Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

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Gyan
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Gyan » 20 Apr 2020 22:39

I have done considerable reading on Small Arms and also talked to DRDO people who were/are involved in the design. Army was heavily involved in micro managing the requirements & design of INSAS series.

Today Army is buying a DI rifle while talking about reliability. The deep involvement of import Dalal mafia in Small Arms, is so well known that there were series of India Today Articles on important Dalals.

Anyhow, Army knows best. How can We question them?

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby nachiket » 21 Apr 2020 00:01

Aditya_V wrote:I think the problem with Insas is the 5.56*45 ammo , it came about due to bad experience with FN 7.62*51 in the jungles so SL. But due to lesser stopping power not suitable for COIN. Like we are doing today we should have gone for 7.62*39 AK series for COIN and 7.62×51 rifles for more open areas. Similarly we should get rid of submachine guns with 9mm pistol round.

On the one hand we say that 5.56mm is not powerful enough and this is reflected in the new orders for the SIG-716 and AK's while the Paras are happily using the 5.56mm TAR-21's for the same COIN ops.

I have never understood this dichotomy.

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby nachiket » 21 Apr 2020 00:07

Gyan wrote:I have done considerable reading on Small Arms and also talked to DRDO people who were/are involved in the design. Army was heavily involved in micro managing the requirements & design of INSAS series.

Today Army is buying a DI rifle while talking about reliability. The deep involvement of import Dalal mafia in Small Arms, is so well known that there were series of India Today Articles on important Dalals.

Anyhow, Army knows best. How can We question them?

Can you post those articles about Dalal's in Small Arms deals. You cannot make serious accusations against the Army about corruption without even a news article to back it up. Post the articles which back up your accusation or get a warning.

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby nachiket » 21 Apr 2020 00:14

ks_sachin wrote:When I talk of design I don’t consider ammo etc.
Fundamentally regardless of ammo was the design sound.

Then comes the question of whether the design is sound for intended use.

Then comes the question of operational doctrines which then encompasses choice of caliber etc to which the design must address.

Sachin saar can you post in details about the Design flaws of the original INSAS and the newer Excalibur etc. models? The production issues get discussed a lot, the design issues not so much.

Of all the problems in our domestic defence industry, none sadden me more than the state of small arms manufacturing. We once lost our entire country to the British in no small part due to our weakness in firearms and artillery and total dependence on foreign suppliers for whatever we did have. We don't seem to have learned any lessons from it. In fact, while things seem to be improving across the board as far as indigenous capability is concerned from radar's and missiles, aircraft, helicopters and even artillery now, we seem to be inexplicably moving backwards when it comes to small arms.

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby sudeepj » 21 Apr 2020 00:51

Second the req to point out the design flaws of Insas. Too hard to manufacture can be a design flaw.. But its a very general high level point that doesnt point out what is the issue in the design making it hard to manufacture.



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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Gyan » 21 Apr 2020 01:16

https://m.economictimes.com/news/defenc ... 741876.cms

Before it was blacklisted, STK was in the running for contracts to supply light ... small arms ....., while Rheinmetall was vying for air defence and land system deals

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby ks_sachin » 21 Apr 2020 06:22

Gyan wrote:I have done considerable reading on Small Arms and also talked to DRDO people who were/are involved in the design. Army was heavily involved in micro managing the requirements & design of INSAS series.

Today Army is buying a DI rifle while talking about reliability. The deep involvement of import Dalal mafia in Small Arms, is so well known that there were series of India Today Articles on important Dalals.

Anyhow, Army knows best. How can We question them?


I think not. I have spoken as well...

Requirements yes - that is what is in the GSQR.

Design - not so much

IF you have read about small arms design then I don't expect every talk of small arms to go into dalal territory - rather I expect a factual analysis of design choices.

Remember I don't care if it is 5.56 or 7.62 or whether the army supported it or whether the small arms fairy cursed ARDE!!!!! I am interested in the design choices - period.

If you have spoken to "chai-wallah" them please ask then please ask why trigger assembly was designed the way it was. What was the concern over the lower receiver that drove that design choice?
Why did we go for a non-reciprocating bolt when there is a clear AK lineage.
Ask then why the latch to the top cover on the rear receiver was designed the way it was?
These are just a few design choices I cannot figure out.

THE REASONS THAT THEY GIVE MAY BE COMPLETELY JUSTIFIED BUT I FEEL THEY COULD HAVE DONE BETTER.

Everyone also talks about manufacturing so please also ask them about what specs they gave to the OFB for the tolerances on the individual parts....
AS a designer surely they had a role in ensuring that the final product delivers to specs.


