Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

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Vivek K
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Post by Vivek K »

I love the comments. We need more criticism of the corrupt procurement practices.
Haridas
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Post by Haridas »

chola wrote:^^^ Why unless extraordinarily inexpensive maybe? Every rupee should be spent on the local product when it is available as an option.

What can the MiG-29 do that Tejas can't?
What Tejas can't do ==> 20 Mig29 can take to sky in a year. During that time Tejas can play in the womb of mother HAL.

As my friend RD Sharma used to say : A breast in hand is worth two in the bra.
chola
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Post by chola »

^^^ I like your friend's train of thought!

Though not necessarily his views on the Fulcrum vs the Tejas.
sankum
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Post by sankum »

These 21 mig 29 upg will serve IAF for 15 years plus only as compared to new fighters which serve for 40 to 50 years.
The old 60 mig 29 upg which were inducted in 1987 onwards will serve till 2032 i.e, 45 years which is flying hours of only 90 per year per fighter for the total life is 4000 flying hours. These new mig 29 will be able to fly 240 hours a year giving average flying time of 125hours/ year for 80 aircraft. The supporting infrastructure is already there.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Post by Rakesh »

[Image Of The Day]

Just A HJT-16 Trainer Aircraft With A Cool Paintjob. Period.
https://www.spansen.com/2020/04/just-hj ... -cool.html

The repainted U2515 airframe was prepped up for display at the 1996 edition of Aero India, the biennial Air show held at the Yelahanka Airbase in, then, Bangalore. The U-2515 airframe, in service with the Indian Air Force [IAF], is a Mk. II variant of the aircraft, with an improved power-plant and weapon delivery capability.

Image
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Post by Rakesh »

I cannot find the Aero India thread, so posting here....lots of old pictures from Aero India 1999.

Click on the link below to see the Twitter thread....

https://twitter.com/kikkeriv/status/128 ... 27008?s=20 ----> Lockdown forced me to unlock a treasure (for me) of Aero India Photographs right from the inaugural event in 1996. When a camera was still a luxury from my perspective, all these were borrowed from a good 'friend'!! Lucky to get close to the metal birds!!
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Post by Indranil »

Introducing NAL Saras Mk2 tractor version. I hope they take the pragmatic approach of using the 228 NGs cockpit and landing gear (if required).

Image
Image
Image

They are retaining the same engine.
ramana
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Post by ramana »

So any reasons given for dropping the old pusher configuration?
Indranil
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Post by Indranil »

The Saras Mk-2 program has been reviewed at regular
intervals by the Project Monitoring
Committee including participation
form stake holders. During the year,
considerable progress was achieved
in the design of Saras Mk-2 (19
seater aircraft) towards optimization
of configuration. The drag reduction
and aerodynamic efficiency, reduction in Operating Empty Weight
(OEW) and increase in useful load,
improvements in Flight Control
System (FCS) and general systems
were addressed. Significant progress was made with preliminary
layouts, preliminary configuration
documentation, CFD analysis, wind
tunnel testing, configuration design,
performance estimation, stability
and controllability and critical load
cases for structural design has been
achieved for Saras Mk-2 aircraft.
nachiket
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Post by nachiket »

So they are starting from scratch it seems as far as the design is concerned. Hopefully the lessons learned during the Mk1 r&d will help push this along faster, as long as sufficient funds are provided, which is a big if.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Post by Indranil »

Actually not. If you look carefully, it looks like they are reusing the entire fuselage, LGs and empennage. The horizontal tail has been moved lower from the classic T, bot both the VT and HT look the same. If you have followed their progression with the rudder, the horn-balanced rudder makes sense. Wonder why no winglets.

