Indian ASAT Test

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby Singha » 07 Apr 2019 08:44

Per livefist twitter a meeting of all directors nsa and retired heads was held this week. See the pics who all were there

I feel a new space command , bmd , asat production and release of this video debated there

So called osint people can twitter all they want, but ultimately its state actors who make the big decisions.

Nasa chief being pulled up by white house is a tea leaf

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby SriKumar » 07 Apr 2019 08:48

From this video, at about 26:00... DRDO director Satheesh Reddy specifically says that the satellite was impacted almost head on (or at a very shallow angle). This was to done to maximize debris that would lose kinetic energy and come down into atmosphere. Posting this here since there was some speculation/discussion about the angle of impact (especially the AGI simulation calling it at downward (i.e. pointing at earth) angle). This can be used to determine reasonably well the velocity of the KKV, since the satellite orbit and velocity is known.

https://www.pscp.tv/w/1OwGWkaAWmpGQ

Agree about the real need to release deep technical details in public. The impact video shows very clearly all the course changes made in the last one second prior to impact. A NOTAM was issued prior to the test, and so all eyes would have been pointed to that location anyway. I have to believe, though, that release of video would have had clearance at the highest levels. It came out many days after the test.
Last edited by SriKumar on 07 Apr 2019 08:55, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby UlanBatori » 07 Apr 2019 08:50

My question is simple. The pic in front of the Ophishial DRDO Video shows a very mobile rocket on a truck-like thing. The weight is pretty substantial: about 17 tons gross weight? Can't cross many bridges.

But.. does this mean that Injuns can reach Space from anywhere in India? And can make these things in numbers like Ambassador cars or autorickshas? :eek: :shock:

Wonder if they offer micro-cube-sat or microgravity tests to kindergartners on these gizmos as part of the required periodic testing. Every school in India can have its own local Space Launch System. Wow!

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby Singha » 07 Apr 2019 08:52

This june onward our sslv quicklaunch program will begin from kutch base

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby UlanBatori » 07 Apr 2019 08:58

17-ton is well within range of an Antonov's payload. Wonder how high those can fly. But if you can put a few ASATs on cargo planes and have them loiter at 10-15km altitude, you can reach out and touch Paki mijjiles at boost or even b4 they reach Space.

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby Amber G. » 07 Apr 2019 09:07

SriKumar wrote:From this video, at about 26:00... DRDO director Satheesh Reddy specifically says that the satellite was impacted almost head on (or at a very shallow angle). This was to done to maximize debris that would lose kinetic energy and come down into atmosphere. Posting this here since there was some speculation/discussion about the angle of impact (especially the AGI simulation calling it at downward (i.e. pointing at earth) angle). This can be used to determine reasonably well the velocity of the KKV, since the satellite orbit and velocity is known.
<snip> .

As I said before (see below) .. head-on collision will also cause the maximum damage - (By almost a factor or 5-10 then say hitting on it's way down of chasing it).

This is also optimizes the fastest decay time for debris on average. (Again this is what I said, as Sri-Kumar noted in my other post)
-- My post follows:

Amber G. wrote:
Dileep wrote:Amber Ji, was waiting for you to comment. Would you be able to comment on the following notions I figure?
<snip>
4. The direction of impact doesn't matter much when both objects disintegrate into pieces much smaller than the original ones.

TIA

Hi Dileep, let me take a stab and few comments:

4 - In my view direction of impact does matter as the total energy lost will depend on it. (Actually since KE is proportional to square of velocity the design - all other things being equal -- should aim for a "head-on" collision and this can impact the damage done by a factor of few)

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby Amber G. » 07 Apr 2019 09:19

SriKumar wrote:
AmberG-
the ASAT-Microsat impact discussion above reminds me of the question you had posted a couple of years ago on the ISRO thread about the direction of an orbiting satellite which is 'impacted' tangential to and normal to its orbit :)

Yes, and thanks for pointing it out.
Intersting (and in some-case, as discussion there showed, some-what counter intuitive) point -
The "forward" or "backward" impact agreed with most people's intuition - that is, "forward" (if the ASAT hit the sat from "behind") impact will "raise" (see note**) the orbit, while "backward" impact (if ASTA hit head-on) will bring the orbit down.
(Here I am considering "average" - individual debris piece will fly in all directions).

