for this on BRF are usually the ones who push for F-15, F-21 and F-18. Just saying :)

Now the fantasy is to get AIM-260 on F-21, F-18 or F-15 :mrgreen:

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 07 Mar 2020 04:38

The PL-15 is a pure play solid motor, not a ramjet chaser like the Meteor.
The Rafale RCS + Spectra + RBE-2 is still a first look advantage for the Rafale.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Cain Marko » 07 Mar 2020 05:28

IAF IMVHO had a bvr edge even during the post balakot episode, just didn't use it because of roe. And once the tspaf till their shots, iaf had no choice but to defend. They could have easily counter attacked and wiped the floor with the solahs but this would mean escalating the situation considerably, possibly pursuing into Pakistan itself.

Rest assured if Paf had such an edge, they wouldn't have stopped at one half baked attack. When have they ever not pressed an advantage?

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby brar_w » 07 Mar 2020 05:36

Rakesh wrote:
Now the fantasy is to get AIM-260 on F-21, F-18 or F-15 :mrgreen:


Given that the Aim-120D has only been cleared to 5 eyes partners and that it may be opened up to additional NATO and non NATO FMS customers with F-35 block 4, it is highly unlikely that the JATM is exported (to anyone) before the early 2030s. It is not an AMRAAM replacement and is likely to be a niche weapon in terms of inventory.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 07 Mar 2020 08:41

Cain Marko wrote:IAF IMVHO had a bvr edge even during the post balakot episode, just didn't use it because of roe. And once the tspaf till their shots, iaf had no choice but to defend. They could have easily counter attacked and wiped the floor with the solahs but this would mean escalating the situation considerably, possibly pursuing into Pakistan itself.

Rest assured if Paf had such an edge, they wouldn't have stopped at one half baked attack. When have they ever not pressed an advantage?

+1

Look at PAF actions

1) Closing Airspace for 5 months, making Lahore Karachi flights to hug the Western Border at great cost

2) Ignoring repeated IAF movements close to the LOC, PA Army tanks initially even left their barracks and mixed with civilians

3) Keeping quiet after 5 Aug-19.

If the PAF had any kind of edge none of these would have happened and they would have come back for more action rather than paying Mani Shankar Aiyar Son in Law Vipin Narang and Lara Schelligan et al to write reports.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Rishi » 07 Mar 2020 15:55

For some reason IAF is silent and people on this board who interacted with WCo Abhi on this board are silent. FWIW this action made us aware of PAF full spectrum EW capabilities and that itself is worth its weight in gold.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby fanne » 07 Mar 2020 17:43

Aditya_V wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:IAF IMVHO had a bvr edge even during the post balakot episode, just didn't use it because of roe. And once the tspaf till their shots, iaf had no choice but to defend. They could have easily counter attacked and wiped the floor with the solahs but this would mean escalating the situation considerably, possibly pursuing into Pakistan itself.

Rest assured if Paf had such an edge, they wouldn't have stopped at one half baked attack. When have they ever not pressed an advantage?

+1

Look at PAF actions

1) Closing Airspace for 5 months, making Lahore Karachi flights to hug the Western Border at great cost

2) Ignoring repeated IAF movements close to the LOC, PA Army tanks initially even left their barracks and mixed with civilians

3) Keeping quiet after 5 Aug-19.

If the PAF had any kind of edge none of these would have happened and they would have come back for more action rather than paying Mani Shankar Aiyar Son in Law Vipin Narang and Lara Schelligan et al to write reports.


The most important one they returned Abhi in 48 hours- not the sign of an enemy that had an edge or winning but of one that was very afraid


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