Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19453
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 25 Mar 2020 15:49

ramana wrote:It looks like modernised Bren with belt feed and auto selector.

Wish ARDE had tried to upgrade the BREN over the many decades and IA had some officers with vision.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRMHDqe_k5Y


nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7558
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby nachiket » 25 Mar 2020 23:16

Karan M wrote:
ramana wrote:It looks like modernised Bren with belt feed and auto selector.

Wish ARDE had tried to upgrade the BREN over the many decades and IA had some officers with vision.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRMHDqe_k5Y

That looks more like a modernized FN-MAG than a modernized Bren.....which brings me to the question, is the Negev supposed to replace the FN-MAG in service as well as the Bren?

Gyan
BRFite
Posts: 1425
Joined: 26 Aug 2016 19:14

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Gyan » 26 Mar 2020 00:43

nachiket wrote:

That looks more like a modernized FN-MAG than a modernized Bren.....which brings me to the question, is the Negev supposed to replace the FN-MAG in service as well as the Bren?


If Negev is going to fulfill the role of LMG then it will replace or supplement INSAS LMG.

A tripod mounted FNMAG is a GPMG & is a different category of beast. Also I think Army only has around 5,000 FNMAGs in Infantry.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54275
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 26 Mar 2020 02:23




This is great news. Glad that two orders were given. Need a steady set of orders to keep the flow going.

ks_sachin
BRFite
Posts: 1075
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby ks_sachin » 26 Mar 2020 04:58

Gyan wrote:
nachiket wrote:That looks more like a modernized FN-MAG than a modernized Bren.....which brings me to the question, is the Negev supposed to replace the FN-MAG in service as well as the Bren?


If Negev is going to fulfill the role of LMG then it will replace or supplement INSAS LMG.

A tripod mounted FNMAG is a GPMG & is a different category of beast. Also I think Army only has around 5,000 FNMAGs in Infantry.


Negev will replace the LMG and is a section level weapon.

The FN-MAG is the MMG as we call it and is a dedicated support weapon in the inf batallion. Difficult to cart around.

Different roles and MMG will not go away.

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7558
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby nachiket » 26 Mar 2020 05:19

ks_sachin wrote:The FN-MAG is the MMG as we call it and is a dedicated support weapon in the inf batallion. Difficult to cart around.

Does that mean the MAG is allocated at battalion level (1 per battalion)? That sounds very low. Or is it Company level?

ks_sachin
BRFite
Posts: 1075
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby ks_sachin » 26 Mar 2020 05:34

nachiket wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:The FN-MAG is the MMG as we call it and is a dedicated support weapon in the inf batallion. Difficult to cart around.

Does that mean the MAG is allocated at battalion level (1 per battalion)? That sounds very low. Or is it Company level?


The MMG is generally a support weapon. There is an MMG platoon much like a mortar platoon. Once upon a time, these were part of the Admin company and operationally deployed as and when required. I forget the holding per Inf bn.

Things may have changed.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54275
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 26 Mar 2020 06:08

nachiket wrote:

That looks more like a modernized FN-MAG than a modernized Bren.....which brings me to the question, is the Negev supposed to replace the FN-MAG in service as well as the Bren?



You are right. I read the chronology and we can see the design evolution.

So what happened to the OFB designed LMG that Sandeep wrote about in 2017?

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54275
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 26 Mar 2020 06:11

ks_Sachin the BR pages have the TOE for Infantry battalion.

Our old NCC book used to detail it.

I wish we had real ex-military still with us!
But they leave in a huff at first instance.

ks_sachin
BRFite
Posts: 1075
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby ks_sachin » 26 Mar 2020 06:36

ramana wrote:ks_Sachin the BR pages have the TOE for Infantry battalion.

Our old NCC book used to detail it.

I wish we had real ex-military still with us!
But they leave in a huff at first instance.



Ramana I was discussing the Negev with my dad who is an infantryman. Happy to field any specific questions.

Ramana are you surprised that the ex-military leave....I tear my hair out sometimes!!!!

ks_sachin
BRFite
Posts: 1075
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby ks_sachin » 26 Mar 2020 06:38

ks_sachin wrote:
ramana wrote:ks_Sachin the BR pages have the TOE for Infantry battalion.

