Indian ASAT Test

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby SSridhar » 30 Mar 2019 06:54

disha wrote:I just do not know from where the rumour spread that it was microsat-R ! I do not remember Modi in his address said that particular name.

A DRDO source was quoted. [Added later] See below too.

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby SSridhar » 30 Mar 2019 06:59

Debris from anti-satellite test to disintegrate in 45 days: official - Dinakar Peri, The Hindu

The satellite targeted with an Anti-Satellite (ASAT) missile under Mission Shakti has broken up into at least 270 pieces, most of which are expected to disintegrate within 45 days, Defence sources said on Friday.

“The satellite has disintegrated into at least 270 pieces which has also been confirmed by the North American Aerospace Defence Command (NORAD). One of them is a large piece that has been deorbited and is estimated to be completely degraded by April 5,” the official said. The rest of the pieces are estimated to disintegrate in less than 45 days, he stated.

Being in the Low Earth Orbit, the debris would fall towards earth and burn up as soon as they enter the atmosphere.

Imaging satellite

Officials identified the targeted satellite as Microsat-R, an imaging satellite that was launched by the Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) on January 24 using a Polar Satellite Launch Vehicle. The satellite, weighing 740 kg, was placed in an orbit of 274 km above earth.

On Wednesday, the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) shot down Microsat-R with a modified exo-atmospheric missile of the ballistic missile defence at an altitude of 300 km.

Being monitored

The ASAT test was tracked by sensors of various agencies. Upon impact, data transmission from the satellite stopped and electro-optic systems confirmed an explosion, the official said.

Other ISRO satellites and systems too noticed the breakup of Microsat-R, another official said, adding that the debris was being monitored.

Separately, U.S. officials in Washington have confirmed the test and the debris generated. Lt. Gen. David Thompson, vice-commander of the U.S. Air Force Space Command, said in a hearing before a subcommittee of the U.S. Senate Armed Services Committee on Wednesday that soon after the test, their agencies began collecting information about the break-up of the vehicle and are “tracking about 270 different objects in the debris field.”

“Likely, that number is going to grow as the debris field spreads out and we collect more sensor information,” he informed the committee and added that the debris posed no immediate threat to the International Space Station or most other satellites in Low Earth Orbit.

Debris pose significant risk to satellites and other systems launched into orbit as they last for a long time especially in higher orbits. For instance, China’s 2007 ASAT test in an orbit of around 800 km created around 3,000 pieces of debris, of which 616 have decayed. The rest are still in orbit.

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby ramana » 30 Mar 2019 07:08

sudhan wrote:Sandeep Unnithan has an exclusive pic of the TEL for the ASAT missile made by Tata SED

Image

The dummy looks like it has A5's 1st and 2nd stages..



I don't understand how you can have exclusive pictures and copyright of national assets!!!

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby hnair » 30 Mar 2019 08:02

So by 2020, a first-rate space power with a second-strike sea based nuclear deterrent patrol, a mid-course intercept capability and having a powerful military that willingly take on two nuclear armed neighbors in combat is still not a “recognized nuclear power” and is “a concern for proliferation”

Wonder how NPA ayatollahs are not feeling any job insecurity when proof reading the rubbish they write up annually.

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby hnair » 30 Mar 2019 08:16

Those rocket motor casings, is there any confirmation they are not the regular A4 steel ones? The red heat management paint has been used in AgniII from Strategic Force Command stocks in the past

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby ramana » 30 Mar 2019 09:06

Firex paint.

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby Singha » 30 Mar 2019 09:30

dont know what is the credibility of the source, but this claims to be a physics simulation of the intercept and subsequent debris cloud.
they have assumed the missile climbed a bit higher and struck from top to force the debris down

https://twitter.com/nktpnd/status/1111707335590899712

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby JayS » 30 Mar 2019 09:41

Singha wrote:dont know what is the credibility of the source, but this claims to be a physics simulation of the intercept and subsequent debris cloud.
they have assumed the missile climbed a bit higher and struck from top to force the debris down

https://twitter.com/nktpnd/status/1111707335590899712


I was actually expecting that the interceptor would have struck at an angle pointing downwards. I agree that its a reasonable assumption to take, as what mentioned in the video. Its rather obvious actually.

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby ramana » 30 Mar 2019 09:51

JayS,
Mission Shakti has re-established DRDO as a primary center of excellence.

Folks will be hard pressed to come up with equirements creep.
One big takeaway.

