HJT-36 Sitara Intermediate Jet Trainer: News & Discussion - 24 April 2019

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SBajwa
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Re: HJT-36 Sitara Intermediate Jet Trainer: News & Discussion - 24 April 2019

Post by SBajwa »

Rakesh is the best. Thank you brother.
Kersi
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Re: HJT-36 Sitara Intermediate Jet Trainer: News & Discussion - 24 April 2019

Post by Kersi »

What is the latest status of our Sitara ?
YashG
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Re: HJT-36 Sitara Intermediate Jet Trainer: News & Discussion - 24 April 2019

Post by YashG »

I saw HJT36 on a test sortie today at HAL.

@Mods - Is it kosher to report any test sorties at HAL here ?
Pratyush
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Re: HJT-36 Sitara Intermediate Jet Trainer: News & Discussion - 24 April 2019

Post by Pratyush »

If it can be seen by general public. Then I don't see why this should be an issue.
ks_sachin
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Re: HJT-36 Sitara Intermediate Jet Trainer: News & Discussion - 24 April 2019

Post by ks_sachin »

Pratyush ji,

Aam aadmi would not know difference between HJT and Su30.
But on BRF we can see and figure out which spin and stall teat has failed and how they dont meet GSQR.

Plus seeing is one thing but reporting it in anotjernmatter as per OSA.
MeshaVishwas
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Re: HJT-36 Sitara Intermediate Jet Trainer: News & Discussion - 24 April 2019

Post by MeshaVishwas »

Nothing to do with the HJT-36 but just saw this old image from 1970 on the Kiran proto and wanted to share this but no active dhaagas on Kiran alive now.

Caption reads:
The HJT-16 second prototype displayed at Expo’70 in Osaka, which has the sliding canopy differed from production model.
Image Source: here

All the best to HJT-36, big shoes to fill.

Image
Kersi
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Re: HJT-36 Sitara Intermediate Jet Trainer: News & Discussion - 24 April 2019

Post by Kersi »

Isn't our Kiran "inspired" from Jet Provost ?
MeshaVishwas
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Re: HJT-36 Sitara Intermediate Jet Trainer: News & Discussion - 24 April 2019

Post by MeshaVishwas »

^^
Couldn't find anything to support that claim.
Kiran is Sh. Raj Mahindra Ji's baby(Iirc, he also happened to be the Chief Designer of the Tejas pgm in initial days?)
Best person to answer would be Jagan gaaru.


Something special from the VayuSena here:
Operating beyond the Operator's limit!!
An enthralling lecture filled with experiences on IJT's spin testing was conducted by W/C Patel & W/C Awasthi from HAL
Our budding testers are now all set to take Kiran ac to its limits of Alpha,in the most thrilling phase of Spin testing
Link: here
Warning: Armchair flying like a kid expected after seeing the Kiran dancing. :D
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Re: HJT-36 Sitara Intermediate Jet Trainer: News & Discussion - 24 April 2019

Post by Rakesh »

‘Incorrect assessment’ led to delays in development of HAL’s intermediate jet trainer, says CAG
https://theprint.in/defence/incorrect-a ... g/1710694/
11 August 2023
Govt had sanctioned Rs 180 crore for project in 1999. Improper engine selection had a cascading effect on design and development process of aircraft, says auditor.
Pratyush
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Re: HJT-36 Sitara Intermediate Jet Trainer: News & Discussion - 24 April 2019

Post by Pratyush »

I don't particularly appreciate the CAG reports.

If an incorrect selection of engine led to delays?

Was it known in 1999 that the engine being selected was a total failure?

Or would be a total failure in the future?

The answer to above is a resounding NO.

But the CAG is not bothered by such minor distraction.

Just that aircraft was delayed.
prashantsharma
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Re: HJT-36 Sitara Intermediate Jet Trainer: News & Discussion - 24 April 2019

Post by prashantsharma »

CAG is able to identify one issue (the engine selection) because it was easy to pickup because of all that has been written about it in media in the past. CAG won't be able to identify the other reasons which are far more technical such as the aerodynamic design, aerofoil design, design of controls, control surfaces, ease of flying, forces, drag, moments, engine performance, fuel consumption, CoG, weights etc. which are also contributing to the failure of the project. Yes I say failure because I don't see it being inducted into the airforce. It hasn't even been offered to IAF yet for trials.
prashantsharma
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Re: HJT-36 Sitara Intermediate Jet Trainer: News & Discussion - 24 April 2019

Post by prashantsharma »

Having said this, I am not sure if deciding to change the engine midway through design or flight testing due to problems or availability of a better / new option is really an audit issue? Likewise for all the other design and technical choices.