BTW head-on collision will also cause the maximum damage.

The part about "normal" to orbit (that is ASAT hitting on its way "up" or way "down") is interesting and some-what counter intuitive. In both cases the new orbit's semi-major axis will be larger. (The part that if the ASAT hits it going down - thus "pushing the sat in "down-wards
" direction actually ends up in raising the orbit is some-what intuitive.

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby Amber G. » 07 Apr 2019 09:27

Indranil wrote:I am going to plug my article in here. But I Am not feeling any shame in this. I had written this with no insider knowledge. Saurav Jha did provide some quality inputs about the KKV. Every point we made has turned out to be correct. Feeling proud.

All You Need To Know About The PDV MK-II: India’s Satellite Killer

I think that was an excellent article and being proud is completely justified.
FWIW - If I had a chance to edit the article from scientific accuracy, I will not change anything. For me, this way this article was notable in a way specially because many others I have seen had sometimes silly mistakes. Again good work. Thanks for quoting here in full.

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby Amber G. » 07 Apr 2019 10:28

UlanBatori wrote: ...
Hitting a satellite in orbit is same as tossing a ball up as a bird is flying fast, as I mentioned (and iirc some pompous entity of course twisted into something else :rotfl: ).


Pompous entity? :rotfl: :rotfl:
Honestly I must admit that I avoid UB's analysis in anything related to science - specially seeing Physics dhaga get completely derailed but I did see these gem(s).
Again in all seriousness I have not seen anything as entertaining as the following.

Because of the extreme speed of the satellite in orbit (~ 7.5 km/s) the "H2K" (a.k.a. "Smart Rock / Brilliant Pebble") killer vehicle does not have to be going fast w.r.t. the ground: it can be reaching the top of its rise and beginning to come slowly straight down (no one does that, sure) and so traveling at 1 cm per second w.r.t. Earth, as long as it is in the right place at the right instant to be in front of the satellite. So it is very different from the case of, say, an ATGM. Also the target will have a tough time maneuvering "out of the way" in time, and even if it does, it will now be in a very different orbit and face rapid decline - like a car dodging a large pakistani beeing in the middle of a mountain pass road. Meanwhile the killer can move a bit in any direction (not cover much distance) because it is at very low kinetic energy, not much thrust needed to change orbit plane.


[/quote]

"Tossing a ball up as bird is flying.."

"Traveling at 1 cm w.r.t to Earth .." (Did use the word "ground" before but here it does not say w.r.t to center of the earth or ground at Ulan-Bator :eek: .. Of course, ground at Ulan-Bator is moving about 50000 cm/sec with respect to center of the earth)

Again I have to be honest, I have not seen such brilliant "science" even in Jinn Thermodynamics. Only thing comes to my mind is some genius wondering low energy solution - just throw the "missile" up near Lahore.. wait till the earth turns -- and land in anyplace you want.
(Sorry I mean no disrespect to the person just the scientific "analysis" is very odd)

****

Folks:

I know UB has a much bigger fan-base than me and a very respected person but this kind of "analysis" is beyond silly.

I won't comment but "come slowly straight down at the right time and place" is beyond absurd - at least scientifically.
One is not tossing a ball up to a bird - where you can neglect any orbit mechanics and just take approximation of parabolic or linear motion.

If you just look at the formula I gave -- v^2 = k (2/r-1/a) ... to reach "zero" velocity is practically impossible the perigee has to be ZERO (that is sat is passing through the center of the earth if the orbit continues :eek: .

The ASAT's speed even at the highest point (if it continued ) is measured in Km/sec (that is about 100,000 cms/sec). As I said one can't just "hover" at high point and come-down when one wants...

I won't even comment on other aspects as "analysis" becomes more strange.

****
UBji - Let me make a request and I hope you pay a little attention. It is true you that you have a lot of respect here in Brf. We may even know each others outside brf as we worked on a few projects together. I think we graduated from the same institute.. I did graduate some 15 years before you did. I know you are a sensible person so give break to pingreji once in a while.. and go easy on paki-math or paki-physics. As you know the physics dhaga was completely derailed by such antics.

