Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Thakur_B
BRFite
Posts: 1462
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Thakur_B » 02 Aug 2019 08:58

Please use this thread as the previous one is locked.

Last post of previous thread.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4016&p=2368544#p2368544

Thakur_B
BRFite
Posts: 1462
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Thakur_B » 02 Aug 2019 09:04

:roll:

https://www.financialexpress.com/defenc ... r/1641735/

Sniper rifle RFP scrapped as the RFP was for rifles and ammunition. None of the bidders manufactured ammunition. Who would have thought. :roll:

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 53478
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 03 Aug 2019 02:58

Thanks. Glad you expanded topic.
Can go all the way to platoon, company, battalion level arms.

Thakur_B
BRFite
Posts: 1462
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Thakur_B » 13 Aug 2019 20:22

HK PSG1 with CRPF QRT.

Image

Thakur_B
BRFite
Posts: 1462
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Thakur_B » 13 Aug 2019 20:37



A look into Franchi SPAS15 tactical shotgun used by NSG

Thakur_B
BRFite
Posts: 1462
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Thakur_B » 22 Aug 2019 06:43

CISF has adopted the JVPC. IMO JVPC is more suited for police and sentry duties. Sub compact carbines have limited application in Army where a normal carbine shooting standard ammo is required. I expect JVPC to replace large number of rifles in police role.

Image
Image

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 53478
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 22 Aug 2019 07:20

Thakur_B, I heard that the special forces under the police have various rifles each with different ammo. Leads to problems if they have to deploy jointly in an emergency. Every state has its own set of weapons unique to themselves.

Thakur_B
BRFite
Posts: 1462
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Thakur_B » 22 Aug 2019 07:49

^^ Majority of the SWAT units have standardised on SiG 550 family as a result of cross training with NSG. Notable exception are MP police Hawk and Bangalore police which have opted for Excalibur. Octopus from Hyderabad have settled on 9 mm conversion of M4. While UP and Delhi SWAT use vanilla AKM, while Mumbai Force One uses M4 and MP5.

souravB
BRFite
Posts: 537
Joined: 07 Jun 2018 13:52

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby souravB » 22 Aug 2019 15:00

Kerala Police buying 500 INSAS for 3.6 Crores!!!!
As per my madrassa math cost of each rifle comes to be >$1000. Also as per some discussions on the SM, the model is INSAS 1B1 with the folding butt. How blatantly people be in decision chains let themselves be ripped off.
Also for comparison 5.56 FMJ bullets are being sold at almost double the price of the global market.

Gyan
BRFite
Posts: 1249
Joined: 26 Aug 2016 19:14

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Gyan » 23 Aug 2019 15:39

The news report might be incorrect. IIRC As per CAG reports, INSAS Costs Rs. 50,000 with Marginal cost of Rs. 25,000. Further State purchases are subsidised from 50% to 90% by Central Govt

The deal may include things like Magazines, cleaning rod, repair equipment etc which may not be properly captured by the article.

Small Arms dalals have a very strong lobby in India. Hence OFB will always be hammered in news Articles.

Having said this, for Police use, JVPC is ideal as well as adequate. INSAS is overkill.

souravB
BRFite
Posts: 537
Joined: 07 Jun 2018 13:52

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby souravB » 23 Aug 2019 18:37

Gyan ji, I do not think the report is incorrect. INSAS used to cost 50k at 2010 price. OFB must be adding inflation to it. Also remember as per report R2 costs around 75k/piece so I am not amazed if OFB is asking 60-65k/piece for the INSAS.
Also any rifle purchase is incomplete without those accessories. It is kind of staple if rifles are purchased for law enforcement. What adds over and beyond the purchase of rifles are additional magazines, training, accessories etc. There is no indication that accessories/training is being sought by the Kerala Police.

Gyan
BRFite
Posts: 1249
Joined: 26 Aug 2016 19:14

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Gyan » 24 Aug 2019 22:20

My conjecture is that it's 1500 INSAS rifles and not 500 but I cannot prove it.

Gyan
BRFite
Posts: 1249
Joined: 26 Aug 2016 19:14

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Gyan » 24 Aug 2019 22:24

Anyway changing the topic, there has been no major order for infantry NVDs after 2013 when 30000 were ordered. These NVDs are being delivered @5000 approx per annum. There is lack of open source data on infantry level thermal imagers for small arms but I think around 1000 have been procured in ad hoc manner (surveillance thermal imagers are different).