The presence or absence of dalals has no bearing on the basic design of this rifle. Why these design choices?

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby ks_sachin » 21 Apr 2020 06:51

nachiket wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:When I talk of design I don’t consider ammo etc.
Fundamentally regardless of ammo was the design sound.

Then comes the question of whether the design is sound for intended use.

Then comes the question of operational doctrines which then encompasses choice of caliber etc to which the design must address.

Sachin saar can you post in details about the Design flaws of the original INSAS and the newer Excalibur etc. models? The production issues get discussed a lot, the design issues not so much.

Of all the problems in our domestic defence industry, none sadden me more than the state of small arms manufacturing. We once lost our entire country to the British in no small part due to our weakness in firearms and artillery and total dependence on foreign suppliers for whatever we did have. We don't seem to have learned any lessons from it. In fact, while things seem to be improving across the board as far as indigenous capability is concerned from radar's and missiles, aircraft, helicopters and even artillery now, we seem to be inexplicably moving backwards when it comes to small arms.



I agree saar...I will put some time aside....

In the meanwhile please read this...

https://hackaday.com/2020/02/03/stinger ... -iwo-jima/

I refuse to believe that we cannot design small arms well. It is a lack of will. But the above talks about the interaction of requirements, design choices and common sense.

Meanwhile on this forum everything dissolves into conspiracy theories and half baked commentary.....

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby souravB » 21 Apr 2020 14:20

Re-upping an older post of mine about INSAS. Not so much about the rifle deficiency but about the bullet that came with it.

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby ks_sachin » 27 Apr 2020 05:27

Hi Guys,

Is this a picture of the IC?

http://i.imgur.com/CHxJvNt.jpg

Regards

S

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby ks_sachin » 27 Apr 2020 19:13

Does anyone have the INSAS GSQR’s as they were first published in 1982?

I have the GSQR number if that is of some help...

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Manish_Sharma » 04 Jun 2020 14:36

https://m.economictimes.com/news/defenc ... ssion=true

Amethi AK-203 factory unlikely to start operations in 2020

As per the plan, the OFB-Kalashnikov joint venture (JV) was to arrive at a fair price for setting up and producing almost seven lakh rifles by May-end. This decision was crucial as official plans were in place to commence work at the factory by th...

By Manu Pubby, ET Bureau | Updated: Jun 04, 2020, 11.27 AM IST

NEW DELHI: The Indo-Russian plan to make assault rifles in Amethi has missed another key milestone over differences in pricing and the travel ban imposed due to the Covid-19 pandemic, making it highly unlikely for the factory to start operations this year.

As per the plan, the OFB-Kalashnikov joint venture(JV) was to arrive at a fair price for setting up and producing almost seven lakh rifles by May-end. This decision was crucial as official plans were in place to commence work at the factory by this year-end.

However, sources said that the project has hit a roadblock now and with a resolution unlikely soon, the factory is not expected to start operations this year. A fresh price bid was to be submitted but commercial terms could not be agreed upon, given the complex nature of the project that involves complete transfer of technology and building the rifles completely in India for the armed forces as well as possible exports in the future.

Besides its political significance, the factory is expected to generate at least 200 new jobs, including those of specialists and would be geared to produce over 70,000 AK 203 rifles annually. It is also expected to foster a larger ecosystem of suppliers as several components are to be outsourced to MSMEs in Uttar Pradesh as part of the Defence corridor plan.

While negotiations are to continue, there are examples of Indo-Russian collaborative projects that have failed to take off even after agreements were signed at the highest levels. The plan to jointly develop a fifth generation fighter aircraft, for example, was shelved after years of work after the Air Force did not give a go ahead. Similarly, discussions have been on for five years to set up a factory to produce Kamov KA 226T light utility helicopters in India but the project has not moved to the contract signing stage.

The OFB is itself going through a churn after the government announced that it would be restructured and corporatised in the coming months, as part of a larger set of reforms for the defence manufacturing sector.

The stalemate is symptomatic of the larger issue that plagues Make in India –– the setting up of new weapons facilities is cost intensive, pushing up the cost of domestically manufactured arms and making them more expensive than direct imports. However, these costs can be brought down in the long run by mass production and pursuing export opportunities.

The order to manufacture a record 670,00 Kalashnikov AK 203 rifles for the Indian Army has been under discussions for over a year now. The joint project is a high priority for both nations, with Prime Minister Modi and President Vladimir Putin known to have taken a personal initiative to take it ahead at the earliest.

The number is likely to increase to at least 750,000 later as requirements of other forces are added to the order. According to the plan, complete transfer of technology of all components will be achieved during the early stage of production. These rifles will replace the INSAS assault rifles currently in service.