Physics discussion is okay. If you don't understand something I said and if I have time I may try to explain it to you. what is NOT okay is comments like "pompous entities" and making environment hostile for others.

My last on this. Sorry for the harsh tone - no disrespect to the person.
Hope this helps.
Last edited by Amber G. on 07 Apr 2019 11:38, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby arun » 07 Apr 2019 11:19

UlanBatori wrote:Arun, if you look at the video, you see the Satellite (Passive Attractor Of Killer Indians or PAKI) is coming in its orbit, at a speed relative to Earth of about 7.5km/s (that should work out to be nearly 18000 miles per hour - you can work the conversion yourself). The Killer Indian ASAT mijjile takes off and accelerates and approaches the PAKI, and actually goes towards it. At the time of impact, the relative speed apparently is 10.45km/s (I heard that somewhere). Since the KI is still rising as well as going towards the PAKI, I guess this means the KI has a speed of something like 5km/s itself.


:D Thank you Ulan Batori. May your Yak herd multiply and your Yurt always be filled with ample stocks of Koumiss :wink: .

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby arun » 07 Apr 2019 11:24

sudeepj wrote:As fun as it is for the jingo side of me, I wish the DRDO had not done such a detailed press conference. Showing the last minute kkv maneuvering, using technical descriptor words that can leak information about the guidance algorithms makes me feel uneasy.


Karan M wrote:Yes, I agree. The problem with DRDO is that lack of GOI support during the UPA era, when UPA used pliable journos like Coupta to target DRDO and push for imports, made it start giving out overtly detailed information in an effort to establish its credibility.


I take a contrary view. DRDO and the NSA, represented by DRDO Chairman Sathees Reddy and Deputy NSA Pankaj Saran are no neophytes with an incredible lack of self awareness of what is in the best interests of my country, India. If they have deemed fit to disclose some details about the ASAT Tests, it is good enough for me as a Resident Tax Paying Indian National to accept the information without second guessing the merits/demerits of disclosure of that information, as to do so would smack of poor taste.

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby Singha » 07 Apr 2019 11:32

Gora Not invented here anal fistula , jealousy and azz on fire burnol continues to spread like the debris field of a galactic collision

One ahms cantrol wanker is busy applying burnol to his burning undies

After the crowdsourced campaign to “punish” isro by banning the pslv went nowhere, after the nasa chief got a rebuke from the big guy for talking policy out of his pay grade, the latest circus is scaremongering about debris in higher orbit

There is no point is being polite with or about anti-india forces within or outside our realm who seek a monopoly on ashtra shastra while moral posturing via ahms cantrol wankers on the side

They need to be heckled and booed from the stadium

Just watching their exchanges makes me think burnol is a growth stock in my portfolio if nda2 happens

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby Singha » 07 Apr 2019 11:40

As a data point some american body wanted to give our drdo chief an award and invited him over ... part of their outreach to our elites but later his visa was rejected

This was long before the asat test but after the feb12 virtual test

https://twitter.com/Deeksha40019561/sta ... 08192?s=20

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby arun » 07 Apr 2019 11:42

SriKumar wrote:Agree about the real need to release deep technical details in public. The impact video shows very clearly all the course changes made in the last one second prior to impact. A NOTAM was issued prior to the test, and so all eyes would have been pointed to that location anyway. I have to believe, though, that release of video would have had clearance at the highest levels. It came out many days after the test.


Agree with you though possibly for a different and additional reason. To reiterate, DRDO and the NSA, represented by DRDO Chairman Sathees Reddy and Deputy NSA Pankaj Saran are no neophytes with an incredible lack of self awareness of what is in the best interests of my country, India. If they have deemed fit to disclose some deep technical details about the ASAT Tests, it is good enough for me to accept those deep technical details without second guessing the merits/demerits of disclosure of that deep technical details , as to do so would smack of poor taste.

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby disha » 07 Apr 2019 11:46

Singha wrote:This june onward our sslv quicklaunch program will begin from kutch base


Jai Ho. Would have preferred it from Dwarka, but Kot-lakhpat is also fine.