NVDs & Thermal imagers for infantry is recognised as a major deficiency in our forces. The minimum need is estimated at around 1.5 lakh NVDs & 1 lakh uncooled thermal imagers for infantry soldiers as personal equipment.

There are some ad hoc RFIs but no systematic attempt to plug this deficiency. I feel that this will come to haunt us in any major confrontation with Pakistan. Then as usual Political system will be blamed.

Gyan
BRFite
Posts: 1249
Joined: 26 Aug 2016 19:14

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Gyan » 24 Aug 2019 22:40

Another major deficiency is bullet proof helmets with protection against atleast mild steel 7.62*39 bullets and mid power day light scopes like ACOG.

While there has been movement for new helmets that can protect against 9mm rounds but better ceramic helmets are not been procured even though they can be easily manufactured in India.

Similarly, there is no recognition of General issue of mid power scopes like ACOG. Again some ad hoc base Commanders are using discretionary funds to procure Mid power scopes but one would have hoped more extensive institutionalised procurement. Similarly procurement of Red dot or halographic sights are required more extensively for carbines.

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7227
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby nachiket » 28 Aug 2019 06:12

Gyan wrote:Another major deficiency is bullet proof helmets with protection against atleast mild steel 7.62*39 bullets and mid power day light scopes like ACOG.

While there has been movement for new helmets that can protect against 9mm rounds but better ceramic helmets are not been procured even though they can be easily manufactured in India.

Which ceramic helmet can protect against 7.62x39 ammo? Any links? AFAIK, the only helmet providing that protection is the Patka, but that has its own issues (weight, area of head covered etc.).

Gyan
BRFite
Posts: 1249
Joined: 26 Aug 2016 19:14

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Gyan » 28 Aug 2019 20:30

Ceramic Helmets have come in now. Among others Same Company from which BPJs have been ordered also manufactures ceramic reinforced Helmets.

Google it

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 53478
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 28 Aug 2019 20:58

Gyan wrote:Ceramic Helmets have come in now. Among others Same Company from which BPJs have been ordered also manufactures ceramic reinforced Helmets.

Google it

If you know it you can provide a link.
This should be collaborative environment and not gnan driven.

Thakur_B
BRFite
Posts: 1462
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Thakur_B » 28 Aug 2019 21:12

Gyan wrote:Ceramic Helmets have come in now. Among others Same Company from which BPJs have been ordered also manufactures ceramic reinforced Helmets.

Google it


Pray tell, which ballistic helmets are rated level III or higher?

Snehashis
BRFite
Posts: 198
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Snehashis » 28 Aug 2019 22:24

nachiket wrote:
Gyan wrote:Another major deficiency is bullet proof helmets with protection against atleast mild steel 7.62*39 bullets and mid power day light scopes like ACOG.

While there has been movement for new helmets that can protect against 9mm rounds but better ceramic helmets are not been procured even though they can be easily manufactured in India.

Which ceramic helmet can protect against 7.62x39 ammo? Any links? AFAIK, the only helmet providing that protection is the Patka, but that has its own issues (weight, area of head covered etc.).


I think he is talking about this PASGT helmets. It claims "Level IIIA protection with V50 up to 700 m/s".

In 2017 we ordered 1,58,279 Mukut helmets from the same company. Not sure Mukut is as strong as PAGST.

https://www.mku.com/en/Strong-Mukut

https://www.mku.com/en/products/PASGT

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7227
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby nachiket » 29 Aug 2019 00:05

Snehashis wrote:I think he is talking about this PASGT helmets. It claims "Level IIIA protection with V50 up to 700 m/s".

In 2017 we ordered 1,58,279 Mukut helmets from the same company. Not sure Mukut is as strong as PAGST.

https://www.mku.com/en/Strong-Mukut

https://www.mku.com/en/products/PASGT

I know about PASGT helmets. Even that is old technology now. But NIJ Level IIIA protection means protection from handgun and sub-machine gun rounds like 9x19mm. It does not protect against rifle rounds like 7.62x39mm or 5.56x45mm.

Thakur_B
BRFite
Posts: 1462
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Thakur_B » 30 Aug 2019 15:36

Image

IOF 7.62x51 mm sniper rifle in service with crpf

Thakur_B
BRFite
Posts: 1462
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Thakur_B » 31 Aug 2019 10:18

Image

Remote weapon station Sharang by L&T.

Gyan
BRFite
Posts: 1249
Joined: 26 Aug 2016 19:14

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Gyan » 31 Aug 2019 10:50

I am not able to locate it on website, internet but when we Visited Def Expo, SMPP was displaying Helmets with Ceramic components, plates similar to BPJ, which were bullet proof for 7.62*39.