HAL would have been content to let CAG chew on its engine bone and not poke it's nose into all the other issues that plague this aircraft. :-)
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Re: HJT-36 Sitara Intermediate Jet Trainer: News & Discussion - 24 April 2019

Post by Rakesh »

https://x.com/AviationWall/status/17080 ... 37492?s=20 ---> Say cheez. A master shot by @zone5aviation of the HAL IJT HJT-36.

Image
ramana
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Re: HJT-36 Sitara Intermediate Jet Trainer: News & Discussion - 24 April 2019

Post by ramana »

prashantsharma wrote: 14 Aug 2023 10:43 Having said this, I am not sure if deciding to change the engine midway through design or flight testing due to problems or the availability of a better / new option is really an audit issue? Likewise for all the other design and technical choices.

HAL would have been content to let CAG chew on its engine bone and not poke it's nose into all the other issues that plague this aircraft. :-)

I know it may sound strange but financial audit reveals and often supports the technical progress report.
When one sees funds being spent and the technical progress report does not explain its time for a deep dive.
Often financial audit gives an X-ray while tech Progress is like a surface scan.
To me the project delay was due to the inadequate engine is what it is saying.

BTW, the article gives an excellent example of the Earned Value Management (EVM) process.
The project was sanctioned in 1999 for Rs 180 crores.
Project complete in March 2022 for Rs 710 crores
Cost over run= 710/180= 3.94

Schedule Overun. They don't give when the original project was to be complete but in 2005 ie 5 years after sanction, they ordered a new engine.
Will take that as the estimated project completion year.
So Schedule overrun is 2022-2005= 17 years(estimated)

They ran into technical problems as the French engine was underpowered for the Sitara.
The new engine took 4 years to arrive. Adds more delay.
Then they find the engine is too powerful and they need to make design changes.

Here it begs the question no one sought fit to use the 4 years to figure out the spin calculations for the new engine.
The report concluded that the HAL should have anticipated the impact of integrating a new engine at a later stage and taken timely measures to resolve issues pertaining to spin and stall characteristics.
Very accurate comment.

BTW, WIKI says: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_HJT-36_Sitara
All production models will use the more powerful NPO Saturn AL-55I engine with about 16.9 kN of thrust, as stipulated by the 2005 air staff requirements from the Air Force.

A low-cost way to learn program management.

The CAG should have mentioned the change in Air Staff requirements in 2005.
fanne
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Re: HJT-36 Sitara Intermediate Jet Trainer: News & Discussion - 24 April 2019

Post by fanne »

One other aspect here that can be further looked is can we develop a similar engine in house. Tech wise, it is 2 generations behind what we have achieved with Kaveri (and at least a generation behind the Jags engine that we manufacture in house). Our issue with Kaveri is mainly in the afterburner section and this engine has none (none is needed for trainer). We should start making these low tech engine ourselves. These engines, once developed good easily serve for 100 years (The HJT engine is from 1969). Yes it will take effort, but the same ecosystem can be leveraged to make so many low tech engines and also support Kaveri/Ganga type initiative. In crawl, walk and run analogy, this is the walk part while Kaveri is the run part.
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Re: HJT-36 Sitara Intermediate Jet Trainer: News & Discussion - 24 April 2019

Post by Rakesh »

S-3854 flew yesterday, as per HVT Sir.

https://x.com/Rethik_D/status/1768576451778142715?s=20 (This link indicates the differences from the earlier prototype).

https://x.com/hvtiaf_bharat/status/1768 ... 74330?s=20 ---> picture @hari_hawker

Image
Rakesh
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Re: HJT-36 Sitara Intermediate Jet Trainer: News & Discussion - 24 April 2019

Post by Rakesh »

Rakesh wrote: 15 Mar 2024 20:34 S-3854 flew yesterday, as per HVT Sir.

https://x.com/Rethik_D/status/1768576451778142715?s=20 (This link indicates the differences from the earlier prototype).

https://x.com/hvtiaf_bharat/status/1768 ... 74330?s=20 ---> picture @hari_hawker
This was tweeted on 15 Feb 2024

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1758 ... 27336?s=20 ---> HAL is in process of getting this certified.

- All the issues resolved
- Testing
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