Image

Image

I have a feeling that they are going to have more fuel carrying capacity. That MLG fairing is huge. I think they are retaining the whole fuel tank from there. The new wingbox should add extra capacity. The wings will be new for sure. But the tender is already out for studying and implementing the nacelles for the engines. This will be relatively straight-forward given that PT6A-67A in tractor formation is a very well understood. In the pusher format the oil cooler gave NAL severe headaches. They had to limit the engine's output and hence the MTOW severely. It took them years to solve the problem. Another problem that they had was the operations of the flaps. Hopefully, they can solve this one easily too.

I really hope that NAL and HAL work more closely on this than before. HAL can really help with optimized and certified subsystems from the 228. I hope HAL sees the potential of Saras. Currently, it doesn't see the need given its 228 offering. But, Saras has great growth potential which 228 doesn't.
This could HAL's "Bandeirante moment". Is it is coincidence the Embraer moved to Bandeirante after the Vector? It will be chance for HAL to come out of the shadows of Dornier and put some distance between itself and (say) the Tatas who can build to print.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Post by sajaym »

This is a great development for the transport aircraft program in India. I see great opportunities for this design to be scaled up into > stretched > 4 engine turboprop > turbofan versions. The next logical progression from this model is something of the dimensions of the Dornier 328, which also had multi-propulsion options. And thus we will have our own MTA!

Image
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Post by tsarkar »

A commercial aircraft needs to be extremely efficient for operators to make profits. Vayudoot operating Do 228 failed. No private commercial airline signed up for Do 228.

Most airlines being private these days, Saras will need performance and certifications for operators to buy it.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Post by tandav »

Fuel efficiency is not the only criteria. The an important criteria is to be able to operate from much smaller airfields. Can we have a 50 seater (Volvo Bus Equivalent) which can safely land in 200m airfield? There is a large market for such aircraft max speed can be 300-500 KMPH
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Post by tsarkar »

Rakesh wrote:I cannot find the Aero India thread, so posting here....lots of old pictures from Aero India 1999.

Click on the link below to see the Twitter thread....

https://twitter.com/kikkeriv/status/128 ... 27008?s=20 ----> Lockdown forced me to unlock a treasure (for me) of Aero India Photographs right from the inaugural event in 1996. When a camera was still a luxury from my perspective, all these were borrowed from a good 'friend'!! Lucky to get close to the metal birds!!
Kh-29 missile on the MiG-27
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Post by tsarkar »

tandav wrote:Fuel efficiency is not the only criteria. The an important criteria is to be able to operate from much smaller airfields. Can we have a 50 seater (Volvo Bus Equivalent) which can safely land in 200m airfield? There is a large market for such aircraft max speed can be 300-500 KMPH
Are there any published statistics indicating a “large market for such aircraft“ that you are referring to?

Also the earlier Saras iteration was 19 seater. If the fuselage stays the same, then so will the number of passengers

The Indian traveller is most cost conscious and won’t pay more for convenience. There is a bunch of failed regional airlines like Air Costa and others that proves this point.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category: ... s_of_India
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Post by JTull »

tandav wrote:Fuel efficiency is not the only criteria. The an important criteria is to be able to operate from much smaller airfields. Can we have a 50 seater (Volvo Bus Equivalent) which can safely land in 200m airfield? There is a large market for such aircraft max speed can be 300-500 KMPH

That makes fuel efficiency even more relevant. Fewer fare-paying seats et al.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Post by tandav »

tsarkar wrote:
tandav wrote:Fuel efficiency is not the only criteria. The an important criteria is to be able to operate from much smaller airfields. Can we have a 50 seater (Volvo Bus Equivalent) which can safely land in 200m airfield? There is a large market for such aircraft max speed can be 300-500 KMPH
Are there any published statistics indicating a “large market for such aircraft“ that you are referring to?

