MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Gyan » 24 Apr 2020 20:15

Anyway, I dont want push a point by repeating it. If we don't want to accept that there were mistakes & present procurement is not about becoming battle worthy but only about buying the most costly junk, then I cannot prove it, even if I show pics of K9s or T90s. Did we order more T90s after 27th Feb? Are we going to buy crap Mig 29s old hulls while delaying LCA MKIA?

Off course, on Meteor issue, I also don't believe that for so much money Frenchies won't have integrated Meteor if we had put our foot down. At that time, in 2012, they would have sold their mother. Also it's a NATO weapon which is inherently easy to integrate with NATO platform. Mirage 2000 cost was 83% OF NEW aircraft.

But anyway, Dhanoa did himself say we did badly at perception battle. Short sharp conflicts are always perception battles. So ACM says......? He is also wrong?

If Pak population thinks our strike failed then actually we failed. All Pakis privately admit that they were smashed in Kargill but here we have let them win perception battle. No one, including foreign observers believe we hit and killed 300 jihadists.

Incidentally, everyone now conveniently forgets about other 2 rumored targets. Why? No one in IAF wants to repeat calculated words?

Now except for Rafale, how has IAF improved since 27th Feb? So IAF is a useless defensive force? With no options? Except praying for Rafales? Do we still need IAF or should it be in lockout till 36 Rafales are delivered? Or we should just use Rafales, and give up rest of Airforce? How many Meteors we ordered? 100? So whole of India is dependent on these 100 missiles which we will get? When? 2022?

If PAF, does same thing, will we again let them fire 18 missiles? While watching & celebrating that we escaped?

ACM Dhanoa says, that we should have shot down 4-5 aircraft to obtain moral ascendency. So, did our Air Controllers panick? What was the plan to shoot down 4-5 aircraft? By retreating? Or by waiting for Meteor?


It was an across the board list of deficiencies on 27th Feb:-

Less AWACS
NO VLR BVR
Comms Jammed, no SAT Comms on fighters
Self defense Jammers not available on all Fighters
IFF integration or operational problems, Mi-17
Absense of MAAWS, & automatic Chaff & flare dispensers
Poor data link capability and Situational Awareness
Bad Air Control guidance, allowing PAF CAPs to be higher than us, when we approached for interception. So they could shoot down, while our missiles lacked range to snap up.

Will importing 30 year old Mig29s going to solve these problems? Or perhaps if we order more Apache?

Was there anything left that did not go wrong? PAF fired at us, we ran away. This is an achievement???? After preparing for 18 years? 100s of Excercises with foreign airforces ? Did we learn any lessons on those Excercises? Or they were Only picnic outings?

As per Interviews posted we have been preparing for such an operation since 2002. This was the preparation??? Leaks about need to Buy more Hawks for Air Display and desperation for more Pilatus? Why did we not use C-17s, IAF costliest purchase? After all that was IAF priority or mine? Another priority C-295!

PAF adopted the most basic tactical maneuver. Air Escort Fighters at high altitude CAPs. They would accelerate & shoot down any aircraft that tries to intercept CAP Or Strike force. Strike force came in low. PAF did what was anticipated in Broad day light, in most anticipated manner, with huge amount of advance warning, short of calling up IAF HQ. This is a standard tactic used since WW1 and even in Iraq Iran war.

12 PGMs and 6 AMRAAMs fired by PAF. IAF did nothing except, escape. Abhinandan fired one R-73 seemingly against orders by going inside Pak. If he had heard Air Controller, he also would have returned.

We need to start questioning our Military leaders. Bravery in Ranks vs Capability as General Staff are TWO different things. For long, mistakes in General Staff is blamed on politicians. Whether we buy X OR Y, Politican can get same % of bribe but General Staff has to tell the politicians or babu what's important procurement

Since 1996, procurement has been aimed at diverting our limited resources into useless stuff. Aim of this post was not a general critique of feb, 27 but criticism of procurement priorities & yes! Of General Staff ( not politicians).

General Staff did not anticipate a politician, who will ask them to do something. They are used to not doing anything. Frontal assaults by young Army Ranks is not an achievement of General Staff.

