HJT-36 Sitara Intermediate Jet Trainer: News & Discussion - 24 April 2019

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Re: HJT-36 Sitara Intermediate Jet Trainer: News & Discussion - 24 April 2019

Post by Venu »

Rakesh wrote:Twitter thread courtesy of IR....please click on link below, for more info.

https://twitter.com/Indrani1_Roy/status ... 52418?s=20
In the next iteration, I wish they work on repositioning the forward LG. Right now it is occupying the real estate in the nose cone section which can house useful equipment.
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Re: HJT-36 Sitara Intermediate Jet Trainer: News & Discussion - 24 April 2019

Post by Maria »

Venu wrote:
Rakesh wrote:Twitter thread courtesy of IR....please click on link below, for more info.

https://twitter.com/Indrani1_Roy/status ... 52418?s=20
In the next iteration, I wish they work on repositioning the forward LG. Right now it is occupying the real estate in the nose cone section which can house useful equipment.
For a radar?
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Re: HJT-36 Sitara Intermediate Jet Trainer: News & Discussion - 24 April 2019

Post by basant »

When even Hawks don't have radar, why would IJT need it?
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Re: HJT-36 Sitara Intermediate Jet Trainer: News & Discussion - 24 April 2019

Post by ks_sachin »

basant wrote:When even Hawks don't have radar, why would IJT need it?
Its a BRF requirement!!!
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Re: HJT-36 Sitara Intermediate Jet Trainer: News & Discussion - 24 April 2019

Post by hnair »

I am not even going to visit this thread until I see a Brahmos slung underneath two of these flying in tandem. These look so under-armed
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Re: HJT-36 Sitara Intermediate Jet Trainer: News & Discussion - 24 April 2019

Post by Pratyush »

hnair wrote:I am not even going to visit this thread until I see a Brahmos slung underneath two of these flying in tandem. These look so under-armed
This is the official BRFSQR. :mrgreen:

It better be met. :twisted:
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Re: HJT-36 Sitara Intermediate Jet Trainer: News & Discussion - 24 April 2019

Post by basant »

The more juicer 'scandal' would be the 'removal' of (APG-66H multi-mode radar) radar that is available in another variant from the requirements of the Indian variant in exchange for the "simulation for frontline sensors and weapons".
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Re: HJT-36 Sitara Intermediate Jet Trainer: News & Discussion - 24 April 2019

Post by Maria »

basant wrote:When even Hawks don't have radar, why would IJT need it?
The Hawk 200 does have the AN/APG-66H radar and is a multi-role platform. Yes, it has not seen real front-line action except for the Malaysians attacking Filipino rebels from Sulu who mounted an unsuccessful incursion.

However, it will be great for the MIC here if we could have a multi-role fighter of this sort because the IP is ours unlike that of the Hawk.

I am glad that HAL is already thinking on these lines and I am sure the IAF will develop a requirement for this class.
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Re: HJT-36 Sitara Intermediate Jet Trainer: News & Discussion - 24 April 2019

Post by Philip »

What is the status now of the IJT? Is it acceptable to the IAF? Secondly,what would be the max. payload it could carry and weapon types, to operate as a CS/GA aircraft? The Hawk-I is being touted for that role,the IJT should be a cheaper option if the payload is worthwhile.
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Re: HJT-36 Sitara Intermediate Jet Trainer: News & Discussion - 24 April 2019

Post by ks_sachin »

Philip wrote:What is the status now of the IJT? Is it acceptable to the IAF? Secondly,what would be the max. payload it could carry and weapon types, to operate as a CS/GA aircraft? The Hawk-I is being touted for that role,the IJT should be a cheaper option if the payload is worthwhile.
First let it finish flight certification for a trainer role!
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Re: HJT-36 Sitara Intermediate Jet Trainer: News & Discussion - 24 April 2019

Post by Vips »

Any update on the spin trials that were scheduled to happen a couple of months back?
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Re: HJT-36 Sitara Intermediate Jet Trainer: News & Discussion - 24 April 2019

Post by prabhug »

Hi
I would love it being upgraded with HAL engine .This project should start now . Can this take a role of a LCH ??

Thanks

PRabhu.G
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Re: HJT-36 Sitara Intermediate Jet Trainer: News & Discussion - 24 April 2019

Post by ks_sachin »

prabhug wrote:Hi
I would love it being upgraded with HAL engine .This project should start now . Can this take a role of a LCH ??

