Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17947
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Postby Karan M » 14 Mar 2019 06:13

Indranil wrote:This is what I am saying. The Hawk is not an ideal platform. So develop the systems on this platform. Design the HJT-39 which is of the same weight class as the Hawk, but has 45 kN of power. That's a very different aircraft.


Instead of the HJT-39 why can't HAL just put all its effort into LCA Mk1A and LCA Sport. Sell the latter. The Hawks are going to be around a long time, why re-invent the wheel for a product category the IAF isn't too keen on as versus a product, which is a national imperative. IMHO, the aim should be LCA followed by Su-30 upgrades and indigenization.

agree that it will be very interesting. But, IMHO it is beyond HAL's capability to develop a fighter class UCAV first up.


HAL should take a LCA derivative or even a Kiran or Hawk one and work on the sensors with DRDO, BEL, ECIL, Pvt industry. The work will pay dividends over the longer run.

Thakur_B
BRFite
Posts: 1379
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Postby Thakur_B » 14 Mar 2019 07:00

With LCA SPORT, HJT 39 project is as good as dead.

Bart S
BRFite
Posts: 1722
Joined: 15 Aug 2016 00:03

Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Postby Bart S » 14 Mar 2019 07:11

Thakur_B wrote:With LCA SPORT, HJT 39 project is as good as dead.


Why? They both have different roles and are complementary.

Thakur_B
BRFite
Posts: 1379
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Postby Thakur_B » 14 Mar 2019 07:26

Hawk fills AJT role currently, Sport will get the LIFT role. HJT 39 being supersonic would eat into potential numbers for SPORT.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66602
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Postby Singha » 14 Mar 2019 07:36

with barely a handful of countries in a position to afford 4++ gen fighters let alone 5th gen, the stage is set for "white box" market where nondescript hawk/scorpion/sport/cessna types upped with smart weapons and sensors will do the air defence and CAS thing.

fleet numbers will shrink worldwide. nobody can afford the number of 5th gen that used to be 4th gen. eg belgium had 100+ F16..i doubt it will buy 100 JSF-A. france has less rafales that it did the Mirage2k/mirage4 combo.

PAF has made the right choice in level of tech JF17 to replace their large nos of retiring F7/M3/M5 - which would be 250 airframes for sure.

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7477
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Postby brar_w » 14 Mar 2019 07:51

Singha wrote:with barely a handful of countries in a position to afford 4++ gen fighters let alone 5th gen, the stage is set for "white box" market where nondescript hawk/scorpion/sport/cessna types upped with smart weapons and sensors will do the air defence and CAS thing.


Yes its a market though it remains to be seen how large it is, and how much of it is really looking at a manned platform. It is also a market that has a lot of players at different levels and price points with varying degrees of capabilities (from A-29 right up to F/A-50). The Chinese alone have a number of products here for those nations that cannot afford or wont be sold western wares. The Russians too as do the Turks with their UAV's.. Chinese offerings too are likely going to have to compete with their own drones. Despite its impressive range and loiter and modular payload Textron's scorpion has failed to get a single customer, despite being in the market for a few years, though a couple have evaluated it..HAL would be better off focusing on domestic demand and allocating its resources appropriately. If the IAF is interested it should go all in but if not I'd be cautious to be too reliant on export success..

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7404
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Postby Indranil » 14 Mar 2019 08:02

HAL’s SPORT is on the upper side of a LIFT. Its compatriots would be the T-50, T-X etc.

HJT-39 would be the low end LIFT. Its compatriots would be Chinese L-15, Yak-130, M346, etc.

There is space for both kinds in today’s world.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66602
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Postby Singha » 14 Mar 2019 08:04

but as brar sir said, the market is very fragmented and crowded with no clear est. of market size

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7477
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Postby brar_w » 14 Mar 2019 08:11

I was specifically speaking to the attack aircraft market not the trainer market. On the trainer side though the marketing is a bit different as fighter OEMs already in the market enjoy a leg up. The M346 enjoyed sales with western fighter operators because the US wasn't in the space. With the T-X and its production rate I expect it to corner a large chunk of the US origin fighter operator market that is yet to commit to a NG trainer, with the Master taking the rest.