Also the earlier Saras iteration was 19 seater. If the fuselage stays the same, then so will the number of passengers

The Indian traveller is most cost conscious and won’t pay more for convenience. There is a bunch of failed regional airlines like Air Costa and others that proves this point.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category: ... s_of_India
By large market I am talking about the present travelers of Volvos themselves... If we can make a turbo prop with similar capacity and low and slow (200KMPH) is viable at say 2X the VOLVO fare then I think a large aviation market will develop. Thinking literally Volvo bus with wings
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Post by Philip »

Ru has started receiving two IL-112Vs light transports ,replacements for its popular AN-32 "med." transport in IAF colours. We will need over 150 aircraft like the C-295 to replace the exg.AN-32s. Why the C-295 deal with Tatas hasn't yet been sealed after years of delay defeats the very purpose of self-reliance.

https://tass.com/defense/1208825
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Post by arvin »

https://www.nal.res.in/medias/content_i ... rframe.pdf

Tender document for design of Saras mk2 tractor config. Good amount of details regarding work packages which have been split into 4 parts.
Did not see this posted in this thread or Transport thread. Bid open date was 29th Oct.

1. Detail design & Engineering for Fuselage structure.
2. Detail design & Engineering for Wing structure.
3. Detail design & Engineering for Vertical and Horizontal Fin structure.
4. Detail design & Engineering for Control Surfaces structure.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Post by ks_sachin »

Philip wrote:Ru has started receiving two IL-112Vs light transports ,replacements for its popular AN-32 "med." transport in IAF colours. We will need over 150 aircraft like the C-295 to replace the exg.AN-32s. Why the C-295 deal with Tatas hasn't yet been sealed after years of delay defeats the very purpose of self-reliance.

https://tass.com/defense/1208825
So are you saying that we should go in for the IL-112 or
Are you saying that we should expedite the C-295.

Or are you saying that as the C-295 is delayed so much we should make an interim purchase of the IL?

Your post confuses me as to its intent?
Indranil
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Post by Indranil »

More details: Mk2 will carry much more fuel (1832 kgs from current 1568 kgs). With a much larger wing (31.2m^2 from current 25.7^2) and much higher aspect ratio of 10, its ferry range will improve significantly to 2400 kms (with 45 mins reserve). For brochure numbers: 2700 kms.

It will cruise at 400 kmph with a top speed of 550 kmph 25000'. It's service ceiling will be 30,000' although it can climb to 35,000'. Expect endurance of well over 10 hours. Max. rate of climb > 2160fps

Image
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Post by arvin »

Nice.
Since it's a major redesign going by recent tender, any chance of putting floats
to make it sea capable like twin otter 300.
Engine power of saras (895 kw) is almost double that of twin otter .
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Post by Indranil »

Typically, that does not require big changes to the airframe. But it places restrictions on the envelop and a lot of time in qualifications.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Post by Kartik »

Indranil wrote:More details: Mk2 will carry much more fuel (1832 kgs from current 1568 kgs). With a much larger wing (31.2m^2 from current 25.7^2) and much higher aspect ratio of 10, its ferry range will improve significantly to 2400 kms (with 45 mins reserve). For brochure numbers: 2700 kms.

It will cruise at 400 kmph with a top speed of 550 kmph 25000'. It's service ceiling will be 30,000' although it can climb to 35,000'. Expect endurance of well over 10 hours. Max. rate of climb > 2160fps

Image
This forum needs a button to allow one to like posts. :) Thank you for these details!

The increased fuel, wing area and aspect ratio will all improve the range which in turn will mean a much more useful and usable turboprop. This is what the Saras Mk1 should have been in the first place. The question though will remain on it's viability when HAL will have to manufacture and support the type in both military and civil variants.

Without getting too deep into the comparison with the C-295, what will be the business case for the full scale development of the Saras Mk2 when the the C-295 is likely to be built in India by TASL with a guaranteed order of at least 56? I'm afraid that with NAL looking for another firm to take on the full scale design and development, this may just be restricted to a paper design.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Post by Indranil »

May I also say that the Saras Mk2 is quite a looker. The proportions are just right. Saras Mk1 looked stubby to me.