Thanks

PRabhu.G
And under development aircraft with a new as yet unavailable engine!!!!

Have some care friend.
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Re: HJT-36 Sitara Intermediate Jet Trainer: News & Discussion - 24 April 2019

Post by mody »

The HAL HTFE-25 engine is supposed to be used with IJT-36. However, this can only happen once the plane itself has been certified and the engine has also be fully tested and certified. Till then the development of the IJT-36 will happen with the AL-55I engines only.

Though I guess due in part to the AL-55i engines, I think even if the spin trials to conclude within the next couple of months and the IJT-36 receives IOC certificate by March 2022, the production and induction of the same will be delayed.
IAF may demand a better engine then the AL-55I. Paying the Russians to improve the same would be a waste. The HTFE-25 should be completed as fast as possible by HAL. The recent development Isothermal compressor blades for the Adour engine of the Jaguar is good news on this front.
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Re: HJT-36 Sitara Intermediate Jet Trainer: News & Discussion - 24 April 2019

Post by prabhug »

Only we start now we can avoid imports in the future. We have to tie the program to HAL 36Gen2 and start the activity .

My 2 paisa

Cheers
Prabhu.G
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Re: HJT-36 Sitara Intermediate Jet Trainer: News & Discussion - 24 April 2019

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/TheAvenger82/status ... 49089?s=20 --->

- Indian Navy and Indian Air Force HJT-36 intermediate jet trainer inches closer towards final stage of certification
- Russia's United Engine Corporation has supplied 2 improved AL-55I turbojet engines
- 16 AL-55I engines were already supplied to #HAL earlier
- IAF is 100 trainers short

Image
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Re: HJT-36 Sitara Intermediate Jet Trainer: News & Discussion - 24 April 2019

Post by YashG »

HTT40 --> HJT-36 --> Hawk/i-Hawk ---> LIFT

Thats the complete training chain indigenised.
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Re: HJT-36 Sitara Intermediate Jet Trainer: News & Discussion - 24 April 2019

Post by Yagnasri »

Mango man question. Can't we use derated Kaveri dry version for Sitara?
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Re: HJT-36 Sitara Intermediate Jet Trainer: News & Discussion - 24 April 2019

Post by Pratyush »

Yagnasri wrote:Mango man question. Can't we use derated Kaveri dry version for Sitara?
Mango man answer :D no it cannot be used with Sitara. Reason, too big, too powerful, too expensive.

Even the HTFE 25 in its current from might be too powerful for Sitara. It might have to be derated for its use in Sitara. Provided it actually will fit in the plane.
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Re: HJT-36 Sitara Intermediate Jet Trainer: News & Discussion - 24 April 2019

Post by nachiket »

Pratyush wrote: Even the HTFE 25 in its current from might be too powerful for Sitara. It might have to be derated for its use in Sitara. Provided it actually will fit in the plane.
As per wiki HTFE-25 is shorter in length than the AL-55 and has the same diameter. So it might very well fit. It is 35kg heavier though.
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Re: HJT-36 Sitara Intermediate Jet Trainer: News & Discussion - 24 April 2019

Post by mody »

IJT Sitara clears spin trials!!!!

Great news....piloted by HVT sir.
Hopefully IAF will induct about 40-60 of these birds.
With the HTT-40, IJT-36, i-Hawk and LCA-SPORT, HAL can start offering a complete flight training package.

Hopefully in the future we might see it flying with the HTFE-25 engine as well.

Indigenous IJT demonstrates more capabilities successfully
https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/other/in ... d=msedgntp
06 Jan 2022
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Re: HJT-36 Sitara Intermediate Jet Trainer: News & Discussion - 24 April 2019

Post by uddu »

The correct link to HJT article is this

Indigenous IJT demonstrates more capabilities successfully
https://www.financialexpress.com/defenc ... y/2400190/
06 Jan 2022
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Re: HJT-36 Sitara Intermediate Jet Trainer: News & Discussion - 24 April 2019

Post by Rakesh »

Excellent news. I have updated the first post of this thread.
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Re: HJT-36 Sitara Intermediate Jet Trainer: News & Discussion - 24 April 2019

Post by Avinandan »

Apologies if this has been discussed already.

IAF have switched now to 2 aircraft training mode since 2015. Reference Link

How difficult would it be for IAF to move back to 3 aircraft course ?
Considering IAF have lower CAPEX these years how the induction plan would be?