Something like this, scroll down for helmet

https://defense-update.com/20170715_def ... -2017.html

Thakur_B
BRFite
Posts: 1462
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Thakur_B » 31 Aug 2019 11:07

Gyan wrote:I am not able to locate it on website, internet but when we Visited Def Expo, SMPP was displaying Helmets with Ceramic components, plates similar to BPJ, which were bullet proof for 7.62*39.


Something like this, scroll down for helmet

https://defense-update.com/20170715_def ... -2017.html


That is based upon armour kit over and above standard helmet. Sort of Patka like concept.


Gyan
BRFite
Posts: 1249
Joined: 26 Aug 2016 19:14

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Gyan » 31 Aug 2019 11:16

Actually, purchasing silicon carbide Raw Material and sintering it into Helmets is relatively low tech.

Even new US ECH helmets offer more protection but not really bullet proof.

Thakur_B
BRFite
Posts: 1462
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Thakur_B » 31 Aug 2019 11:22

^^ Which brings us back to the conclusion that there are currently no helmets that meet or exceed NIJ level III protection. The best commercially available, non weight prohibitive level of protection available is level IIIA which is what the helmets being procured meet.

ashishvikas
BRFite
Posts: 442
Joined: 17 Oct 2016 14:18

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby ashishvikas » 31 Aug 2019 13:55

Thakur_B wrote:Image

Remote weapon station Sharang by L&T.


L&T Displays New SHARANG RWS – Asian Aerospace latest industry news & Asia Defence Technology trends

https://www.asiatrade.com.au/lt-display ... gy-trends/


Larsen & Toubro Defence is displaying a
new Remote Weapon System (RWS) at the ongoing IMDEX, as it seeks to make a
greater mark in the export market for defence equipment. The new SHARANG
compact RWS has been developed for land based military vehicles, but is being
displayed at IMDEX as the company seeks to bring about a greater awareness of
its military portfolio.

“L&T developed the SHARANG weapon mount
with the vision of filling in a perceived gap for a cost-effective weapon
mount. It is cost effective solution for land systems,” a company official
tells Daily News.

The indigenously designed and developed
weapon system does not use an export restricted parts of systems.

The SHARANG RWS supports 5.56mm and 7.62
PKT machine guns and this modular system is configurable and can be installed in different
configurations on tracked and wheeled Infantry Combat Vehicles (ICV); Armoured
Personnel Carriers (APCs), mine resistant vehicles and 4X4s.

It can also be deployed in static
installations like bunkers.

rkhanna
BRFite
Posts: 1159
Joined: 02 Jul 2006 02:35

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby rkhanna » 05 Sep 2019 15:05

Why the Navy Seals Rejected the SCAR-H

https://thenewsrep.com/118625/former-na ... com-rifle/

"Reid goes into detail about his experiences on deployment with the SCAR and how he (as well as many other SEALs) suffered through repeated malfunctions until he finally decided to switch back to the M4 despite often finding himself in 1,000 meter engagements. In his mind, the added range and accuracy of the 7.62 chambered SCAR simply wasn’t worth the headaches."

<Video in Link>

Thakur_B
BRFite
Posts: 1462
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Thakur_B » 05 Sep 2019 19:28

rkhanna wrote:Why the Navy Seals Rejected the SCAR-H

https://thenewsrep.com/118625/former-na ... com-rifle/

"Reid goes into detail about his experiences on deployment with the SCAR and how he (as well as many other SEALs) suffered through repeated malfunctions until he finally decided to switch back to the M4 despite often finding himself in 1,000 meter engagements. In his mind, the added range and accuracy of the 7.62 chambered SCAR simply wasn’t worth the headaches."

<Video in Link>


Complaints:
7.62 nato is heavy. Duh.
Standard optic utilising full range of gun is inconvenient for cqb. Duh.
Shoots steel case ammunition. Talks about feed failures. Duh.

Reciprocating handle is a genuine complaint though.

Prasad
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7391
Joined: 16 Nov 2007 00:53
Location: Chennai

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Prasad » 05 Sep 2019 20:03

Perspective - From Tonbo

-Watch from 4:45


Thakur_B
BRFite
Posts: 1462
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Thakur_B » 05 Sep 2019 20:14

^^ Tonbo CEO had the balls to call out IA's GSQR with actual product comparison of what IA sqr calls and he is able to offer.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18669
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 05 Sep 2019 20:30

I hope he isnt victimized. Some guys have real fragile egos.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 53478
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 06 Sep 2019 00:16

Thakur, Who makes the 40mm grenades for the OFB made UBGL and the multiple shot launcher?
Its a 40x 46mm round.