The Russians and Chinese also essentially have the 346's cousins (same origin/roots from Russia) and the South Koreans are now bartering their aircraft for airlifters it seems and have a couple of customers too. Once HAL picks up a couple of fast jet customers with the LCA, then the road with the trainers becomes a lot easier. For attack aircraft, I'm not sure that the market exists to support so many players and none seem to be really selling in any quantity...I think the Sport needed to happen a few years ago but this is something the IAF would surely go for eventually as they can do with a more modern trainer than the Hawk in the long run given the LCA production will be on for a long time..

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7404
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Postby Indranil » 14 Mar 2019 09:28

I agree with that. IAF will have decide on what kind of LIFT it wants. AJT++ or Fighter--. Both have their advantages and disadvantages. Whatever it does decide on, HAL should be given 10 years of development time before, the induction has to take place.

JTull
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2611
Joined: 18 Jul 2001 11:31

Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Postby JTull » 14 Mar 2019 13:23

Thakur_B wrote:Hawk fills AJT role currently, Sport will get the LIFT role. HJT 39 being supersonic would eat into potential numbers for SPORT.


You clearly haven't watched this video before commenting

Manish_P
BRFite
Posts: 1837
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 17:34

Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Postby Manish_P » 14 Mar 2019 14:21

brar_w wrote:If you want the ability to field a cheap aircraft that can drop weapons suitable for danger close scenarios then the best route is to go unmanned and develop and utilize cheap PGMs with the higher munition inventory cost more than offset by the lack of need to have dedicated piloted aircraft (generally more expensive) and pilots for that need to spend a couple of hundred hours a year maintaining their competencies and skills..


+1 Enter the drone. I couldn't agree more.

Indidentally i have a question, not very related. Please answer it in the relevant thread - In the US, how do the qualifying parameters of a drone operator differ from those piloting manned aircraft. In terms of physicals, age, educational qualifications etc? Are a good percentage of drone operators actually qualified pilots of manned aircraft? Thanks.

jaysimha
BRFite
Posts: 963
Joined: 20 Dec 2017 14:30

Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Postby jaysimha » 14 Mar 2019 14:34

A TRIBUTE TO DR S R VALLURI, FORMER DIRECTOR OF CSIR-NAL AND VISIONARY AERO-SCIENTIST
https://www.nal.res.in/en/latestupdate?ar_id=134
Image
https://www.currentscience.ac.in/cs/Vol ... 5/0850.pdf
Dr Sitaram Rao Valluri, former Director of CSIR-National Aerospace Laboratories, Bengaluru, passed away on 23rd January 2019 due to ill health.

Dr S R Valluri, born on 25th June 1924, was an expert in metal fatigue and aircraft structure. He served as Director of CSIR-NAL for an incredible period of 19 years, from 23rd November 1965 to 30th June 1984. During this period, CSIR-NAL grew into a high technology R&D organization, with capability in all disciplines of aeronautics and with important National Facilities. These facilities include the 4ft trisonic wind tunnel which had its first blowdown on 29th May 1967; the full scale facility for testing the fatigue life of an aircraft commissioned in 1973; the closed circuit centrifugal test rig commissioned in 1983. Dr Valluri also set up new Scientific Divisions to initiate activities in important areas like failure analysis and accident investigation, vibration testing, composites, and Systems Engineering.

Dr Valluri put in immense efforts towards the approval of the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) project by the Government in 1983. As the first Director-General of the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), Dr Valluri laid the foundations for the success of the Tejas programme. His enormous contributions to Aeronautical R&D for the nation will be gratefully remembered by the scientific community.