It took quite a long time to achieve so far.
Wonder if all comparable jet trainers (e.g. Aermacchi M345, Karakoram-8,IA-63 Pampa,Kawasaki T-4 have undergone such rigorous spin tests validation.
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Re: HJT-36 Sitara Intermediate Jet Trainer: News & Discussion - 24 April 2019

Post by ks_sachin »

Avinandan wrote:
It took quite a long time to achieve so far.
Wonder if all comparable jet trainers (e.g. Aermacchi M345, Karakoram-8,IA-63 Pampa,Kawasaki T-4 have undergone such rigorous spin tests validation.
Mate what kind of question is that. Being able to go into a spin and recover is fundamental to a trainer and pilot training.
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Re: HJT-36 Sitara Intermediate Jet Trainer: News & Discussion - 24 April 2019

Post by Avinandan »

ks_sachine Saar, IJT was almost getting inducted in early 2014, the final and crucial stall and spin tests plagued the program thereafter.
So we waited another 7-8 long years to come to this stage.

Indranil Saar's excellent article for reference : link

I doubt that all other manufacturers would have established their design (Spin test compliant) in their 1st iteration itself.
Especially Chinese K-8. Hence this question.
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Re: HJT-36 Sitara Intermediate Jet Trainer: News & Discussion - 24 April 2019

Post by Zynda »

Intermediate Jet Trainer has cleared a major milestone, says HAL chief
The IJT needs another two years of testing. There were some major modifications done in the aircraft. So all the earlier tests have to be repeated and demonstrated in the new configuration,” Mr. Madhavan said. “If the requirement [from the IAF] comes within that time, we can roll out immediately,” he stated.

With this, the HAL would have the entire range of trainer aircraft — HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft (BTA), the IJT, Hawk Advanced Jet Trainer (AJT) and the Lead-in Fighter Trainer (LIFT) being conceptualised based on the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas twin seat trainer aircraft, Mr. Madhavan noted.
Hawk is a BAe product which is being assembled/fabricated by HAL...not sure if they can take end-end ownership of the product like others in the list.
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Re: HJT-36 Sitara Intermediate Jet Trainer: News & Discussion - 24 April 2019

Post by Haridas »

Yagnasri wrote:Mango man question. Can't we use derated Kaveri dry version for Sitara?
Too heavy. Will change CG requiring total redesign.
+ more expensive then HTFE25 or current roosi injin.
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Re: HJT-36 Sitara Intermediate Jet Trainer: News & Discussion - 24 April 2019

Post by ks_sachin »

Avinandan wrote:ks_sachine Saar, IJT was almost getting inducted in early 2014, the final and crucial stall and spin tests plagued the program thereafter.
So we waited another 7-8 long years to come to this stage.

Indranil Saar's excellent article for reference : link

I doubt that all other manufacturers would have established their design (Spin test compliant) in their 1st iteration itself.
Especially Chinese K-8. Hence this question.
Avinandan spin recovery is one of the crucial points taught to rookie pilots. You cannot have a trainer aircraft that does not allow this in a controlled manner. These requirements were known to HAL from day dot.
You dilute these training requirements you end up loosing fighter aircraft in sq service.
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Re: HJT-36 Sitara Intermediate Jet Trainer: News & Discussion - 24 April 2019

Post by Indranil »

Haridas wrote:
Yagnasri wrote:Mango man question. Can't we use derated Kaveri dry version for Sitara?
Too heavy. Will change CG requiring total redesign.
+ more expensive then HTFE25 or current roosi injin.
They can balance the CG movement. The engine is actually much more closer to the CG than the nose. Putting a derated 20 kN HTFE into IJT (at MLU) is part of the original plan.
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Re: HJT-36 Sitara Intermediate Jet Trainer: News & Discussion - 24 April 2019

Post by Rakesh »

Indranil wrote: They can balance the CG movement. The engine is actually much more closer to the CG than the nose. Putting a derated 20 kN HTFE into IJT (at MLU) is part of the original plan.
IR, I found pictures of S3853 in flight. I did not know that it flew, as I only knew about S3854. Regardless, I updated the first page of this thread. Are you aware of any other serial numbers that have flown?
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Re: HJT-36 Sitara Intermediate Jet Trainer: News & Discussion - 24 April 2019

Post by Gyan »

nachiket wrote:
Pratyush wrote: Even the HTFE 25 in its current from might be too powerful for Sitara. It might have to be derated for its use in Sitara. Provided it actually will fit in the plane.
As per wiki HTFE-25 is shorter in length than the AL-55 and has the same diameter. So it might very well fit. It is 35kg heavier though.
I hope trying to develop an engine better than AL-55 is not too ambitious
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Re: HJT-36 Sitara Intermediate Jet Trainer: News & Discussion - 24 April 2019

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/Chopsyturvey/status ... 71618?s=20 ---> Aviation Art @SauravChordia. Wow!