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby Amber G. » 07 Apr 2019 11:49

VikramA wrote:technically proficient civilians like space enthusiasts are already getting way too much info from the drdo video like:
"It also lists an azimuth, elevation and range: az 168.981 deg, elev 41.758 deg, range 414.485 km. This would place the IR camera on the coast near 21.345 N, 86.912 E, give or take a few hundred meters, near Deulabad."

I can only imagine what a foreign nation military intelligence will get.


There may be many things one can learn from that video (I watched it) but orbital parameters are not secret anymore - virtually all nations with tracking systems know these values fairly accurately. Ditto about tracking data for larger debris.

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby arun » 07 Apr 2019 11:53

Singha wrote:As a data point some american body wanted to give our drdo chief an award and invited him over ... part of their outreach to our elites but later his visa was rejected

This was long before the asat test but after the feb12 virtual test

https://twitter.com/Deeksha40019561/sta ... 08192?s=20


Not sure of the timing ie if after Feb 12 virtual test, but yes there was a visa denial event. Visa denial story was originally posted by Austin. My own take then as now was that it may have been CAATSA driven rather then ASAT Test driven:

See Page 12 of this thread:

Clicky

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby negi » 07 Apr 2019 12:01

ASAT pictures have a nice grey coloured canister with 'bharat' written in hindi in the background , needless to say this thing will be road mobile and hopefully be deployed even via the sea in future . India needs to commission dedicated missile forces akin to what Russia has and run it in a way that is secretive with little or no exchange of people or information . We are at a critical juncture where not only our IP but even our skilled resources can easily be poached and our program slowed by years if we don't quickly operationalise AAD, PAD and the ASATs as a 3 layered defence umbrella under a dedicated body with complete autonomy . With import of S400 in numbers in next 5 years lot of vendors will queue up to sell their wares I am sure there will be focussed attempts at selling THAAD or some watered down version of SM2/3 system . Working prototypes are great but all of this would be rendered useless if the forces get an excuse to buy an imported platform just because prototypes are 'impractical' or not deployable in tangible timeframe. It has been a while since last AAD and PAD tests were conducted by now we should have had entire NW region covered by the LRTR .

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby disha » 07 Apr 2019 12:34

ramana wrote:Mamla aur kuch hain.


I was waiting for this news item to come through. It was there since 4 days but was picked up only recently and it has both local and global implications ...

https://thewire.in/diplomacy/space-debris-an-important-concern-for-the-us-says-state-department

Space Debris an 'Important Concern for the US', Says State Department

Washington: Notwithstanding NASA’s criticism of India over space debris created by the country’s anti-satellite missile test, the Trump administration says the two nations will continue to pursue shared interests in space that includes collaboration on safety and security in space.

State Department deputy spokesperson Robert Palladino’s remarks came a day after National Aeronautics and Space Administration termed India’s shooting down of one of its satellites that has created about 400 pieces of orbital debris a “terrible thing”.

“The issue of space debris, that is an important concern for the United States, and I would say that we took note of the Indian Government’s statements that the test was designed to address space debris issues,” Palladino said.

“I think we spoke a little bit about this last week. But as we’ve said previously, we have a strong strategic partnership with India, and we will continue to pursue shared interests in space, in scientific and technical cooperation with India, and that includes collaboration on safety and security in space,” he said.

Last week, India carried out Mission Shakti, in which it successfully targeted a low Earth orbit (LEO) satellite.

Prime Minister Narendra Modi hailed its success as “an unprecedented achievement” that makes India “a space power.”

NASA administrator Jim Bridenstine said about 60 pieces of debris have been tracked so far and out of which 24 are going above the apogee of the ISS.

“That is a terrible, terrible thing to create an event that sends debris and an apogee that goes above the international space station. That kind of activity is not compatible with the future of human spaceflight that we need to see have happen,” he said.


“The anti-satellite weapons (ASAT) test by India last week has resulted in about 400 pieces of orbital debris,” he added.

Bridenstine said not all of the pieces were big enough to track and the NASA is right now tracking objects which are 10 centimetres or bigger.