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7404
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Postby Indranil » 22 Mar 2019 00:13

I have been thinking: And Brar sahib's comments on the slim chances of Tejas-SPORT winning the Malaysian competition caught my attention. He is right. The SPORT category of LIFT has suddenly got very congested. F-50, Tejas-SPORT and Boeing T-X all come under the same category. All powered by the same engine. Even if Malaysia or some other country chose to field this class of trainers, and decision came down to these three aircraft, guess what would happen?

If India wants to capture some of the international LIFT market, it cannot do so standing shoulder to shoulder with the American entrants. It has to eek out a niche. To have a modern single engine Yak-130 class LIFT powered by a single afterburning engine is a possibility. The differentiator will be the price of acquisition, maintenance and operation.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17947
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Postby Karan M » 22 Mar 2019 00:22

I dont think the SPORT needs to be targeted towards the LIFT at all, but rather towards the WW market and even the IAF as an addition to the LCA fleet as an airborne situational awareness leader & battle manager/strike commander. They should have some 2-3 SPORT with panoramic displays & enhanced avionics in each squadron, specifically to lead LCA strike packages, with those fancy drones and wingmen. Oh well, I can dream.

dinesh_kimar
BRFite
Posts: 332
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Refuellers for IAF

Postby dinesh_kimar » 25 Mar 2019 22:33

Apparently, the US has a refueller based on C-130J platform which has these features:

- Modular fuel tanks of 26 tons
- good for Helos and Fighter jets (speed 280 knots so fighters are comfortable with turbo prop)
- Pallet load of 20 ton cargo retained if mission requires it
- All other missions as normal C-130J.

If this is the case, IAF can please modify 11 C-130 J accordingly, instead of waiting for A-330 MRTT.

Accrue the benefits of the C130J platform.

I understand they already operate in Japan and Israel.

The thumb rule as I understand is one tanker for 8- 10 fighters.

Brar_W saab can perhaps shed more light on feasibility of this.

Kakarat
BRFite
Posts: 1779
Joined: 26 Jan 2005 13:59

Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Postby Kakarat » 26 Mar 2019 00:52

I dont think that kind of modification is possible since it might need too many modifications to the structure and would cost too much
There has been reports of IAF's interest in more C-130s, I think IAF should go for 12 more KC-130J or the MC-130J

VKumar
BRFite
Posts: 516
Joined: 15 Sep 1999 11:31
Location: Mumbai,India

Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Postby VKumar » 26 Mar 2019 01:18

We need one refueller and one awacs per fighter squadron

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7348
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Postby Rakesh » 26 Mar 2019 01:59

There you go again! :roll:

ks_sachin
BRFite
Posts: 976
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Postby ks_sachin » 26 Mar 2019 02:25

VKumar wrote:We need one refueller and one awacs per fighter squadron


<snipped by admin>

Address the argument without getting personal.

Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4275
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Postby Kartik » 26 Mar 2019 02:47

HAL Twitter link

Mr Arup chaterjee, HAL's. Director Engr and R&D flew the HTT 40 today during ongoing Aero India 2019, @drajaykumar_ias @DefProdnIndia @SpokespersonMoD #AeroIndia2019 #AeroIndiaConcludes


Image

Cybaru
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2294
Joined: 12 Jun 2000 11:31
Contact:

Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Postby Cybaru » 26 Mar 2019 02:56

VKumar wrote:We need one re-fueller and one awacs per fighter squadron


Use our old used Air India fleet. It has enough life. Re-fuellers don't fly every day and are needed once in a while. Even a commercial air-frame with 30-25% life works well for another 15-20 years.

Raveen
BRFite
Posts: 577
Joined: 18 Jun 2008 00:51
Location: 1/2 way between the gutter and the stars
Contact:

Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Postby Raveen » 26 Mar 2019 03:28

Cybaru wrote:
VKumar wrote:We need one re-fueller and one awacs per fighter squadron


Use our old used Air India fleet. It has enough life. Re-fuellers don't fly every day and are needed once in a while. Even a commercial air-frame with 30-25% life works well for another 15-20 years.