But it seems, no change since 27th Feb. If Another strike is ordered by Modi tomorrow, what will ACM Say? Let's wait for Meteor devataa? Or perhaps we can ask Pakistan not to provoke us till Meteorji comes. General Staff will remain busy till then giving interviews & blocking LCAMKIA
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Gyan » 24 Apr 2020 20:16




I said deployed together, evidently Chaff and flares are two different things. Even if cartridges are separate, RWR would be firing them together. Unless, our RWR is sophisticated enough,and it can fired separately, then there is new technology available with us, which I am not aware about.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby khan » 24 Apr 2020 20:39

Gyan - if past is prologue, you are about to be ripped a few new ones.

But let’s consider:

- Why is it abnormal for the aggressor to have localized air superiority for a short period of time, when they are the ones who decide when & where?

- The Pakistani’s decided to waste some AMRAAMS, the SU-30’s could have also fired dummy shots (this is independent of range - anyone can fire a dummy shot) - but IAF did evasive maneuvers & stayed on station protecting the target (which did not get hit). If s**t had really hit the fan, the Pakistanis would have really regretted wasting those AAMRAMS. IAF had to assume that Pakistani’s were going to fight it out & not run away like they did.

- you are completely missing the fact that the Pakistani’s lost an F-16 for a Mig-21, when they had numerical superiority.

- the range disparity between AMRAAM & R-77 can be easily overcome with numerical superiority in both number of aircraft & number of missiles per aircraft (which IMO roughly gives IAF something like an 8-1 edge in all out war) - which is why IAF wasn’t so concerned about it. Sure it would be nice to have longer range missiles - but not really crucial.

- Is it the IAF’s fault that GOI sat on MMRCA for a decade?

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby nachiket » 24 Apr 2020 20:41

Gyan wrote:Anyway, I dont want push a point by repeating it. If we don't want to accept that there were mistakes & present procurement is not about becoming battle worthy but only about buying the most costly junk, then I cannot prove it, even if I show pics of K9s or T90s. Did we order more T90s after 27th Feb? Are we going to buy crap Mig 29s old hulls while delaying LCA MKIA?

There are always things to learn from every engagement. But you cannot make ridiculous claims like why didn't Abhinandan dump chaff? OMG! based on grainy videos in which you don't see the chaff. The Mig-29 deal isn't final. And they will be upgraded to UPG standard if bought. And what do T90's have to do with this?

Off course, I also don't believe that for so much money Frenchies won't have integrated Meteor if we had put our foot down. At that time, they would have sold their mother. Also it's a NATO weapon which is inherently easy to integrate with NATO platform. Mirage 2000 cost was 83% OF NEW aircraft.

Meteor is not integrated on any Mirage-2000 anywhere. Even in the French AF. It wasn't even integrated withe Rafale till recently. Even now no operational Rafale carries it even in the French AF. And you wanted us to arm-twist the French into integrating with the M2k years ago when the upgrade was being negotiated? Pray tell us us how if you have all the answers.

But anyway, Dhanoa did himself say we did badly at perception battle. Short sharp conflicts are always perception battles. So ACM says......? He is also wrong?

If Pak population thinks our strike failed then actually we failed. All Pakis privately admit that they were smashed in Kargill but here we have let them win perception battle. No one, including foreign observers believe we hit and killed 300 jihadists.

:rotfl: Yes those dead jihadis must be so happy we lost the perception battle after killing them. The point of the strike was to firstly kill the jihadis waiting to infiltrate into India and carry out more Pulwama style attacks and secondly to let the pakis know that if they did another Pulwama, the retaliation would be inside their territory not ours. Perception battle only matter on the internet.

Incidentally, everyone now conveniently forgets about other 2 rumored targets. Why? No one in IAF wants to repeat calculated words?

IAF needs to address every rumour on the internet?

Now except for Rafale, how has IAF improved since 27th Feb? So IAF is a useless defensive force? With no options? Except praying for Rafales? Do we need IAF or should it be in lockout till 36 Rafales are delivered? Or we should just use Rafales, and give up rest of Airforce? How many Meteors we ordered? 100? So whole of India is dependent on these 100 missiles which we will get? When? 2022?

Nobody is saying that but you. So you make ridiculous claims yourself and point to them as the truth? Are you high?