Our old NCC book used to detail it.

I wish we had real ex-military still with us!
But they leave in a huff at first instance.



Ramana I was discussing the Negev with my dad who is an infantryman. Happy to field any specific questions.

The MMG cannot be converted into an LMG. The OFB is struggling with weight reduction.

Ramana are you surprised that the ex-military leave....I tear my hair out sometimes!!!!

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7558
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby nachiket » 26 Mar 2020 06:44

ks_sachin wrote:Ramana I was discussing the Negev with my dad who is an infantryman. Happy to field any specific questions.

Any chance of him joining here?

ks_sachin
BRFite
Posts: 1075
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby ks_sachin » 26 Mar 2020 08:45

nachiket wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:Ramana I was discussing the Negev with my dad who is an infantryman. Happy to field any specific questions.

Any chance of him joining here?


He is too busy doing yoga and playing golf.....

But if there are specific questions around things .....

ks_sachin
BRFite
Posts: 1075
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby ks_sachin » 26 Mar 2020 10:16

ramana wrote:I wish we had real ex-military still with us!
But they leave in a huff at first instance.

Ramana garu I wonder why that is......

Manish_P
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2281
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 17:34

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Manish_P » 26 Mar 2020 10:34

Actually I honestly wonder about it. Reason being the Mil folk on Twitter do face quite a few idiotic, self-entitled, opionated and at times abusive trolls, with lots of calm & cool.

It can't be because the expectations are different.. since the BRF forums are also social media to an extent, or are they?

ks_sachin
BRFite
Posts: 1075
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby ks_sachin » 26 Mar 2020 10:55

Manish_P wrote:Actually I honestly wonder about it. Reason being the Mil folk on Twitter do face quite a few idiotic, self-entitled, opionated and at times abusive trolls, with lots of calm & cool.

It can't be because the expectations are different.. since the BRF forums are also social media to an extent or are they?


Mil folks on twitter are there because they want to be there so will tolerate some of the nonsense.

Mil folks on BRF are for other considerations - one of which being to share what knowledge they can. But then that also makes them a little more intolerant to the lack of reading and research before spouting opinions or questions...

Nair Sir and Deejay sir and a few others are exceptions....

Gyan
BRFite
Posts: 1425
Joined: 26 Aug 2016 19:14

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Gyan » 26 Mar 2020 13:43

I think FNMAG is issued as MMG or GPMG at rate of 4 per Company. OFB has been unable to ramp up production and is stuck around 500 per Annum for many years.

Military wanted to try 12.7 NSV also in various roles but OFB has been unable to deliver.

Bren was issued one per section, INSAS LMG was also intended to be issued 1 per Section & Similarly Negev Will also be issued as 1 per section. After 16,000+8,000 the balance numbers may be made up with more imports or some sort of indigenous manufacturing

ks_sachin
BRFite
Posts: 1075
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby ks_sachin » 26 Mar 2020 13:53

Gyan wrote:I think FNMAG is issued as MMG or GPMG at rate of 4 per Company. OFB has been unable to ramp up production and is stuck around 500 per Annum for many years.

Military wanted to try 12.7 NSV also in various roles but OFB has been unable to deliver.

Bren was issued one per section, INSAS LMG was also intended to be issued 1 per Section & Similarly Negev Will also be issued as 1 per section. After 16,000+8,000 the balance numbers may be made up with more imports or some sort of indigenous manufacturing


Wrong..

The FNMag I have seen since I was in my diapers...that was a while ago. It is a bn HQ holding.

LMG is more than I per section.

The HMG is not a regular inf bn issue.

Thakur_B
BRFite
Posts: 1614
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Thakur_B » 26 Mar 2020 16:09

Manish_P wrote:^ Thakur ji, what do you think about the Knights Light Assault Machine Gun?


Similar to ultimax. They share design DNA with common designer.

Bart S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2372
Joined: 15 Aug 2016 00:03

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Bart S » 26 Mar 2020 17:36

ks_sachin wrote:
ramana wrote:I wish we had real ex-military still with us!
But they leave in a huff at first instance.

Ramana garu I wonder why that is......