So invest the money to convert a passenger airliner into a half-cooked refueler only to write it all off in a handful of years?

Cybaru
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2294
Joined: 12 Jun 2000 11:31
Contact:

Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Postby Cybaru » 26 Mar 2019 03:38

Raveen wrote:
Cybaru wrote:
Use our old used Air India fleet. It has enough life. Re-fuellers don't fly every day and are needed once in a while. Even a commercial air-frame with 30-25% life works well for another 15-20 years.



So invest the money to convert a passenger airliner into a half-cooked refueler only to write it all off in a handful of years?


A decade and half is handful of years? it will probably more if the type is still flying and spares are available. Case in point AVRO.
use all that money saved to buy more squadrons that can actually use the fuel to get somewhere.

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7404
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Postby Indranil » 26 Mar 2019 05:20

I was actually talking to my friends in the IAF circles. They can't see how the Avro could be used as a cargo transport. They look at HAL's attempt as a subversion from the C295. However, they also agree that we shouldn't throw away resources. They felt that the Avros should be modernized and used in other aspects like the IN and CG MRMR/SAR requirements. May a few more beams for the IAF as well. I have to agree with them.

On those lines, can we repurpose the Avros as a refueling aircraft? Although it is feasible, it is very difficult. The problem is the low top speed of the Avro. Turboprops are great for refueling helis, and other turboprops. But the only turboprops that we have with a refueling probe are the 12 C-130s and (may be) the incoming 295s. We don't have any helis with refueling probes.

No matter what, I can't think of a reason to just throw away such airframes!!!

Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4275
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Postby Kartik » 05 Apr 2019 05:11

Surprisingly little coverage was received by the Jaguar MAX concept proposed by HAL at AI-2019. Expect all that is being proposed for the Jaguar MAX to be standard equipment on the Medium Weight Fighter Mk2.

From Janes

HAL showcases Jaguar MAX combat jet

Image

Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) showcased the Jaguar upgrade suite, designated as Jaguar MAX (Mothership for Augmented Xploitation) during the 20-24 February Aero India 2019 exhibition in Bangalore.

A schematic diagram of the Jaguar MAX configuration, displaying some of its main features. (HAL)A schematic diagram of the Jaguar MAX configuration, displaying some of its main features. (HAL)

HAL displayed new avionics, a cockpit, and a model of the heavily armed upgraded Jaguar (Jaguar MAX) ground-attack aircraft, which are being offered for the Indian Jaguar S/M/B (I) fleet, likely to be known as the Display Attack Ranging Inertial Navigation-III Plus (DARIN III+) standard. The original DARIN III standard is a modernisation effort that includes new avionics and cockpit, in addition to the integration of modern armaments. The upgrade is being developed and implemented in phases.

The Jaguar MAX primarily features an EL/M-2052 active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar from Elta, an AESA-based wide-band jammer, a combined interrogator transponder, a flight management system, a configurable cockpit with a larger area display, a voice command system, a helmet-mounted display, an L-band datalink for long-range missions, a GAGAN/GPS/GLONASS-aided INS (with IRNSS optional), a software defined V/UHF radio, and modernised engines (optional).

The aircraft can be configured with a Radar Targeting Pod (2 seat-variant)/Laser Pod/Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR) Pod/Electro-Optical (EO) Pod to meet various mission requirements.

The Jaguar MAX is envisioned to carry and launch various next-generation air-launched weapons, including a gliding heavy-weight new-generation precision-guided munition; five sensor-based, multi-warhead, anti-tank smart bombs; a new-generation laser-guided bomb; 16 gliding, lightweight smart anti-airfield weapons; a sea skimming anti-ship missile; two new-generation short-range air-to-air missiles; four next-generation beyond visual-range air-to-air missiles; five advanced medium-range cruise missiles; and 12 swarming unmanned air vehicles.