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby syam » 30 Mar 2019 10:19

Looks like few pieces of debris heading to mars. :rotfl:

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby tandav » 30 Mar 2019 10:30

JayS wrote:
Singha wrote:dont know what is the credibility of the source, but this claims to be a physics simulation of the intercept and subsequent debris cloud.
they have assumed the missile climbed a bit higher and struck from top to force the debris down

https://twitter.com/nktpnd/status/1111707335590899712


I was actually expecting that the interceptor would have struck at an angle pointing downwards. I agree that its a reasonable assumption to take, as what mentioned in the video. Its rather obvious actually.


To deorbit a satellite the best way is to decrease tangential velocity which technically in the case of an ASAT will only happen in headon mode.

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby arun » 30 Mar 2019 11:24

X Posted from the India-Russia: News & Analysis thread.

The full text of the Russian statement on Mission Shakthi ASAT test by India from the Facebook page of the Russian Embassy in India. It is self-described as “Comment by the Information and Press Department” though of what eg: Russian Embassy / Russian Foreign Ministry etc, is not known:

ON THE TEST OF ANTI-SATELLITE WEAPONS CONDUCTED BY INDIA

We noted the test of anti-satellite weapons conducted by #India on March 27, as a result of which an #Indian spacecraft - a target - in a low earth orbit was hit by an interceptor ballistic missile. We highlight the nondirectedness of this test against any specific country declared by the Indian leadership, as well as the reassurance of the continuity of New #Delhi foreign policy to prevent the deployment of weapons in outer space and thereby the development of an arms race in it.

At the same time, we have to state that this action of India has been largely the result of the substantially degraded situation in the field of arms control. #Russia has repeatedly warned that the destructive actions of the #USA to undermine the entire architecture of international security and strategic stability, including unilateral and unlimited development of the US global anti-missile defense systems, as well as the reluctance to abandon plans for the weaponization of outer space, make other states think about improving their own equal potentials in the interests of strengthening their national security. We urge #Washington to take a responsible stand, come to senses and drop the insane, and most importantly - absolutely unrealizable - the idea of universal military domination. It is still possible to stop the arms race unfolding in various regions of the world. It is important to assist the responsible states in maintaining an adequate level of international security and stability.

Russia, for its part, intends to continue to make every necessary effort to prevent an arms race in outer space. The idea of developing a multilateral legally binding instrument for keeping outer space peaceful based on the #Russian-#Chinese draft treaty with the support of a solid group of like-minded nations to prevent the weaponization of outer space, the use or threat of force against space objects, as well as the multilateral initiative - political obligations not to be the first to place weapons in space are becoming particularly important. We offer our Indian partners to actively join these joint efforts of the international community.


From Facebook here:

Clicky

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby Muns » 30 Mar 2019 12:52

sudhan wrote:
Muns wrote:
Guys, I took to writing a chaiwalla article last night,...



Hats off to your efforts, Muns Ji!

IMHO, we could add a few lines that explain that satellites in LEO would be travelling lot faster then ICBMs and IRBMs at 600 - 1000 km altitude. In short, this is a monumental achievement for DRDO and India given this was the first attempt. And, we have a credible interceptor for intercepting ICBMs and IRBMs in outer space..


Sudhan, Thank you for the feedback and will definitely incorporate this into the article.

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby JayS » 30 Mar 2019 13:11

tandav wrote:
JayS wrote:
I was actually expecting that the interceptor would have struck at an angle pointing downwards. I agree that its a reasonable assumption to take, as what mentioned in the video. Its rather obvious actually.


To deorbit a satellite the best way is to decrease tangential velocity which technically in the case of an ASAT will only happen in headon mode.


Agree but, head on collision will have higher probability of some parts flying out in higher orbit than a KV colliding at a slightly downward angle like 20deg or so. That wont reduce the tangential component by much while giving lesser chances of debris flying out in higher orbits. I'm sure DRDO must have done sinulations to optimize the angle to reduce debris.

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby Austin » 30 Mar 2019 14:46

Fall Out of ASAT Test ?

USA Denied Visa to Top Indian DRDO Defence Scientists


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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby Prem Kumar » 30 Mar 2019 15:07

"Let me say clearly it was detected and characterised and reported by Air Force systems," he said. (Disha: In other words, rest assured that we are doing our jobs and by the way can the senators now approve the budget for a pop-corn machine and a beer bar at the base since HBO GOT is coming?)


Disha: loved your wit! You should publish it as a rebuttal verbatim in news portals like OpIndia. Rahul Roushan will appreciate this kind of sarcasm. Am serious.

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby kit » 30 Mar 2019 16:06

ramana wrote:JayS,
Mission Shakti has re-established DRDO as a primary center of excellence.
.