“Some 60 pieces of orbital debris have been tracked so far, 24 out of which poses risk to the International Space Station,” he said.’

India has said the test was done in the lower atmosphere to ensure that there is no space debris. “Whatever debris that is generated will decay and fall back onto the earth within weeks,” the Ministry of External Affairs said soon after the test.

By conducting the ASAT test, India was not in violation of any international law or treaty to which it is a party to or any national obligation, it said.

A day after India successfully carried out its ASAT test, acting US defence secretary Patrick Shanahan warned that the event could create a “mess” in space but said Washington was still studying the impact.


If one parses the SD comment carefully, it appears that the US is being schizophrenic. And totally confused. It is looking ways to get back in control but at the same time does not want to upset India for striking a strategic alliance for future. NASA talks non-sense and unilaterally calling off cooperation and then WH nudges it and then US SD makes an "inbetween" statement. Like, "debris is a concern but we noted Indian Government notes".

"Debris" is just a side show. This shadow boxing is not about debris.

Various US agencies are out of control and NASA is still stuck in cold war, but worse (from US perspective) US is getting continuously surprised by India's capabilities. For eg. India's Mig21 brings down F-16 and states that it knows because it was monitoring comm between the downed PAF and its base and out trots a bimbette who does an F-16 counting from unofficial sources and the limpets in Indian media jump around till both the Pentagon and India's defense minister step in and IAF has to share some of its capabilities to journos. It was a way to know IAF capability, and immediately there is more details coming about ASAT (after NASA comes back and states that everything is good).

And in the above briefing, another admin of NASA goes off tangent.

Think of it as this way, the head of US wants to make a strategic partnership with India. But the heart of US is not yet agreeing to give the brown SDRE a seat at the "high table".

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby Dileep » 07 Apr 2019 13:33

Hmm..the proverbial cat seems to be 'belled'. Oh well..

Some points need to be repeated in order to drill into the heads:

1. There is no 'hovering' in space. All (unpowered) motion is essentially 'free fall' under gravity.
2. Satellite collision is NOT like snooker balls that bounce off. It is a fierce explosion, due to the high energy. Debris go all around (relative to the impact point). So, the ASAT first going up overshooting the orbit and then hitting at a downward angle have no meaning. The best use case would be head on hit.
3. Head on is also better in guidance, since it becomes mostly a 2D correction in the transverse plane. It is easier to do with sideways thrusters.

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby Singha » 07 Apr 2019 13:51

I was thinking that too. There is no different outcome to striking it up or down esp for the smaller debris that change orbit the most. Best to keep it simple than get into 3d course change mode

But then again most of those trying to throw mud do not have the education to understand this or deliberately telling lies to bleat their agenda

Fake gora analcysts and their sepoys trying to construct fake dharmic extra “hoops” which the brown monkeys must be constrained to jump through while the smug big boys do what they want

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby Austin » 07 Apr 2019 16:02

If Space Debris annoy them let us create more of it at 200-300 km orbit and hit may be smaller object in size than microsat .... these people have created tons of space debris during their more than 70 years of space odyssey with little concern to any satellite or ISS.

This is like NPT club , They blow 1000 of nukes and be armed to teeth but if India just blows of 1 Nuke it becomes serious concern with international ramifications , proliferation etc , This is all about constraining Indias ASAT and Space Warfare abilities like NPT did with Nuclear.

Next few months and years I expect many write up from WSJ , FP etc on how bad these test were and how the Gora Saved ISS from certain disaster. :rotfl:

Lets announce the next intercept date in advance and see how these Pigeons panic in their cages.

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby Kakarat » 07 Apr 2019 16:30

VIDEO

https://twitter.com/kakarat2001/status/ ... 6905138177 ---> Divert and Attitude Control System of PDV under testing on a ground fixture.

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby Rakesh » 07 Apr 2019 17:33

https://twitter.com/strategic_front/sta ... 9264355328 ---> PDV-mk2 missile used for ASAT test.

Image

Image

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby Rakesh » 07 Apr 2019 17:34


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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby Rakesh » 07 Apr 2019 17:35

https://twitter.com/strategic_front/sta ... 7597321216 ---> Last seconds before interception. Images from the IIR seeker.