Cain Marko
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3507
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 10:26

Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Postby Cain Marko » 05 Apr 2019 08:24

Interesting that they conceive of the Jag Max as carryng 2 x bvr. Something I had wished for some years ago. I guess the aesa makes this possible. Probly still be derby.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66602
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Postby Singha » 05 Apr 2019 08:49

Asraam is a low end bvr of sorts .
Good for a parting shot to slip away from interceptors

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7477
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Postby brar_w » 05 Apr 2019 09:01

What sort of datalink does the ASRAAM carry? Have they ported over the two-way datalink from the CAMM program?

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17947
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Postby Karan M » 05 Apr 2019 09:51

Cain Marko wrote:Interesting that they conceive of the Jag Max as carryng 2 x bvr. Something I had wished for some years ago. I guess the aesa makes this possible. Probly still be derby.


It's the Astra.

rrao
BRFite
Posts: 112
Joined: 13 Feb 2007 22:17

Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Postby rrao » 05 Apr 2019 10:12

jaysimha wrote:A TRIBUTE TO DR S R VALLURI, FORMER DIRECTOR OF CSIR-NAL AND VISIONARY AERO-SCIENTIST
https://www.nal.res.in/en/latestupdate?ar_id=134
Image
https://www.currentscience.ac.in/cs/Vol ... 5/0850.pdf
Dr Sitaram Rao Valluri, former Director of CSIR-National Aerospace Laboratories, Bengaluru, passed away on 23rd January 2019 due to ill health.

Dr S R Valluri, born on 25th June 1924, was an expert in metal fatigue and aircraft structure. He served as Director of CSIR-NAL for an incredible period of 19 years, from 23rd November 1965 to 30th June 1984. During this period, CSIR-NAL grew into a high technology R&D organization, with capability in all disciplines of aeronautics and with important National Facilities. These facilities include the 4ft trisonic wind tunnel which had its first blowdown on 29th May 1967; the full scale facility for testing the fatigue life of an aircraft commissioned in 1973; the closed circuit centrifugal test rig commissioned in 1983. Dr Valluri also set up new Scientific Divisions to initiate activities in important areas like failure analysis and accident investigation, vibration testing, composites, and Systems Engineering.

Dr Valluri put in immense efforts towards the approval of the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) project by the Government in 1983. As the first Director-General of the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), Dr Valluri laid the foundations for the success of the Tejas programme. His enormous contributions to Aeronautical R&D for the nation will be gratefully remembered by the scientific community.



RIP sir!!! May the younger generation learn your contributions to the growth of Indian Aerospace industry!!!!

Cain Marko
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3507
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 10:26

Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Postby Cain Marko » 05 Apr 2019 12:50

Singha wrote:Asraam is a low end bvr of sorts .
Good for a parting shot to slip away from interceptors

Asraams are overwing, I'm taken by the BVRAAMs hanging on the out board pylons. That's clearly mentioned as bvr, asrasm won't cut it as soon out n out bvraam.

Cain Marko
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3507
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 10:26

Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Postby Cain Marko » 05 Apr 2019 12:51

Karan M wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:Interesting that they conceive of the Jag Max as carryng 2 x bvr. Something I had wished for some years ago. I guess the aesa makes this possible. Probly still be derby.


It's the Astra.

Thanks Karan, that's great news. Is this a done deal in terms of the iaf ordering said variant?

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17947
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Postby Karan M » 07 Apr 2019 06:19

Cain Marko wrote:
Karan M wrote:
It's the Astra.

Thanks Karan, that's great news. Is this a done deal in terms of the iaf ordering said variant?


Right now its a HAL concept, and the said proposal includes all the IAF weaponry planned in the near future.

After all the bellyaching about Astra Mk1, its clearly an equivalent to the RVV-SD with a 110km total range, 80 km head-on, 20km tail chase. IMO, until and unless there is something seriously wrong with IAF procurement, the Astra Mk1 will itself be ordered in substantial number. Makes no sense to have the shorter ranged Derby and Mica in the inventory and wait for Astra Mk2 when the Astra is there.