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby mody » 04 Jun 2020 18:09

Since we already make equivalent of older Kalashnikov models like Trichy Assault Rifle (TAR), why can't we copy the AK-203 and manufacture our copy of the same as well. The basic principle should be same. We also add options like Picatinny rails, UBGs, different types of sights etc.

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby MeshaVishwas » 04 Jun 2020 18:13

I feel that we can employ consultants to refine the Insas 7.62 and mass produce it. This AK saga for me is like the Jaguar screwing the Marut.

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Vips » 04 Jun 2020 18:40

Manish_Sharma wrote:https://m.economictimes.com/news/defence/amethi-ak-203-factory-unlikely-to-start-operations-in-2020/amp_articleshow/76183802.cms?utm_source=twitter_pwa&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=socialsharebuttons&__twitter_impression=true

Amethi AK-203 factory unlikely to start operations in 2020




Blessing in disguise. I hope the deadlock remains and this deal suffers the same fate as the FGFA and Kamov light helicopters. It is a shame that the most basic armament that Indian armed forces will carry for the next 20-30 years is foreign designed.

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby ks_sachin » 04 Jun 2020 18:44

MeshaVishwas wrote:I feel that we can employ consultants to refine the Insas 7.62 and mass produce it. This AK saga for me is like the Jaguar screwing the Marut.

7.62????
Any consultant would say might as well redesign a new rifle.
The problem though was not just the design...

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby ks_sachin » 04 Jun 2020 18:47

mody wrote:Since we already make equivalent of older Kalashnikov models like Trichy Assault Rifle (TAR), why can't we copy the AK-203 and manufacture our copy of the same as well. The basic principle should be same. We also add options like Picatinny rails, UBGs, different types of sights etc.

Modyji the TAR is a copy of the Bulgarian Ak derivative.

Remember all ak derivatives except the Valmet or Galil were skill deep mods to the ak.

You want to copy and refine an ak design go that way

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 04 Jun 2020 21:26

What about the SSS rifles? Why not accelerate their testing?

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby abhik » 05 Jun 2020 03:11

Just ask the Russians to sod it and have a tender for design from Private/Public sector - There are multiple private companies that displayed assault rifles this defence expo (apart from SSS), OFBs also have their own designs. Of course manufacturing, in part or whole, will have to happen in Amethi due to political reasons.

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby MeshaVishwas » 05 Jun 2020 03:50

ks_sachin wrote:
MeshaVishwas wrote:I feel that we can employ consultants to refine the Insas 7.62 and mass produce it. This AK saga for me is like the Jaguar screwing the Marut.

7.62????
Any consultant would say might as well redesign a new rifle.
The problem though was not just the design...

I am all in, even if it is a brand new rifle from the ground up with zero Insas genes. But, I still want the name to live on.

I genuinely feel that we owe it to the original ARDE team who gave a good rifle design.

Production side, with the OFB corporatisation green flagged, I think this may give them a good chance to step up and deliver.

Maybe in parallel, the MCIWS complying to the moronic gsqr can be realised.

Edit: I spoke too soon about OFB
https://www.theweek.in/news/biz-tech/20 ... n.amp.html

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby ks_sachin » 05 Jun 2020 04:42

MeshaVishwas wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:7.62????
Any consultant would say might as well redesign a new rifle.
The problem though was not just the design...

I am all in, even if it is a brand new rifle from the ground up with zero Insas genes. But, I still want the name to live on.

I genuinely feel that we owe it to the original ARDE team who gave a good rifle design.

Production side, with the OFB corporatisation green flagged, I think this may give them a good chance to step up and deliver.

Maybe in parallel, the MCIWS complying to the moronic gsqr can be realised.

Edit: I spoke too soon about OFB
https://www.theweek.in/news/biz-tech/20 ... n.amp.html


Who told you ARDE gave a good design?

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 05 Jun 2020 06:55

Sachin!

Generally, a design is made to requirements and then produced. During that phase, many issues crop up.
And usually its a team process to refine the design.
AIl, I see a stand Oaf attitude hampering the whole process.

One thing needs to be clear you ain't getting an imported rifle.
Kalashnikov was given the order and see the mess.
So with that constraint what's the plan?
Also, this seeking 7.62x39 mm is a fool's errand as Kashmir terrorism will wane.
The whole reason this cartridge was chosen is the terrorists had that weapon and INSAS thanks to its lineage won't kill them dead.
OFB makes good 7.62x51 NATO cartridge and the plan should be to use that.
Don't get started on fancy 6.8 and other blue-sky projects of Europeans.