Currently, the plan is for production at HAL. But I hear murmurs of pushback from HAL owing to competition to its "own" Do228.

If I were HAL, I would slowly wean off of the 228 production line and ramp up on Saras. Dornier has placed more faith in TASL. TASL builds almost all of the airframe of the 228NG and these are assembled in Germany. If I were a civilian operator, why wouldn't I buy directly from Dornier? But, that's just me. On the other hand HAL can become the sole manufacturer of Saras.

I would also be super excited if a private player comes forward for serial production of Saras. That will foster competition and remove the chance of any stepmotherly treatment. There is place for both the Do-228 and Saras.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Post by arvin »

Indranil wrote:Typically, that does not require big changes to the airframe. But it places restrictions on the envelop and a lot of time in qualifications.
Thanks. I wish they would come later as versions mk3 or Mk4.
Important that land version mk2 comes fast.
Mahindra and Viking air have a tie up to promote the twin otter in India. With Do228 included, we have 3 planes in 19 seater category competing.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Post by Cybaru »

Indranil wrote:May I also say that the Saras Mk2 is quite a looker. The proportions are just right. Saras Mk1 looked stubby to me.

Currently, the plan is for production at HAL. But I hear murmurs of pushback from HAL owing to competition to its "own" Do228.

If I were HAL, I would slowly wean off of the 228 production line and ramp up on Saras. Dornier has placed more faith in TASL. TASL builds almost all of the airframe of the 228NG and these are assembled in Germany. If I were a civilian operator, why wouldn't I buy directly from Dornier? But, that's just me. On the other hand HAL can become the sole manufacturer of Saras.

I would also be super excited if a private player comes forward for serial production of Saras. That will foster competition and remove the chance of any stepmotherly treatment. There is place for both the Do-228 and Saras.
Is HAL building any of the 228NG stuff or is it only Dornier?

Yeah - having both Saras and 228 should be good for HAL. They won't cannibalize each other. Even if they did, they make both, so profitability will be maintained.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Post by Rakesh »

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Post by Vips »

In a first, Tata to build military aircraft in India as it acquires IP rights.

In a first for the industry, the Tata Group will develop and manufacture a military aircraft in India, having acquired intellectual property rights for a German-origin platform. The plan, ET has reliably learnt, is to integrate indigenous sensors and payloads to convert it into an intelligence gathering asset.

The high-altitude, twin-engine aircraft, capable of playing multiple roles from signal intelligence to cross-border surveillance, is currently in the final stages of testing in Germany. It is likely to arrive in India in the next three months for further integration.

This would be the first time that an Indian private entity is looking at making a full military-grade aircraft, which until now has been the domain of the state owned Hindustan Aeronautics .

Tata Advanced Systems (TASL) will showcase the capabilities of the aircraft at the Aero India in Bengaluru next week. Though the company has not shared details of the design, the aircraft is likely to be based on the Grob G 180 SPn – a German made jet that never reached serial production due to financial strains.

Image

TASL is yet to get any confirm orders for the aircraft in India, but top executives say the investment has been done keeping in mind future requirements of the armed forces. A manufacturing plant will be set up for serial production in the future, they added.

The company sources said the aircraft it is developing is designed for flying at 41,000 feet altitude with a maximum altitude of 45,000 feet and can be used for intelligence gathering, surveillance and reconnaissance (ISR) purposes. It is designed to land on grass and gravel. The low-wing, twin-engine composite aircraft is expected to have a range of 1800 nautical miles and 6-7 hours endurance with a payload capacity in excess of 1,000 kg.

“We are now focusing on modifying the aircraft to take special payloads so that it can undertake a demonstration of surveillance capabilities. For a country like India, with multiple mountain ranges spread across the country, including on international borders, this capacity is extremely vital. India has been dependent on foreign suppliers to meet this need,” said Sukaran Singh, MD of TASL.