Cain Marko
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3507
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 10:26

Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Postby Cain Marko » 08 Apr 2019 00:37

^ yes. It would be a serious waste if loads of Astra are not ordered. I guessed it was derby on the Jag because of the Israeli radar. Didn't know they could integrate Astra on the 2052.

One more thing..
There is very little news of more r77 procurement unlike the r27s. Could this mean that the AF will order Astra instead.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17947
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Postby Karan M » 08 Apr 2019 00:54

We likely got more R77 with our MiG-29 UPG package, and even otherwise, the plan was to get some with the Su-30 Upgrade proposal.

However, if the IAF orders more Astra's then the need for R77s or imports will correspondingly reduce. They know the Astra in & out, every little bit of its performance, etc. I don't think they can say the same for the R77 and have to go by whatever the manufacturer says.

If we do buy the R77, I suspect we will buy the latest versions, the RVV-SD not the RVV-AE.

nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2350
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Postby nam » 08 Apr 2019 02:59

With low RCS fighter becoming mainstream, I won't be surprised to see Ramjet powered long range, with Imaging infrared and datalink BVR.

Once you are a approximate position of low RCS jets, you fire off closer to the target and let the seeker recognize the jets using image recognition, rather than rcs.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17947
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Postby Karan M » 08 Apr 2019 03:05

Yeah, I agree. This is the future.

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7477
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Postby brar_w » 08 Apr 2019 03:37

nam wrote:With low RCS fighter becoming mainstream, I won't be surprised to see Ramjet powered long range, with Imaging infrared and datalink BVR.


France MICA-NG - New RF seeker (AESA)
Japan/UK Meteor-NG - New RF Seeker (AESA)
US CAST - RF seeker (AESA)
UK CAMM - New RF seeker (though AL CAMM now seems to be dead for lack of funding)
PL-XX - New RF seeker (AESA?)
Astra MK2 - RF seeker

Propulsion trends are harder to forecast because not everyone is looking or wanting the same so each operator will continue to go down different paths, but high performance RF seekers are not going anywhere. They appear to likely continue to outpace high performance IIR seeker in the Medium to Long range Air to Air interceptor side of things into the coming decades just like they have in the last couple of decades.

IMHO the impact of the proliferation of Low Observable aircraft (it is just not fighters but also bombers, UAV's and even LO cruise missiles) will have a far greater impact on missile communication and passive RF (AESA based seekers opens up more possibilities) and how an engagement is executed than the seeker trades..at least that is the sense I get from seeing what lot of the major western players are doing. Perhaps the Chinese or the Russians will do something different but I haven't been able to pick up those trends there either (that would justify those conclusions (seeker)).

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17947
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Postby Karan M » 08 Apr 2019 05:02

All of them may be going for RF seekers based on whats available to them & what's also possible. The obvious problem is ranging with a passive seeker. That has significant problems with a missile that flies out a huge distance and hence cannot rely on mid-course updates alone to accurately judge & target a maneuvering target.

But IIR seeker equipped missiles at range or even multi-spectral ones are clearly the future. Either today, or tomorrow, they are coming, with exponential advances in datalinking infrared imagery. Even today, the PRC has cottoned onto it as well.
https://www.popsci.com/china-new-long-r ... ir-missile

The VLRAAM's backup sensor is a infrared/electro-optical seeker that can identify and hone in on high-value targets like aerial tankers and airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) radar aircraft. The VLRAAM also uses lateral thrusters built into the rear for improving its terminal phase maneuverability when engaging agile targets like fighters.


Now, lets look at even the US, as cited below. We can have a 10 Mn word debate on this, but the obvious reason to go for such investments in IRST tech., is because the US is not too sure that even its AESA equipped fighters are that future proof against massive ERP jammers equipped with wide bandwidth DRFM.