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby MeshaVishwas » 05 Jun 2020 07:33

^^
+1 Saar

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby ks_sachin » 05 Jun 2020 08:47

ramana wrote:Sachin!

Generally, a design is made to requirements and then produced. During that phase, many issues crop up.
And usually its a team process to refine the design.
AIl, I see a stand Oaf attitude hampering the whole process.

One thing needs to be clear you ain't getting an imported rifle.
Kalashnikov was given the order and see the mess.
So with that constraint what's the plan?
Also, this seeking 7.62x39 mm is a fool's errand as Kashmir terrorism will wane.
The whole reason this cartridge was chosen is the terrorists had that weapon and INSAS thanks to its lineage won't kill them dead.
OFB makes good 7.62x51 NATO cartridge and the plan should be to use that.
Don't get started on fancy 6.8 and other blue-sky projects of Europeans.

Saar have you to tell me this.

I am offended now it seems you have not read my posts in this thread!!! :| :| :|

That question around the soundness of the design was more to promote some reading by the poster..

I stand by my assertion though that design choices were suspect and allied to poor manufacturing as well as the desire for cheap cost us lives...

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby ks_sachin » 05 Jun 2020 10:27

ks_sachin wrote:
ramana wrote:Sachin!

Generally, a design is made to requirements and then produced. During that phase, many issues crop up.
And usually its a team process to refine the design.
AIl, I see a stand Oaf attitude hampering the whole process.

One thing needs to be clear you ain't getting an imported rifle.
Kalashnikov was given the order and see the mess.
So with that constraint what's the plan?
Also, this seeking 7.62x39 mm is a fool's errand as Kashmir terrorism will wane.
The whole reason this cartridge was chosen is the terrorists had that weapon and INSAS thanks to its lineage won't kill them dead.
OFB makes good 7.62x51 NATO cartridge and the plan should be to use that.
Don't get started on fancy 6.8 and other blue-sky projects of Europeans.

Saar have you to tell me this.

I am offended now it seems you have not read my posts in this thread!!! :| :| :|

That question around the soundness of the design was more to promote some reading by the poster..

I stand by my assertion though that design choices were suspect and allied to poor manufacturing as well as the desire for cheap cost us

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby TushS » 05 Jun 2020 10:43

MeshaVishwas wrote:
Edit: I spoke too soon about OFB
https://www.theweek.in/news/biz-tech/20 ... n.amp.html


And even at this time of border crises, if OFB employees choose to go on strike, govt should rethink before putting all it's eggs in one basket. This is the time when pvt sectors must jump in to cash in the opportunity and come in good books of govt. Govt and IA can rely on pvt sector manufacturing for atleast low tech ground system.

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 05 Jun 2020 13:07

The OFB union is affiliated to both Congress and CPM parties. So strike could be to give support to China at this time.

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Vips » 05 Jun 2020 17:14

If only India was in a position to use the OFB strike as an excuse, shut these under-performing leeches and do wholesale privatization. The Congress and CPM Union scums are using a flimsy excuse to avoid performance accountability and want to lord over.

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby ParGha » 05 Jun 2020 17:39

Please read the article — even the Bharatiya Pratirakshak Mazdoor Sangh, an RSS affiliate, has signed the call for the strike.

Frankly, I don’t know what is the right way to do this. If you do it quietly, then there is risk of corruption. If you do it openly, then there is risk of protests, strikes and delays. The Germans handled it well in 1991, so there are more lessons to learn from there than Stalinist-style accusations.

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Manish_P » 05 Jun 2020 19:22

Can ESMA not be invoked against the strike?

The Essential Services Maintenance Act, 1968

THE ESSENTIAL SERVICES MAINTENANCE ACT, 1968

ACT NO. 59 OF 1968 [ 28th December, 1968 1

An Act to provide for the maintenance of certain essential services and the normal life of the community.

...
(Includes:- )

(1) Definitions. In this Act,-
(a) " essential service" means-

...

(vii) any service in any defence establishment of the Government of India;

....



Although the penalties could have been more severe

4. Penalty for illegal strikes. Any person who commences a strike which is illegal under this Act or goes or remains on, or otherwise takes part in, any such strike shall be punishable with imprisonment for a term which may extend to six months, or with fine which may extend to two hundred rupees, or with both.
5. Penalty for instigation, etc. Any person who instigates, or incites other persons to take part in, or otherwise acts in furtherance of, a strike which is illegal under this Act shall be punishable with imprisonment for a term which may extend to one year, or with fine which may extend to one thousand rupees, or with both.
6. Penalty for giving financial aid to illegal strikes. Any person who knowingly expends or supplies any money in furtherance or support of a strike which is illegal under this Act shall be punishable with imprisonment for a term which may extend to one- year, or with fine which may extend to one thousand rupees, or with both.