DRDO is the new ISRO , kudos to them 8)

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby kit » 30 Mar 2019 16:10

ramana wrote:
sudhan wrote:Sandeep Unnithan has an exclusive pic of the TEL for the ASAT missile made by Tata SED
The dummy looks like it has A5's 1st and 2nd stages..

I don't understand how you can have exclusive pictures and copyright of national assets!!!


trusted sources and he is required to write material as pertains to the public domain. In the country where photoshopping/editing is rampant with fake news, this is to be expected.

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby arun » 30 Mar 2019 17:45

Austin wrote:Fall Out of ASAT Test ?

USA Denied Visa to Top Indian DRDO Defence Scientists




Visa denial to DRDO officials including DRDO Chairman Dr G Satheesh Reddy IMO does not have anything to do with the Mission Shakthi ASAT test as the denial predated the ASAT test by a few weeks. Below question mentions “three weeks”. Possibly CAATSA?

Anyway weird answer by Robert Palladino. Possibly in the disjointed style of the Trump Administration, one bit of the State Department failed to communicate with another bit of the State Department about a visa denial despite being invited by another department of the Trump Administration.

Text transcript to go with the video posted earlier:

Department Press Briefing - March 26, 2019
Robert Palladino
Deputy Spokesperson
Department Press Briefing
Washington, DC
March 26, 2019 ………………………..

MR PALLADINO: I don’t have anything further on that today.

India? Sure, Tejinder. Go ahead, please.

QUESTION: Is there a shift in U.S.-India defense relationship? There has been denial of visas to Indian defense officials and that also after extending an invite to them. I have two examples from last three weeks. One is the secretary DRDO, Dr. Satheesh, and he was here even in December with the Indian defense minister. And the second one is Dr. Guruprasad, DG production, and out of a team of five he was only one who was denied visa. So these both were not coming first time or any clearance issues. So is there a shift in the policy? Because I know that you don’t talk about visas from the podium, but please, is there a policy why these people are getting denied the visas after then invite?

MR PALLADINO: The United States – no, okay. The United States-India defense and security cooperation is rapidly expanding as part of our deepening strategic partnership, and India is one of the premier security partners in the Indo-Pacific region. So as part of that effort, exchanges, reciprocal visits between American and Indian defense officials – they’re increasing at an unprecedented pace. We – the United States, we seek to expand our defense and security cooperation with India, and that includes defense and security officials. And I’ll stop there.


From US State Department website:

Department Press Briefing - March 26, 2019

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby SriKumar » 30 Mar 2019 18:23

Singha wrote:dont know what is the credibility of the source, but this claims to be a physics simulation of the intercept and subsequent debris cloud.
they have assumed the missile climbed a bit higher and struck from top to force the debris down

https://twitter.com/nktpnd/status/1111707335590899712
they claim they deduced the target was microsat-R based on the notam issued previous day.

The interesting thing is that this is a head-on collision meaning the relative velocity between microsat and vehicle is higher than microsat velocity. Meaning the Vehicle has a higher capability. They report 9.8 km/sec but this is probably a guess. The downward pointing trajectory is an assumption and they mention it as such.

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby kit » 30 Mar 2019 18:50

http://idrw.org/did-loss-of-a-spy-satellite-pushed-india-to-develop-its-own-anti-satellite-missile-system/#more-196546
This gets more interesting., and was actually my first thought when the incident happened. India does need a laser weapon to target satellites

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby nam » 30 Mar 2019 18:58

You need very powerful laser to knock off a satellite at hundreds kms. Moreover it is not star war style single shot. You have keep the laser beam focused on a satellite moving at 10km/sec. i.e 600KM per minute. You have to keep the airspace clear during this.

Can you do all these in secret?

Cheaper to fire a rocket at it.

Waste of resources to built a ASAT laser.

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby Austin » 30 Mar 2019 19:06

The advantage of Laser is it is cheap compared to sending a missile to kill the Sat and you dont have to physically destory the satellite as the ASAT does but damage its optics or electronics by focussing enough energy on the satellite.

The disadvantage is laser suffer from atmospheric attenuation and weather impacts it and you need a huge source of energy to pump those laser.

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby nam » 30 Mar 2019 19:30

I don't the numbers to prove as there are no such laser system operational.. atleast publicly where data can be gleaned.

US fired a SM3 at a satellite from a operational ship. If laser is cheaper than that, we would have seen all SM2/SM3 on US ships being replaced with lasers.

Even now the laser being fielded as CIWS. Not long ranged. A chemical powered rocket will ALWAYS be cheaper than a energy converted in to another energy source i.e. laser. Not to mention, missiles have been built in thousands.