He added that acquiring such technology will enable India to modify and t any payloads it wants within the country, reducing dependence on foreign suppliers. “With TASL bringing this aircraft technology to the table, India will have a cutting edge air-borne surveillance platform, with control over the software, customisation as well as maintenance, based within the country,” he said.

The need for effective border surveillance has been a focus after recent tensions with China in Ladakh.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Post by Mollick.R »

Not sure about if this news belongs to this thread or not...... still though...........

In a first, Tata to build military aircraft in India as it acquires IP rights
By Manu Pubby, ET Bureau Last Updated: Feb 01, 2021, 09:47 AM IST

In a first for the industry, the Tata Group will develop and manufacture a military aircraft in India, having acquired intellectual property rights for a German-origin platform. The plan, ET has reliably learnt, is to integrate indigenous sensors and payloads to convert it into an intelligence gathering asset. :D :D :D

The high-altitude, twin-engine aircraft, capable of playing multiple roles from signal intelligence to cross-border surveillance, is currently in the final stages of testing in Germany. It is likely to arrive in India in the next three months for further integration.
Tata Advanced Systems (TASL) will showcase the capabilities of the aircraft at the AeroIndia in Bengaluru next week. Though the company has not shared details of the design, the aircraft is likely to be based on the Grob G 180 SPn – a German-made jet that never reached serial production due to financial strains

TASL is yet to get any firm orders for the aircraft in India, but top executives say the investment has been done keeping in mind future requirements of the armed forces. A manufacturing plant will be set up for serial production in the future, they added.

The company sources said the aircraft it is developing is designed for flying at 41,000 feet altitude with a maximum altitude of 45,000 feet and can be used for intelligence gathering, surveillance and reconnaissance (ISR) purposes. It is designed to land on grass and gravel. The low-wing, twin-engine composite aircraft is expected to have a range of 1800 nautical miles and 6-7 hours endurance with a payload capacity in excess of 1,000 kg.

“We are now focusing on modifying the aircraft to fit special payloads so that it can undertake a demonstration of surveillance capabilities. For a country like India, with multiple mountain ranges spread across the country, including on international borders, this capacity is extremely vital. India has been dependent on foreign suppliers to meet this need,” said Sukaran Singh, MD of TASL.

He added that acquiring such technology will enable India to modify and fit any payloads it wants within the country, reducing dependence on foreign suppliers. “With TASL bringing this aircraft technology to the table, India will have a cutting edge air-borne surveillance platform, with control over the software, customisation as well as maintenance, based within the country,” he said.

The need for effective border surveillance has been a focus after recent tensions with China in Ladakh.


https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 620506.cms
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Post by ArjunPandit »

Mollick.R wrote:Grob G180 SPn

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grob_G180_SPn
could it also be used for civilian usage?
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Post by Mollick.R »

ArjunPandit wrote:
Mollick.R wrote:Grob G180 SPn

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grob_G180_SPn
could it also be used for civilian usage?
Pilot + 9 or 10 pac capacity.
If unit cost & cost to operate is very low can be considered for connecting our T3 city small airports.........
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Post by Bart S »

ArjunPandit wrote:
Mollick.R wrote:Grob G180 SPn

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grob_G180_SPn
could it also be used for civilian usage?
It is a civilian plane, DDM headlines notwithstanding.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Post by Ashokk »

Lot of details about the Grob G180 SPn
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Post by Mollick.R »

lets hope Tatas makes something out of this purchase.............

Mahindras jumped into it all most similar way, but failed...................


DECEMBER-2009
Mahindra buys major stake in Australian firms
Making an entry into the aerospace business, auto major Mahindra & Mahindra (M&M) on Tuesday said it had picked up 75.1 per cent stake each in two Australian aerospace firms for Rs. 175-crore and planned to make aircraft and allied components to service the global market.

In a joint acquisition with Kotak Private Equity, Mahindra Aerospace Pvt. Ltd. (a unit of M&M) bought majority stake in component-maker Aerostaff Australia and general aircraft manufacturer Gippsland Aeronautics.

