MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

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ArjunPandit
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby ArjunPandit » 05 May 2020 13:51

Rakesh wrote:NaPakis view their air force being superior vis-a-viv India by the number of Indian planes they shot and the number they lost in comparison. Their entire history lies in IAF losses vs PAF losses.

India views their air force in political and military objectives being met. Losses are part and parcel of the game. Ex Gagan Shakti proved that.

That is the difference.

highlighting the important part..didnt realize its importance in the first read

nam
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby nam » 05 May 2020 14:16

Paks lost the leverage after Saudi attack on Yemen, when Pak in their usual two tongued style, did a "we won't take side" moral standing :rotfl: .

Why would Arab send their kit to Pak, when they know Pak will not take side in a fight with Iran? and end up making an enemy with a future 3rd largest GDP for a fight where they have no dog?

An Pak victory does not give them any advantage. Pak is not going to buying more oil. An Indian win is quite useful for them..

Rather than sending fighters, they might send across Aim120 or PGMs...

Larry Walker
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Larry Walker » 05 May 2020 14:56

I think Arabs have sent their planes and other hardware to Pakistan in our earlier wars. It is understood that situation now is very diferent, but there has been precedent. Another blind spot maybe Arabs sponsoring weapons purchase for Porkies during war situations. Pakistan has been sustained by dark hegemonic forces - the Atlantists as well as the Islamists as a threat that will always stay at our 6 o'clock that will bind us to always guard our rear which will drain our resources

Karan M
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 05 May 2020 21:27

Please focus on the discussion at hand. Generic posts deleted.

Leonard
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Leonard » 06 May 2020 05:55

Enjoy the Greek Mirage2000 chasing the Turkish F16 -- poontang ...

He has locked on atleast 10+ times .. Happened on Sunday .. Imagine the TERROR on the PAF Fizzlya ??

Now most PEOPLE will understand WHY the PAF carried out a "SWIFT RETREAT" operation :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

https://twitter.com/i/status/1257626336522317827

Manish_Sharma
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Manish_Sharma » 06 May 2020 08:38

Karan M wrote:
Rakesh wrote:It is a myth - started by NaPakis themselves - that the PAF will have access to these nations' combat aircraft in times of war. There are a number of reasons why this will not happen. Posting articles like this only serves to add fuel to that myth.


I have posted this before, will post it again. Several years back, there was a significant joint planning exercise by some Arab AF with a potential flashpoint being an Indo-Pak war going on in the background. Not one Arab AF considered a transfer of aircraft to PAF. Not one. This was before India even picked up its economic capability, enhanced its ties and became an even bigger consumer of their oil.


I have foggy recollection of reading here on brf that some arabian countries sent fighters to Pakistan in '65 and 71 wars. Maybe Syria did it not sure about saudi Arabia

manjgu
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby manjgu » 06 May 2020 09:25

1) Greeks AF and Turkish AF have been in this mock fight since many years...getting each other in their sights but never shooting... so while the vid is interesting, proves nothing.
2) i think it was Jordanians who sent their planes in 65 and 71 wars.

Karan M
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 06 May 2020 17:02

Manish_Sharma wrote:
Karan M wrote:
I have posted this before, will post it again. Several years back, there was a significant joint planning exercise by some Arab AF with a potential flashpoint being an Indo-Pak war going on in the background. Not one Arab AF considered a transfer of aircraft to PAF. Not one. This was before India even picked up its economic capability, enhanced its ties and became an even bigger consumer of their oil.


I have foggy recollection of reading here on brf that some arabian countries sent fighters to Pakistan in '65 and 71 wars. Maybe Syria did it not sure about saudi Arabia


Yes, but the exercise I am mentioning happened in the 2000s and there was no desire to send expensive platforms to Pak.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 06 May 2020 17:04

manjgu wrote:1) Greeks AF and Turkish AF have been in this mock fight since many years...getting each other in their sights but never shooting... so while the vid is interesting, proves nothing.
2) i think it was Jordanians who sent their planes in 65 and 71 wars.


A Greek Mirage shot down a Turkish AF F-16 with a Magic.