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby srin » 30 Mar 2019 19:35

JayS wrote:
tandav wrote:
To deorbit a satellite the best way is to decrease tangential velocity which technically in the case of an ASAT will only happen in headon mode.


Agree but, head on collision will have higher probability of some parts flying out in higher orbit than a KV colliding at a slightly downward angle like 20deg or so. That wont reduce the tangential component by much while giving lesser chances of debris flying out in higher orbits. I'm sure DRDO must have done sinulations to optimize the angle to reduce debris.


I remember playing around with Kerbal space long time ago and this changing orbits thingy made me tear my hair out.

Here's my understanding, and I'd be glad to be corrected on this: even if a piece of the satellite goes higher, because the velocity will be lesser than before (since it is head on collision), it will have to fall to a lower orbit suited to its velocity and will burn up sooner.

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby UlanBatori » 30 Mar 2019 19:56

A chemical powered rocket will ALWAYS be cheaper than a energy converted in to another energy source i.e. laser. Not to mention, missiles have been built in thousands.

namji: A good thermodynamic argument so I thought about it. If the laser is powered by a nuclear reactor this is not true. And while missiles have been built by the thousands, any given ship can only carry so many, a pretty small number. When those are gone... the ship is just a target.

Laser conversion efficiencies today are over 38% (for sure, this is the efficiency demonstrated from broadband sunlight to red laser circa 2005). Maybe the laser is up to 45%, from electricity generated by the nuke reactor. You may need a big capacitor but otherwise the number of shots you can take is unlimited. EZ to say this from my ignorance, of course.

HOWEVER, shooting down satellites with a laser is a no-win. You cannot focus a laser that originates from a ship, enough to burn anything on a satellite. Pretty unlikely that the dish on a ship can be big enough to focus a beam well enough to burn electronics on a satellite. I think all those "Boost-Stage Intercept" lasers were theoretically going to be flying at 10Km altitude, many 50 km away from the enemy's launch site, with a giant lumbering 747-type aircraft carrying them. Not very survivable, but if that's needed to stop nuke ICBMs I guess the plane and its crew are expendable.

The laser is the only weapon that can defend against a shower of incoming hypersonic missiles, so I hope Indian advances in the "Kali" project are not stuck on some Babu's desk while they go around chai-biscooting. This is so urgent that one cannot bring oneself to think about it.

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby vasu raya » 30 Mar 2019 20:50

One of the A4 tests, it is said to have reached 800km altitude, just to reinforce the message to the north west neighbor they should make the ASAT reach an electronic target at higher altitude while intersecting the orbit of one of their sat a few hours ahead of the sat passing that point over India.

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby kit » 30 Mar 2019 23:47

Austin wrote:The advantage of Laser is it is cheap compared to sending a missile to kill the Sat and you dont have to physically destory the satellite as the ASAT does but damage its optics or electronics by focussing enough energy on the satellite.

The disadvantage is laser suffer from atmospheric attenuation and weather impacts it and you need a huge source of energy to pump those laser.


the laser would be a lot more stealthier and hard to detect as well.. quite likely the Chinese used laser or an orbiting killer sat to knock out Indian RISAT
[Orbital Threats. China is developing sophisticated on-orbit capabilities, such as satellite inspection and repair, at least some of which could also function as a weapon] (source: Challenges to Security in Space; Defense Intelligence Agency
February 2019) ;
NRO Confirms Chinese Laser Test Illuminated U.S. Spacecraft; and this was way back in 2006 and this capability would now be exponentially higher., https://spacenews.com/nro-confirms-chinese-laser-test-illuminated-us-spacecraft/

Also quite likely the Indian government kept the whole thing under wraps at that time, not to whip up public hysteria

The American reconnaissance plane mission was indeed spying on the Indian ASAT test, they knew of the preparations and the test using their space-based sensors, they needed some parameters post-test that was done better by surveillance planes like the cobra ball.,"The Cobra Ball monitors missile-associated signals and tracks missiles during boost and re-entry phases to provide reconnaissance for treaty verification and theatre ballistic missile proliferation. The aircraft are extensively modified C-135Bs. The right wing and engines are traditionally painted black to reduce sun glare for tracking cameras." [wiki]


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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby vasu raya » 31 Mar 2019 08:16

The two sats that Chinese built and launched for TSP are the same ones that are being used to watch over post Pulwama operations? one would expect that but could well be just an assumption. One of those sats is said to be X-band, maybe similar to Israeli origin Risat2

so, why did they target Risat1 and not Risat2?