Too many political opinions/whines/rants by some here, often completely OT, probably making them uncomfortable. Also, over the top, blanket criticism of forces regarding procurement etc, by a small but vocal minority of people.

Kakkaji
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3276
Joined: 23 Oct 2002 11:31

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Kakkaji » 26 Mar 2020 19:58

Bart S wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:Ramana garu I wonder why that is......


Too many political opinions/whines/rants by some here, often completely OT, probably making them uncomfortable. Also, over the top, blanket criticism of forces regarding procurement etc, by a small but vocal minority of people.


Can we give any ex-mil persons who join a special 'Advisor' ranking, and then instantly ban any member who makes abusive/ disrespective posts concerning them?

Even the late Brig RayC left once in a huff, being tired of the posts that were being made. :(

Mil people are used to discipline. They expect a 'special interest' forum like ours to be similarly disciplined, unlike the run-of-the-mill social media.

JM2c

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54275
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 26 Mar 2020 20:33

All good feedback. Brig RayC did not leave in a huff but the parting was mutual. He kept on email till the end.
And once he invited a member to Kolkata Club for dinner and introduced him to SHQ.

I see a dichotomy here. Mil folks on twitter can block those whom they don't want to read.
We don't have such a feature in a forum.
It is nice to have them but even Admin status was tried.

In end depends on if they see value here or not.

Sachin ask for TOE of an inf battalion. We need to update that and post in Army thread.
And pranam to your dad.

Manish_P
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2281
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 17:34

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Manish_P » 26 Mar 2020 22:02

Thakur_B wrote:
Manish_P wrote:^ Thakur ji, what do you think about the Knights Light Assault Machine Gun?


Similar to ultimax. They share design DNA with common designer.


Ah that might account for it then. Thanks.
Was/is Ultimax available in 7.62 version?

The Knight LAMG (not sure but I think it's name has changed now) covers both versions. Some reports that they might see use in some elements of the US military. Who knows might even come to desh, as part of a package deal with some other system :wink:

Manish_P
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2281
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 17:34

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Manish_P » 26 Mar 2020 22:16

ramana wrote:All good feedback

I see a dichotomy here. Mil folks on twitter can block those whom they don't want to read.
We don't have such a feature in a forum.



A query. Not really with relation to Services folk as such..

Is it possible to have a thread with write properties only assigned to users chosen by moderators. Others can only read the posts.

Had asked on the previous version of these forums and was told it was not possible on that version but might be explored in the future.

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7558
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby nachiket » 26 Mar 2020 23:05

ramana wrote:All good feedback

I see a dichotomy here. Mil folks on twitter can block those whom they don't want to read.
We don't have such a feature in a forum.


We do have a way to block posters. Only moderators don't have that option.

ks_sachin
BRFite
Posts: 1075
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby ks_sachin » 02 Apr 2020 11:27

Is it possible to create a separate space where we invite ex-servicemen and shield them from the more uninformed posts?
Lots of ex-servicemen with time on their hands who I can tap...
Or better still lets make a list of questions that I can pose.

-

VinodTK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2323
Joined: 18 Jun 2000 11:31

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby VinodTK » 02 Apr 2020 18:47

ks_sachin wrote:Is it possible to create a separate space where we invite ex-servicemen and shield them from the more uninformed posts?
Lots of ex-servicemen with time on their hands who I can tap...
Or better still lets make a list of questions that I can pose.

-

A separate forum for ex-service men might work, with view only access to non service members. I do not know the burden on the admins to support this approch or if it is even possible to do so!!!

sajaym
BRFite
Posts: 121
Joined: 04 Feb 2019 09:11

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby sajaym » 09 Apr 2020 15:00

Image

Looks good, I hope the troops in JK are given these with optical sights from day one.