It was an across the board list of deficiencies on 27th Feb:-

Less AWACS
NO VLR BVR
Comms Jammed, no SAT Comms on fighters
Self defense Jammers not available on all Fighters
IFF integration or operational problems, Mi-17
MAAWS, & automatic Chaff & flare dispensers
Poor data link capability and Situational Awareness

All of these have been discussed here to no end. Yes, there are deficiencies. And if $$ grew on trees they would all be addressed by now. The chaff and flare nonsense is something you made up btw.

Will importing 30 year old Mig29s going to solve these problems?

They will increase numbers. Nobody claimed they will solve all problems. So another non-sequitur.

Was there anything left that did not go wrong? PAF fired at us, we ran away. This is an achievement???? After preparing for 18 years? 100s of Excercises with foreign airforces ?

Who ran away? PAF never crossed the LoC. We crossed it on Feb 26. Abhinandan crossed it again on Feb 27. The PAF turned tail without guiding their weapons to their targets and consequently hit nothing. Peddle this nonsense elsewhere.

But it seems, no change since 27th Feb. If Another strike is ordered by Modi tomorrow, what will ACM Say? Let's wait for Meteor devataa?

They didn't say that on Feb 26. They went in and bombed Khyber Pakhtunwa. So again, peddle your nonsense elsewhere.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Gyan » 24 Apr 2020 20:53

....

Post Edited

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Last edited by Rakesh on 24 Apr 2020 21:20, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: PERSONAL ATTACKS AGAINST MEMBERS ARE NOT PERMITTED

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Rakesh » 24 Apr 2020 20:56

Gyan, that's it. You are done.

Enjoy a ban for a month. Personal attacks against members are not permitted.

In that time, please think about getting some "real" gyan, before you go around giving gyan to others.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 25 Apr 2020 05:26

Gyan wrote:



I said deployed together, evidently Chaff and flares are two different things. Even if cartridges are separate, RWR would be firing them together. Unless, our RWR is sophisticated enough,and it can fired separately, then there is new technology available with us, which I am not aware about.


There are a variety of modes available in most chaff & flare dispensers to fire them separately or together.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 25 Apr 2020 13:05

Watching the ACM Dhanoa ,current ACM and Retired AM Western Command has been an eye opener for me. Initially based on internet images, it was thought that the upgraded M-2000 were in the North Kashmir eyeing the Jf-17's and the Su-30 confrontation happened in Near Jammu, but now both ACM Dhanoa and AM have confirmed the Su-30(avenger 1 and 2) confrontation happened near Srinagar/ Baramullah and M-2000 T/I were near Udhampur.

now see this, the radar image at 2:48



There are 2 F-16 south of Mangla, group of 4 F-16's around the mangla Dam and 2 JF-17 flying towards the North. Looking at the description given by ACM Dhanoa , the SU 30 Avenger 1 and 2 was close to the area where the Mi 17 went down due to friendly fire, wonder how many F-16's were there and how many F-16's were to the South near Udhampur Sialkot area where the M-2000's were.

So basically the 2 Bisons crossed the LOC where 6 f-16's were there and 2 JF-17 flying away and got 1 and 1 Bison came back after the Lead was hit in the Dogfight.

I hope now we can get a better map with actually what happened with SU-30 placed in the North and M-2000 placed in the South.

I have a feeling the Paki blunders were because they mistook that the Mi-17 might be Su-30 over Budgam and hence their faux pas.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby nachiket » 27 Apr 2020 23:10

Aditya_V wrote:I have a feeling the Paki blunders were because they mistook that the Mi-17 might be Su-30 over Budgam and hence their faux pas.

Very difficult to mistake an Mi-17 for a Su-30. In addition to the difference in RCS, there would be a big difference in speed. Avenger 1 got too close for comfort despite all the AMRAAMs fired at him so they decided to turn back earlier than they had perhaps planned. And then they simply hadn't counted on the Bisons showing up so suddenly. The AWACS did not see them till they climbed above the mountains.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 28 Apr 2020 04:09

Radar wise impossible to mix a Su 30 for Mi 17. But when you are promised a Su 30 kill by PAF top brass, you hear reports of IAF aircraft down, you think the Indians hide losses like the Pakis. That's where Gafoora and IK that day were clearly waiting for Su 30 news. These are not technically skilled or rational people.

And the Saab 2000 erieye is AEW , I don't think it has 360 degree coverage, it's not AWACs

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby krishna_krishna » 28 Apr 2020 09:03

[quote="Karan M"][/quote]


Sir, Questions for you 1) when Aim120C is fired at the outside limit of it's envelope what is the missile programmed to do? It is programmed to detonate in near proximity to target upon failing to hit it or self destruct as it runs out of fuel ?