Image

Image

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby Rakesh » 07 Apr 2019 17:35

https://twitter.com/strategic_front/sta ... 5586626560 ---> IIR seeker used for the terminal phase guidance.

Image

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby Rakesh » 07 Apr 2019 17:41

The Official DRDO Video of the Anti-Satellite Missile Test - Mission Shakti


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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby Kanson » 07 Apr 2019 18:06

arun wrote:



NASA Administrator Jim Bridenstein seems to have been administered a kick on his Musharraf for his ASAT comment and ordered to resume cooperation with ISRO :rotfl: :

NASA to resume cooperation with ISRO after ‘guidance’ from White House


To understand the flipflop, I'm going to repeat what i mentioned during doklam crisis. As long as there were only two entities in the equation, powers seen us through cold war mindset w colonial hangover. The moment Cheen enters there is distinguishable realinging along the lines that favours Bharat (Term in use is not akhand india, that goes only with Bharat).

On the surface there could be bubbles, warts and things like that, but where it matters you could see the synergy. This you could see from 2016 onwards.

Opportunity once again knocks that was earlier either squandered or less utilized. Lets see what beckons!

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby Singha » 07 Apr 2019 18:12

UPA MMS foreign policy was self-castration and renunciation.

that led to opportunities lost and china gaining a lot of ground. in reality the building blocks of this test were available from 2012 atleast after some amt of ABM testing.

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby Karan M » 07 Apr 2019 18:47

Somebody who practiced self castration will then use that ignoble art for the nation as well.

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby Karan M » 07 Apr 2019 18:48

Thanks to UPA, no new fighters were procured for the MMRCA , DRDO budget needs were never met, arty was stuck...

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby UlanBatori » 07 Apr 2019 18:55

{ignoring inflammatory and irrelevant cra*; }
Amber G. wrote: Hope this helps.

No it sadly does not, Amberji. I feel sorry to see the gratuitous deterioration in attitude.
Let me try explaining in simple terms:
When I throw a ball up, that is also travelling with a tangential velocity equal to the tangential velocity at the surface of the Earth. I think any middle schooler can figure that out. I believe that speed is supersonic with respect to the speed of sound at the surface; I am not going to waste time posting the number to five decimal places to impress anyone.
But we don't say that the ball is traveling with this huge speed. Even Shoaib Chuckthar the Rawalpindi Express only claimed to throw the ball at 150kmph, not 1150kmph or -850kph. Sehwag hit it over the third-man fence at ~ 200 kmph, not 1200 or -800 kmph nor some intricate vector set in the Galactic BlackHole Reference Frame.

This is quite elementary.
The rest can be figured out as well. End of this unsolicited "discussion" please, it is embarrassing to have to explain such things to people with such vast claimed credentials, in public. No, I did not have the privilege of graduating from the same institution as your kind self AFAIK, and my Physics 101 grade IIRC was 50/100, the minimum to pass on "merit". Probably the instructor remembered all the perfect Killer Satellite hits he scored on my forehead right between the eyes as I tried to doze off peacefully in the 1PM class, and wanted me in his next class to continue target practice. All the Physics I know I learned in 8th grade. Or maybe the cricket field.
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For others:

(1) My point is that the KI designer does not have to waste energy giving the Bullet a lot of kinetic energy to penetrate the target etc. The target's speed does all the work, if the KI just happens to be crossing the path of the target very very slowly.
True, when a ball comes to a "stop" at the top of its trajectory it still has a huge tangential velocity with respect to the center of the Earth, and another with respect to the center of the Sun, let's not forget. Not sure why anyone needs to get so upset about this.