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby mody » 06 Jun 2020 14:36

ks_sachin wrote:
mody wrote:Since we already make equivalent of older Kalashnikov models like Trichy Assault Rifle (TAR), why can't we copy the AK-203 and manufacture our copy of the same as well. The basic principle should be same. We also add options like Picatinny rails, UBGs, different types of sights etc.

Modyji the TAR is a copy of the Bulgarian Ak derivative.

Remember all ak derivatives except the Valmet or Galil were skill deep mods to the ak.

You want to copy and refine an ak design go that way


I am no fan of the AK 203 for the regular army. My only contention is that if Ak-203 is what the army wants, why do we need to pay the Russians for it.
The TAR maybe a copy of the Bulgarian AK, but the basic working of the rifle remains the same. Take a AK-203 and incorporate all the features of the same, that seem desirble in the TAR. This kind of copy/upgrade should not be too difficult.

In my opinion we should be using the 5.56x45 rounds for the China border, 7.62x51 for all regular soldiers on the paki border and 7.62x39 for all COIN ops.

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Sumair » 06 Jun 2020 21:30

Why not just standardized SIG716 for the entire army and then pick a domestic weapon for the police forces. SIG SAUER can be inducted very quickly all accross.

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Yagnasri » 07 Jun 2020 15:47

Cost may be a factor. I am sure for the volumes we need the SIG people will be willing to have production in India.

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Sumair » 07 Jun 2020 17:10

There is only about $200 difference between the cost of AK203 and SIG716. So the extra cost to say for five lakh rifels would only be 100 millions.

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby ks_sachin » 07 Jun 2020 17:24

Guys,,
Can you please go back and read this thread before posting.
Where he AK is going and the SiG and Carcal is quite clear. You may not agree but the former VCAS has also explained why..

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby mody » 07 Jun 2020 23:01

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYNIhZtQkUQ

Defence Decode: Says the ARDE MCIWS is being sent for trails. (After 4.30 minutes)

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby nachiket » 10 Jun 2020 00:58

What I don't understand is how the AK-203 was actually selected. For all previous Rifle tenders, including the ill-fated multi-calibre one there was the usual RFI-RFP-multi-vendor evaluation process followed. I do not remember that happening for the small arms deal in recent memory. The news just seemed to drop one day from nowhere that we were going to buy AK-203's.

Where were the usual news items of RFP being sent out, multiple bids submitted, followed by cold weather, hot weather and monsoon evaluations, opening of financial bids, L1 bidder getting selected etc. etc.?

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby abhik » 10 Jun 2020 02:44

nachiket wrote:What I don't understand is how the AK-203 was actually selected. For all previous Rifle tenders, including the ill-fated multi-calibre one there was the usual RFI-RFP-multi-vendor evaluation process followed. I do not remember that happening for the small arms deal in recent memory. The news just seemed to drop one day from nowhere that we were going to buy AK-203's.

Where were the usual news items of RFP being sent out, multiple bids submitted, followed by cold weather, hot weather and monsoon evaluations, opening of financial bids, L1 bidder getting selected etc. etc.?


Ha ha, I asked the same question about S-400 some time back (all trials-shials happened behind the scenes, nothing suspicious onlee as per some members :wink: ).

All the recent small arms purchases have followed the same patten:
1. Reject any OFB/DRDO prototypes singly (no comparative trials).
2. Pretend the private sector does not exist.
3. Give a massive order for full importgiri (in case of SIG, carbine and LMG) after world tour trials OR do a screwdrivergiri deal for an even more outrageous number with BFF Russia (in case of AK-203).

IMO people here spend too much time on reading brochures, GSQR, ASQR etc. and not on the more decisive political/other factors. The new OFB factory at Amethi was set up over 10 years ago - ostensibly for manufacturing carbines - even though there was enough capacity in existing OFB factories (not hard to guess why). Of course an actual functioning factory never materialised because of the usual RFI/RFP/Trials story. Cut to 2019 general elections, and someone must have come up with the bright idea to hit 2 birds with one stone - lo and behold the big man himself gets to announce the plan of a factory in pappu's constituency, which he could not get started over a decade after foundation laying.

https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/defe ... 2010-08-21

Similarly we chose to buy 2 half built Russian frigates (100% of the money goes out) with a "ToT" build of 2 new frigates in the then RM's home state thrown in to sweeten the deal. Of course why we could not build more P-17s (maybe even in some private yards) - folks are ready to give hazzar reasons (excuses really).


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