2) There is lot of westerlies in that region (feb strikes by porkies) , are the winds so huge to cause any impact on that day on wreckage and or parachutes ?

3) Saab erieye hs capability to guide AIM120C during terminal guidance as well using link-16 is it true ? my understanding is that only when it is launched it is guided by aewac at terminal stages it is always active seeker. Since porkies don't have any mid-course guided update ones or did not use in February combat they were directed by aewac.

Had a chat with ex-IAF chap, his comments he is convinced but not conclusive that F16 was downed.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 28 Apr 2020 11:33

Various open source Videos, Pakistani behavior, Black out and repeated IAF senior persons claims including post Abhinandan Debrief etc, F 16 went down that day. No doubt about it.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 28 Apr 2020 11:51

krishna_krishna wrote:

Sir, Questions for you 1) when Aim120C is fired at the outside limit of it's envelope what is the missile programmed to do? It is programmed to detonate in near proximity to target upon failing to hit it or self destruct as it runs out of fuel ?


No sir for me please. It has a self-destruct function apparently. I had posted on it before, need to dig it up.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/0 ... t-estonia/

2) There is lot of westerlies in that region (feb strikes by porkies) , are the winds so huge to cause any impact on that day on wreckage and or parachutes ?


Not sure - what I do know is that the OSINT effort by Sameer et al detected a lot and also showed a wreckage which was caught visually but was not of the MiG-21. The IAF/GOI can't reveal their hands, and nor should they. The capabilities they have/dont have should be restricted for an-all out conflict.

3) Saab erieye hs capability to guide AIM120C during terminal guidance as well using link-16 is it true ? my understanding is that only when it is launched it is guided by aewac at terminal stages it is always active seeker. Since porkies don't have any mid-course guided update ones or did not use in February combat they were directed by aewac.


The point I was seeking to make in a parallel discussion, is that with todays S-Band radars plus additional ESM sensors the above capability may well be possible or if it is not, we need to evaluate it in detail and dismiss. I am not a big fan of "x hasn't declared it, so it is impossible". All hypothesis need to be explored and at best discarded if they seem unworkable, or less likely.

This is provided the basic radar is accurate enough but is also aided by today's passive sensors which track emitting targets like fighters, and can add further layers of accuracy to the positional data via sensor fusion. This consolidated track file is then used by the fighter to guide in the missile without using its radar. It can get even more dicey, if the aircraft to missile datalink is decoupled and put on the aircraft itself. Is it technologically possible? There are hurdles, but a suitably funded or capable team may well crack it.

Has it been implemented on the SAAB AEW&CS - I don't know. Its a very useful capability, and if they had, they would do their best not to advertise it. It would allow them to use their F-16s purely as launch platforms and avoid getting into missile range themselves or locked into mid-course guidance of the fighters.

What I can point out though is several of the F-16 AMRAAM launches show a bow shaped aircraft contrail signature, which means they launched the missile and turned away - this can occur in 1 of two cases - 1. A low/er Pk inertial only mode launch wherein the missile flies out to a location and then seeks to lock on to a target but F-16 remains "safe" as its not guiding the missile in 2. A lock-on-before launch at a target which has come close enough for the AMRAAM to attack on (20 odd km).
Assuming it was the first, the F-16s could do this to put the Su-30/s on defensive, but given the fact they outnumbered the Su-30s and were arranged in a kinematically advantageous position, it would have made more sense for them to guide the missile in for high Pk.

This is the part which leads to speculation regarding a possible AEW&CS linkage with the missile armament itself.

Alternatively, there was some element of buddy designation capable within the APG-68 v(9) and AMRAAM WCS, and one F-16 was the designator/guidance unit, whereas the others merely the launchers. That would explain why they could launch and turn away.

This may seem more presumable - but all this is based on the fundamental premise that the AMRAAM shots were not inertial only or LOBL as Avenger 1 got too close.

Had a chat with ex-IAF chap, his comments he is convinced but not conclusive that F16 was downed.