Try actually throwing a ball straight up. It stops at the top and comes back down into your hands 3 seconds later, although your hands have moved 833.33333 meters in the intervening time. :shock: Djinn Magic!! In reality tiny corrections must be made for air drag losses etc etc but you learn to adjust. If the distance is quite large, then for the hit to occur directly "above" you, you will have to throw the ball not straight up but at some small angle. Small change, even at 300 km height. Satellites are also usually launched from the surface, usually trying to take advantage of the surface rotation speed to reach orbital speed with less energy expenditure. The orbital speed of any satellite is quite huge, but east-west choice will add or subtract this surface tangential speed from the total needed for orbit at any given height. That speed is about a factor of 1 in 25 at most (Mach 1 vs Mach 25 in atmospheric terms for surface air temperature). Likewise, the orbit of the target is described as 300km, not 6678 km which is closer to the exact value considering the mean distance from the center of the Earth. So the discussion is clearly conducted in coordinates set to the surface of the Earth. 300km with respect to what? The poles which are 20 to 40km closer to the center than the Equator? Ocean level? Or Mt. GouriShankar which is like 8 or 9 km above the Equator's radius? All noise.

If a bird happens to be zooming by just as the ball reaches the top, the poor thing will get smacked at a speed corresponding to its flight speed with respect to the surface of the earth. Like say 40kmph. Not 1400 or -600 kmph. The PAKI sat was traveling not at 40kmph but about 18000kmph, or thereabouts. Splat.

2) The DRDO/ISRO demo for Pakis' benefit.

In the given situation from glancing at the DRDO video while watching Pe-Ri Ma-Bin Khan the Mongolian Lawyer, the target appears to have been in a more-or-less polar orbit (north-south with some east-west component) but the kill vehicle appears to have been launched at a much more east-west or west-east trajectory with a southward component. It was not tossed straight up but at some intricately calculated inclination.

Consider if the killer had been launched "straight up" from the equator. It would have been traveling with the tangential speed at the equator, with respect to the center of the Earth (which is like Mach 1 compared to the Mach 25 of orbital speeds). And suppose it had just enough oomph to get up to the orbit height of the PAKI before falling down. It would have been "standing still" for a moment at the top, as the PAKI came along.

Even if had been "standing still", the collision would have been described as "head-on" at some 7.5km/s, IF the accuracy in position was good enough to hit dead center as this one apparently did. My point is that you don't need to give the Killer Bullet any particular speed relative to the target in order to destroy it, you just have to put something in its path, that has far far less kinetic energy.

If you think about it, this why the KI can be launched by a relatively small mobile launcher, because it need only reach about 1/10 the energy needed to go into orbit at the same orbital height.

But in this case, given the inclinations of the orbits (one going approx north-south, the other going about 45 degrees southward but rest east-west, for example) the relative velocity was given as some 10.45km/s. The "bullet" WAS given a lot more energy, to make the demonstration clear.

Consider also the case of polar PAKIs vs. Equatorial KIs. A satellite in polar orbit generally gets to see the whole of Earth's surface because the Earth rotates. One can adjust the orbit height to alter how this is seen. So for example there are "sun-synchronous" orbit heights where, looking from a given point on Earth, one sees the PAKI passing overhead at the same time every day. The satellite may circle the Earth many times a day.

Now consider that you are living on the equator, and one day you get real tired of this daily 3:45:03 PM satellite passage.

You send a "sounding rocket" KI so that it reaches the orbital height of the PAKI at exactly 3:45:03PM. In exactly the right place. The KI is standing still for a moment with respect to you, but with respect to the PAKI it is coming at the PAKI at its orbital speed + the speed due to rotation of the Earth at that height.
Like a bird moving at 18000 or 19000 or 17000 kmph, it will hit the KI with shattering results.

All of the above are of course very imprecise, you have to correct for various factors, but I can't do those calculations in my head (see Physics 101 grade above), nor do I propose to try and impress anyone with those. DRDO engineers did all those calculations well, evidently, leaving only very small corrections to be made in the microseconds before the hit.

3) I am trying to figure out what DRDO meant when they said that an object as high as 1000 km high in orbit could be hit. Is this the limiting case of Ball Thrown Straight Up? The relative velocity at that height, needed for a sure kill, needs to be figured out. Maybe their problem is time to make corrections? Or something about the energy of the launcher, to be mobile? Interesting tidbit I am sure.

4) As height increases, required orbital speed decreases.
Try doing that exercise for the limiting case of GeoStationary Orbit, 36000 km "high", 42378.0147845 km radius. Does this mean that it you launch from the equator and reach there with zero remaining kinetic energy (proportional to speed^2) you will only kiss the PAKI and hence need a soosai vest, no "Hit2K"? Maybe that will be called "K2K" for Kiss to Kill?
Last edited by UlanBatori on 07 Apr 2019 19:06, edited 1 time in total.