As the conventional RF detection field gets crowded, the crowd will start eyeing the optical side, and then the real exotics which are still maturing in labs. The same applies for acquisition sensors on aircraft OR on their weapons.

We can't get into the FPA/MCT game fast enough. Sadly, funding.

In making a virtue out of a necessity, and replicating what PIRATE long claimed to a degree and what Rafale also likely does, we have:
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-b ... inas-25964
As Gillian explained, while the IRST Block II is not part of the Block III program, the advanced processing, datalinks and sensor-fused display onboard the new Super Hornet variant enable the new capabilities envisioned for the new sensor. As Bob Kornegay, Boeing’s capture team leader for domestic F/A-18E/F and EA-18G programs, explains, the critical Common Tactical Picture sensor-fused display will be enabled by the Block III aircraft’s powerful high speed anti-jam TTNT datalink and the sheer computing power of the DTP-N processor, which is needed to run the complex algorithms that make multi-aircraft data-fusion possible.

What makes the new IRST particularly capable is that it operates in the long wave infrared band, which allows the sensor to passively detect and track targets well beyond the range of the APG-79 radar. “It can see a hot airplane,” Kornegay said. “It has much longer range—it is a long wave long range IRST—so it can see much further than radar can.”

Boeing has taken into account the traditional limitations of infrared sensors, where performance can be severely degraded by inclement weather—particular clouds and atmospheric moisture—when testing the new sensor, Kornegay said. The new IRST is so advanced that it still consistently generates tracks at extended ranges even taking into account inclement weather and other factors. “We’re not assuming a clear day,” Kornegay said.

A single Block III Super Hornet equipped with a Block II IRST would be able to detect and track a low observable enemy aircraft such a J-20 or Su-57 at extended ranges. However, that lone Block III jet would not be able to generate a weapons quality track on that enemy stealth aircraft because an infrared sensor cannot independently generate range data.

“If you have a single IRST ship, with your IRST, you can get a line of bearing—it’s going to see a hot spot out there, what direction it’s in, but it doesn’t have the distance. You don’t have a weapons quality track,” Kornegay said. “Now if you combine two aircraft, the fusion algorithm, now you have lines of bearing from two different sources. Where those two sources cross, the algorithm is going to compute a weapons quality track on that aircraft. So that’s a huge advantage for the warfighter to see that long before you’re in the enemy’s radar range.”

Indeed, as Gillian noted, the IRST is explicitly a counter-stealth development designed to defeat enemy low observable aircraft. “If the enemy aircraft coming at you is low radar cross section—low radar signature—it is still emitting a heat signature,” Kornegay said. “So it helps us as the enemies are starting to develop their stealth aircraft. It helps us to defeat that by moving outside of that X-band range.”

The U.S. Navy demonstrated the capability of the networked IRST, DTP-N and TTNT during the service’s Fleet Exercise 2017 onboard a pair of specially modified Super Hornets. The feedback from the naval aviators who flew during the exercise was that the capability was “eye-watering”—they were developing weapons quality tracks on targets that they had never seen before, Kornegay said.

Capt. David ‘DW’ Kindley, the Naval Air Systems Command’s (NAVAIR) F/A-18 and EA-18G Program Office (PMA-265) program manager, said that he could not talk about the specific types of platforms that the Navy practiced against during Fleet Exercise 2017. “Can’t talk about specific experiments and specific threats, but IRST is designed to be a long-range counter-stealth technology,” Kindley said.

Indeed, the Block I IRST was so effective during Fleet Exercise 2017 and other tests that the U.S. Air Force—which has traditionally been the Pentagon’s leading proponent of stealth technology—is planning on buying 130 of the pods for its Boeing F-15 Eagle fleet as a counter to emerging enemy stealth aircraft. Thus, ironically, the best counter to fifth-generation threats is a fourth-generation fighter equipped with new sensors and networking capability.


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: uskumar and 55 guests