You can point him to the comments by ACM Dhanoa. He is straight and to the point. Two aircraft went down that day, per IAF sensors and cross collaboration with IA. One was the MiG-21, what was the second? The sensors all indicate a F-16 loss.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby khan » 28 Apr 2020 14:04

Karan M wrote: 1. A low/er Pk inertial only mode launch wherein the missile flies out to a location and then seeks to lock on to a target but F-16 remains "safe" as its not guiding the missile in 2. A lock-on-before launch at a target which has come close enough for the AMRAAM to attack on (20 odd km).
Assuming it was the first, the F-16s could do this to put the Su-30/s on defensive, but given the fact they outnumbered the Su-30s and were arranged in a kinematically advantageous position, it would have made more sense for them to guide the missile in for high Pk.

Interesting & a scary thought for them to have this capability. No wonder IAF is so keen on Rafale (actually Meteor).

It seems as if IAF has some catching up to do in AWACS & missiles.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 28 Apr 2020 14:57

Remember this is under the *assumption* they would prefer a high Pk shot.

Its equally plausible they launched on inertial only during one of Avenger 1's charges, as the F-16s primary aim would be to save itself apart from attacking Avenger 1.

Or by launching on inertial only, they could put the Su-30s on defensive, for subsequent high Pk guided shots as the Su-30s would be going cold but the follow on F-16s could launch without fear (that would be their aim, but the GC/AWACS would be informing the Su-30s of what was going on too).

Or they had a buddy-guidance capability amongst the F-16s.

Its not definite that they do field an AMRAAM guidance capability from an AWACS at all, but its something worth keeping in mind as a possibility, that's all and checking with the DRDO about the feasibility of such a capability having been fielded and what its limitations would be.

Remember we literally have our own Erieye in the desi AEW&CS which is a very similar system.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 28 Apr 2020 15:25

Remember they did this after keeping thier airforce in the air on 26-Feb-19 and intervening night of 27-Feb-19. They even sent some UAV's to become Shaheed. They waited this conditions were perfect before attack- I suspect they Way Gafoora and Imran Khan behaved they had promised a SU-30 Kill.

If the Phalcon was on station it could be have been totally different, and imagine they wasted 5 missiles and could not score a hit- for missile which is called as "SLAMMER". That would have been a huge downer for the PAF- thats why they are probably spreading the SU-30 myth I think even among the rank and file of the PAF- accepting the truth would probably damage the PAF, I suspect many of them especially in Mirage and JF-17 squadrons have not been told that the F-16 went down.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 28 Apr 2020 16:02

Phalcon was on station.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby nachiket » 28 Apr 2020 21:26

Karan M wrote:What I can point out though is several of the F-16 AMRAAM launches show a bow shaped aircraft contrail signature, which means they launched the missile and turned away - this can occur in 1 of two cases - 1. A low/er Pk inertial only mode launch wherein the missile flies out to a location and then seeks to lock on to a target but F-16 remains "safe" as its not guiding the missile in 2. A lock-on-before launch at a target which has come close enough for the AMRAAM to attack on (20 odd km).
Assuming it was the first, the F-16s could do this to put the Su-30/s on defensive, but given the fact they outnumbered the Su-30s and were arranged in a kinematically advantageous position, it would have made more sense for them to guide the missile in for high Pk.

Is this from the videos that came out taken from the ground? I believe those were AMRAAMs being fired at WingCo Abhinandan and his wingman not the ones being fired at the Su-30's. The Mig-21's were much closer to the launching F-16's and the AMRAAMs would be launched in LOBL mode or at least have gone pitbull very quickly after launch allowing the F-16's to turn back.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 28 Apr 2020 21:28

Not from a video, pics posted by Sameer Joshi and on BR sometime back. He specifically pointed out they were the ones launched at the Su-30s. If against MiG-21s would make sense only if the MiG-21s were headed towards them. Towards a receding target, why would you launch and turn.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 28 Apr 2020 21:30

Sir is it possible to put the pic once again?

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby nachiket » 28 Apr 2020 21:34

Karan M wrote:Not from a video, pics posted by Sameer Joshi and on BR sometime back. He specifically pointed out they were the ones launched at the Su-30s. If against a MiG-21 would make sense only if the MiG-21s were headed towards them. Towards a receding target, why would you launch and turn.

