Indian ASAT Test

Lisa · Post by **Lisa** » 31 Mar 2019 15:29

esommuk wrote:I am strictly against contributing to more space debris just for showcasing weaponisation and deterrence. This will soon lead to ocean plastics like situation. The space is already overcrowded. In any case every commercial space launch leaves behind 10 - 20 pieces of space debris ... probably more. In the same light I was critical of PMs address to the nation on the success of ASAT. Somewhere there was a hint of jingoism in the entire episode. We as a nation are mature, highly regarded and acknowledged space and military power anyway.

So much easier to say “do as I say and not as I do”.

VikramS · Post by **VikramS** » 31 Mar 2019 15:37

esommuk wrote:I am strictly against contributing to more space debris just for showcasing weaponisation and deterrence. This will soon lead to ocean plastics like situation. The space is already overcrowded. In any case every commercial space launch leaves behind 10 - 20 pieces of space debris ... probably more. In the same light I was critical of PMs address to the nation on the success of ASAT. Somewhere there was a hint of jingoism in the entire episode. We as a nation are mature, highly regarded and acknowledged space and military power anyway.

Jingoism? Demonstrating the capability at a time when we may be close to war is not jingoism; it is messaging.

Regards debris, all the usual suspects have said that the risk is minimal and being LEO will burn up soon.

esommuk · Post by **esommuk** » 31 Mar 2019 15:42

Apologies if I have touched a raw nerve here but the fact remains India is not China or USA or Britain or Russia. We take pride in the fact that we are not warmongers or aggressors. We go back thousands of years in civilisation and the fact that we are different from these nations is well known. There is no political connotation here rather it is purely my personal opinion Sir.

Bankim Chandra Chattopadhyay of Anandmath/Bande Mataram fame in his work 'Kapalkundala' wrote 'tumi adham - tai boliya ami uttam na hoibo keno' meaning if others are bad nothing stops us from being good.

I rest my case!

RamSuresh · Post by **RamSuresh** » 31 Mar 2019 16:04

^^ So is the corollary. I would rather like my country be bad and thriving than nice and broken.

A Nandy · Post by **A Nandy** » 31 Mar 2019 16:12

Apologies if I have touched a raw nerve here but the fact remains India is not China or USA or Britain or Russia. We take pride in the fact that we are not warmongers or aggressors. We go back thousands of years in civilisation and the fact that we are different from these nations is well known. There is no political connotation here rather it is purely my personal opinion Sir.

This thousand year history tells us repeatedly that such views only get us killed. I had rather not be the dead but nice guy

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 31 Mar 2019 16:15

esommuk, we have been good, we are good and we shall continue to be good.

Being good doesn't mean being unprepared; being defenceless, especially when we know our enemies and their wicked intentions.

We have been attacked so many times and knowing our history you are still talking the way you are.

In this ancient civilization of ours, Gods possessed all sorts of weapons but used them only to destroy evil.

So shall we, if needed.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 31 Mar 2019 16:16

OK, folks,

No more discussion needed on this diversion. Let's get back to programming.

kit · Post by **kit** » 31 Mar 2019 16:25

esommuk wrote:Apologies if I have touched a raw nerve here but the fact remains India is not China or USA or Britain or Russia. We take pride in the fact that we are not warmongers or aggressors. We go back thousands of years in civilisation and the fact that we are different from these nations is well known. There is no political connotation here rather it is purely my personal opinion Sir.

Bankim Chandra Chattopadhyay of Anandmath/Bande Mataram fame in his work 'Kapalkundala' wrote 'tumi adham - tai boliya ami uttam na hoibo keno' meaning if others are bad nothing stops us from being good.

I rest my case!

you really need to read how geopolitics work., that same nation also was home to Kautilya , good for starters.

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 31 Mar 2019 16:46

esommuk wrote:Apologies if I have touched a raw nerve here but the fact remains India is not China or USA or Britain or Russia. We take pride in the fact that we are not warmongers or aggressors. We go back thousands of years in civilisation and the fact that we are different from these nations is well known. There is no political connotation here rather it is purely my personal opinion Sir.

Bankim Chandra Chattopadhyay of Anandmath/Bande Mataram fame in his work 'Kapalkundala' wrote 'tumi adham - tai boliya ami uttam na hoibo keno' meaning if others are bad nothing stops us from being good.