Wiki:
On 8 October 1996, during an air-to-air confrontation over the Aegean Sea in the Athens FIR, a Greek Mirage 2000 fired an R550 Magic missile and shot down a Turkish F-16D. The Greek government claimed that the Turkish aircraft had violated Greek airspace, however, the Turkish government claimed that it had been on a training mission north of the Greek island of Samos, close to the Turkish mainland. The Turkish pilot died, while the co-pilot ejected and was rescued by Greek forces.[92][93] Although the Turkish government has admitted the loss, the Greek government officially denies that the shootdown occurred.[94] The loss was confirmed in 2012, after the downing of a RF-4E on the Syrian Coast. In response to a parliamentary question, Turkish Defence Minister İsmet Yılmaz stated that Turkish F-16D Block40 (s/n 91-0023) of 192 Filo was shot down by a Greek Mirage 2000 with a R.550 Magic II missile on 8 October 1996 after violating Greek airspace near Chios island.[95]

Karan M
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 06 May 2020 18:04

In the Indo Pak context, close in fight, IAF Mirages are equipped with Thales Topsight helmets for high off boresight missiles and the Mica.
PAF has JHMCS but no AIM-9X, but only the AIM-9M.

manjgu
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby manjgu » 06 May 2020 21:37

karan... anything since 1996?? almost 25 yrs ago... this is a little game both sides play nowdays.... shooting each others with cameras !!!

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby nachiket » 06 May 2020 23:35

manjgu wrote:1) Greeks AF and Turkish AF have been in this mock fight since many years...getting each other in their sights but never shooting... so while the vid is interesting, proves nothing.
2) i think it was Jordanians who sent their planes in 65 and 71 wars.

If I remember correctly the Jordanians sent the F-104's on Uncle Sam's request essentially. The Americans gave them more F-104's to make up for the ones they gave to pakis. So it was basically Americans selling F-104's to pakis indirectly to get around the arms embargo.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby RKumar » 07 May 2020 00:12

Clean up :mrgreen:
Last edited by RKumar on 07 May 2020 14:14, edited 1 time in total.

Karan M
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 07 May 2020 00:58

manjgu wrote:karan... anything since 1996?? almost 25 yrs ago... this is a little game both sides play nowdays.... shooting each others with cameras !!!


Its not really a "game" for them. Both sides take it very very seriously. The above incident was but one example of things turning hot or bad. Nor is it "nowadays".
https://www.businessinsider.in/defense/ ... 766614.cms
https://www.ekathimerini.com/227620/art ... since-1990

This from a mere month back.
https://www.itamilradar.com/2020/04/19/ ... -fighters/

The Greek AF values their Mirages very highly as they are the only fighters unique to the HAF and not available with the Turks.

Aditya_V
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 14 May 2020 15:18

[url][/url]Intresting Dr Shiv's take on 27 Feb 19 dogfight, according to his speculation the 1 F-16 has fired an Amraam when Wing Commander fires the R-73 missile at it from a lower altitude while the F-16 wingman fires an Amraam at the Mig 21 Bison. I do not agree with this but anyway thought we can see the video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=73&v=OOkTBpl5x0w&feature=emb_logo

https://youtu.be/OOkTBpl5x0w


Aditya_V
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 20 May 2020 18:24

Rishirishi wrote:Indian PSU's together with babus from the ministry may have been the greatest setback for Armed forces. LCA dose not have the required range due to design weakness. IHJ was not able to fly, Arjun had ITS weakness, kaveri, INSAS etc etc. Even Abhi was shot down because the communication was jammed. Why did he not have jamproof com.? Because some promise from PSU, to make IT.

I am not sure of Wing Commander shot down due to communication Jam, that was the Paki story- they couldn't say he was on their side of LOC and brought down F-16 could they. They brought the communication Jam story out so they could say he was on their side of LOC by mistake.

Nowhere does Squandron leader Minty Agarwal, ACM Dhanoa, AM Harikumar Chandrasekharan mention this while they do mention of about multiple Amraam firings, Amraam being better etc.

The Pakistanis brought out the story otherwise people were asking why were the MIg 21 Bison on their side of LOC - they couldn't admit it was surprise attack on their F-16 so put of the communication Jam story.

If you see the various interviews and radar picture - there 6 F-16's and 2 JF -17 , 2 JF 17 having released MK 83 bombs and 1 f16 dropped a LGB, the other F-16's were firing Amraam shots at the SU-30 so that they could continue more attacks till they hit our Army targets.