I need to go back and find them. If the AMRAAM has gone pitbull, there is no reason to continue chasing the target unless you mean to run them down with subsequent missile shots if they evade the previous one. That is not what the pakis were doing. They were close to the LoC and they did not seem to want to cross it. Besides, the receding Mig-21's weren't their only problem. There were other aircraft coming into the area and their mission was already done by that point. Would make perfect sense to turn cold as soon as the AMRAAM's go pitbull or even earlier to keep your own aircraft safe. It is possible WingCo Abhi's wingman evaded the missile because he was just a little farther away and the paki who launched on him turned cold before the missile went pitbull. Abhi was too close and the missile against him was launched in LOBL mode and nearly impossible to evade.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 28 Apr 2020 21:42

Here is the Twitter link of the Pic

https://twitter.com/joe_sameer/status/1112694030188593155/photo/1

Image

Link to pg 78 Srai post https://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?t=7699&start=3080

The problem I have is you see the Air Marshal Chandrasekharan's Hari Kumar interview and ACM Dhanoa's interviews, the M-2000's are over Udhampur and the Su-30 being fired on is over Kashmir- so clearly this may not be that accurate.

Plus the IAF presentation has a group of 4 F-16's near Mangla and Mirpur, 2 more F-16 just south of these 4, and near these 6 just accross the LOC near Jhangar the 2 Mig 21 Bisons, 2 JF-17's are flying north from Khuritta near the LOC near Mendhar.

This pic contradicts all 3

There is an IDRW link which has the pics but I think that is Haram
Last edited by Aditya_V on 28 Apr 2020 21:55, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby nachiket » 28 Apr 2020 21:49

Aditya_V I edited your post to fix the image link.

This pic was posted by Sameer Joshi before the IAF released its images with the radar tracks. So there are some discrepancies. There was some guesswork involved in the earlier images since the exact details weren't available.

But I don't think Karan is talking about this pic. He is speaking about actual photos that came out where you can see aircraft and missile contrails in the sky.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby sudeepj » 28 Apr 2020 21:51

How about the Israeli jammer on Abhis plane? Those are supposed to provide some last ditch defense against active radar missiles by triggering their proximity fuzes while the missile is some distance away from the plane. Did that work as expected or a certain percentage of missiles slipping past the jammer is expected?

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby nachiket » 28 Apr 2020 21:59

sudeepj wrote:How about the Israeli jammer on Abhis plane? Those are supposed to provide some last ditch defense against active radar missiles by triggering their proximity fuzes while the missile is some distance away from the plane. Did that work as expected or a certain percentage of missiles slipping past the jammer is expected?

He was carrying 2 R-77's and 2 R-73's. No space for the jamming pod. Also, if I'm not mistaken it will only cover the forward aspect and will not be useful against a missile in a tail-chase, although I could be wrong about that part.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Rakesh » 28 Apr 2020 22:16

The picture at right is not from the actual dogfight, but still nice. The NaPakis have the gun camera footage. That is an F-16 though in the picture.

https://twitter.com/KUNALBI25146617/sta ... 76384?s=20 ---> The MiG-21 from the IAF's No 51 Sword Arms Squadron killed the PAF F-16 using a Vympel R-73 close combat missile. A small tribute from my part.

Image

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby arvin » 28 Apr 2020 23:06

Rakesh wrote:The picture at right is not from the actual dogfight, but still nice. The NaPakis have the gun camera footage. That is an F-16 though in the picture.

https://twitter.com/KUNALBI25146617/sta ... 76384?s=20 ---> The MiG-21 from the IAF's No 51 Sword Arms Squadron killed the PAF F-16 using a Vympel R-73 close combat missile. A small tribute from my part.



The gun camera film would be in the ejection seat. Had there been a tactical data link the image could have transmited back in real time after the tone beep. Or alternatively the seat could have been equipped with satellite link to transmit after ejection.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby MeshaVishwas » 29 Apr 2020 02:51


Air Marshal Anil Khosla(VCAS) on the Balakot Air Strikes.
Must watch.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby sudeepj » 29 Apr 2020 07:58

nachiket wrote:
sudeepj wrote:How about the Israeli jammer on Abhis plane? Those are supposed to provide some last ditch defense against active radar missiles by triggering their proximity fuzes while the missile is some distance away from the plane. Did that work as expected or a certain percentage of missiles slipping past the jammer is expected?

He was carrying 2 R-77's and 2 R-73's. No space for the jamming pod. Also, if I'm not mistaken it will only cover the forward aspect and will not be useful against a missile in a tail-chase, although I could be wrong about that part.