I rest my case!

Such type of Pacifist (and defeatist) thinking is the root cause of the many disasters we have faced. We have seen what pacifist thinking early leader did to India (Giving Up Security Council seat, China War, not blasting your way into P5). All the good sayings should be limited to reading in books and in plays. Nations do not become great by relying on emotions but by dealing with matters practically and indulging in 'Real Politics'. Kautilya's example has been rightly quoted above.

Even god does not help those who cant help themselves. Living in a fools paradise is not what god intended for the humans to do.

prasannasimha · Post by **prasannasimha** » 31 Mar 2019 16:57

Moderator note - Please stop this discourse with esonmusk.
Please only dscuss specifics wrt ASAT test here. Test is done and no discussion about what if's.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 31 Mar 2019 17:14

Apologies, I have deleted my post

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 31 Mar 2019 17:30

Guys, two Moderators including me have said that this discussion must stop.

No more posts.

kit · Post by **kit** » 31 Mar 2019 19:50

For those who are interested the DRDO chief has alluded to the capability requirement for soft kill measures , that is high powered laser. Either ground based or airborne. Laser attacks can either burn through or destroy by changing orbit causing it to collide with other objects. The RISAT 1 s loss was an attack not a freak of nature. There can be no proof with India but the US has data that supports the event.
Space weapons is a priority for DRDO and a second modi government will see to the deployment of 'reasonable ' capacity

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 31 Mar 2019 20:24

On defensive side we need an architecture for sats to be threat aware,

Flock-A kind of microsats observing the sat from a range of few kms much like a CCTV for kinetic threats and co-orbital mode of attack, reminds the closely spaced Chinese trio of sats, either they are for triangulation or can have interlocking observation

Sensors for recognizing Jamming and DEW detection even for launch stages

The plausible deniability aspect of these attacks has to be reduced by knowing the attack signatures (apologies for preaching!) and US most likely has a whole theme of development mimicking other countries ASAT signatures

dinesh_kimar · Post by **dinesh_kimar** » 31 Mar 2019 22:17

^ The information on ASAT weapons suggests that US used nuclear warheads in 1960s, which are not considered any longer by all parties involved.

Considerable risk to own satellites are also involved.

Soviet Union used co-orbital satellite weapon, a Weaponised satellite chasing target on same orbit, with final destruction by sharpnel warhead.
However, this takes 200 minutes to 48 hours for a kill.

Ground based lasers are another Soviet development, but High energy required and fixed ground infrastructure make the system inefficient, expensive and vulnerable.

Nuclear powered lasers not too satisfactory.

Direct ascent weapons and MHV (miniature homing vehicle) are the fastest and best.

This is what the 4 Nations currently use.

China tested in 2005, 2006, 2007, 2010, 2013 and 2018, under the guise of some other launch.

Strong rumour persists that Chinese killed 2 Indian Satellites.

Ex chiefs of both ISRO and DRDO assert that if Modi hadnt tested, we would not have got the capability.

Additional: Soviet Union used armored space station, a miniature death star with an AA gun.

Suresh S · Post by **Suresh S** » 31 Mar 2019 22:44

My 2 cents. I do believe that chicom did knock out one or more of our satellites including risat. If you guys watch modiji,s address to the nation, rather unusual for a fraction of a second you see his finger,s shaking with emotion. There is more to this than meets the eye. May be I am reading too much into this, not sure.

saip · Post by **saip** » 01 Apr 2019 00:10

Some months back Russia launched a satellite which in turn launched another small satellite and that launched another smaller satellite. Not sure why they did that. Perhaps India too can follow that example and launch a small satellite from the actual satellite which will act as sentry of the bigger satellite.

So, what is an inspector satellite? They ostensibly do just that, inspect other objects in space. From a benign perspective, this makes good sense, since it gives personnel on the ground a means of investigating damaged or malfunctioning objects in space remotely before deciding how best to proceed with repairs or replacement.

Link

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 01 Apr 2019 00:21

saip wrote:Some months back Russia launched a satellite which in turn launched another small satellite and that launched another smaller satellite. Not sure why they did that.

Because is Russian to do this da! Also hides contents from evil capitalist (err western) imperialists.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matryoshka_doll

negi · Post by **negi** » 01 Apr 2019 00:54

Russians had mastered FOBS long ago nothing they do in space should come as a surprise.