Manish_P
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2281
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 17:34

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Manish_P » 09 Apr 2020 16:12

FN FAL mods keep surfacing from time to time. This one from DSA in .308


sudeepj
BRFite
Posts: 1808
Joined: 27 Nov 2008 11:25

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby sudeepj » 19 Apr 2020 23:04

A review of SMLE explaining the advantages of the design (as if it was needed!) :-)

Manish_P
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2281
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 17:34

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Manish_P » 20 Apr 2020 12:00

And to see the above theory in practice, this here is CRPF S N Pal :)


ks_sachin
BRFite
Posts: 1075
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby ks_sachin » 20 Apr 2020 13:22

Having spent a week or so going through small arms design and historical small arms I can safely say that even some of the WW2 weapons were better designed designed and engineered than the INSAS.
What a tragedy!!!

sudeepj
BRFite
Posts: 1808
Joined: 27 Nov 2008 11:25

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby sudeepj » 20 Apr 2020 21:02

ks_sachin wrote:Having spent a week or so going through small arms design and historical small arms I can safely say that even some of the WW2 weapons were better designed designed and engineered than the INSAS.
What a tragedy!!!


Design is a function of goals and tech/abilities.. Insas was designed with a different role in mind. What you say may be right, but that doesnt mean smle can replace Insas. For a firearms newbie, what are some bad design decisions in the INSAS? I have only heard that the design was OK, but the manufacturing was not.

Gyan
BRFite
Posts: 1425
Joined: 26 Aug 2016 19:14

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Gyan » 20 Apr 2020 21:27

INSAS was designed around the requirements of Army. Some of the design features they wanted created problems.

In any case, DRDO was well aware of problems & was seeking permission to design a new rifle since atleast 2005. This permission was obstructed by Army for many years. Later on led to development of MCIWS.

ks_sachin
BRFite
Posts: 1075
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby ks_sachin » 20 Apr 2020 21:47

sudeepj wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:Having spent a week or so going through small arms design and historical small arms I can safely say that even some of the WW2 weapons were better designed designed and engineered than the INSAS.
What a tragedy!!!


Design is a function of goals and tech/abilities.. Insas was designed with a different role in mind. What you say may be right, but that doesnt mean smle can replace Insas. For a firearms newbie, what are some bad design decisions in the INSAS? I have only heard that the design was OK, but the manufacturing was not.



I know what role it was intended. The design should also aid ease of manufacture...
A missed opportunity.
Please read up on small arms design.

ks_sachin
BRFite
Posts: 1075
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby ks_sachin » 20 Apr 2020 22:00

Gyan wrote:INSAS was designed around the requirements of Army. Some of the design features they wanted created problems.

In any case, DRDO was well aware of problems & was seeking permission to design a new rifle since atleast 2005. This permission was obstructed by Army for many years. Later on led to development of MCIWS.


Like what?
What required design features forced ARDE to come up with the design Gun it did.
As far as I am aware army specified performance and dimension requirements!!
Please spend time researching small arms design as you did delta wings. It’s a whole lot more interesting and also give you new perspective on things..

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11857
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 20 Apr 2020 22:05

I think the problem with Insas is the 5.56*45 ammo , it came about due to bad experience with FN 7.62*51 in the jungles so SL. But due to lesser stopping power not suitable for COIN. Like we are doing today we should have gone for 7.62*39 AK series for COIN and 7.62×51 rifles for more open areas. Similarly we should get rid of submachine guns with 9mm pistol round.

ks_sachin
BRFite
Posts: 1075
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby ks_sachin » 20 Apr 2020 22:07

Suedes and Gyanhave you seen the video of the JVPC firing and the stoppages.
That is a manufacturing issue but also a design issue in some ways.


Remember the Michael Kalashnikov design a weapon that was robust but could be easily manufactured war time Russia with no Fancy machines.
Last edited by ks_sachin on 20 Apr 2020 22:14, edited 1 time in total.

ks_sachin
BRFite
Posts: 1075
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby ks_sachin » 20 Apr 2020 22:12

Aditya_V wrote:I think the problem with Insas is the 5.56*45 ammo , it came about due to bad experience with FN 7.62*51 in the jungles so SL. But due to lesser stopping power not suitable for COIN. Like we are doing today we should have gone for 7.62*39 AK series for COIN and 7.62×51 rifles for more open areas. Similarly we should get rid of submachine guns with 9mm pistol round.

When I talk of design I don’t consider ammo etc.
Fundamentally regardless of ammo was the design sound.

Then comes the question of whether the design is sound for intended use.

Then comes the question of operational doctrines which then encompasses choice of caliber etc to which the design must address.


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: brar_w and 28 guests