“Over five-years, we believe that we could build as many as 475 aircraft in the 2-20-seater range and expect a peak revenue of about Rs. 650-crore,” Mahindra Systech Sector and Member of the Group Management Board, M&M, Hemant Luthra told reporters here. The company is setting up a plant in Bangalore to complement these acquisitions and provide dual sharing and benefits to customers.

https://www.thehindu.com/business/compa ... 853553.ece


July-2019
Australian aviation regulator temporarily grounds GippsAero GA8 following plane crash in Sweden
MUMBAI: Australian aviation safety regulator CASA has temporarily grounded small aircraft GippsAero GA8 following the reported crash of one such plane in Sweden that killed nine persons last week.There are 63 GA8 aircraft registered in Australia out of a worldwide fleet of 228, according to the Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA). In 2008, Mahindra & Mahindra bought Australia's GippsAero, which makes the eight-seater single-engine GA8 Airvan.

https://www.newindianexpress.com/busine ... 07777.html


November-2020
Mahindra shutters plane manufacturing facility in Australia; seeks buyers

Mahindra Group on Tuesday said it has closed down its aircraft manufacturing business in Australia and is scouting for a buyer, more than a decade after venturing into high-cost plane-making business.

The decision also comes little over a year after one of the planes, manufactured at the Australian facility, crashed in Sweden killing nine persons.

In 2009, Mahindra Group acquired 75.1 per cent stake each in two Australian aerospace firms, Gippsland Aeronautics (Gipps Aero) and Aerostaff Australia, for Rs 175 crore as part of its plans to manufacture aircraft and allied components to service global market.While Gippsland Aeronautics is into aircraft manufacturing, Aerostaff is into manufacturing aircraft components. "We have shut down our Gipps Aero business, which was into the manufacturing of 8- and 10-seater planes in Australia," Mahindra & Mahindra Deputy Managing Director and Group CFO Anish Shah told reporters in the post-earnings media call.

https://www.business-standard.com/artic ... 663_1.html
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Post by Mollick.R »

Some more interpreting articles...........

1. Has Internal Conflict destroyed GippsAero?
https://www.australianflying.com.au/lat ... -gippsaero
this sl.no 1 , article is a must must read...........


2. Australia’s GippsAero Buffeted By Economic Fall-Out From COVID-19
http://www.smartaviation-apac.com/2020/ ... -covid-19/


3. GippsAero Shuts Down Airvan Manufacturing
https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... ufacturing
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Post by sooraj »

Vayu Aerospace Review
@ReviewVayu
·
15m


HAL, Naini & Genser Aerospace/Angas sign MoU to cooperate in Design/Development of the RAJAS platform

Gensers been spearheading the design/dev of a Light Business Jet & showcased its progress at AI’21

Aircraft is named Genjet GLJ3X1 RAJAS..rhyming with TEJAS, SARAS, TAPAS

Image
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Vayu Aerospace Review
@ReviewVayu
·
13m
2/3
RAJAS is also envisioned in different roles/versions; RAJAS-Kuleen for extended range & RAJAS–Rakshan for Special Mission Roles/Light Weight Special Cargo, VIP, Aerial Photography/Recce, Maritime/Overland SAR etc.

A full-scale Mock up was built earlier to get physical feel.

Image
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Vayu Aerospace Review
@ReviewVayu
·
13m
3/3
Genser's been working since 2015 on dev of a 2 pilot +7 seat Light Business Jet, complying to FAR 23, 5T all up weight, twin turbofan engine of 9KN each, max cruise speed 0.79 Mach, range 2250 NM.

Pix of Test Structure designed for static/fatigue testing of RAJAS wing.

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Indranil
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Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Post by Indranil »

Absolutely awesome. But wouldn't fitting Saras Mk1 with 15kN turbofan engines work? Why reinvent the wheel?
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