"Bankim Chandra Chattopadhyay of Anandmath/Bande Mataram fame in his work 'Kapalkundala' wrote 'tumi adham - tai boliya ami uttam na hoibo keno' meaning if others are bad nothing stops us from being good.
"
Eh baba please also pay attention to the context by the way I am sure Bankim da would not agree such an interpretation , since you like poetry you might have read Dinkar too his poem "shakti and kshama" is what you need to read specially the lines "kshama shobhati us bhujang ko jiske paas garal ho usko kya jo dantheen vish rahit vineet saral ho" meaning Forgiveness is becoming of the snake that has venom not the kind which is without fangs and venom. Bad vs Good nonsense is good for fairy tales this is a dog eats dog world .

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 01 Apr 2019 17:27

Strange but someone is claiming that there is an eyewitness to the ASAT test

My fiance saw the shoot down of the LEO by the ASAT and he thought he saw a shooting star for a very long time. While talking with his commander did he realize it was actually the sat debris.

https://twitter.com/fractalelf/status/1 ... 05058?s=21

VikasM · Post by **VikasM** » 01 Apr 2019 19:01

Seriously.. Through atmosphere? Was he flying? How high

prasannasimha · Post by **prasannasimha** » 01 Apr 2019 19:35

One thing to remember. What did VKS say - we can do the test with an electronic target and also with an actual target. We have done this with an actual target. As for the former hmmmmm is enough.
We are methodical in our approach

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 01 Apr 2019 23:28

Suresh S wrote:My 2 cents. I do believe that chicom did knock out one or more of our satellites including risat. If you guys watch modiji,s address to the nation, rather unusual for a fraction of a second you see his finger,s shaking with emotion. There is more to this than meets the eye. May be I am reading too much into this, not sure.

Hisab chukaya gaya hoga.

Skanda · Post by **Skanda** » 02 Apr 2019 00:24

India Conducted a Failed Anti-Satellite Test in February 2019

India’s Defense Research and Development Organization carried out a failed first attempt to destroy a satellite in low-earth orbit on February 12, The Diplomat has learned. The test took place from Abdul Kalam Island off the eastern coast of India.

According to U.S. government sources with knowledge of military intelligence assessments, the United States observed a failed Indian anti-satellite intercept test attempt in February. The solid-fueled interceptor missile used during that test “failed after about 30 seconds of flight,” one source told The Diplomat.

Rest is usual fluff in that article. Whats the big deal in saying that a test failed if they really saw the test failed. I dont understand the secrecy by these US government "sources".

saip · Post by **saip** » 02 Apr 2019 00:56

There was a test on Feb 12th. Hemant Kumar Rout tweeted.
https://twitter.com/Hemant_TNIE/status/ ... 9663879168

But that rocket is totally different from the one used in ASAT

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 02 Apr 2019 03:28

I think the US is scrambling to claim to be all knowing and speaking to Indian media willing to hear bad press about Indian programs

Rout has tweeted on 12 Feb that PDV was tested against an electronic target and it was successful.
Then later on 27 March the Microsat-R was targeted.

So the US is busy trying to pretend its all knowing eye of Sauron.
Sala they don't even monitor tweets by Indian reporters on the ground.
Look at the time stamp of Rout's tweet.
1:52 am 12 Feb 2019.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 02 Apr 2019 03:39

Burnol!

Just a FYI about the first analyst below - Ashley Tellis. He is the same one who said that India should stop development of the Tejas and go in for the F-16 Block 70/72 for the Indian Air Force.

The burnol below is amazing to read. Wow....the takleef some people get when India progresses.

India still has long way to go on ensuring space security: US experts
https://www.business-standard.com/artic ... 405_1.html

March 28, 2019

Prominent American experts have said that India has a long way to go when it comes to ensuring space security after it successfully test-fired an anti-satellite missile by shooting down a live satellite. The test made India the fourth country in the world after the US, Russia and China to acquire the strategic capability to shoot down enemy satellites.