I thought the boxy addition at the wing root of the bison contained the self protection jammer.. If you look at bison pics, you will see this box at the wing root I am talking about.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 29 Apr 2020 17:58

nachiket wrote:
Karan M wrote:Not from a video, pics posted by Sameer Joshi and on BR sometime back. He specifically pointed out they were the ones launched at the Su-30s. If against a MiG-21 would make sense only if the MiG-21s were headed towards them. Towards a receding target, why would you launch and turn.

I need to go back and find them. If the AMRAAM has gone pitbull, there is no reason to continue chasing the target unless you mean to run them down with subsequent missile shots if they evade the previous one. That is not what the pakis were doing. They were close to the LoC and they did not seem to want to cross it. Besides, the receding Mig-21's weren't their only problem. There were other aircraft coming into the area and their mission was already done by that point. Would make perfect sense to turn cold as soon as the AMRAAM's go pitbull or even earlier to keep your own aircraft safe. It is possible WingCo Abhi's wingman evaded the missile because he was just a little farther away and the paki who launched on him turned cold before the missile went pitbull. Abhi was too close and the missile against him was launched in LOBL mode and nearly impossible to evade.


But that's based on the assumption they would not want follow on shots. If there is a threat, and its turned cold, you take another shot if possible and knock it down, because it might turn hot again.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 29 Apr 2020 17:59

nachiket wrote:
sudeepj wrote:How about the Israeli jammer on Abhis plane? Those are supposed to provide some last ditch defense against active radar missiles by triggering their proximity fuzes while the missile is some distance away from the plane. Did that work as expected or a certain percentage of missiles slipping past the jammer is expected?

He was carrying 2 R-77's and 2 R-73's. No space for the jamming pod. Also, if I'm not mistaken it will only cover the forward aspect and will not be useful against a missile in a tail-chase, although I could be wrong about that part.


Forward and rear quarter coverage is the usual pattern. Not to the sides.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 29 Apr 2020 18:00

nachiket wrote:But I don't think Karan is talking about this pic. He is speaking about actual photos that came out where you can see aircraft and missile contrails in the sky.


Yes, exactly

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 29 Apr 2020 18:01

sudeepj wrote:
nachiket wrote:He was carrying 2 R-77's and 2 R-73's. No space for the jamming pod. Also, if I'm not mistaken it will only cover the forward aspect and will not be useful against a missile in a tail-chase, although I could be wrong about that part.


I thought the boxy addition at the wing root of the bison contained the self protection jammer.. If you look at bison pics, you will see this box at the wing root I am talking about.


Chaff and flares

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby krishna_krishna » 29 Apr 2020 22:59

Please see link below on what is "notching", this is one of the techniques I believed used by Avenger 1 to dodge AIM-120C and it work. This also fill in the void why porkis believe Su-30 vanished off the radar screen. Porkies being half baked professional or uber TFTA claimed that it was a success kill.

Please watch from 13:00 onwards :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8Z3ta1 ... e=youtu.be

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby sudeepj » 30 Apr 2020 01:06

Karan M wrote:
sudeepj wrote:
I thought the boxy addition at the wing root of the bison contained the self protection jammer.. If you look at bison pics, you will see this box at the wing root I am talking about.


Chaff and flares


I dont see any chaff/flare cartridges here.. Usually those look like a grid into which the individual cartridges go. The boxy thing at the wing root doesnt appear to have any kind of opening to discharge the cartridges. I cant find the link, but I vaguely remember, that this box contained some kind of EW equipment.

https://imgproc.airliners.net/photos/ai ... .jpg?v=v40

Heres another picture with a better angle..

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-8 ... 7ae9a.webp

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby srai » 30 Apr 2020 03:40

^^^

Image
Image

Image

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby MeshaVishwas » 30 Apr 2020 03:46

Adding to Karan's and srai's post...
Image
This is the LanceR but you can see the release more clearly

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby sudeepj » 30 Apr 2020 07:50

Thanks for the correction Srai ji, Karan ji! My memory is obviously showing its age. Bit like the Mig 21 :lol:

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby nachiket » 30 Apr 2020 09:04

What does CDR stand for in that pic of the Mig-21? It is in the middle of the tail fin.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 30 Apr 2020 12:11

Crash Data Retrieval/Recorder


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