Looks like the AGL-17 launcher and rounds are from Russia.

Thakur_B
BRFite
Posts: 1462
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Thakur_B » 06 Sep 2019 10:33

ramana wrote:Thakur, Who makes the 40mm grenades for the OFB made UBGL and the multiple shot launcher?
Its a 40x 46mm round.

Looks like the AGL-17 launcher and rounds are from Russia.


I remember seeing ofb product listing fir HE and chalk round but it is not listed on OFB site. 40mm grenades were supposed to be manufactured by private sector as per the last RFI for ammunition.

tsarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2823
Joined: 08 May 2006 13:44
Location: mumbai

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby tsarkar » 06 Sep 2019 12:20

Thakur_B wrote:
rkhanna wrote:Why the Navy Seals Rejected the SCAR-H

https://thenewsrep.com/118625/former-na ... com-rifle/

"Reid goes into detail about his experiences on deployment with the SCAR and how he (as well as many other SEALs) suffered through repeated malfunctions until he finally decided to switch back to the M4 despite often finding himself in 1,000 meter engagements. In his mind, the added range and accuracy of the 7.62 chambered SCAR simply wasn’t worth the headaches."

<Video in Link>


Complaints:
7.62 nato is heavy. Duh.
Standard optic utilising full range of gun is inconvenient for cqb. Duh.
Shoots steel case ammunition. Talks about feed failures. Duh.

Reciprocating handle is a genuine complaint though.


One needs to chose weapons as per situation. For house to house search in J&K, AK-47 is appropriate. For battle in the deserts of Rajasthan, SLR is appropriate. Not choosing the weapon appropriately and blaming the weapon reflects poorly on the operator.

Thakur_B
BRFite
Posts: 1462
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Thakur_B » 06 Sep 2019 15:05

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/201 ... e-the-arad

IWI introduces ARAD rifle. Just in time for IA carbine RFP.

Gyan
BRFite
Posts: 1249
Joined: 26 Aug 2016 19:14

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Gyan » 07 Sep 2019 10:57

Thakur_B wrote:^^ Which brings us back to the conclusion that there are currently no helmets that meet or exceed NIJ level III protection. The best commercially available, non weight prohibitive level of protection available is level IIIA which is what the helmets being procured meet.



Jugaad

https://twitter.com/jaywankhadejrw/stat ... 88896?s=19

Picklu
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2028
Joined: 25 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Picklu » 07 Sep 2019 23:43

ashishvikas wrote:
Thakur_B wrote:Image

Remote weapon station Sharang by L&T.


L&T Displays New SHARANG RWS – Asian Aerospace latest industry news & Asia Defence Technology trends

https://www.asiatrade.com.au/lt-display ... gy-trends/


Larsen & Toubro Defence is displaying a
new Remote Weapon System (RWS) at the ongoing IMDEX, as it seeks to make a
greater mark in the export market for defence equipment. The new SHARANG
compact RWS has been developed for land based military vehicles, but is being
displayed at IMDEX as the company seeks to bring about a greater awareness of
its military portfolio.

“L&T developed the SHARANG weapon mount
with the vision of filling in a perceived gap for a cost-effective weapon
mount. It is cost effective solution for land systems,” a company official
tells Daily News.

The indigenously designed and developed
weapon system does not use an export restricted parts of systems.

The SHARANG RWS supports 5.56mm and 7.62
PKT machine guns and this modular system is configurable and can be installed in different
configurations on tracked and wheeled Infantry Combat Vehicles (ICV); Armoured
Personnel Carriers (APCs), mine resistant vehicles and 4X4s.

It can also be deployed in static
installations like bunkers.


Extremely good development. One of my perennial grouse against DRDO/OFB combine was that their prototypes used to have look&feel of half finished junk because of improper fit and finish during development phase.

Recently there have been marked improvement to that both in govt (prahar/pralay launcher/truck mounted dhanush) as well as private (tata kestrel/this RWS kit) orgs. The demo equipments are coming up with "ready to induct" look and feel.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18669
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 08 Sep 2019 01:41

That problem has always been there with OFB gear, and still persists. BEL made gear, ECIL, Brahmos..all have a much better standard. OFB issues are not going to disappear without huge overhaul of entire workforce structure and investment in infra.


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Avinandan, Kartik, Vamsee and 30 guests