Ashley J Tellis, a senior fellow at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace who holds the Tata Chair for Strategic Affairs, said ever since China's A-SAT missile test of 2007, India had been contemplating its own A-SAT test primarily to deter potential Chinese attacks on Indian space assets in the future. "That aim arguably has been satisfied today, but India still has a long way to go where ensuring space security is concerned. China has formidable counterspace capabilities and Indian space systems are still highly vulnerable both in peacetime and in conflict. Yesterday's A-SAT test does not alter this basic reality," Tellis told PTI.

Vipin Narang, an associate professor of political science at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, said that the test is unlikely to make any changes to the balance of power in the region. And as such it is more of a demonstration. "If Pakistan starts hitting Indian satellites

, India can knock out Pakistan's very few satellites. China can knock out all of India's satellites whereas India cannot do the same to China. So it's kind of a weird balance for India if it's interested in getting into the anti-satellite deterrence game (because) it doesn't really have an advantage in either of its dyads," Narang told Wired Magazine.

Daryl G Kimball of the Arms Control Association think-tank in a tweet described this as a dangerous and destabilising move. "A dangerous & destabilizing move. Underscores need for a global A-SAT ban. US gov't silence is deafening, given its negative reaction to China's '07 test," he said. Daniel Porras, Space Security Fellow at the United Nations Institute for Disarmament Research (UNIDIR), said that there is a need to have A-SAT guidelines, in particular about the debris. "A strong Indian military is an important American interest and space is increasingly a contested arena for political-military competition," Benjamin Schwartz from USIBC told PTI.

In New Delhi, the Ministry of External Affairs (MEA) said the test was done in the lower atmosphere to ensure there is no space debris. "Whatever debris that is generated will decay and fall back onto the earth within weeks," it said. The MEA came out with a 10-point explainer to say the anti-satellite missile test was carried out to verify India's capability to safeguard space assets and that it was not directed against any country. It also said in a statement that India has no intention of entering into an arms race in outer space. "We have always maintained that space must be used only for peaceful purposes. We are against the weaponisation of Outer Space and support international efforts to reinforce the safety and security of space based assets," the MEA added.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 02 Apr 2019 03:45

Pakees taking down satellites ? So an Abdul pointing an rpg towards the sky and braying aoa is expected to hit a satellite .

.

)

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 02 Apr 2019 03:51

Rakesh all these experts are talking thru their hats. Especially about China.

And that Kimball is a NPA. Used to preach virtues of NPT while Chinaa P-5 state was busy proliferating weapons.
These idiots had the fiction that Pak was getting nuke technology while they were getting nukes.

These guys were trying to lock India into PAROS which they were negotiating without India. Another CTBT entry into force kind of game.
Shiv Shankar Menon knew all this and did not allow the DRDO to develop the ASAT capability.
I think there is some perfidy and he should be made to account for it.

that Narang guy is on Twitter phoo-phooing the ASAT test. He wants India to knock of geostationary satellites which even US hasn't done. So tells you how much of an expert he is.
Ashley mamu I have soft corner. So won't say much.

He told me to buy the Indian edition of his book as its less expensive than the US edition!!!

kit · Post by **kit** » 02 Apr 2019 05:15

Skanda wrote:India Conducted a Failed Anti-Satellite Test in February 2019
India’s Defense Research and Development Organization carried out a failed first attempt to destroy a satellite in low-earth orbit on February 12, The Diplomat has learned. The test took place from Abdul Kalam Island off the eastern coast of India.

According to U.S. government sources with knowledge of military intelligence assessments, the United States observed a failed Indian anti-satellite intercept test attempt in February. The solid-fueled interceptor missile used during that test “failed after about 30 seconds of flight,” one source told The Diplomat.
Rest is usual fluff in that article. Whats the big deal in saying that a test failed if they really saw the test failed. I dont understand the secrecy by these US government "sources".

How do they know if it was an electronic target ..and that it failed ??

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 02 Apr 2019 06:05

India's Anti-Satellite Test Created Dangerous Debris, NASA Chief Says

"That is a terrible, terrible thing, to create an event that sends debris in an apogee that goes above the International Space Station," Bridenstine said at the town hall meeting, which was livestreamed on NASA TV. "And that kind of activity is not compatible with the future of human spaceflight that we need to see happen."

India's Anti-Satellite Missile Test Is a Big Deal. Here's Why.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 02 Apr 2019 06:22

How come he nor his predecessor had no such words to say when RISAT 1 ended due to a debris field in 30 Sep 2016?
And he now says its dangerous after the initial estimates were benign.