UlanBatori
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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby UlanBatori » 07 Apr 2019 19:01

All my interest in this is in why the PM put this demo in a hurriedly-scheduled national announcement. I think it came on the heels of an announcement by TSP that they were closing airspace because of an upcoming IRBM test (of which nothing was heard: did it go phut? )
Now with the words "BDM Infrastructure" and pictures of the mobile mijjile, and elementary considerations of energy requirements above, all becomes clear.

1) F-16s can be taken out by any of the 600,000 planes in the IAF inventory. MiG-21 already demonstrated, Gnats, HF-24, Su-7, Canberras, Mysteres, Spitfires, Caribou, An-24, Sopwith Camels coming up. Not 2 mention Tekas, Su-30, Mirage2K, Su-27, MiG-29.
2) Mid-course intercept has been shown to be quite assured. BMD launcher infrastructure all over the map.
3) Somewhere in the DRDO announcement they say that "so far only minor things like IRBMs could be taken out with full assurance".

End nuke/missile blackmail. Cold Start to RYK can be ordered any day.
Last edited by UlanBatori on 07 Apr 2019 19:12, edited 1 time in total.

Karan M
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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby Karan M » 07 Apr 2019 19:09

arun wrote:
sudeepj wrote:As fun as it is for the jingo side of me, I wish the DRDO had not done such a detailed press conference. Showing the last minute kkv maneuvering, using technical descriptor words that can leak information about the guidance algorithms makes me feel uneasy.


Karan M wrote:Yes, I agree. The problem with DRDO is that lack of GOI support during the UPA era, when UPA used pliable journos like Coupta to target DRDO and push for imports, made it start giving out overtly detailed information in an effort to establish its credibility.


I take a contrary view. DRDO and the NSA, represented by DRDO Chairman Sathees Reddy and Deputy NSA Pankaj Saran are no neophytes with an incredible lack of self awareness of what is in the best interests of my country, India. If they have deemed fit to disclose some details about the ASAT Tests, it is good enough for me as a Resident Tax Paying Indian National to accept the information without second guessing the merits/demerits of disclosure of that information, as to do so would smack of poor taste.


Give us a break on what constitutes poor taste and not, given the extremely ridiculous remarks you made on the IAF and Balakot and whilst disparaging the IAF. Your sudden surge of patriotism while trying to sneak in some troll remarks about tax paying, neophytes, incredible lack of self awareness etc and poor taste and otherwise, are noted and for that notable effort, you earn yourself your second warning. Trying to be too clever by half doesnt work all the time.

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby Karan M » 07 Apr 2019 19:19

SriKumar wrote:Agree about the real need to release deep technical details in public. The impact video shows very clearly all the course changes made in the last one second prior to impact. A NOTAM was issued prior to the test, and so all eyes would have been pointed to that location anyway. I have to believe, though, that release of video would have had clearance at the highest levels. It came out many days after the test.


There are many details given in official GOI literature, including CAG reports which have had to be sanitized and even when done so, are not sufficient. Impact video and details released can lead to the development of counter measures.

I can only surmise that the need to establish credible interception, and prevent FUD from the likes of the FP/Diplomat article by vested interests, forced the need for this extraordinary level of disclosure. And given it has occurred, the operational system will have further capabilities in play, to counter any disadvantages (ie countermeasure development) gained from the release of this one video.

hnair
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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby hnair » 07 Apr 2019 19:33

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/strategic_front/status/1114523893383847936 ---> During missile assembly.

Image



Cannister behind! 8)

Suresh S
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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby Suresh S » 07 Apr 2019 20:37

Just watching their exchanges makes me think burnol is a growth stock in my portfolio if nda2 happens

Man I yenjoyed that so much

syam
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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby syam » 07 Apr 2019 21:17

^^ Where did this exchange happen?

Prasad
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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby Prasad » 07 Apr 2019 21:53

Karan & others,
Remember back in Feb, RM said DRDO needs to talk more?


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