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby gunnvant » 31 Mar 2019 08:39

vasu raya wrote:The two sats that Chinese built and launched for TSP are the same ones that are being used to watch over post Pulwama operations? one would expect that but could well be just an assumption. One of those sats is said to be X-band, maybe similar to Israeli origin Risat2

so, why did they target Risat1 and not Risat2?

Is there any confirmed report about RISAT 1 targeting by Chinese, or is this a CT?

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby Kashi » 31 Mar 2019 08:42

gunnvant wrote:Is there any confirmed report about RISAT 1 targeting by Chinese, or is this a CT?


Strong suspicions that the debris field detected near RISAT 1 shortly before it malfunctioned was created by Cheen

Read here for more details

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7705&start=280#p2338006

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby gunnvant » 31 Mar 2019 08:48

Kashi wrote:
gunnvant wrote:Is there any confirmed report about RISAT 1 targeting by Chinese, or is this a CT?


Strong suspicions that the debris field detected near RISAT 1 shortly before it malfunctioned was created by Cheen

Read here for more details

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7705&start=280#p2338006


Thanks, for the link, but it still weighs in on more speculative side, there were reports of an internal explosion as well. If I vaguely remember, there were also some reports of one of the scientist involved with radar development, facing some flak after the incident, will try to find the report and put the link here.

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby esommuk » 31 Mar 2019 12:45

I am strictly against contributing to more space debris just for showcasing weaponisation and deterrence. This will soon lead to ocean plastics like situation. The space is already overcrowded. In any case every commercial space launch leaves behind 10 - 20 pieces of space debris ... probably more. In the same light I was critical of PMs address to the nation on the success of ASAT. Somewhere there was a hint of jingoism in the entire episode. We as a nation are mature, highly regarded and acknowledged space and military power anyway.

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby Singha » 31 Mar 2019 13:02

:rotfl: ok

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby Arun.prabhu » 31 Mar 2019 13:10

I hope you were kidding there.

esommuk wrote:I am strictly against contributing to more space debris just for showcasing weaponisation and deterrence. This will soon lead to ocean plastics like situation. The space is already overcrowded. In any case every commercial space launch leaves behind 10 - 20 pieces of space debris ... probably more. In the same light I was critical of PMs address to the nation on the success of ASAT. Somewhere there was a hint of jingoism in the entire episode. We as a nation are mature, highly regarded and acknowledged space and military power anyway.

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby syam » 31 Mar 2019 13:35

On positive note, we no longer need to worry about aliens like Thanos. The debris is enough to shield the whole planet. I wonder how we are getting sunlight in first place. Must be djinn magic at work. If this continues, we might lose the sunlight too. :-?

Damn, being concerned citizen is such a burden. esommuk saar, you have 200% support from my side.
Last edited by syam on 31 Mar 2019 13:38, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby Pratyush » 31 Mar 2019 13:37

esommuk wrote:I am strictly against contributing to more space debris just for showcasing weaponisation and deterrence. This will soon lead to ocean plastics like situation. The space is already overcrowded. In any case every commercial space launch leaves behind 10 - 20 pieces of space debris ... probably more. In the same light I was critical of PMs address to the nation on the success of ASAT. Somewhere there was a hint of jingoism in the entire episode. We as a nation are mature, highly regarded and acknowledged space and military power anyway.



Ok you have had your say. Now run along and hid behind the big boys.

Leave the affairs of state for the adults in the room.

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby Narad » 31 Mar 2019 13:38

Sometimes I wish we too had a punarshiksha abhiyan (re education) in line of our yellow blothels

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby SSridhar » 31 Mar 2019 13:54

esommuk wrote:I am strictly against contributing to more space debris just for showcasing weaponisation and deterrence. This will soon lead to ocean plastics like situation. The space is already overcrowded. In any case every commercial space launch leaves behind 10 - 20 pieces of space debris ... probably more. In the same light I was critical of PMs address to the nation on the success of ASAT. Somewhere there was a hint of jingoism in the entire episode. We as a nation are mature, highly regarded and acknowledged space and military power anyway.

Showcasing? If it will lead to ocean-plastics-like-situation, take your fight with China, US & Russia. Do you have any idea about the kind of space weaponization that these countries are arming themselves with? With an inimical and reckless China, our [that is, Indian] space assets are in constant danger. The Chinese have 'blinded' sats of other nations. They are working on ground-based and co-orbital anti-satellite weapons. And, here you are claiming that India was just showcasing ! If you had stopped with that, I would have assumed you are one of those 'peaceniks', but you went on to talk politically too.

I warn you not to troll or bring your political whims and fancies here.


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