Looks like he is playing to gallery and wants control of that debris tracking agency not to be transferred out of NASA.

Its internal US bureaucratic fight.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 02 Apr 2019 07:43

So what if the first test failed.

Oldies will remember how many Agni tests failed. It was boom after boom. I still remember the front page photo of Agni (a second stage bolted on to Prithvi first stage) which caught fire in the launchpad. So did Akash.

How many SLV, ASLV and PSLV tests failed. It is 47th mission for PSLV yesterday with 29 satellites.

Kudos to the scientists who worked through disheartening failures to achieve success. Kudos to the political hierarchy who persisted. This is how real engineering is done.

Ardeshir · Post by **Ardeshir** » 02 Apr 2019 07:50

Some tests will fail. After all, not everyone is as lucky as the Pakis who have inducted all their missiles without a single test failure. If you think about it, even Nerolac/Asian Paints have test failures. However, the Pakis didn't even have any failures to report even while repainting the missiles from Cheeni/NoKo colours to their own?

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 02 Apr 2019 09:38

"Fail" is an opinion, if you dig in to the facts. It could have been an electronic target. DRDO has tested ABM aad/pad against actual targets from the get-go because we have no shortage of target missiles. Sats though are a lot more involved. So why wouldn't we test against a simulated target first? it makes total sense. As much as it does for NPAs to rundown our program and DRDO and call for a ban and protest and boycott ofthe PSLV

After all these years, BRF should just point and go

as the NPAs

vimal · Post by **vimal** » 02 Apr 2019 09:50

Failing WaPo article on India's test written by some Ankit Panda.

India can blow up satellites now. And a new space arms race could be starting.

India can blow up satellites now. And a new space arms race could be starting.

Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi, with just two weeks to go before polling begins for elections in the world’s largest democracy, has declared his country a “space superpower.” The grounds for that declaration were a technical accomplishment: an indigenously developed Indian ground-launched missile successfully shot down one of the country’s own satellites in low orbit, some 187 miles above the Earth’s surface. India’s accomplishment is significant, but it’s not without risks — both in the region and for the burgeoning militarization of space.

disha · Post by **disha** » 02 Apr 2019 10:57

NRao wrote:India's Anti-Satellite Test Created Dangerous Debris, NASA Chief Says

Looks like NASA chief is out of job and needs some way to get back his "glory"

"But at the end of the day we need to be clear, with everybody in the world, we're the only agency in the federal government that has human lives at stake here," Bridenstine said. "And it is not acceptable for us to allow people to create orbital debris fields that put at risk our people."

"We need to be clear, also, that these activities are not sustainable or compatible with human spaceflight," he added.

Last week at a U.S. House hearing, Bridenstine also discussed debris-creating operations, although he didn't refer specifically to India's test.

For a US federal agency which cannot sends its own astronauts to space, to talk about being the only fed gov. agency in world that is worried about human lives is like bakis asking for peaceful exploration of space for all space-faring countries.

I seriously think, it is the case of inveigling a budget for NASA !!

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 02 Apr 2019 12:51

Fighting for Space
A-SAT test would require two years of preparation, making it hard to argue that it was an impulsive government decision
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2019/04/ ... space.html

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 02 Apr 2019 13:22

Rakesh wrote:India still has long way to go on ensuring space security: US experts
https://www.business-standard.com/artic ... 405_1.html

Vipin Narang, an associate professor of political science at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, said that the test is unlikely to make any changes to the balance of power in the region. And as such it is more of a demonstration. "If Pakistan starts hitting Indian satellites , India can knock out Pakistan's very few satellites. China can knock out all of India's satellites whereas India cannot do the same to China. So it's kind of a weird balance for India if it's interested in getting into the anti-satellite deterrence game (because) it doesn't really have an advantage in either of its dyads," Narang told Wired Magazine.

This guy is really a idiot, does he think India has only a couple of satellite in orbit?

If the above said scenario happens, it will create a debris field that would knock out every other satellite in LEO and start a chain reaction. There would be no need for us to shoot even one chinese satellite

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 02 Apr 2019 13:26

Well he is a political science professor. To borrow the words of FM Sam Maneckshaw, he probably can't tell the difference between a gun and a howitzer, a motor from a mortar or a guerilla from a gorilla, although he might resemble the latter.