Image
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Re: HJT-36 Sitara Intermediate Jet Trainer: News & Discussion - 24 April 2019

Post by Aditya G »

This has probably been asked already, but is there a space for IJT within IAF's training syllabus - between prop trainer and AJT?
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Re: HJT-36 Sitara Intermediate Jet Trainer: News & Discussion - 24 April 2019

Post by Barath »

The nominal training syllabus would indeed have that IJT. The IAF nominally follows a III stage syllabus (1- Basic, II - Intermediate and III-Advanced) followed by operational training

https://www.aviatorsbuzz.com/blogs/unde ... ejas-lift/

Basic training would be 6 months on a prop aircraft - Pilatus PC7 mk2 replaced the Deepak HPT - 32. HAL is developing the HTT-40 for this. Got an RFPfor 70 HTT-40 in Feb 2021

Intermediate training would be ~6 months - The Kiranis nominal, and IJT-Sitara is targeted for this., as a jet trainer. A suitable turboprop can be used for this too. Due to Kiran getting old and in poor condition, and Sitara getting delayed; the IAF can and did use the same PC7 Mk2. Maybe also fly some Kirans too - it is not formally retired

https://www.business-standard.com/artic ... 808_1.html
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... 877048.cms

Advanced training for fast jet pilots is on the BAE Hawk 132

---
The operational training is where the pilots actually start to use many of teh advanced avionics, weapons, radar etc
https://www.aviatorsbuzz.com/blogs/unde ... ejas-lift/

HAL is positioning Tejas LIFT as the (centralized?) trainer which will substitute some of that operational training in squadron.
AFAIK, unlike the basic or intermediate trainers, there is no AoN or order for this. In theory LIFT could also substitute for non Tejas lead in flight training (Mig, MKI, Jag, rafale..), though presumably it would require additional development.

Also, an advanced Hawk or weaponized hawk (see Hawk-i initiative/plane) might be able to help with some of that operational training (stores, weapons, possibly even radar, like in the Hawk 200 series). AFAIK, the IAF declined this a few years ago, but HAL is continuing with the Hawk-i and weapons integration. Potentially for other benefits

The other global trend is to leverage simulation increasingly for training along with process tweaks. Not sure when the segregation between the different branches (choppers, heavies etc) happens. But I assume drone pilots also might come in for future.

---
IAF Air Marshal Ramesh Rai (retd), former AOC-in-C of the IAF’s Training Command had written a few years ago about possibility and cost benefits of using 2 aircraft (PC 7 Mk II and Hawk) for 3 stage training, and other countries doing it. But that was when the Sitara was stuck, and I don't think it took into account Pilatus blacklist/ban either.

https://www.indiastrategic.in/topstorie ... _Force.htm
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Re: HJT-36 Sitara Intermediate Jet Trainer: News & Discussion - 24 April 2019

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/Indrani1_Roy/status ... 70688?s=20 ---> Challenge for desi bird watchers. Can you spot one of the latest changes in the IJT?

https://twitter.com/Indrani1_Roy/status ... 34477?s=20 ---> They have introduced a leading-edge extension beyond the last wing fence on each wing. These extensions are shaped such that the wing behind these extensions stall after the wing root. This allows for a much more controlled stall and entry into the flat spin.

Image

Image
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Re: HJT-36 Sitara Intermediate Jet Trainer: News & Discussion - 24 April 2019

Post by Indranil »

Thank you Rakesh!
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Re: HJT-36 Sitara Intermediate Jet Trainer: News & Discussion - 24 April 2019

Post by Rakesh »

Indranil wrote:Thank you Rakesh!
The thanks goes to you.
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Re: HJT-36 Sitara Intermediate Jet Trainer: News & Discussion - 24 April 2019

Post by Rakesh »

HVT Sir during a HJT-36 test flight...

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/15292 ... 0xP_lWRYgg ---> #NewProfilePic

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