Wing Commander Abhinandan and Squadron leader Vyas knew the risks but the took it and made Swift Retort to Swift retreat and see Pakistan Army panicked and started getting on the roads of Sialkot- Mirpur road since the PAF had retreated. They did since the PAF had promised they would hit the Indian Army targets causing casualties and possible retaliation from the IAF, they didnt know the PAF had 11 misses that day including 4 H-4 missiles and 1 LGB.

chetonzz
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby chetonzz » 23 May 2020 19:39

James wrote:Hmm, it’s the mango season as well. History repeating itself? Will be interesting to see the passenger manifest.


Suspicious... 2 PAF pilots together? Cut paste from 27th feb 19?

Image
Image

MeshaVishwas
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby MeshaVishwas » 30 May 2020 17:27

Looks like Pakis are trying to plug the gaping holes in AD that the Vajra exploited.
They are lapping up all used Saab-2000 airframes and getting the radar fitted.
Pakis claiming that the new numbers are anywhere between 6-9 Erieye birds.

Gagan
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Gagan » 31 May 2020 11:48

ks_sachin wrote:
Gagan wrote:My take on the lack of infowar by the Indian Armed Forces is that the 3 chiefs, the CDS, the vice chiefs and the senior officers live in the past century.
One can constantly see them tweaking their moustaches and pooh-poohing fancy technology, cyber-war, space-war, info-war.

This is a culture that they have created to protect the institution in a socialist era, with bad politics and armed forces hating communists in the media. That culture required the armed forces to function under the radar, not rake ANY controversy, silence and severely punish any whistle-blowers.

The need of the hour is a slick media management, high tech computer graphics, control the narrative in desi and international DDM
Wonder when this will change, it is high time this happened.

Rather a simplistic view Gagan

In that case please do enlighten us all Sir

My view is that under previous GoIs, the armed forces were supposed to stay away from the media, hidden away, not respond to positive or negative criticism at all. GoI treated them as a cash cow for corruption so hid them away.

Now the 21st century battlefield has a Cyber and a Media component to it as well. Why should the armed forces not be represented here adequately?

No where do I suggest that the Armed Forces not be apolitical. But there is a LOT of institutional inertia that was suited for the last century and needs a 21st century tweaking.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby deejay » 31 May 2020 18:53

What you say makes sense. Armed Forces as a whole need to take back initiative. We have been reactive and we need to move into the domain of setting the agenda.

Our adoption of tech and response in this 24 by 7 news cycle needs to be in tune with modern fog of war.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby manjgu » 31 May 2020 21:00

dictatorship ...unelected govt have a greater need for media warfare... they have need to control the populace with a false narrative. Pakistan still peddles many lies..it won in 47-48, 1965, 71, kargil, siachen etc etc. while media is imp but we are overstating its usefulness IMHO..

Leonard
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Leonard » 01 Jul 2020 01:49

Another new video crops up .. No matter how much the Fizzle-Ya tries to cover up ..

https://twitter.com/i/status/1277311207280726023

Upar aur ek Doosra heh ..

Bhag jayega ...

Aditya_V
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 09 Jul 2020 13:46

Interesting discussion of the 27-Feb-19 dogfight, did not see it here



There is a mention of 3 LGB's dropped not 1 as earlier thought.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby ks_sachin » 09 Jul 2020 14:56

Gagan wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:Rather a simplistic view Gagan

In that case please do enlighten us all Sir

My view is that under previous GoIs, the armed forces were supposed to stay away from the media, hidden away, not respond to positive or negative criticism at all. GoI treated them as a cash cow for corruption so hid them away.

Now the 21st century battlefield has a Cyber and a Media component to it as well. Why should the armed forces not be represented here adequately?

No where do I suggest that the Armed Forces not be apolitical. But there is a LOT of institutional inertia that was suited for the last century and needs a 21st century tweaking.


I will definitely do so. Or at least write of my experiences.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 09 Jul 2020 19:07

Aditya_V wrote:Interesting discussion of the 27-Feb-19 dogfight, did not see it here

There is a mention of 3 LGB's dropped not 1 as earlier thought.


I have posted it 3-4 times myself. :D


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